Everyone has a opinon.

I think season five was the great way for Buffy to end, even Joss once commented about it, the whole taking Buffy out of heaven thing for season six, was a general statement of "how could we deny Buffy her peace in heaven." So the right thing was her saving the world, and into heaven, great way to end the show.

Season Six never shy'd away from that, so season six was interesting in that, it admitted it, but in terms of excitment and adventure, season five was the last great season of Buffy, season six went into soap opera, and depressing to watch.

Season six actually turned me off Buffy, and made me await new episode of Angel in a hurry, it was a season I wasn't enjoying, yet I didn't miss a episode out of loyality, hoping things get better, but season six was meant to be depressing, and just went too far in my opinion, season 7 spent time reactifying mistakes of season six a bit.

Once more with feeling was a great idea, but it was one episode of a larger season, and one episode don't make a season, I say about 4-5 episodes of season six really made great viewing, rest was a waste.

But just my opinion.

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-06-16 06:55 ]

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-06-16 06:56 ]

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-06-16 06:58 ]

SeanValen | June 16, 08:53 CET

personally, i think "Buffy" episodes are like pizza - even when they are bad, they are still kinda good. I can pick something fanstastic whether it is a sharp one-liner, or a subtle glance from a character in every single episode filmed. What a loss to good TV, and thank god for DVD's!

transylvanian_concubine | June 16, 10:14 CET

I wholeheartedly agree, transylvanian_concubine. That's really why I can't say I really dislike any Buffy episode, cause even if the plot is bad, these characters are always good.

As for seasons, I think season 5 is probably my favourite, possibly tied with season 2. However, I for one don't really like the idea of having a show, centered around female empowerment and growing up, end with a 19 year old girl dying. Call me crazy.

I know it was for the greater good. I know it was a heroic act. I know I cry like a baby whenever I see The Gift, hell I cry when I hear the soundtrack from The Gift. But as an ending? I dunno, I don't think it sends quite the right message.

Chosen however, does.

While I consider season 6 possibly the weakest season, I still love that they went to that place, cause anything else would've been a disservice to.. just about everything on the show. You don't just get over being dead - and in heaven no less - in 40 minutes. Season 7 then built on a recovered Buffy and a recovered mission statement and ended on a note that I think is absolutely fantastic.

I think seasons 6 and 7, regardless what people think of them, deserve alot of credit for that. Did Buffy lose something after the fifth, or as this guy claims, the sixth season? Perhaps, looking at separate episodes, but the larger picture was as strong as ever.

And the characters were always good.

This is all my opinion and should be taken as such, of course. :)

SimonM7 | June 16, 10:34 CET

I agree on may points with this article as well as with transylvanian_concubine and Mirkan. I thought S6, while flawed was a very strong one. (Actually wrote a piece on it's defense once on a weekend with too little to do). It went places where the other seasons, let alone other shows, never even dared to go.

Many people complain of how depressing it was, because of all the sad things and the tragedies and the journeys into darkness. Which is odd, since one of the most celebrated seasons, number 2, had all those elements as well. And frankly was far more tragic and depressing on many levels. I agree overall 2 was stronger but really, both seasons were about equally dark.

I also still say some of the funniest stuff was in S6, and I never understand the complaints buffy wasn't fun anymore. (Mummy hand! Kitten poker! Randy Giles! Spike's push ups with squealing Buffy! The Musical!! Clem! Buffy flipping burgers! Vamp smelling the grease and not wanting to bite her anymore! Anya trying to get her anti-Xander wish! "Larry's gay. Larry's dead. High school's kinda over'! Etc! Etc! Come on, that was all pure gold!)

They did things no one ever does. Buffy in money troubles (yeah it happens to many people) having to flip burgers for a living. Sweet people like her actually like kinky raunchy sex, Sweet people like Willow can get drunk on power and addicted to it, ooohh who could imagine. I like it when the dark sides of good people are explored and that's what they did. Most people couldn't handle that notion, I get the impression.

I remember Sarah complaining that she didn't like it and that Buffy should 'just dust vamps and make quips' and it's one of the most baffling statements I've heard from someone working on the show. Really if that's all Buffy had ever been I'd have stopped watching a looong time ago. Great actress, but story wise I've often thanked the stars she wasn't in charge.

