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January 01 2005

Faith's Surname. If anybody really wanted to know. Not sure it was needed really. (Joss mentions why he chose it in the comments section).

First post of the year, and it's something I have very little interest in, but hey....
Happy New Year Everybody, lets hope it's a better one for the whedonverse than last year.

Yeah, I saw this earlier but not 100% sure it's accurate. No mention of it on the Eden Studios website or forums and I looked on the German Eliza site and no mention it of it there either. But anyway, a happy New Year to you Ghost Spike.
It was announced on the newsletter of the German Eliza Dushku site.
Ouch. Hope it's not 100% accurate...
Lehane...a good Irish name...she was from Boston, no? A Southie tough, no doubt...

Interestingly enough (maybe), Eliza is from Boston. And the guy who wrote "Mystic River" is named Dennis Lehane...okay, I'll stop now...
Interestingly, Lizbeth Marcs gives her the last name of Lanoire in her fic, "Living History." Not too far off...
This isn't the first mention of Lehane as her surname I've seen. On a page about the Queen of the Slayers book a month or so back someone mentioned it was her surname.
Lehane? I don't like it and I hope it's not true. I agree with Lizard that this may suggest she's Boston Irish. But Faith should provide more of a contrast to Buffy's blonde-All-American thing. Faith needs a Polish name, or an Italian name, or something like that. They have lots of Poles and Italians in Boston too, and Eliza just doesn't look Irish, to me. Except for Willow "Rosenberg", the show was so sadly lacking in the diverse ethnic thing. Summers, Harris, Giles, Finn, Jenkins, McClay . . .Spike is English, Angel is Irish . . . Oz is "Daniel Osborne," there's Doyle, Chase, Wyndam- Price, Burkle, Knox . . it would have been nice to add a Petrucci or a Wallinsky or a Diaz or Hamoud or something like that to that list.

And with Eliza's darker, more exotic looks, Faith would have made a perfect opportunity to mix it up a little. Instead we get Lehane. Isn't Joss aware that there are white folks in the US from other parts of Europe than Northern Europe? I like the Irish additions - Liam, Riley Finn, Doyle - just fine, but we didn't need another one. Disappointing and boring.
the show was so sadly lacking in the diverse ethnic thing.

Wha? You think they should have crowbarred in some ethnic diversity just for the sake of it?
From a Coat of Arms website which gives the following for the name Lehane:

"Origin Displayed: Scottish

Spelling variations include: Lyon, Lions, Lyons and others.
First found in Norfolk where they were seated from very early times and were granted lands by Duke William of Normandy, their liege Lord, for their distinguished assistance at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 A.D.

Some of the first settlers of this name or some of its variants were: John Lyon settled in the Barbados in 1634; Mathew Lyon settled in North Carolina with his wife Mary in 1775; William Lyon settled in Boston in 1635; Bernard, George, James, Jane, John, Mathew, Patrick Lyon all settled in Philadelphia between 1840 and 1860."
I don`t know yet if i like it or i don`t like it.

I need to think about it. My first reaction was to say it`s too "repipi" for Faith. Sorry, but i can`t find the same word in english.

Happy 2005 for everybody!

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2005-01-01 21:42 ]
"Jenkins,"

Anya was from one of the baltic state's or what would become them in her ,Aud's ,future
I don't love it and I don't dislike it, but she was more mysterious without the last name. Antoinette would have been better, but then I'm incredibly biased.
Just sayin' that it makes sense for her to be an Irish tough from South Boston...jeez, even Trick noticed that Sunnydale was light on the brother front...but, oh, that death rate...
I agree, Lizard. And the name doesn't bother me particularly. I was struck, Simon, by an alternate name/spelling being "Lion," as Faith is a bit like a lion! (Free associating hereóand I didn't even drink last night!)
Grounded - oh no, I'm against crowbarring, definitely. But giving the dark-haired, comparitively exotic looking Faith a more ethnic name doesn't feel like crowbarring to me. Naming her "Lehane" feels like crowbarring . . . forcing another Irish name in where it doesn't seem to fit at all. To me, crowbarring suggests forcing something. I mean, if they'd named Oz "Juan Gonzal-oz" that would seem like crowbarring.
Hmm, I thought Anya's last name was 'Lameass Madeup Maiden Name Harris' hehe....sorry, just woke up...and recently watched Selfless.

