That's an excellent interview and it's relatively recent as well. All good really.

Simon | May 23, 15:45 CET

Very good questions (and answers). Nice find.
If we see a third screening then we know Universal is slightly nuts - I mean it's rather UNFINISHED.
I love the Oceans 12 jab. Nice to know he sees that kind of cr*p come out of Hollywood and knows thats NOT what we want to see from him, though knowing Joss enough to worry what's in this movie...

TaraLivesOn | May 23, 16:02 CET

I'm very happy to hear that Joss isn't going to make any major changes to the film. I saw the first screening and thought it was perfection. Wake me up when September gets here!

MindPieces | May 23, 18:34 CET

Great interview. I'm looking forward to parts 2 & 3.

I'm not sure if a third screening would be nuts. Universal has to build word of mouth somehow, and so far the preview doesn't seem to have been widely shown on the big screen. This boggles my mind although I'll admit I'm no Hollywood marketing pro. So how else to market the film? The upcoming action figures and comics will be great, but people outside the world of such things - they are legion; they're the majority, actually - won't even notice. Of course, screenings that fans buy out within hours of any announcement (or even before the official announcement!) won't spread that far into the general populace, but it's a good start. For a few weeks there around the screenings, there was quite a lot of linking to the preview and discussion of the screened movie on sites that the internet-savvy but not necessarily Whedon-devoted might stumble upon.

I get why Joss is "terrified" that Universal doesn't know quite how to sell this film. If he's terrified, I'm terrified, too. Building a groundswell word of mouth via repeat preview screenings is an interesting idea and I'm not sure if we're at the point where we're reached diminishing returns. Fans talking about a cancelled TV show named Firefly and an upcoming movie named Serenity that no-one's previewed may not make much difference. Fans seeing Serenity and loving it and talking it up? Makes more difference. I'd sooner believe someone saying that a previewed movie they saw was fantastic than someone who talked my ear off about some cancelled show and then some movie that's coming out many months from now.

Back to the preview: where the hell is it? When is it going into wide release? What is going on? Why am I panicking? Must calm down.

phlebotinin | May 23, 18:53 CET

*sigh* Love him.

I am starting to get worried about the Firefly virgin I'm taking to the screening this week, though. (Ohmigod, ohmigod. Screening. This. Week.) She decided that she would go in "cold" to give me everyman feedback, and to give the yay or nay to other friends who are tired of my preaching. I was certain that she of the Merchant-Ivory love would embrace the series, if she'd give it a chance. But methinks (or meworries) the action of the movie sounds so actiony, that she's might not get to love these characters as we have loved them, and will have to vote nay to the rest of the girls, passing on the DVDs. Am I wrong?

When Joss said in this interview that he had to clip some of the delightful tangents he likes to take in order to keep the story/action tighter, as a fan, I accept that, and trust him completely. (I never saw Alien Resurrection, so my love is pure, and really, I can't blame him completely for Beer Bad.) But if I imagine myself Joss-ignorant, that ignorant self would tell you that I've never met a Sci-Fi I've liked, westerns ain't my thang, and I'll respectfully pass on this film and it's prequel series. I mean, I love a good ass-kicking as much as, if not more than, the next girl, but within the context of a story that grips me and characters I adore. (Hence, my non-ignorant self's love for Joss' work, and my sure-fire love of Serenity. I mentioned that i'm going, right? This. Thursday. To. The. Screening.)

Judging by the trailer and Universal's marketing know-how, they're clearly counting on the action (and, in space!) to get the butts in the seats, and they're probably right. Especially considering last weekend's box office. So, right on, guys. But as for me and mine, non of us have even seen or cared to see any Star Wars movies. Less than one hand's worth who are serious Buffy or Angel fans (besides y'all, of course). And exactly one friend who's consented to watch Firefly, and she, already a BtVS/AtS fan. Truly, my friends are smart and fun and interesting, but they're also girlie and struggle with their sense of this genre. Can they find something to love in Serenity, without a Firefly conversion first? One of whom responded to my evangelism with "Look at my shoes. Do they look like I've ever seen Star Wars? Shame on you, with your spaceship movie." Is it a lost cause?

So i've just talked myself out of the big concern....Serenity will appeal to the masses. I just have to figure out how to get my friends to care. And that's not really your problem. Sorry, I just threw up my own personal angst on this page. I know I'm over-thinking it. It's gonna be fine. It'll be fine. It'll all be fine.

barest_smidgen | May 23, 19:16 CET

He's always so insightful. And hey, I don't like Titanic as well. Cool!

