At my wife's office Christmas party last week I started, unbidden of course, to discuss Buffy/Angel/etc. with her boss's husband...about how it is art, and art of a high order, no apoligies...he is a philosophy professor...and he turned to his wife and said, "You know, (Somebody) has said similar things about Buffy...maybe we should watch..."

Indeed. I want to go to one of these conferences!

Chris inVirginia | December 20, 03:27 CET

There's no expressing how much I want to attend a conference like that. I even have sutiable papers!
Sigh. Guess I'll have to stick with zines until I can magically appear in other countries.

Flair | December 20, 03:31 CET

I had a 'discussion' on the IMDB posting boards about Buffy from someone who said the idea that there's layers or subtext in Buffy was a joke. I posted several links similiar to this to show that many people think otherwise.

Sometimes I think I should copy all of them onto CD ROM and carry several copies with me at all time, ready to give to people who need..... converting.

zz9 | December 20, 03:50 CET

S'funny your contrasting experiences, Lizard and zz9. I have close friends whom I've completely seduced with BtVS. On the other hand, work colleagues whose intellect and sense of humor I value won't give the show the time of day, and find my passion for it comical. Just last Wednesday night at a party, one such colleague told another in rather a ironic tone of my strange belief that there was "literary value" in Buffy - and this in the middle of a fevered discussion about who should triumph in "The Apprentice"(!) And, unfortunately, the more I protested, albeit in a calm (well, calm-ish) manner, the more they clearly thought I was competely nutzo.

Short of a modern-day Damascene conversion, the truth is some folk just aren't going to get beyond Joss's brilliant but problematic title . . .

SoddingNancyTribe | December 20, 03:59 CET

Nobody I know in Holland takes TV drama (or pop music/culture for that matter) seriously... and I work in broadcasting! It's just entertainment to them and they don't discuss it on any other level than the latest showbiz gossip. When I tried to discuss BtVS with a colleague and self-appointed intellectual, he said SMG couldn't act and wouldn't discuss it further. Another much heared response around the work place is: 'I don't like genre shows' (not that they know the term genre shows, they'd call it 'sci-fi'. Actually, they wouldn't, since they're Dutch. 'Sci-yunce Fikshun'.)

It makes me want to beat the crap out of them. But in a nice way.

Caroline | December 20, 04:21 CET

I think that's the answer Caroline. Violence. Let's all get together and beat the crap out of everyone who aren't even willing to watch a few episodes and make an informed decision. Here in the UK I have people tell me "It's just a kids show" or "It's silly" but they'll happily watch Eastenders, a soap full of the worst acting, writing, plots, stereotypes and cliche's around.

When the "Top 100 Musicals" list was done a year ago I read several comments about "How could they put a silly Buffy musical in a list of proper, serious, musicals?" and I think even in the show itself a celeb made a similiar comment. Part of the greatness of OMWF was having the lyrics moving the plot along and each characters lyrics being true to character, something that a casual viewer may not appreciate, but even so I really doubt that these people had ever actually watched it and were just unwilling to give it a chance.

zz9 | December 20, 04:54 CET

Around the time BtVS ended, I copied and printed out all the laudatory - supremely, outrageously laudatory - editorials and articles about the show published in prestigious places. This little collection of mine helps a lot with the snobs. To those who won't give the materials a onceover, I tell them (truthfully) that the NYTimes had an editorial on its *main* editorial page saluting the show, the Christian Science Monitor called it "art," and various other papers called it "a work of genius," etc. etc. This gets at least some of them to sit up and take notice.

Those who still won't budge I then tongue lash for their snobbery, telling them for example that many music lovers initially called jazz "children's music." I shame them into allowing - grudgingly - that any genre or mode of expression within which the human creative spirit can work will produce works of genius.

Those who still scoff? I also want to beat the crap out of them. And maybe not in such a nice way. Useless cretins.

phlebotinin | December 20, 04:55 CET

Flair -- are you in the U.S.? The PCA/ACA conference in New Mexico this February, while not a Whedon-specific conference, promises to have tons of Buffy presentations (I'm giving one on OMWF!). I think the date for proposals has passed, but sometimes they accept latecomers. You should at least try! And! I know that a 2006 Whedonverse conference is in the works from the folks at Slayage (organizers of the 2004 conference).

orphea | December 20, 05:00 CET

Phleb, I think you may be right...fisticuffs may be the only recourse against some of these snobby recalcitrants...