Were there flaws? Sure...
-Spike and Dawn's very real bond is all but dropped.
-Willow's transformation went a little too fast.
-After almost 2 seasons of seeing the 'Spuffy' thing from Spike's point of view, seeing him get more and more selfless and self-sacrificing, and one season of seeing Buffy hurt, use, abuse, and pummel Spike, we're suddenly supposed to swallow the rape scene and see him as the bad guy.
-How the rape scene was filmed is one of the weakest moments in the series. Way over the top and not nearly believable. (She could and should have thrown him off in the first 6 seconds. And why did she transform into this whiny melodramatic soap opera girl?? Also, how is this worse then how she nearly beats him to death in that alley, when all he does is trying to help her? And not only did she not have the excuse of being soulless, she never even said 'sorry' as I recall.
-Spike going for his soul. The rape scene was of course mainly a plot device to get Spike to go for his soul. Which was fine, but my problem is with the way they tried to throw us off with the 'chip' and 'bitch' remarks was amateuristic. Joss said Spike always knew he went for his soul. Fine, but then those remarks ('it's this CHIP!') made no sense whatsoever in hindsight.

There were flaws. Sure. So did the other seasons. And frankly S7 had 10 times more holes in it than 6 and even though I loved that too (Like they say, even weak Buffy is several levels above the rest of TV) I think S6 was stronger.

And the season finale was one of the best. The daring decision to actually have Buffy not really do anything was very original. Let's face it, she's in a hole in the ground fighting dirt while Giles and Xander save the day. And Giles....was the man ever cooler??? "I'd like to test that theory...." I get goosebumps every time I see those scenes, and will remain eternally grateful that I really didn't know he was going to show up.

Overall, S6 had some severe flaws, but I think they compensated for that by going further than ever before. Buffy has always been about growth and got more and more adult and mature per season. And per season they tried to do things that they hadn't done before. This was simply the next logical level and I think it's classic TV.

EdDantes | June 16, 11:02 CET

I really like season 6. I definitely don't think it should have ended with 5. While "The Gift" was a great episode and her death was really moving, there was no closure for the other characters. Not that I want a neat little package with a bow but I want to know that they will go on. And as for her pouting, she pouts every season. With the exception of season 1 and season 5 (where it happened towards the end instead) the seasons opened with self-absorbed pouting. With season 6 at least there's a strong foundation for it. I also think the interpersonal aspects were much stronger than they had been since season 3. The season definitely could have used more Giles but his absence did make for a spectacular return.

And, EdDantes, I have to disagree with you about the rape scene. I thought it was disturbingly realistic. Maybe you expected it to be more "fighty" but that's not how they often go. I agree the excuse for why she wasn't able to fend him off was a little lame, that she hurt her back fighting earlier in the day, but they do that a lot on the show, sometimes she can fall off buildings and still keep on fighting like it's nothing and sometimes a vamp can hit her and she's incapacitated. Still, I think that there were more layers to the fact that she didn't fight him off well, her emotional numbness and exhaustion kept her from summoning the strength. I'm not really pleased that it was included at all. I agree that they should have found a different plot device but as for the scene on it's own, I think it was realistic.

marmoset | June 16, 15:35 CET

I agree with the person who wrote the article. If you aren't a James Marsters fan, there is something wrong with you. ;)

twiggy | June 16, 16:32 CET

But I like the darkness! I like characters that are complex enough to be miserable, depressed and full of self-loathing. It’s real. Sure I love the ass-kickin’ and quippy goodness, but if I wanted stagnant characters there are a multitude of lesser shows to choose from.
I agree wit most of your points, EdDantes, but like marmoset, I disagree with you about the attempted rape scene. The first time I saw it, I was just wishing for it to end. It seemed to go on forever. I’ve only watched it once since and don’t care to again. And for just a ‘plot device’, it seems to have tainted the character of Spike forever. It made the scene where he and Harmony go at it on the desk on “Angel” uncomfortable to watch.
I think Spike should have disappeared with the question of whether or not we’d ever see him again be enough of a cliffhanger. It would have been powerful to discover he had a soul at the same time Buffy did in the church.
While I missed Giles too, I don’t think the characters would have grown up so much if he had been there. I know it was so ASH could spend more time with his family, but it helped push them all out of the nest.