Mack | May 23, 19:21 CET

If there was a third set of screenings for fans, I'd feel fatigued to say the least. *head explodes at the thought of anoter thread with 450 comments*. Personally, I'm more interested in the press screenings.

Some time soon Universal Pictures will have to start selling this movie to the general public and to the 'old media' in earnest. No I don't count the trailer as part of this. The first trailer was geared towards fans of the Whedonverse and genre lovers as a whole. Sold out screenings for fans and getting it reported in the likes of Slashdot.org is all very well but I want to see it getting mentioned in big regional newspapers. But I have yet to see this happen.

Simon | May 23, 19:26 CET

Great article, Simon. I like that site. They use Diablo (my own game fave) font.

"I get why Joss is "terrified" that Universal doesn't know quite how to sell this film. If he's terrified, I'm terrified, too."

phlebotin, be terrified in a good way! Don't let it be an overworrisome way. Start with the premise that Serenity won't have quite the financial bang or immediate attention as Ep III. Knowing that, it's nothing but success from viewers and critics alike after that. I looked one night for online commentary about Ep III, similar to what we have here. If it's out there, I couldn't find it. And the very good commentary I did find was very balanced. Here's what's good, here's what's not so good. Same as I and II, but general agreement III is better.
I'm only making the inevitable SW comparison because this is a big bang summer movie in space. And we're hoping for success. Let's use that example because it's an already set standard of comparison. I think GL invented the summer blockbuster.
We know Serenity is a blockbuster. I see it coming on as one of those sleeper successes. Color me crazy, but... we all know it's good and most of us haven't seen it. We just listen to those that have and it's plenty enough.

PS: re: preaching the Word:
I came to the realization this weekend I'm not going to preach much anymore, at least not to those I've preached to already. I'm beating my own head with my own anvil. Casual observers are nice but hey, do you want casual passive members in the club? Where do they fit in? They're great. We want them to like it. But Jeez. I'm sick of preaching to the unitiated right now. It now pains me to hear passive dismissal of my favorite toys ever. "Huh. Sounds interesting..." The coolest toys that ever were. I have a feeling that by October or Novemeber, at least a couple of people will say to me, "Isn't that the story you've been talking about?" Then they'll see for themselves. Case closed.

[ edited by April on 2005-05-23 17:33 ]

WhoIsOmega? | May 23, 19:28 CET

Great interview. I think I feel some of the same dread that Joss feeling about Serenity's promotion.

I've read the reviews that were posted here in previous threads, and I do share all the concern if Serenity will be accessible for uninitiated crowds.

I did whine a bit in some thread that I wanted a preview screening in Brazil. My wish. I do know that FIrefly's audience locally is very limited. I use to write a colums about the show, in one of the largest news site about american tv shows in Brazil, and my readership was very limited, so Serenity, is still an unknown territory for most people.

Fox did show the complete series here - all out of order - but Fox is a cable channel over here after all, and not a lot of people have access for cable tv. Statistically, most people acquire Cable TV in Brazil, not due the additional channels that they do provide, but to enhance the image quality from widely distributed channels that they do not need Cable to access.

It's not an entertainment event such as Star Wars, that the movie would be succesful, even if the movie was very mediocre. I know that market wise, the US market is what matter the most, for any decision concerning the future of the movie, but sometimes internationl markets can make a difference too.

The preview? Haven't seen it yet in a movie theather. Hope that Universal people at least have it running in their next big movie, which must be Spielberg's War of the Worlds, which might attract a public that could be interested in Serenity.

re: The huge moments of the movie:
I get Joss points, but still a lot of people considered those moments sort of pointless?

Numfar PTB | May 23, 19:35 CET

"Beer Bad"
Hee. It's a great eppy when you are a fan of pre-historical fiction.
:)

WhoIsOmega? | May 23, 19:35 CET

I agree on all but one point, Simon. The "old media" and the general public is where I most want this movie to be sold. But since this doesn't seem to be happening right now, I'd rather have one more preview screening than zip for the next couple of months. It might take that long before Universal starts selling to the "old media" in earnest.

