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"Because it's WRONG."
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February 26 2005

Marti's show, POINT PLEASANT is in trouble and we can vote to save it. She mentions that she wants James for the second season.

Didn't she already admit he turned down the best role in the show?

I think Point Pleasant is a seriously bad show. I love Marti's work on Buffy and had high hopes for PP. I know I'm being cynical, but mentioning the desire for James Marsters in the second season could get a highly motivated sector of the fandom campaigning to save the show without any assurance of a pay off.
Screw Point Pleasant, I'm Voting For Veronica Mars!
Yeah, I already voted for Veronica Mars.

Sorry, Marti. Better luck with your next show!

I, too, loved Marti's work on Buffy. I don't know what has gone wrong on Point Pleasant, but the show is just not...good.
I'm done with PP. I'm just waiting for Tim's show to surface.
PP needs a wake-up call to not suck, and if near-cancellation is what it takes then I am all for.

I'll be voting for Veronica Mars.
If they add James are they going to have him, what, hand out pencils at a dance competition? Adam Busch is being wasted in this show and the only meaningful or interesting character so far is Grant Show. Not only can I not bring myself to care enough to vote to save it, I can barely bring myself to care enough to watch it. Barely.
PP is just not good. I had to throw my support behind Veronica Mars.
I'm sorry, but Point Pleasant deserves to be cancelled, it's an awful show. The writing is terrible, the whole show is contrived and unimaginative and badly paced/acted/directed. There's just nothing about it that makes it watchable, let alone compulsive viewing.

Marti Noxon would be wise to let it go and James Marsters would be wise to stay far far away.
Veronica Mars gets my vote.

Here's a tip Marti. When the premise of your show is the daughter of Satan, don't make the focus of the show "who's sleeping with who this week".
Yes, and Marti admitted that she offered James the Grant Show role, and he turned it down. Still, the bribery of a James mention made me vote for her show. I'm Shameless. Sue me. I don't watch anything anyway, except LOST since Whedonverse left the air.
GrrrAargh, I REALLY agree...isn't it infuriating how they are wasting Adam Busch!
Point Pleasant should be cancelled...
and I voted for Veronica Mars too!
I was going to comment how I was going to ignore Point Pleasant to vote for Veronica Mars instead... but judging by the rest of the comments, that seems a bit superfluous.
Seeing as I'm not a fan of James Marsters, that bribery won't work on me. PP should bow out.
Did anyone hear that some anonymous donor (donors?) gave three million dollars to save ENTERPRISE?
The suckage of Point Pleasant is beyond my ability to describe. I was very disappointed, seeing as I how I deliberately broke my FOX boycott because Marti Noxon was involved with the series. I'll know better next time.
I watch Point pleasant but it really isn't that good. I'm supporting Veronica Mars.
"I'm done with PP. I'm just waiting for Tim's show to surface."

Ditto. Though I am concerned that cancelled PP will mean The Inside ends up in its death slot. Personally i'm hoping Fox ditch Nanny 911, and put The inside on mondays at 8 come march (or more ideal move 24 to 8, and the indside to 9).
I vote to can PP. I couldn't make it through the second ep. There's nothing there for me, and I find it laughable that loads of people, money and other resources were actually spent on producing it. It's just that bad, and unlike a lot of other, merely mediocre, shows, I can't imagine who they thought would actually watch PP.

I've never really been a Noxon defender but I kind of dismissed a lot of the trashing of her personally during S6. I just assumed there was probably a lot of stuff that we, the viewers, don't really ever see and that she was not personally responsible, that she had to have some talent or she wouldnt' have made it that far. However, one and a half eps of Point Pleasant really really make me think that she's simply a talentless hack with a lot of scary places in her brain.

[ edited by jeebs on 2005-02-26 19:59 ]
I love James Marsters, but I want him to appear on a good show, not this one. Sorry Marti. I haven't decided which show I'm voting for ... I kinda like Arrested Development.
I'm supporting Point Pleasant. Despite its piss poor debut, it has got a lot better. The episode set in the dance hall was very good indeed and genuinely creepy and it's started to become must see TV for me.
The dance marathon episode was indeed quite good, but by the next week it was back to the same old bs.

I'd rather support a consistent show than one that seems to have had one good episode by pure chance.
While I'm not particularly inclined to turn this into a bash on Marti (the person who wrote "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" can't be all bad in my book), I was terribly underwhelmed by Point Pleasant. I think Marti has a lot of talent, but probably needs someone to keep her reined in. When left to her own devices, I think subtlety goes out the window. PP is a good concept - it's the execution that's sadly lacking.