Lehane. Well, as far as names go, I don't have anything against it. What I'm really curious about is what William's last name was. Besides 'the Bloody' of course...
Hm, pretty sure it wasn't necessary to give her a surname. Same as with Rogue from the X-Men, I was fine with her being just 'Rogue'. When characters have been known by one name for so long, whatever they come up with will sound off to me.

But in the end, what does it matter anyway. I'm curious to see if Joss will ever use it, in comics or otherwise...
" forcing another Irish name in where it doesn't seem to fit at all"

I'll admit I am biased being Irish but the character is from Boston and according to your earlier post there are equal numbers of Polish,Italians and Irish in Boston so I don't see how it is forcing another Irish name in

And as for ED not looking Irish DB wasn't really Irish yet he played an Irish character
sari - to be honest I don't think the origin of a name matters as long as it feels consistent and sounds good. Faith Lehane does not, to me at least.
Maybe that's why she never used it. Her surname aversion brings up a question. Does she ever mention her father at all? I remember her talking about her mother's idiosyncrasies a couple of times, but the Mayor was pretty much it in the paternal department.
There was this role playing game or something. They said she hadda have a last name for her so I chose Lehane 'cause I wanted something southie, just as you thought. So if you hate the name. oops.

And it's Rogue Waladarsky. In full.
Hi there Joss! Thanks for stopping by once again. I think Lahane is just fine. Sounds better than, say, Faith Waladarsky ;^)
As long as you didn't pick a couple of other popular "southie" names like Damon and Affleck, Lahane sounds good to me! You know, my family immigrated to Boston and they're Greek, lots of Greeks in Boston. You could've named her Faith Beatumuponopolis. Okay, I'm tired - I was up way too late last night!

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-01-02 01:36 ]

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-01-02 01:37 ]
Tell me that she's Boston Scots? That there's a Highland clan that Faith can trace her ancestry back to? I have to write this, my last name is Fraser.

Anyway, ta very much for posting and giving your reason behind the name :). Much appreciated.
"I'm Faith Lehane of the Clan Lehane, I was born in 1982 in the town of Boston on the shores of Mystic River and I'm a Slayer. There can be only one."
*cue epic Queen score* She'd suit tartan ;).
I think the name fits the character. Just not so convinced that it fits Eliza D, who's definitely got that southern slav thing going, despite her danish notes. But hey, it's not one of the bigger deals in the 'verse, now is it?
Well, that answers that question. Happy New Year, Mr. J!
Yep, I guess it's canon. Thanks for the confirmation, Joss.
How sweet it is to have the name choice confirmed by the creator of the character himself. Or is it "Himself?" Is it so very wrong to fawn? This board is the best.

I like "Lehane." It evokes character-appropriate darkness what with the Dennis Lehane thing. And while ED looks very Albanian to me, a Southie with an Irish/Scottish last name needn't be 100% Irish/Scottish. I imagine Faith to be a mix just like most Americans.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2005-01-02 02:51 ]
If Lyon is one of its variations how would it be pronounced? I'm guessing it's pronounced somewhat like the actress Lalaine?
I liked the idea of her being named Winters as well, but its not too important to me.

Hey Joss, is it official that Connor's last name is "Angel"? Thats what it says on his birth certificate in Season 3, episode 10.
I wasn't a big fan of the name Lahane when I first heard it, but I think it does fit. It means grey, which fits Faith's character and it's Irish/Scottish which fits South Boston. Eliza's dad is Albanian, but her mom is of Danish decent. I'd buy Eliza as part-Irish.