The trailer, though? I very much count this as selling the movie to the general public - as long as it's shown in theaters. I've chosen to see tons of movies based solely on trailers that grabbed me and I'm part of the general public. I generally don't go to sci fi or fantasy movies but if a trailer looks exciting enough, my interest is piqued. It's the same story for me with heavy duty action flicks.

phlebotinin | May 23, 19:40 CET

me loved beer bad!

Firefly Flanatic | May 23, 19:41 CET

"Beer Bad"
I always have fun with Beer Bad. There are weaker episodes in the series, and Beer Bad is just plain funny, silly funny-ness.

And hey, I hated "Titanic" too.

Numfar PTB | May 23, 19:47 CET

Well in regards to the 'old media', a lot of entertainment stories these days are largely PR puff pieces. I hope Universal has the sense to issue a press release saying how the screenings were sold out in the matter of hours and how the fans are saliviating to see the movie. It's the sort of general interest story that papers would pick up and may just get Mr and Mrs Joe Public interested.

It's going to be hard for Serenity to maintain any sense of buzz over the summer in the face of competition from Batman, Fantastic Four, War of the Worlds etc. But hopefully Universal can cross this bridge when they come to it.

Simon | May 23, 19:48 CET

I mentioned the Universal previews of Serenity to some MBA marketing friends (yes, engineers and marketing people can co-exist in peace.)

I expected them to say, "Wow, the Universal marketing folks must have no idea how to sell the movie.". They didn't though.

They looked at each other and went, "Cool! Viral Marketing!"

Huh?

bookrats | May 23, 19:50 CET

"Viral Marketing" = expose a small population and hope it spreads like a virus, among infected parties. Only problem is, we've already done drunk the KoolAid. Real viral marketing would be to screen entirely with virgins, and let the new converts go forth, and spread the Good Word. We're already evangelizing like crazy, snake-charming, itinerant preachers.

And re: Beer Bad, i've heard both sides of the "what Joss meant" when he wrote, "Well, except for that one episode from S4." I think he was probably just being Joss and being silly, but it seems like lotsa folks took him seriously and tried to pinpoint an episode he might have meant that he disliked, and have landed on Beer Bad. I was just teasing, thusly.

barest_smidgen | May 23, 20:08 CET

OK.
Here's proof about the unitiated. If this don't convince ya, I don't know what will.
My boyfriend hated Buffy. (Don't get offended yet.) It's not all his fault. He had a warped ultra-Christian Deep South small town conservative Republican upbringing. He's recovering nicely. He saves stray animals, OK? Gets queasy from anything rated over PG. Furthermore, never sits still long enough to watch anything. Ever. Unless I force him to. Did it with Napoleon Dynamite last night. He loved it.
We almost broke up over Buffy. Demons, magic, evil. Made him edgy. I finally yelled one day. "If I can't watch Buffy in this house, you can't watch FOX NEWS!!!" The problem was solved. I began to watch Buffy in peace. He even says we almost broke up over Buffy. He understood me clearly from then on.
All I did was buy the Firefly DVD set. He's you're typical all-American guy these days, who's greatest pleasure is his animals and fishing, not stories.
He freakin' loved Firefly. I mean, totally dug it. First round of watching. He watched them all in three or four nights. On his own.
We've seen like one movie together in the theater together in three or four years. Bourne Supremacy. He loved it. Has agreed to see Ep III and Serenity with me already. We're talking uncharted waters here.
I'm doing an even better focus group now. I gave the DVDs to his brother, who's best job ever (for him) was smack in the center of the State of Florida Tallahassee capital building, alongside (insert creative expletives here) "Governor" Bush. *gulp* He's an ultra-conservative, hard core Southern boy, with something of a sense of style. He and his girlfriend got engaged on the steps of some big building in DC. Getting the picture? I should know in a matter of days his reaction. He actually does love movies and good TV. He thinks 24 is the best show ever, after all.
Will be back to report the findings of my focus group soon!!!

(uncharted waters? unchartered waters? I give up.)

[ edited by April on 2005-05-23 18:19 ]

[ edited by April on 2005-05-23 18:22 ]

WhoIsOmega? | May 23, 20:17 CET

April, that was priceless. Just priceless. Thank you, ever so, for the giggles. It's a heartening tale, for sure. But I sense that the boys are an easier Serenity mark, dontcha think? (Depsite your Fox-news-challenged-Love.)