bloodflowers | June 16, 16:50 CET

Having just finished watching season six on the DVDs I think it's a great season. I liked it during it's first run but being able to see it straight through without any interruptions showed just how great it was. I agree with most of what EdDantes says except for the pummeling of Spike and the attempted rape of Buffy. From my perspective that scene in the alley was instigated by Spike. Yes, he was trying to stop her but she was trying to do what she thought was right. He kept blocking her path, even throwing her and hitting her a couple of times. When she hit him he egged her on and encouraged her to get it all out, come on, he can take it, his idea of winning Dru back was to go and get her, tie her up and torture her so all this sympathy for Spike getting beat up is beyond my understanding. And yes, I'm not a super hero but I have suffered from severe back pain that can knock you for a loop. Doesn't matter how good everything else feels, but when your back is in pain it renders you kind of useless so I found that Buffy having a hard time fighting back was quite believable. And the difference also was that Spike kept encouraging her to hit him, to get it out, and never tried to stop her. Buffy on the other hand was begging him to stop and crying.

And from my perspective, Spike going to get his soul was done just right. Spike was constantly referring to Buffy as a bitch and in the next breath declaring he loved her so his saying "I'm going to give the bitch what she deserves" makes perfect sense to me. And even if you don't read it that way, I also think it was possible that Spike was going to get his chip removed (but he already could hurt Buffy so that to me makes less sense) but he really desired to have his soul back and the Demon gave him what he truly wanted.

When I first watched this season I did think it was too depressing but having watched it straight through without weeks in between episodes it truly made a difference and there were many great, laugh out loud moments to enjoy. This season had so many great episodes both funny and serious that I think it should be considered one of the best. But I've loved them all, even season 7, so it's hard to truly pick a best. Season 7, and I could change my mind when I see it straight through on DVDs, was the weakest with too many potential based episodes, not enough of the core Scooby group, and the turning on Buffy (which I still can't buy, Willow, Xander and Giles?!! turn on her!!??). But the ending was great and I'd much prefer Buffy speculating on a future free of such enormous responsibility then to Buffy leaping to her death to save her sister (even though that was a fantastic ending - just like the thought that Buffy's still alive, fighting the good fight).

I'm looking forward to season 7, because I'm sure getting to see it all straight through, uninterrupted may make me appreciate that season even more too. Buffy is like fine wine, just gets better with age!

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 16:56 CET

One thing I have to agree with -- the packaging was way too spoilerish, from evil Willow on the slipcover, to the quotes used throughout, all the way down to the insert for season 7 with eyepatch Xander. I know a goodly number of us purchasing the sets already know about these things happening, but what about the newbies first discovering the show on DVD?

RambleOn623 | June 16, 17:53 CET

But I like the darkness! I like characters that are complex enough to be miserable, depressed and full of self-loathing. It’s real.

I couldn't agree more bloodflowers, which is why season 6 remains my favorite season of the series. I'm introducing a friend of mine to the Jossverse (currently at the start of season 5), and he mentioned how he really likes the characters on Angel because they're all kind of torn as to whether they should fight the good fight. Their moral ground is much murkier than the Buffy characters. All I could think was "Well, wait till we get to 6 and 7." I think in those seasons Joss allowed the characters to slip into darkness and seriously question the meaning of redemption, power, self-loathing, what it means to be alive, etc. I thought it worked brilliantly.

I mostly agree with this article, except I think they're unnecessarily harsh towards season 7. As a series finale, I think that 'Chosen' definitely works better than 'The Gift', which is still an episode in my top 10 Buffy eps ever. 'Chosen' allows the show to completely fulfill the mission statement that it's had from day one, where as 'The Gift' was just an ending. Or, not an ending as the case may be. Both of them rocked.