I have to run with the crowd on this one - Veronica Mars captured my vote.
Yeah the dance marathan episode was certainly the best of the bunch (but that's compared to all the other episodes). But then I upgraded my cable to get more channels so PP instantly went off my radar. The JM thing feels like a ploy. PP just doesn't deserve to be saved IMHO. Elizabeth Harnois isn't a very good actress and certainly isn't a strong enough presence to be the focal point of a series. I voted for the flawed but interesting Veronica Mars.
It pains me to say it, but I couldn't give a hang whether PP is saved or not. As Jet Wolf wrote, there is a distinct lack of subtlety that drove me bonkers when I gave the show my attention for five or so episodes. I'm sad that Marti's first showrunner effort post-Buffy turned out so badly. I wish her much better luck next time.
I haven't watched VM, because I have cancellation anxiety due to ANGEL's ratings being up in season five and it being cancelled anyway.

[ edited by twiggy on 2005-02-27 16:22 ]
Yes, Veronica got my vote as well. I don't feel the vitriol over Point Pleasant that a lot of you feel... I just couldn't get interested in it so I pulled its timer from the PVR and replaced it with House. I'm so pressed for time that I have to cancel a show to put another one on the timer.
I looked forward to Point Pleasant and I really wanted it to do well for Marti, but so far it has been a huge disappointment. I feel like itís all been said and done before. I want to give it a chance to improve--and she says the show is finding its footing as it goes on--but I canít get past one of the most boring collection of actors I have ever seen. They make my skin crawl (and not in the way theyíre supposed to, either). It doesnít matter what the characters will face if I donít care about them. Grant Show does have the best role, but itís still pretty generic.
Veronica Mars was watchable from the start thanks to Kristen Bellís performance and I think it could get into even more of a groove if the momentum wasnít continually knocked down by repeats. Alyson Hannigan may have a recurring role and I wish James Marsters could have one too, maybe as a cop who got kicked off the force for drugs and is an affable beach bum now and who, for some reason he canít put his finger on, thinks Loganís half-sister looks so familiarÖ
I don't watch current TV at all, so I'll express no opinion about Point Pleasant. I will make two comments:

First, and maybe this is just growing up in the UK where a show got at least an entire season to prove itself, but it seems to me that judging anything by its first three or four episodes is a little hasty. Seems to me this is the face of TV these days (and another reason I choose not to watch): prove yourself *instantly*, or be rejected out of hand;

and Second, jeebs, I bet at least half a dozen scintillating BtVS episodes from Seasons 2 through 6 that "talentless hack with a lot of scary places in her brain" is not only wrong and insulting, it's ridiculous. I'm assuming you spoke out of anger at PP's failure to live up to expectations rather than from any actual appraisal of Marti's abilities.
The dance marathon ep was the BEST? Good gawd. Sorry Simon, gotta disagree with you. This show just isn't any good. Didn't you get bored with the endless stare-down contest between the two girls? Didn't you want to throw a shoe with all the bad editing? The hamming it up from Dina Meyer?

Grant Show could be the saving grace for this show, if they switch format and make it revolve around his character, Evil Minion Guy. He's got a great mix of scary/funny and believable acting skills which that little untried ingenue just can't pull off. Kill off Satan's daughter and let other stuff happen in the town. Introduce different characters regularly, and make Show the focus of the ... er... show.

C'mon Marti, we expect better from you.
So far, the only compelling viewing on Point Pleasant, I think, has been the opening sequence. Everything after that's a disappointment. Ditch the teenagers and half of the current adults on the show, bring in the 'father' (James Morrison) and give Boyd more screentime. Maybe then it'll survive.
Okay, I tried to give PP a fair chance. I saw every episode up until the "Dance" one. That one I liked (but agree with Willowy how stupid the stare down between the two girls was). But then I just completely forgot all about the show the past couple of weeks and didn't watch and I realized I just didn't care one little bit that I forgot to watch. Maybe if they had focused more on Grant Show's character from the beginning it would've been must see for me but I really don't care about any of the teenage characters and I don't care about any of the grown-up characters either.

I've recently started watching Veronica Mars and have seen about 7-8 episodes and that show deserves another season so I voted for that.

Sorry Marti! :(
Part of me thinks we might be unfair, because we donít know how much pressure Fox put on to have PP look the way it does and part of me thinks tough luck Marti, if you are the creator/executive producer of a show, the buck stops with you.

I am still hanging on and trying to like it (glutton for punishment). The Dance Hall episode was much better than the rest. Have to admit though, that my patience is wearing thin.

SNT, you make a good point about instant rejection of a show. I have thought about that quite a bit with regard to PP and my take is:
we all go through professional situations where we have to make it work right from the start. For example, if you do a sales presentation, you cannot come back a day later and say Ďoops I wasnít very good, can I do it againí. You get one shot, at which point you either made a sale (or at least started a negotiation) or you are plain dead and see what that does to your pay check. Why should show business be different? These guys know the rules, they have to bat hard from the very beginning and itís not like Marti isnít experienced in this sort of game. So sorry, I donít want to be harsh, but no sympathy from me here on that particular front.