What I really want to know about is the ultra-conservative, hard-core Southern boy's fiance. When you figure out how to stop her from saying "Shame on you, with your spaceship movie," as my Carrie-Bradshaw-wannabe-girls say to me, and you share the vodoo magicks with which you got her to don a brownish-colored coat with an orange hand-knitted hat atop her flawless -do, then you, April, will be "April. My Big Damn Hero." ; )

barest_smidgen | May 23, 20:38 CET

barest_smidgen, just show 'em a picture of Captain Tightpants and that ought to do it!

Firefly Flanatic | May 23, 20:43 CET

I came to the realization this weekend I'm not going to preach much anymore, at least not to those I've preached to already.

I can only guess at your frustration. I've done no preaching, besides lending out my DVD set twice to friends eager-ish to see the show, and talking up the movie to people with generally the same interests. I'm luckier than you, barest_smidgen because most of the people I know are SF-friendly. I've already talked up the movie to people (once at a video game party!), and have already started thinking about the possibility of a midnight showing gathering. I love the thought of getting as many geeks as possible to show up to get their minds blown apart. And for me, talking up the movie is far easier than a TV show -- movies are social outings, unlike most of TV, and for every time you plan to see Serenity, invite some friends along. That's how I get dragged to see movies that aren't really good at all (*cough*Ring 2*cough*), only now I'm returning the favor with an actually GOOD and COOL movie. I figure I can get 10+ admissions in the first two weeks alone, just by making it a social event with fellow geeky people.

And I too love "Beer Bad", but then I love all things deeply silly. "Fire pretty", indeed.

dottikin | May 23, 20:50 CET

Ah, yes, Flanatic. I had been thinking about a nekkid Mal as incentive. (And thinking...and thinking....oh, sorry.) And then, the following bizarro-ness occurred. I was trying to convert my first (and only) flan. She's a fellow BtVS-lover, and the one who convinced me to give Angel a go, when I wavered. Still, she was busy, had other shows to watch, was broke, would get to it, at some point, she promised, etc. And then, one day, this: "Wait a minute. That really cute red-head from A Knight's Tale is in that spaceship show you want me to watch? Well, why didn't you say so? I'm in!"

Who knew it was Wash's juicy bits that were the key to the kingdom? Who knew, indeed. It takes all kinds.

barest_smidgen | May 23, 20:56 CET

Barest_smidgen, I have the same problem. In fact, I haven't talked up either Firefly or Serenity that much among my friends (*ducks from flying objects*) because I know how they all feel about Sci-Fi. Pretty much the same way I feel, actually. I figure when it gets closer, and the movie is actually in (or about to be in) theaters, I'll round up a bunch of them and convince them to go with me. But it's definitely going to be a hard sell. I haven't even managed to convert more than one friend to Buffy, though I've tried with a bunch of them. One friend already adores BtVS, but she's expressed zero interest in Firefly, despite my accolades for it. *sigh*
Even my fiance, who loves BtVS and Angel, has yet to watch more than the pilot, and the DVDs are right in front of him. The western-in-space concept just doesn't grab him. I've made him promise he needs to watch it all before the movie, though.

I think women are a tougher sell than men, and any non-sci-fi folks are a tough sell in particular. I'll do my best, but lord knows I wouldn't know how to market this – I have a hard time just explaining the premise to people and why i like it. And I'm normally fairly articulate. My hope? That the mainstream critics, or at least some of them, love it as well, and I can use the reviews to get some folks on my side.

acp | May 23, 21:07 CET

barest_smidgen, as a younger student I convinced two very different girls to watch Last of the Mohicans in the theater with me (I went four times). All I had to do was point out there were gorgeous wild men running through the forest clad in deerskin throughout the whole picture. And they kicked major butt! They loved it, too! I suspect the good script convinced them (because the novel sure was hard to get through) too.

WhoIsOmega? | May 23, 21:10 CET

I saw Serenity, and I'm seeing it again in 3 days (ohmygod!*faints*), and in the theater I was so overwhelmed by just being there, by the fandom, by the disbelief that it was really happening, that details of the movie have blurred. There was also the thing with the reels being switched (which, thank sky bully, they fixed). So I haven't see the movie linearly yet.

I can say this: it is a sci-fi action movie, but it tells an emotional story. This movie is so much more than what the trailer made it seem. This movie works on more than one level: action, suspense, great sfx for those who only care about that sort of thing, and a story with meaning and layers, that for those of us who enjoy disecting metaphor and subtext, that's all there. It's also about the characters, and for fans, the movie continues the story, and gives us MORE.