[ edited by MindPieces on 2004-06-16 16:17 ]

MindPieces | June 16, 18:13 CET

Love EdDantes' selection of nuggets from Season Six! I liked S7 better than some, and I thought "Chosen" was a fine finale, but the season did tend to lack those shiny moments - way too much straight talk, not enough angular humor (excepting "Selfless", "Storyteller", and a few other bits). Have to disagree though with the suggested parity between Buffy's beating of Spike and Spike's attempted rape. B and S' relationship was always kinda based on pummeling ("I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base"); the threat of sexual assault was not, IMO, part of that dynamic.

SoddingNancyTribe | June 16, 20:17 CET

"Love EdDantes' selection of nuggets from Season Six! I liked S7 better than some, and I thought "Chosen" was a fine finale, but the season did tend to lack those shiny moments - way too much straight talk, not enough angular humor (excepting "Selfless", "Storyteller", and a few other bits)"

I agree with that. If they'd spend half as much time in S7 having those moments as they did giving speeches, it'd have been a little more fun.

"Have to disagree though with the suggested parity between Buffy's beating of Spike and Spike's attempted rape. B and S' relationship was always kinda based on pummeling ("I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base"); the threat of sexual assault was not, IMO, part of that dynamic."

Well I have a few points in answer of that. First of all, the beating in the alley was quite beyond the ususally clonks on the nose or their regular fights. It wasn't equal, it wasn't Spike's beloved 'dancing', it was just a cruel brutal beating.

But if you do want to use that argument, then you can also say that them having sex always started with her saying 'no' and almost always with them fighting, and in the end she always had sex with him anyway. From his soulless point of view, why would this time be different? How could he know this time it would suddenly be a terrible thing to do? 'Smashed' and other times was basically them beating each other up while raping each other. Now all of a sudden, the Slayer, stronger than him, is transformed into a weak and squealy little girl. (And don't even get me started on that silly 'back injury' that they tried to clarify everything with)

And while both were crimes of passion in a way, done in the heat of near madness, at least our soulless vampire was mortified when he realized what it was he'd almost done. The oh so souled and human Buffy was merely somewhat shocked when she saw the results of her handiwork, and then stepped over Spike's bloody body and left him in the alley like a dead piece of meat.

I'm afraid that when I add it all up they're both morally equally wrong to me.

BTW, It really annoys me when the so called 'Bangels' quote the attempted rape scene as a reason why Buffy shoudn't even be with souled Spike but should still run to Angel. Hello? Anyone see S2? Angelus wanted to destroy her life, slowly break down, torture, tear apart and kill everyone she loved. Slowly, methodically and sadistically. You think he wouldn't have ended with torturing, raping and killing her if the mood had struck him and the opportunity arose? If you compare the two, compare soulless Spike to Angelus and souled Spike to Angel.

Rape is a very laden theme in any show, but as I said, when i think deeper I think other things are just as bad. Angelus torturing Giles for pleasure is really worse than either Buffy's beating of Spike or the so-called attempted rape. Angelus was soulless, but so was Spike, and the torture of Giles was not a crime of passion nor was there regret (from soulless Angelus anyway)

And yet no one ever mentions that torture scene as terrible, or quotes it as a reason why Buffy shouldn't be with Angel. Rape is one of the more horrible crimes we know, but does anyone really think that being tortured like that is any less terrible and traumatizing? Yet Giles' torture is generally considered a scene of 'oh yeah wasn't that scary' while Buffy's *almost* getting raped is still the cause of shocked gasps. Why is it considered so much worse in our society? Why is torture and death something we practically shrug off, but rape, even one that really only *almost* happens, something we can barely watch?

EdDantes | June 16, 21:12 CET

EdDantes - I agree with much of what you say (as I did while yet a passive lurker here for many moons). And since I'm not a shipper for either Angel or Spike - firmly in the "let's all move on and what will be will be" camp - I wouldn't begin to balance Angelus's torture with soulless Spike's deeds. One difference, I guess, is that most of S2's evil was implied; the scene in "Seeing Red" was naturalistic, deliberately heightening the pain for viewers. That doesn't excuse Angel, and I don't think torture or murder should be shrugged off more easily than rape.