PP didnít start well (lets be honest here). The issue with other shows is that they did start well, but never got the time for viewers to find them or really get into them before they got yanked. That is a whole different scenario.
Oh, and one more thing - just because she wants James Marsters for season 2 doesn't mean he will want to do it. He already turned her down for this show once. Instead, if PP is cancelled, she should try and write a show especially for him. Something about a Vampire with a mission would be a nice twist!
Noxon wrote alot of great episodes in Buffy S1-3 but she doesn't do well when given major control over plots. I voted for Veronica Mars. It's the only show I watch besides Lost.
As a great admirer of Marti Noxon I am possibly reading too much into some of the things being written here. However, over and above the disappointment with her new show I do sense a degree of general antipathy towards Noxon herself. That would be a pity and I hope I am wrong.

I am not much of a TV watcher and I don't have digital access, so I haven't been watching 'Point Pleasant'. However, a friend recently kindly sent me a video of the opening episode of the show. I wasn't overwhelmed, but I thought there was a spark of promise contained in it.
miranda, you're right about how show business works. My own preference is for the "show" rather than the "business" end of that equation. I'm not blind to economic realities but, as I said, all too often - in fact in nearly every case - it's the business that's driving the show. So, no, I don't think it's analagous to making a sale. Or if it is, it shouldn't be. In my perfect little imaginary world. The beauty, it seems to me, of the sheltered-from-economic concerns setup that used to exist in British (and I guess many other countries') TV, is that a show could evolve, at least for a season, so that a creator could plan out at least one cycle of growth. If, after one season, the show just hasn't given us anything, well then of course that's it. One season is all I would ask. And in today's reality, that just doesn't happen.

A relevant aside: watching my Wonderfalls DVD, and noting Todd's and Bryan's comments about what they had planned for seasons two and three just make me want to scream. It's the age-old struggle of artistic vision v. commercial reality, and my heart will always belong to the former.

And, again, I just disagree that Marti "doesn't do well when given major control over plots." If BtVS S6 is an indicator, I thought she did fine. And some of her episodes from Buffy Seasons Four and Five (Wild at Heart, New Moon Rising, Into the Woods) are among my favorites.
I am a huge fan of Buffy's last two seasons, and have always been one of Marti's big defenders. I never understood the antipathy towards her... But Point Pleasant, so far, has just been a bad show. I don't know if that's her fault or not. Maybe it's not. But to me, the dance marathon episode aside, the show hasn't even just been "mediocre or flawed but promising," but actively awful. I wish it wasn't. I love the concept, and I wanted Marti to prove her detractors wrong by knocking this one out of the park. But whatever the reason, she didn't, and we can only judge the show by what we've seen. And I think Fox would be completely justified in cancelling it.
While it's true a series can't always be judged by the first few episodes, Point Pleasant just doesn't have that special spark, first episode or any. All of my favorite shows: 24, Alias, Angel, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Firefly, Friends, Lost, Veronica Mars and Wonderfalls did, hooking me from the start. Having seen all the episodes so far, there has been slight improvement but not nearly enough and I believe I've given it more than a fair shot. Unlike some of you, I enjoyed Noxon's Buffy output, including seasons 6 & 7. I wish her the best of luck in her future endeavours but Point Pleasant deserves to be cancelled to give other shows a chance. Maybe there's an open spot for her on the writing staff of Tim Minear's The Inside? Oh yeah and bring Edlund too.

[ edited by Barry Woodward on 2005-02-26 22:28 ]
PP has been steadily improving. The two-hour pilot was horrendous but the characters have been fleshed out and a "nice" creepy tone has set into the show.

It might be too late to save the show, though. Fox is notoriously fickle (Arrested Development won an Emmy and is one of the most critically acclaimed shows on tv and it's facing the chopping block)and the fact that a show about "unmasking" celebrities did so much better ratings wise in PP's timeslot isn't a good indication Fox will be patient and let the show find a wider audience.
Personally i'm hoping Fox ditch Nanny 911, and put The inside on mondays at 8 come march

I think The Inside is too scary for 8pm.
I havenīt seen PP yet, so i canīt say if the show deserves another season or not.
I really like her work on Buffy, iīm sad for Marti. Better luck with her next projects.

Maybe there's an open spot for her on the writing staff of Tim Minear's The Inside?

And what about Jane Espensonīs "Utopia"?

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2005-02-27 02:25 ]
Utopia? I thought Jane Espenson was writing for and an executive producer on The Inside. What did I miss?