If Joss happens to stop by again, would you like to resolved another Faith debate? How old is Faith and is Faith older or younger than Buffy?
My guess, FaithFan, is about the same age as Buffy, maybe just a tad younger at most.
And while ED looks very Albanian to me, a Southie with an Irish/Scottish last name needn't be 100% Irish/Scottish. I imagine Faith to be a mix just like most Americans.

Very true, phlebotinin. Hey, has anyone ever heard of the so-called "Black Irish"? They're said to be the descendents of surviving Spanish sailors from the Felicima armada that were shipwrecked on the northern and western coasts of Ireland in the fall of 1588. Survivors were taken in by Irish natives, some of whom intermarried and had children with the distinctive dark eyes and hair of Mediterranean ancestry, along with either the fair skin of Northern-European Irish or the darker coloring of the Spanish mainland. (Isn't that all nice and text-booky? :) Celtic influence in the genes can also produce dark hair, but more typically it comes with a pale-ish complexion and blue or blue-gray eyes. (As a North Carolinian of German-Scots-Irish ancestry, I fall into this latter category.)

There's lots of other theories about the Black Irish, though, and if you've got a mind to investigate (or confuse yourself further), try this forum.

I can grok Lehane. It's uncommon, just like Faith herself. But as a person who was constantly trying to distance herself from her past, it wouldn't really matter what her name was; because her last name would have symbolized her identity at a time in her life when she felt powerless, it makes sense she wouldn't want to identify herself with it later on. Maybe she thought, "Lahane -- not striking fear in anyone's heart, but Faith? World, look out." ;)

Regardless of origin and meaning, me like. I think you done good, joss. And what's this about you and role playing games? *cough* I love that you're such a uber-geek. Makes me feel better about my ownself! And while we're talking monikers here, just what is Angel's human surname, anyway? Was there ever one in mind? Or is the jury still out?
"Hey, has anyone ever heard of the so-called "Black Irish"? They're said to be the descendents of surviving Spanish sailors from the Felicima armada "

I have heard of that term but nowadays in Ireland if you mentioned that term people would tend to think of the inhabitants of Montserrat who are well known ,because of a tv programme, as all having very Irish names eg Sullivan,Collins,Fitzgerald etc and also accents that sound Irish.

The story apparently behind them having such accents and names is that when their ancestors were brought there as slaves the white people in charge were mostly Irish and down the years as marriages occured the names stuck around
I've heard of the black irish because I've been called 'black irish'. However, those people are often dissapointed to learn that we actually have romanian gypsy blood from about 4 generations back and thats where we figure the dark streak comes from. Damn gypsies also gave me my soul back, the bastards.

I personally think Lehane works, if only because I keep on pronouncing it as ' La Haine ' - french for The Hate and also an excellent French movie about the Paris slums. Kinda suits Faith, I think.
Joss, you of course, rock as always. Thanks for setting us on the path of truth re: this little topic. Lehane just doesn't suit her, IMO. Not that I would presume to argue with you, EVER, but she just seems like she needs an Italian last name. I've always thought of her as Italian, just a vibe, and just my 'feeling' from Faith. But I know she was supposed to be a tough southie girl, so my feeling pretty much goes out the door now...

And no, I'm not Italian. German/Irish/English Heinz 57 blend. Just about everything caucasian you can imagine. Hmph. Not very exotic, I know.
If Faith were Boston Scots, that'd be pretty damn awesome. I have no idea why it'd be particularly awesome that a fictional character had roots in the country I'm from, but it would be.

As for the need for more ethnic diversity in Buffy? I couldn't agree more. Xander should have turned out to be black in the fourth season.