Seriously, it is infuriating the dismissive attitudes I encounter in my Buffyvangeliziation...but I'll persist...hell, how can I not!

[ edited by Lizard on 2004-12-20 04:55 ]

Chris inVirginia | December 20, 06:49 CET

Orphea - Alas, I'm in Australia, and fairly deprived of conferences like those. Your presentation sounds awesome, though, and I hope you have a great time!

Flair | December 20, 07:03 CET

Orphea, I second Flair's post. It does sound awesome. I'd love to be there as well. I'm in the state next to New Mexico. So hey! It could happen. (Wait. I'm guessing that since its a conference, it isn't open to the public. :P )

Especially since you are doing it on OMWF. Can't tell you how my little fangirl heart loves that episode. Go girl. Spread the love... (Er, apologies if you are a guy...)

Willowy | December 20, 07:36 CET

I, too, penned a letter to the editor about how, on the eve of ending of an award winning, 7 season show that was both the subject of intellectual scrutiny (witness slayage.tv) and a cult series that had withstood network transition and entered into a generation's vocabulary could possibly be less interesting than what happened on coronation street. I provided numerous links to the NYT, Salon etc where they had discussed the final episode to make sure they didn't think this was just some crank fan thing. There was no response. (Insert Exceptionally Rude Word Here)

Willowy: apology accepted, I put it on on vid last night, it has stood the test of time and hearing it a lot.

giles (yes, it is my real name) | December 20, 11:30 CET

You lot have it easy, I have tried and tried to explain Mr Whedon’s works to my husband of fifteen years, and although he is finally at the point where he will watch Angel and Firefly with me (the threat of no marital relations works very well I find), the moment I mention Buffy, he just says ‘no’ in the ‘I will not ever change my mind kind of voice’, so I had to give up on that one.

But in all fairness, although he clearly thinks I am slightly insane (in a very attractive sort of way), he did buy me a great Angel poster for my birthday. A very, very nice man after all!

So can’t go with the (domestic) violence suggestion I’m afraid. Sheesh, what happens if he likes it?

I usually find talking to people they fall into two camps: they either get it (and then they get it completely) or they don’t get it at all, which is fair enough.

miranda | December 20, 21:25 CET

I've found academic types to be pretty open to Buffy, and we tend to be as snobby as they come intellectually speaking. Don't know if I've converted any of my colleagues yet, but they seem interested in work that I do on the series.

This semester I was using BtVS to illustrate a point about Latin American literature (my field) in one of my classes and several students grinned and one remarked that he had several professors who made references to that series.

Also, Willowy, these academic conferences are usually open to people who want to attend and listen. You usually have to pay a registration fee, but I've never been to one that would turn down the extra money. We just don't usually expect that anyone besides us would be interested enough to come and listen.

Biff Turkle | December 20, 22:43 CET

I agree that academic types tend to be more open about accepting BtVS's worth. Academics may be prone to a certain peculiarly wretched brand of snobbiness but we're also trained to look beyond labels and find depth wherever it may be. That's the ideal, anyway. (And one that is certainly not always followed.)

I've used BtVS in some of my classes and most of my academic colleagues are already fans. Those who aren't fans at the least don't sneer.

If someone gives the Whedon shows an honest chance and decides that they don't like the stuff, that's fair enough. It's the people who haven't seen BtVS but *absolutely* refuse to allow that excellence might exist in a show entitled "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" I don't get.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2004-12-20 23:09 ]

phlebotinin | December 21, 00:54 CET

I was one of those awful snobs. I could not beleive it when my cinema studies class was to watch Buffy ( which I am ashamed to say I assumed was much like, even worse than Charmed). But after my friend had been nagging me for so long to watch it and then having my teacher who's opinion and taste I trusted, I finally gave in. The best decision I ever made.
I've recently converted my extremely stubburn sister, so I think if I and my sister can become fans, almost anyone can.
As much as these rude, snobby people can't understand the brilliance of Buffy, I just remember that I was one of them, so I believe there's still hope. I really think the fan base for this show will just continue to grow.

buffbuff | December 22, 04:46 CET