[ edited by Barry Woodward on 2005-02-26 22:20 ]
I'll chime in with my support for Marti's talent despite my dislike of PP. Plenty of Marti's episodes on BtVS were stellar. The woman can write and write well. (Ben Edlund can, too.) As for Marti's showrunning abilities, I think she did a great job with Buffy seasons 6&7. Apart from my personal big love for those seasons, the fact that Joss continues to speak so highly of her and didn't yank away her powers after season 6 says a lot for me. And Joss did have final control over the direction of both seasons. It wasn't all Marti no matter how you slice it, good or bad.

SNT, I hear your point about giving shows a longer chance to develop. I am all for the "show" winning out over the "business." Would we still have Firefly if we adhered to the UK system? It's painful to consider that possibility. But for now we're stuck with our system and it looks probable that PP will be canceled and thus we'll never know whether PP wouldn't have become brilliant in season 2. I can't help but doubt it. In PP's case, I believe that the "show" and the "business" were one and the same. PP has had steeply falling ratings and thus has been bad business not because people don't "get" the show's quality (e.g., Firefly, Wonderfalls) nor because the network didn't properly promote the show (e.g., see previous) but because once in a great while, perhaps, your average tv viewer perceives that a show is just not working and changes the channel. I say that with very little faith in the average viewer.

Of course, whether a show is "good" or "bad" is a subjective thing but it is telling that so many Whedonesquers - many of whom make up Marti's built-in fanbase - tried hard to like the show and ended up giving up on it. Whether five or six episodes is enough to make a judgment is a matter of opinion. I don't have the time or energy to devote more than five or six hours to something that I continue to actively dislike and fail to see promise in. Does this make me part of America's disposable/instant gratification society? I don't know.

I'm sad for Marti and PP's fans and I am cheering Marti on for future success. I firmly believe that she has the goods. But for whatever reason, PP doesn't seem to be working.
Screw Point Pleasant, I'm Voting For Veronica Mars!

Same here. I wish the best for Marti, and I've been watching Point Pleasant when I've had the time, but it is actually pretty bad, and doesn't really deserve to be back. VM, on the other hand, has been the best new show of this season, and is very much worth watching.

Sorry, Marti.
I think Marti is a terrific writer, very talented. I wonder if Fox was breathing down her neck and dictating certain aspects of the intial plotting and casting.
PP is the worst new (scripted) show of the season, IMO. I caught the Dance Hall ep and I thought it was nearly as awful as the other two eps I've seen. And if that's the best ep, then there's a problem. Not only would I be okay with its cancellation, I'm actually hoping for it. It's a waste of space, space that could be used to give another show a chance. FOX knows how it develop quality shows (House, anyone?), and certainly knows how to kill them, I hope they recognize when to kill the crappy ones. Because PP is one of them.
But if they cancel Point Pleasant, maybe James can land a role in something good.

Sorry, another vote for Veronica Mars here. I've already given up on PP.
They're asking for us to vote for the show, not the person. With this in mind, Veronica Mars wins hands down for being one of the most enjoyable shows on TV at the moment. I watch a few: 24, House, Lost, Joey and so on. I enjoy them all - love some of them, even. But the only one that manages to recapture some of the feeling I found while watching Buffy, is Veronica Mars. And it's a much more unique and original show than the high concept may make you think.

My vote is cast. If VM gets cancelled, I'll cry. If PP gets cancelled, I'll shrug and hope Marti gets a second chance.
Count me in on voting for Veronica. It is a quality show. I think Marti's comment about James is just a ploy to get his fans on board to save the show. I like James, and I'd love to see him on TV on a regular basis again. But in something good! I'd don't want to see any of my Buffy favorites on Point Pleasant.
"I think The Inside is too scary for 8pm. "

I know, but the only 9pm alternatives are thursday or friday, and i want this show to be a success.
While I thought the last 2 seasons of Buffy were horrid, I don't personalize or take issue with Marti Noxon, save perhaps for what I felt were some extremely bad decisions. Her earlier eps on Buffy were truly wonderful and even the best can err. My problem with PP is with the actors. I have the feeling they cast Elizabeth Harnois for her looks, not her talent. She was, by her own admission, not an actor at the time she was offered the chance to read; she was actually a tech worker. And because she does poorly, I think it affects much of the rest of the show. And there are worse actors than her on the show; I actually cringe whenever the young priest is on screen. This is one of those times where I get the feeling that Fox had major say in casting, and Marti did not. However it may be, I do not see this as bein salvageable, and adding either James Marsters or Amber Benson to the cast would be a big admission of exactly how wrong they went in casting, because they would be relying on Buffy folk to save it, give it cache, and show the others how to truly act.
I really wanted to like Point Pleasant... But after about halfway through I just had to admit it, the show is a disaster. So I'll be voting for Veronica Mars, definately!
Hopefully, A LOT of these t.v. shows will be taken off air and they'll be begging Joss to come up with something. I'm sure that he has a willing cast, devoted friends and writers, and the creativity for it.. Plus, all of these networks are seeing just how poorly they've done this season.
I think Point pleasant CAN get better in time...it just needs a little time to get an exact focus on what the hell it wants to be. You must admit that its better than "Tru Calling"...I think PP's alright, so I watch it...but i did vote for Veronica Mars, because...have you seen that show? Its great!
I voted for Veronica Mars as well. I have seen Point Pleasant, but like everyone's said, I found it lacked anything gripping.