So, I'm not too worried about how the general movie-going public will react to this film. It's also got tons of funny, and that's also a good thing. Everyone loves to laugh. I'm very positive about Serenity's fate. I just think now is the time to start promoting it however we can, to make sure that people at least recognize the title "Serenity" when the movie's released. And I started a thread in flickr for discussing what we can do to get the word out, so go there if you're intersted.

electricspacegirl | May 23, 22:14 CET

My boyfriend hated Buffy. (Don't get offended yet.) It's not all his fault. He had a warped ultra-Christian Deep South small town conservative Republican upbringing.

Hey I'm a fairly conservative christian Republican and I heart the Buffster, Angel, Captain Mal and the Crew (sounds like a late seventies soul group) A story is a story, sheesh. Quality stories will unite rather then divide if just given the chance.

Nancy Boy hair Gel | May 23, 23:44 CET

It really depends on the warped ultra-Christian Deep Smouth small town conservative Republican though. "Buffy" goes beyond just basic core life values. It's justified in the capacity of imagination in the viewer as equally as the emotional maturity created by inevitable life experience. What I'm saying is that it's only a matter of time before everyone is lucky enough to discover "Buffy" at the point in his/her life when they can fully appreciate it.

Phew.

TheZeppo | May 23, 23:47 CET

barest_smidgen wrote:



Now just think about it, Kaylee is in the movie! Kaylee's the girliest girl ever, pretty, strong, smart and witty and I am sure very much like your friends. Surely they can identify with her? As a dyke married to a very girly girl, I can say with certainty that Kaylee is absolutely my favorite Firefly character. She likes pretty things but she is also -- like my wife -- a very good engineer, a natural. There's no contradiction there, and that's a very feminist thing, and I hope that in Serenity Joss will give newbies a way to see this about her.

Must your friends *really* go in blind? Can you not show them pertinent Kaylee episodes in advance?

I'm also a bit puzzled by "[they] struggle with their sense of this genre". Nothing is more feminist than SF, at least in the form of the written word. What other genre has ever spawned so many feminist fiction writers (LeGuin, Tiptree, Russ, Zimmer Bradley, and so on)? Imagining future/hypothetical worlds is a great opportunity to imagine cultures and societies unlike our own, where women have much broader opportunities than they do now.

Look also at Zoe -- every bit as much a soldier as Mal, her status as such never questioned (unlike female soldiers in the U.S. military today, who aren't allowed "in combat").

Finally look even at Inara, or perhaps especially at Inara, a re-envisioning of prostitution that shows unprecedented agency and self-determination in the profession, to the extent that a Companion is very much unlike a 20th century prostitute.

chickenbird | May 24, 00:16 CET

I understand Joss being terrified. His baby is on the line. And it's an unfortunate truth that women generally don't tend to be attracted to SF, especially if it's big with the ships and fighting. I get that it's true because most women I know are like that -- mention aliens or lasers or flying cars and it's "ewww". I don't really understand that perspective, though, because I've always been one of those oddball geek girls who loved anything in the SF/fantasy genre. I mean, I used to read Starlog magazine in my teens, after all, and pore through Andre Norton and Robert Heinlein books on sunny summer afternoons in my original Star Trek-decorated bedroom, when everyone else I knew was sunbathing or flirting with boys at the local mall.

In my experience, selling SF to boys is easy. Just talk about the the adventure of men in space. Appeal to their senses with impressions of a limitless vista waiting to be explored. Relate it to the struggle of everyday life in a strange, sometimes hostile environment when what a man is made of determines how far he'll go. Inner strength displayed through confrontation with the elements and all that. Then, if he's still reticent, discuss the stunning visual effects and how what's onscreen looks like a reality that can be stepped into. A guy who's open to exploring his sense of his own power, and the way he perceives the world around him through the media (books, movies, TV) he absorbs, will most likely be intrigued. For others, the idea of cool explosions, futuristic ships in space and kick-ass action sequences will be enough.