The cynical would have had a field day with that one.
Hey good to see you Joss seem to have become a regular here. Gotta a question for you: Angel Movie?????? come on you knew someone was gonna ask on this site sometime so do you think its a possibility or not
Having an Irish name doesn't require that you look Irish. My last name is Daugherty, but to most folks I'm very clearly Asian. It happens that I'm also half Japanese. The last name really doesn't have to fit the look. Not in this day and age anyway.

My three step children are part Hispanic, but are all blue eyed blondes. My sweetie's genes were pretty dominant there. From Sandy: welcome to the melting pot!

[ edited by dcubed on 2005-01-02 07:20 ]
Faith could be any mix of nationalities. My mom is a 2nd generation Greek whose parents came in through Boston, she married my dad who was French, Irish, Scottish, and Native American which makes me definitely a melting pot of cultures. Eliza does have an ethnic look to her, as I do, but I grew up with a non ethnic last name so it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Faith's mother was from a Mediterranean background and her dad a European background.
Whats Angel's surname? Someone told me that in one episode it was Jones but I think he sometimes used "Angel" as his surname? I don't even know why I care, just curious I guess.
Lizard, Faith's last name and Faith's age are the two big debates with the Faith fans. Most Faith fanfic has Faith younger than Buffy. Then the Angel Casefile book printed a birthdate for Faith making her slightly older than Buffy, angering a lot of Faith fans. But those books are never official. It was sort of like when this surname was unveiled- all the Faith fans upset and arguing about it. I wondered if Joss would comment on that.
When I saw that Joss posted I started crying. But anyway I like Lehane. But for the people with controversy: couldn't you just assume that her dad was Irish or Scottish and her mom Italian and she'd take her dad's last name? She'd still be Italian or whatever ethnicity you think of her as.

Plus I want to know Angel's last name too.
Lehane works for me. Not much time to chat, just wanted to wish you good people a happy new year. Take care!
garda39, since Aud and Olaf spoke excellent swedish in Selfless it would not be to unreasonable to claim that they where in fact swedish, but I guess they could have moved.
As usual there is room for different interpretations.
Caroline, have you been playing with the vip name color? Cause now they appear in dark purple? Just wondering...

Anyway, nice to finally giving Faith a surname, maybe it'll be a first step to exploring more of her backstory. I always wondered how was her family, and how her first watcher approached her years ago, and her journey to sunnydale. Even if didn't turned out as some tv series or movie special, it would be a very interesting comic book mini series.
Yes, I've been trying to get the colours under control, make them stand out without being too annoying and also make the colours obvious across different platforms and monitors.
Caroline, just make SNT yellow.
Well I think Joss' purple looks great. Very bold. And I think SNT looks excellent in blue. Nice job, Caroline.
It's the yellow that makes my eyes hurt. Still toying with that. Difference between yellow/blue is admin/mod, Madhatter, we wouldn't want to saddle up SNT with techie tasks!
I think the name is interesting. It does sound kinda weird, but I guess I like it. I'm not really sure yet. I do hope that the REAL reason Joss is comming up with Faith's Surname is that he is secretly working on FtS.
Just a quickie about the meaning of things. I read only yesterday that "reivers" were, centuries ago, gangs of both English & Scottish bandits who made their living from robbing people's houses (apparently the word "bereaved" (having something taken from you) comes from this. I didn't know this before.

And going back to Angel's surname...Jones!? Surely not! (Just as well it wasn't Spike's surname; cool though he is).
Joss"And it's Rogue Waladarsky. In full."

Hehe, a well-known southern name of course....Still beats "Ana Marie" in my book but that's a different story;-)

Funny thing is, 'Lehane' sounds so french to me. I'm sure it's Irish but it sounds french and that's why I have this 'Louisiana' feel with it. Which shows my ignorance in these matters. But it's funny because it kinda fits for me since I always felt Faith as a character may have had some roots in the X-Men's Rogue, like there's some snippets of Kitty in Buffy or Willow.