Also, as The Inside's been mentioned above - does anyone know when it's airing? Can't find a date anywhere apart from the less than reliable TV Tome.
Sorry Marti, never thought i'd say this about a show you were involved in but Point Pleasant seriously sucks! I can't help but think it is already well beyond saving anyway, unlike Veronics Mars, that show at least seems to have some critical acclaim despite in not so amazing ratings. Being in the UK i haven't had the chance to see VM yet but i would have to vote for it over Point Pleasant, mainly because i HAVE seen some episodes of that show and really don't want to see more!

Marti should have taken some notes from American Gothic, a very similar kind of show but infinately superior in every way.
Jackal - No premiere date has been set yet, but The Inside should premiere sometime in March.
Sorry, Gio, but there is no way in the nine hells that Point Pleasant is better than Tru Calling. Tru had good plots, a great cast, and attitude. PP has what, exactly? Bees?
Hey, don't knock a show that uses bees to further it's plot. In the later seasons of the X-Files bees were used to explain how the aliens planned to spread their virus through the human population and ...

Okay, bad example.
Bees were in I Only Have Eyes for You which Marti wrote! And that was a good episode.
Like many here my husband and I tuned in to see "Point Pleasant" for no other reason than that it was Marti Noxon's show. After 4 1/2 episodes (VCR glitch) we gave up. As it happens we weren't all that taken with either "Wonderfalls" or "Firefly"'s first episodes but we gave it a few more weeks and both shows grew on us. I agree with some of the comments above that PP's has a dual problem with both shallow characterization and ineffective acting. In the end, we don't care what happens to the characters and since the "mystery" at the center of the show is character-based this is a fatal weakness.

Like many others I also voted for "Veronica Mars." The show is more plot than character driven (Veronica is the only character given any real development), but the lead is sufficiently interesting and the stories have just enough lines in the water that one or another mystery keeps being advanced along with the A plots. And a few characters such as Veronica's father and Logan have the possibility of becoming more developed and central to the show. Also, if one contrasts the "Veronica Mars" pilot with PP's the better show becomes rather apparent. I suspect VMs viewership problems have more to do with is weaker network, scheduling and marketing than because the program isn't sufficiently interesting to most viewers.

in the UK where a show got at least an entire season to prove itself, but it seems to me that judging anything by its first three or four episodes is a little hasty.

SNT, I'm curious, aren't most Brit and European seasons only about 6 episodes long? I would agree that just a few episodes are not a lot to base a decision on but if I remember right most program scheduling there works rather differently than the now standard 22 episode seasons in the U.S.
One (or three) good episodes does not a master make. And that's from somebody who liked both seasons 6 and 7. But PP needs to be put out of its misery. More importantly, PP needs to be put out of *my* misery. It's like a car accident - so awful, yet I can't bring myself not to watch.
Barry Woodward
Utopia? I thought Jane Espenson was writing for and an executive producer on The Inside. What did I miss?

I read some time ago that Jane is developing her own series, Utopia.
I found some "news" (i don`t read anything new from the show since months):

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=18702
http://www.janeespenson.com/news.html

----
I just saw The Mothman Phrophecies tonight, and the story took place in Point Pleasant, is this the same town of Martiīs series?
Does Martiīs PP use the same atmosphere of Point Pleasant movie?
Utopia hasn't received a pilot order for the fall 2005-2006 season and by now, Fox has greenlit all of the dramas they are going to. Fox has a strange development schedule and occasionally will greenlight pilots held over in the fall (like they did with Prison Break last fall), but it looks unlikely that Utopia will be become a pilot.

I think PP is better than Tru. PP had a rough start, but the recent episodes have been better. Most of the writing staff (other than Marti and Ben) are the same as Tru Calling's writers. So it's hard to say the writing of PP is any better/worse when it's mainly the same people, just Marti Noxon replacing Jon Feldman.

[ edited by FaithFan on 2005-02-27 02:32 ]
I agree with what seems to be the consensus here. Marti's great, and if I ever met her I'd gush with admiration, but Point Pleasant isn't very good, and Veronica Mars is MUCH better.

You know a show isn't good when you're AFRAID that your favorite Buffy actors will appear on it.
Faith> Your mileage may vary, of course, but I thought Tru to be endlessly better. The same writers perhaps, but the quality of the writing was better. There was more humor, the characters and casting were far superior. And if I didn't want to absolutely marry Eliza Dushku before...