It's true that sex between Buffy and Spike followed the pattern that you discern, but I think when she broke it off in "As You Were", that really was a clean break (at least from her POV). So the "no" in Seeing Red really had a force and clarity to it that previous ones hadn't.

One final thought: I'm by no means an expert on rape (happy not to have to think about too much, in all honesty), but I believe it's documented that even physically strong women can be shocked, essentially, into passivity by the threat of it. If so, that would probably hold true even for the Slayer; I'm not sure "weak and squealy little girl" really describes what's going on.

Just my ha-porth worth.

SoddingNancyTribe | June 16, 21:31 CET

As someone who worked at a Rape Crisis center I am somewhat familiar with that subject and there was a definite difference in what happened in their previous encounters and the last one. Buffy had most certainly ended it and Spike was well aware of that. And to say that because she gave in before that makes it right isn't right. That's like saying a woman who was in a battered relationship and put up with it and then leaves the guy shouldn't complain when he stalks her and beats her up again because she allowed it to happen before.

But I also agree that it isn't fair to then say that Spike with a soul is the same as souless Spike. What he tried to do to Buffy mortified him, even though he was souless. He caught a glimpse of himself thru her eyes when he attempted to rape her and was disgusted with himself. That showed more humanity in that one second than Angelus ever had. Angelus wanted to kill everyone Buffy loved and then kill her but he wanted to toy with her first. But when he became Angel again, every fan was completely okay with it and didn't blame him for the actions of Angelus. The characters of Xander and Giles couldn't forget though. Giles knew that it wasn't really Angel who killed Jenny and tortured him but he still had a very hard time trusting Angel again. And Xander always distrusted Angel and felt justified when Angel did turn.

Buffy was wary of Spike when he returned but warmed up to him when she realized he had gotten his soul back. I also don't agree with the fans that still judged him for the attempted rape and thought it was wrong for Buffy to trust him too. She was able to realize with both Angel and Spike that she could trust them because of their souls and that unsouled, they were a totally different person. The problem with Spike, and this is on the writers, they allowed him to seem so human before they ensouled him. There were a couple of times during the season (six) where they had him being menacing but not enough to see that he was still truly evil. When he thought the chip wasn't working, the first thing he did was try and kill someone. We needed to see more of that to see that he was still truly evil after all. There were several times during the season where he's trying to convince Buffy that she needs to be in the dark with him and he tells her she doesn't belong with her friends (a typical thing an abusive, controlling person will do with their love interest is to alienate them from friends and loved ones) and they should've shown more of that. Then when he became ensouled we would've noticed more of a difference in just how much Spike had changed. JM has been quoted as saying he may have played Spike differently if he had known the path the character was going to take so fans would've noticed more of a difference with souled Spike and unsouled Spike.

I think if the writers had showed us the more evil side of Spike throughout season six people wouldn't have had such a hard time seeing the difference when he got his soul. Spike could've still tried to alienate Buffy from her friends but we should've seen him doing more evil behind her back (like the whole "Doctor" thing which seemed to come out of no where). The season started with Spike working with the Scoobies but maybe they should've just made it clear he was only there because of Dawn because he felt he had to protect her for the memory of Buffy. Now, I'm not saying I didn't love the Spike of season six but to make the whole "getting a soul" more of an impact they should've made him still be more evil than nice.

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 22:28 CET

“I also don't agree with the fans that still judged him for the attempted rape and thought it was wrong for Buffy to trust him too. She was able to realize with both Angel and Spike that she could trust them because of their souls and that unsouled, they were a totally different person.”

I can forgive Angel and Spike because the demons inside, not their soulled selves, were responsible for their actions. But I can’t forget. I guess I don’t find it as easy to trust as Buffy.
To clarify, the problem I had with Spike and Harmony was that she initially told him to get off and pushed him away. As a supposedly lighthearted means to satisfy one of hedonist Spike’s primal urges, I think the whole thing was handled a bit too flippantly. Also, while I thought Jenny’s death and the torture of Giles were excruciating, the attempted rape seemed too realistic for a show that prides itself on its metaphors.

“The problem with Spike, and this is on the writers, they allowed him to seem so human before they ensouled him.”