Funny. As for Spike and Angel, I've always wondered why no one ever noticed they basically had the same name. 'Liam' is the irish abbreviation of 'William' right? So they were both 'Williams'.

Ahh, they're long lost brothers! No wait, that's not right....
If we spell it as gaeilge it'll look less French. Faith ” Liathain. Or perhaps that should be Faith Ni Liathain, seeing as she's female.
since Aud and Olaf spoke excellent swedish in Selfless
JPR, just spent New Years with my brother (who lived in Sweden for many years) and his teen daughter (who is Swedish, and a Buffy fan) and I asked if the dialogue in Selfless was actually Swedish or gibberish. She'd never seen it so I dug out my DVD and we watched it. They both burst out laughing and said it was "Very bad Swedish, or it could have been how it was spoken a thousand years ago"

As to Ms Lehane, I like it. The danger with anything that has been a mystery for so long is us rabid fans are so curious that anything that is finaly revealed is almost certain to be an anti climax. Unless it turned out to be "Wyndam-Pryce" of course.....
" 'Liam' is the irish abbreviation of 'William' right? So they were both 'Williams'."

It is the Gaelic version of William rather than an abbreviation
I read this thread yesterday and went 'huh?'.

Then I read some more posts today and realised it's growing on me. Give it some time and it sounds more natural, I suspect.
I know a lot of people on the Eden board (Buffy RPG) were writing wondering if she was going to get a last name. Personally it doesn't matter to me either way but I like it. I think it adds something new to the character.
Now that it's been some time I really like the name. Faith Lehane. I too thought French and I have no idea how to pronounce it. I first thought french pronounciation Le (the short vowel sound as in 'it') Hay-n but it could be Le han or Lee hane. So does anyone know?

It definitely adds something to her character. It makes her more real and less Madonna.

[ edited by charisma on 2005-01-03 02:07 ]
I wonder had this been revealled when Buffy/Angel were still on the air would we have a big discussion on it? Or are we just so desperate for any scrap of new information we'll discuss the hellmouth out of it?

I'm not saying this is a bad thing (I could talk about anything Buffy for the rest of my life), just curious if everyone would've done this if it happened a couple of years ago (I'm a relatively newbie to the world of Joss).
zz9, as usual it depends on how you ask the question but
I dont agree with
Very bad Swedish, or it could have been how it was spoken a thousand years ago"

To me it sounds like swedish from actors trying their best with a unfamiliar language.
From another angle, I can hear nothing in there that is not swedish, the reference to the baltic woman is a comparison.

Personally I like the idea of Aud ( and Olaf ) being swedish, despite her attachment to the political philosophy of the day.

YMMV of course.

and Faith Lehane works for me.
Ahh, please accept my apogees, Caroline. Sorry.

[ edited by Madhatter on 2005-01-03 12:16 ]
Huh. "Lehane". Okay. Fine by me.

And William's last name was..??

(Anybody who says "The Bloody" gets something sharp pounded into their cranium...)
In the commentary for Selfless its said that they were going to dub in actual Swedish after but Emma and the person who plays Olaf did such a funny/good job they didn't want to
Nearly missed this.

So Lehane is official now then? Well, works for me. After all this time of her just having a first name any surname tacked on the end of "Faith" is going to sound a little strange for a while. Kinda like suddenly having to get used to Bono Smith, hehe.

As for how you pronounce it, i'm guessing that it will something along the lines of "Le Hayne", at least that is how it sounded out in my head when i first read it.
No apology needed, Madhatter. But thanks :-)
Hey all,

Yep, Faith's last name (and Kendra's) were devised for a roleplaying game .. . actually two roleplaying games--the Buffy the Vampire Slayer roleplaying game (btvsrpg.com) and the Angel roleplaying game (angelrpg.com). The most recent supplement under production involves the Watchers. As Watchers span both series, Tea and Crossbows: The Watcher Sourcebook will be our first cross-branded product (Buffy and Angel). Come to think of it, rather than the Buffyverse or Angelverse or even Slayerverse (as we started calling it around here), maybe we should be calling the Buffy/Angel storyline (and any that follow in the future) the Watcherverse. Lord knows the Watchers Council would prefer that.