TC struck a chord in me - I thought it was every bit as quality as Buffy, and was enraged that it was axed. But I'm almost praying for PP's demise.
Marti should have taken some notes from American Gothic, a very similar kind of show but infinately superior in every way.

Now that's a show that needs to be released on dvd!
Mal's Gal, I thought it already was...*goes to check amazon*

ETA: Nope, not yet, with no immediate plans to release it. Interesting in that they recommend Carnivale if you liked AG. Cool.

[ edited by Willowy on 2005-02-27 04:00 ]
Believe me, i've been waiting a very long time for the release of American Gothic on DVD. That is the very least this gem of a show deserves. And i can certainly see why they would compare it to Carnivale, another quality supernatural series that is head and shoulders above Point Pleasant.

Just thought i'd mention this but anyone who gets HBO should tune in to Carnivale. It's well worth your time and will have you addicted immediately. Also, if you can afford it, buy yourselves the DVD set of season one. The show isn't guaranteed a third season at the moment so we fans need to get the word out or we are going to lose yet another quality series.
Mosh Pit Demon, look to the right on the front page. The library @ flickr has a thread for Carnivale. Great discussion. Check it out!

ETA: I'm going to start a thread on a wish list for DVD. I've been waiting for Beauty and the Beast (the tv show) forever. Poetic, sweet, loving drama of a city girl and her leonine guy. Plus? Snyder!

[ edited by Willowy on 2005-02-27 05:02 ]
And i can certainly see why they would compare it to Carnivale, another quality supernatural series that is head and shoulders above Point Pleasant.

With the demise of quality Joss shows on tv these days, Carnivale has become my current obsession. The best show currently on the air, bar none, IMHO.
Ouch, poor Marti. This is the longest thread in a while and it's mainly devoted to saying how bad PP is.

Of course, I have to personally agree it is pretty darned bad. It looks like some network is trying to imitate some Buffy elements and mix them with the Omen and the OC and figure just mixing up those things will bring in the viewers. I'm still so surprised it's actually Marti's stuff. I like her work on BtVS but I do wonder if some writers don't need someone like Joss 'above' them to get their best work out. Maybe not everyone is cut out to be at the helm, you know?
Have to agree with everyone here. I was never a Marti basher, and I liked the last two seasons of Buffy, so I have no ax to grind concerning her talents. I wanted PP to be good and looked forward to its premiere. But I watched the first two episodes and was totally underwhelmed by the writing and the acting. I thought the casting was terrible. I missed the following episode because of business, and I forgot about it the next -- and just didn't care after that. Had I heard that it had improved, I probably would have given it another try, but I consistently heard the opposite. Sorry, Marti. Another vote here for VM.
I think that the problem was that we maybe expected too much from Point Pleasant. We had very high hopes that it would be the "Next Big Thing" and then when we found it to be mediocre at best there was a sudden backlash, as if it needed to be punished for not being Buffy 2.

Most of this will obviously come down to our respect for Marti. I loved her work on Buffy and so, when i heard that she was so heavily involved with PP, i naturally expected a lot, perhaps too much. Maybe if Point Pleasant had not had any Mutant Enemy connections we would have given it more time to prove itself, rather than to expect greatness from the start.

Whatever the reasons though, most people have made up their minds at this point. I can honestly say that i did give it a try but it just wasn't for me. Way too much O.C., not enough Buffy for my tastes. A shame that Marti has, in a way, been a victim of her previous excellent work but that is just the way it goes sometimes. Not everyone can create a Firefly after a Buffy and Angel i guess.
I meant to give Point Pleasant more of a chance beyond thos first two episodes, but I missed the third and then just couldn't be bothered to check out the rest. I'm always like that with new shows though. Miss any of the early first season episodes and I usually just give up and either forget about it or wait for the DVD.

Of the shows listed as being in serious Code Red trouble, I'd save Veronica Mars over Point Pleasant (even though I haven't seen VM, the overwhelmingly positive reception is enough. That, plus I remember the young blonde lead actress from her short stint on Deadwood and she was...amazing). I'd also save life as we know it over Point Pleasant. I stopped watching that series after about the sixth or seventh episode due to time constraints, but I really liked some of the characters and the acting for the most part was leaps and bounds ahead of PP's. Also, I'm a big fan of the British book that this somewhat-watered-down-Americanization is based on, Doing It. If only the TV series could be that verbose and honest about the typical teenage boy and his outlook on sex, relationships, and life in general. I also with they hadn't changed the setting and characters from British to American, but what can ya do (if anything, Harry Potter and to a much lesser degree Monty Python have proven that North Americans can handle, and even sometimes appreciate a British flavor in their entertainment. Hell, James Bond and Giles prove that too).