There’s the rub. It allows the character to be romanticized to a certain extent. I’m not part of the “Poor little Spikey, he’s so misunderstood” camp. He’s a fascinating creation but I have such mixed feelings about him. Taking into account a demon has infused a mama’s boy poet (William) and not a drunken jerk (Liam) soulless Spike should still have been more obviously threatening. Chip or no chip, he was still an evil soulless thing. It’s hard to remember that sometimes.

bloodflowers | June 17, 04:17 CET

Taking into account a demon has infused a mama’s boy poet (William) and not a drunken jerk (Liam) soulless Spike should still have been more obviously threatening. Chip or no chip, he was still an evil soulless thing.

Well, I suppose that it speaks to whether or not there is such a thing as pure evil. When people do evil things is it just out of the inability to tap into their own emotions?

marmoset | June 17, 04:46 CET

In the "Lies My Parents Told Me" commentary, they go on about how Spike has always been something of an anomoly in the vampire world, dating back to when we first saw him in season 2 with his commitment and love for Drusilla; in season 3 when he came back heartbroken that she'd left him; and after he was sired, he wanted a way to hold on to his mom, and it was difficult for him to stake her, Angelus on the other hand just went and killed his whole family.

Ghost Spike | June 17, 04:54 CET

IMHO, I thought Season Six was an exceptionally strong season and where it should have ended (I'm not a huge fan of Season Seven. I thought it was the weakest season of all). Season Six is what got me hooked. Sure I had seen the occasionally episode, but being considerably young when the show started, I never really got the feel. Not to say I'm an extremely depressed person, I'm a really happy person. Season Six was very funny, but dark at the same time. It showed some character developement. I think that if I had started watching in Season Seven, I wouldn't've continued watching after three episodes. I now have all the avalible seasons on DVD.

I don't think that it should've ended with season five because I don't believe there wasn't that much closure. Sure, Buffy died for the good of the world, but I think she did it for selfish, as well as good reasons. She wanted out. She didn't really want to live in that world anymore. I honestly thought it would have been a bigger sacrifice if she had let Dawn die and her to continue on fighting. Though, on the other side, she felt that Dawn had to much to live for to die so soon. But really, her mother had just died, and then she lost a sister. But I'm sidetracked.

Season Six was about growing and the character developement got me hooked. Sure it had flaws, but all of the seasons do. But I just don't understand how people can think it was a weak season. Buffy had died (which Joss Whedon thought he had to do in case they weren't picked up) and you don't just get over being riped out of heaven in a couple of episodes like Mirkan said. Buffy's character developement was amazing and it happened in the right amount of time. Not too quick, not to slowly. I thought, overall, character wise, it was one of the best seasons.

But that's just my opinion and people can disagree with me all they want. =)

toxiceuphoria | June 17, 06:43 CET

EdDantes: the decision to put Buffy out of the action at season's end is brilliant and fitting. That's how she STARTS the season. And at the end, she crawls out of the ground not because she has to or because she was forced to (like when they ressurrect her) but because she wants to. And from there on everything looks different.

I pretty much adore every season six episode up to Tabula Rasa, and there were some serious gems after that: Normal Again, Hell's Bells. But I think there were great moments in the second half of the season, but few great episodes.

tuneman570 | June 17, 06:47 CET

"I can forgive Angel and Spike because the demons inside, not their soulled selves, were responsible for their actions."

See, I'm not sure I agree with this notion.

The demon inside both Angel and Spike is rather simple. It's more instinct than anything else, and from what we've seen, affection or sexual stimulation is not something the demon instinctually craves.

One can argue that Angelus desire to toy with his victims is just as much a personal distinction that's spun off Liam's sadistic side (another, longer discussion) and I pretty much agree with that, but I also think that it's important to note that Spike's demon had no reason to rape Buffy.

The man raped Buffy. William's desire to be close, twisted by the lack of a soul. I think it's wrong to shrug it off and blame it on the demon, and I think therefore they made such a big deal of it on the show.

I'm not gonna defend torture, and Angelus is a far more vicious and evil character than soulless Spike ever was, but I still get how the rape thing was especially traumatic for Buffy. Rape is very very personal, and I think it's the notion that the MAN tried to rape her that sets it apart.