In truth, that's part of why we needed surnames for Faith and Kendra. The Watcher sourcebook will include a history of the Watchers that spans recorded history and beyond (they do claim decent from the gaggle of old guys who created the first Slayer). Since the only records of that history are those maintained by the Watchers, you can see the huge potential for bias in reporting (if not, you haven't been paying attention to the Watchers much). Also, the tone and presentation of that history follow Watcher wont (i.e., stuffy and formal). In our view, "Slayer Faith" and "Slayer Kendra" didn't fit at all. Not only would the Watcher-recorded history include their names (if the Watchers don't know, who the heck would?), but they would use it. They certainly wouldn't make an exception to appear particularly "chummy" with either of those two, as neither can be counted among the Watchers' greatest triumphs. Slayer Summers was "indeed severely trying and undisciplined," but at least she got the job done for many years. The other two were either "ineffective or extremely counter-productive."

In any event, we had created surnames for both Slayer and were prepared to go that route but decided to see if we could get a definite ruling from the PTB on the issue. Lo and behold, Joss spoke (and quickly we might add). We had hoped to keep the names under wraps as a selling point for the Watcher book sourcebook. Hey, we can dream, can't we? Should've known the word would get out. What the hey, part of why Buffy/Angel fans are the best.

Thanks for listing. Check out the roleplaying games. Keep the Watcherverse alive!
Alex Jurkat is CEO of Eden Studios.

Eventhough I don't play RPGs, I have to say YAY to anything Watcher-related. Now all we need is a TV series to go with it...
Got to agree with the logic there, having had some experience with the military I understand the "Officers and Men" distinction and Quintin Travers would be a typical type to refer to his slayers as "Summers" and "Lehane" rather than Buffy and Faith.

So, now Faiths surname has been sorted out, what's Snyders first name? Or was he christened "Principal"?

And Jpr, my brother said the "bad Swedish" comment while laughing at it, and the show. Since we were watching the episode we didn't talk about it again so he may have been joking.

[ edited by zz9 on 2005-01-04 00:20 ]
I'm all for a new series based around the newly reformed Watcher's Council as well Caroline, definately comes a close second to my Spike/Illyria dream show.

Now if they can just film it in the UK so that Anthony would be willing to come back as Giles as the lead character that would be perfect, hehe.
Yes, thanks for that wonderful, descriptive explanation Alex! Although I'm not into the roleplaying games, don't have the patience for them, they sound fascinating. Love to hear anything Buffyverse related.
So what's the word on Kendra's last name then?
On the matter of Principal Snyder's first name, well, I do know it starts with an "R." It's on his name placard on his desk.

I know, it's a sickness...

[ edited by k8cre8 on 2005-01-04 00:07 ]
From Band Candy: "Call me Snyder. Just a last name, like... Barbarino."

The mystery deepens.....
Lehane....Lehane. Hmmmmmmmm. At first it reminded me of Dairylea Cheese, but its certainly growing on me, and im starting to like it. I really like the fact she has a second name, it makes the relationship much more personal, and i dunno if its just me, but relationship with Faith?......good!

Just a massive little hint, but a Faith series would be also really really good Joss!!!!!!! And all us fans would watch it!!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeeeee!!!!!!! Also y'know if you want to challenge yourself, I've heard Ripper is a very good idea, and a ten part series on the BBC featuring ASH would be nothing short of brilliant. And then the ten part series 2 would be even better. And so on!!!!!!!
I'm note crazy over that name either. Faith Lehane doesn't really sound like a borderline psychotic, but more like Florence Nightingale's best bud. Faith should have a name with more of an edge to it IMO.

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