Less-threated-shows: Didn't try out anymore than the pilot of Jack & Bobby, just couldn't get into it. The gimmick really doesn't work for me either, but then I'm not fascinated by U.S. presidency in the least and really don't see the appeal.

I really like Taye Diggs' work (and smokin' body), but I haven't seen his show. I hear it's decent. Shame about the probable cancellation then, if true.

I guess I'd save Arrested Development from this list. I've only seen a couple random episodes from the first season's original airing, but I liked what I saw. I'll check it out on DVD eventually, can't usually keep track of half-hour comedies when they're airing. Forget to tape them, they end up getting shuffled around the schedule...they're just not lazy-viewer-friendly. Also, saving this would be appreciated by the most people. At least I hope this is pulling in higher numbers than Jack & Bobby, I mean it's on a large, more distributed network like Fox as opposed to The WB.

Happy to hear about House and Gilmore Girls almost for-sure coming back. House I'm planning on checking out on DVD eventually and I wouldn't want Gilmore Girls to end before the creator's ready, though that's another series I've only caught bits of and will eventually see on DVD as well.
I cannot figure out what the appeal of House is. I can't stop watching it, eventhough every episode there are a couple of cringe-worthy moments (Oh no, not the seizures AGAIN... it's like the A-team, you can set your watch to it).
It's all about Hugh Laurie's sexy and perfect comic timing and the vicarious thrill of hearing him say anything he wants to anybody.
He IS sexy, isn't he? And that was something I never expected to think. He looks all agonized and scruffy, but once he starts talking... I think its his eyes.

And I do absolutely love how his tact filter is set on Cordelia. I watch it every week too, Caroline.
Wait, Point Pleasant is still on? (really, that was my honest reaction) Another vote for Veronica.
Watched PP once and unfortunately, it didn't hook me enough to go back for another. And with all due respect to Marti, she just might be using James Marsters' possible future appearance to get the fandom to fight for this show.
SNT, I'm curious, aren't most Brit and European seasons only about 6 episodes long? I would agree that just a few episodes are not a lot to base a decision on but if I remember right most program scheduling there works rather differently than the now standard 22 episode seasons in the U.S.

They used to be, but have improved some what with a series normally arround 10 - 13 episodes, with the very mainstream high rated dramas doing the same as a normal American show (22+), and reality with whatever fits for the concept. Some shows go even longer, Prime time police drama The Bill which started with a 13 episode order for its first season in 1984, has been running continuously since 1987, currently twice a week, and will celebrate its 2000th episode this year, so not every thing is short run over here.

I'd say there were two other important differences, though. 1) 24 hour programming. Show does bad in the ratings, move it from 8pm to 11-30, or sunday afternoon, other slots need filling all the filmed episodes will be shown. 2) the BBC, for which critical acclaim, is more important than ratings (ratings are an important tool though for judging whether people like a show).

Saying that there are drawbacks, shows end because actors and writers dont have long term contracts and want to move on, this is especially troublesome for ensemble shows such as teachers, leaving either to lots of chops and changes to cast members, often without explanation. Whilst star centric vehicals end, becaue the show is a huge hit, and the actor signs up with another channel.

[ edited by Ocipital on 2005-02-27 21:08 ]
I just wanted to comment on Noxon antipathy. . .NOXON is the only reason I'm still giving Point Pleasant a chance. She and A. Busch are the only reasons I watched past the pilot. . .
I watch VM and tape House to watch later (unless VM is a repeat) and I agree my enjoyment is based solely on Hugh Laurie's ability to make House a complex and interesting character. The plots are incredibly contrived and the idea of the doctors actualy doing field work to get to the botom of why a patient is ill is eyerolling but Hugh Laurie is so great I can ignore those points. The supporting characters are slowly being fleshed out and I now really like Dr. Cuddy.
First time I saw House trailers I couldn't believe my eyes. I knew Laurie mainly as the goofy Prince George from BlackAdder and I had to rub my eyes to make sure this was really him!

I can honestly say he's the main reason I watch this. I usually hate 'case of the week' shows but this is (though repetitive like all of them) pretty funny, the medical stuff well thought out and...well Laurie is great. I haven't seen a pairing of an actor with a 'brilliant likeable jerk' character this good since Robbie Coltrane's Fitz in the classic 'Cracker' crime series.

Still have to watch VM though. From glimpses I have to say it looks a hell of a lot like a Buffy rip off but I'll withhold judgement until I actually watch it.
Add me to the VM voters. Just can't get excited about PP.
Yeah...I did Veronica Mars as well.....