All opinion and interpretation of course.

SimonM7 | June 17, 10:31 CET

If you are saying that it was the man, not the demon, who attempted to rape Buffy because he didn’t vamp out, I can understand that viewpoint. I think it was important to have him not because we needed to see it in his eyes and face that even without a soul he knew what he did was wrong. Or at least that he had gone too far. But how did he know? If we believe him to be an amoral soulless demon, how did that humanity emerge through his demon self? If it was the man, the same humanity, that made him attack Buffy it’s even more disturbing. Perhaps in that instance, in putting the metaphors aside, the man was the demon. Although I don’t think unsoulled Spike was pure evil, he shouldn’t have appeared to have a soul/conscience before he actually did.

bloodflowers | June 17, 17:37 CET

Well, if Spike and Angelus would completely give in to the demon's instinct, they would just kill to feed all the time. What makes them "human" is their memories, and based on their memories they make decisions.

I'm saying that the demon wasn't responsible, simply because the demon has no desire to rape. The desire to rape, or rather the will to be close, was William's. I'm not saying William was a rapist either, but I do believe the intention was, loosely, to be "close" to Buffy, and it got twisted by his lack of a soul and subsequently the inability to tell right from wrong.

I think the distincion between soulless Spike and a guy with a soul is WHY they decide to be good or evil. Soulless Spike could only apply memories and "thoughts" to right and wrong, be it his own or the will of Buffy, whereas a guy with a soul feels that it's wrong while attempting to perform the act.

And for the record, I don't buy the whole "Spike got a soul because he felt it was the right thing to do" thing. I still firmly believe he got it because he wanted to be good in order to earn Buffy's love. I don't mean to diminish... anything, by saying that. I still think Spike's awesome, the development awesome, and it's all just completely beautiful.

Getting back to my point though. I think Spike's loving, caring side can be directly connected to another anomaly; Angelus. It's pointed out at a number of occasions that Angelus way of toying with his victims was unique to him. He took genuine pleasure in screwing with people's heads, and that pleasure actually had priority over the demon's "kill, kill, eat, eat!" nature.

He actually took a step back from the natural vampire pattern to pursue his own desire. This is exactly what Spike did, only it was slightly more huggy and slightly less tortury.

So! In closing, I think the rapage was derived from William's persona rather than the demon's instincts, hence disturbingness.

(Although I stress that I don't think William was a rapist)

SimonM7 | June 17, 18:35 CET

"William's desire to be close, twisted by the lack of a soul. I think it's wrong to shrug it off and blame it on the demon, and I think therefore they made such a big deal of it on the show."

I disagree. The whole point of demonisation is that the flaws and desires of the humans are perverted when the demon takes over. It is demonstrated in both Liam to Angelus (after he is vamped, he doesn't go kill, like, everybody. He goes for his family and village after the writers made it clear that he was angry at his father and needed his acceptance among those people.) and William to Spike (he tells his ma that even after he is married, he will stay with her or that he already has a woman in his life. He sires her after turning. His desire for Cecily is comepletely natural, but after being turned, he almsot defines himself by the women he is with and has that desire to be with them) that who they were before shapes who the vamp will be. Yes, they BOTH are flawed humans but if one says that William or Liam or both were already evil, then what would be the point of makng them demons? The whole metaphor would be lost.

For the person who suggested that Spike "instigated" the beating, I don't buy that as an excuse as I wouldn't buy somebody saying that Buffy "instigated" the attempted rape.

As for the attempted rape, my problem is how it was done so half-assed in regards to the nature of BtVS. They admitted it was used to both sway the opinions of people who thought Spike was "redeemed" or "good" and to send Spike on quest to get his soul, both of which suggest to me that they don't care about the issue itself, but trather what it could do for them. Plus the contrivance was showing Buffy, whom we KNOW can kill him, acting like a regular woman. Yes, the writers who claim that Buffy is supposed to be a symbol of "girl power" actually take away her power and dwindle her down to a helpless woman just so people can see the error of their ways. THAT, I think, is in part why people keep asking questions and talking about it after all this time.

NirvanaPunk | June 28, 18:14 CET