Seriously. How could I not?
Keep VM. As for House, I'm a doctor and if any doctor actually did most of things House does, he or she would lose their job immediately, whether they were right or not. I watched 2 episodes, found myself so upset at the sheer idiocy of what they put on the screen, and never went back, regardless of how good Hugh Laurie is. Medically, it is stupid beyond belief.
No qualm or question here. VM deserves a reprieve from the crebbil. Er, axe. It's got some kinks that have yet to be completely ironed out, but nothing compared to the plethora of woes plaguing PP, of which miserably unmemorable dialogue, bland and/or stereotypical characters, lack of suspense, predictable plotting and unremarkable acting are the main culprits.

As a rule, I glom onto shows with occult/supernatural trappings (Medium would be my current fave in that category), but there's just nothing on PP that retains my attention or repays my time with a desire to contemplate its finer points. I guess because there aren't any? My husband -- he of the soft spot for genre shows of debatable quality -- has gamely watched three episodes with me, and even he can't stand it because it takes its own lack of substance so dead seriously.

We learned too quickly that Christina was the Devil's daughter. I thought it was a storytelling hallmark to always hold something in reserve? So far I don't see any indication of anything deeper in the show beyond what's already been laid out on the table. VM continues to intrigue, and that's why it got my vote.

I feel bad for MN. I've enjoyed a lot of her past work on Buffy, and I genuinely wanted to like it. I just don't think, at this point, that I've been given sufficient reason to.
If Veronica Mars wasn't on the list, I probably would've voted for PP since I think it does have some potential, even though it hasn't shown much of said "potential". Not every show is a "Lost" where the it's good right from the get go.

But having to choose from the two, Veronica Mars is just a better show at the moment. So, Sorry Marti.
90 comments on the suck-itude of "Point Pleasant?" Yeesh. Talk about overkill. I still want to give it a chance. I liked the dancehall episode, mainly because it featured Grant Show and minimized the teens (who, with the exception of Aubrey Dollar, are uniformly awful). Give Marti some time to smooth things out, everybody.

But my vote for Save My Show? Veronica Mars, because it so richly deserves every vote. Kristen Bell is electrifying, and even if VM still hasn't quite achieved Buffy-level awesomeness, I trust the creative team to keep pushing the envelope. As I've said before, we give it a second season, and maybe there'll be a VM-version of Surprise/Innocence. (Maybe Alyson will be there for that one, too.)

[ edited by cjl on 2005-02-28 17:04 ]
I think VM already had its Surprise/Innocence, before it even started. :-)

But 90 posts, most of which do nbot seem to enjoy PP and most coming from people who love Buffy and wish Marti well, does not sound good for the future of the show.
I'm tempted to vote for "Angel" again this year.
Somebody else actually suggesed that at another site i post at. It actually strikes me as a good idea. I mean, how cool would it be for a show cancelled a year ago to still prove more popular than anything on the box today. The WB are having a bad year as it is but that could really rub salt into the wound.

So c'mon guys, vote Angel! Won't do any good as far as getting the show back but it will feel good anyway! :)
The first 12 episodes of Tru Calling were virtually unwatchable. Once it was retooled starting in Episode 13, dropping the plotlines for Meridith, Lindsay, Gardez and Luc and bringing in Jack, it got a little better for certain episodes. (That was after Doug Petrie left, BTW).

If TC received 20 episodes to constantly change cast and retool time and time again, and PP has the same ratings as TC, why doesn't PP get that time.

You got to think the Marti and Dawn Parouse will be arguing the same thing to Gail Berman to keep PP on the air. How can Fox give all that extra time to TC but not PP?
Well, I went ahead and made a campaign announcement about it. Don't know if it will work or if fans will think the idea is completely silly, but I figure its worth a shot.
Killinj, i already sent my "Save Angel" email. Like i said before though, i'm under no illusions that it will have any immediate effect or bring back Angel as a series. However if it does nothing more than show how we are still a dedicated audience then it will be a good thing to do.

And if it helps to get a new slayerverse show off the ground then that would be good too, hehe.
I'll be voting for VM also.

Does anyone know how the ratings compare between PP and Tru Calling? I'm firmly in the camp that prefers TC to PP. The season really picked up after bringing in Jason Priestley (who usually doesn't impress me) and even the earlier episodes before that seemed better than anything I've seen on PP. And I'm not in the "I want to marry Eliza!" group (therefore a little more unbiased).
I've watched all of the PP episodes, and I was beginning to think it was improving. Now I think I simply lowered my expectations. Such a sad disappointment!

I am enjoying Lost, Veronica Mars, and Alias, but my absolute can't miss favorite is Carnivale. It is just wonderfully creepy and grimy. That's the show I'm hoping comes back next season.

With that said, I just began watching my Angel Season 5 DVD's. It's brought back awful feelings of longing and sadness. I'm reluctant to get through the set because it kills me that there will be no more episodes made. I wish I would get over it! It was, by far, my all time favorite show.

I also just finished the Firefly DVD set. Wow! I now have a crush on Adam Baldwin. And, boy do miss Joss!

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