Girls? Well, if they're like me, it's easier than for boys. Just talk up the relationships and the depth of the characterizations. While their interest is piqued by the human vs. machine interaction concept, most geek girls are turned off by SF that lacks ample heart and humanity. Joss excells at feeding both the external and internal hungers for visual spectacle and visceral satisfaction, so he satisfies both. For girls who aren't like me, the job is trickier. You're still selling them the emotional aspects of the story, but you've got to downplay the hardcore SF elements. As strange as it is for me to comprehend, there are people out there who just don't care about anything that doesn't exist in the "real world". That is, if it comes completely out of someone's head, it's silly and not worth the time to look into because -- they mistakenly believe -- it won't relate to the world they live in. (And for the record, I'm crazy about shoes and clothes and other girly crap, too, but in no way does that dictate what movies, books or TV I should or shouldn't feel are appropriate to enjoy. I am large, I contain multitudes :)

We all know this is exactly the worst misperception to have when it comes to Joss's projects. No matter what trappings they wear, they're always totally about the world we live in, and about asking questions that can help us examine our lives and be better human beings, right here. Right now.

And showing pictures of Cap'n Tightpants (or Jayne, Wash, Simon or Book, depending on your viewer's tastes) sure couldn't hurt ;)

(Most of all, finding that balance between being enthusiastic and yet not scaring people seems to have elicited the most positive responses from my non-Joss-aware friends -- several are planning on going to the premiere with my husband and me in September, and I have hopes of dragging in a few more by then. They'll all come, if they know what's good for 'em!)

Wiseblood | May 24, 00:26 CET

"I had a story I thought was worth telling.."

Talk about an understatement. Outstanding read, Amy Lee.

Madhatter | May 24, 00:27 CET

Shameless promotion, but this is an excellent and comprehensive site devoted to feminist/female SF that was created by a grad school friend. BTW, chickenbird: I agree absolutely with your assessment of Kaylee and the others.

SoddingNancyTribe | May 24, 00:33 CET

I never saw Kaylee in that context before. To me, she's normal. I grew up with a strong mother who is the head of the house, and a dad who is thoughtful and timid intellectual. My older brother is a feminist. I have also been surrounded by people who defy sexist stereotypes, so I never used to think that was anything but common.

Boy, was it a blow to get out into the real world and see how other people perceived the roles women and men should to have in society.

Wow, now Kaylee's my hero!



Agreed.

electricspacegirl | May 24, 00:50 CET

Wiseblood, you've made some great points.



The corollary in historical fiction and the "Western" or "old west" themed fiction is, that's not modern, it doesn't relate to the world I live in today. We can all see the fallacy in that (those who don't remember their history are condemned to repeat it, blah blah). Thus I think it's no accident that Joss has combined these two genres of SF and Westerns. AHEM!

No one is better than Joss at showing people viscerally how things apparently remote from modern times and culture are in fact hugely relevant.

SoddingNancyTribe, thanks for the comprehensive list. I'm just scanning through it and going, "oh, how could I have neglected to mention author X?" (e.g. Octavia Butler!)

chickenbird | May 24, 00:56 CET

electricspacegirl, I'm so glad Kaylee is your hero now! We all need to quote you when people wonder how a crew member like Kaylee is a Big Damn Hero just like everyone else. Sure, she can't shoot a gun like River or some of the guys, but neither can Simon, and yet Kaylee has lots of super heroic traits (and so does Simon). Keeping the ship running and fixing people up when they get hurt, for example? Quite heroic.

chickenbird | May 24, 01:00 CET

We can lobby and imagine and argue all we like, but Joss's works are not for everyone. I tried to sell my best friend since 10th grade (and hey, the wheel was still a fresh idea then) on Buffy. Too soapy, too much about high school life. He's definitely a boy's boy, as Wiseblood describes.

We became friends over Star Trek and science fiction (and video games and sports and other guy stuff) in general. Firefly ain't hard science fiction, really, because the science is mostly in the background. Just part of life. Still, it is so well written, acted, and just imagined in every way, I thought he would at least like it. He patiently sat through the four or so episodes I showed him. And is just not interested in watching more. He likes rich characterization, but doesn't want to see a "soap opera." Maybe even more important, he likes self-contained episodes. He doesn't want to see continuity problems, but he doesn't want to have to see the episodes in order and keep track of the relationships. This is not a shallow guy. He likes lots of genres: classic movies, noir, political melodramas, musicals, etc. Some of his favorite movies are "all talk." We have similar opinions on a lot of films and shows.

I haven't been able to get into the screenings, so I don't have much to go on. I hope Serenity is self-contained and fast-paced enough for my friend. But maybe not.

I love that Joss hates Titanic. IMO it's the most overrated movie of the Nineties. (#2 for me is probably Twister.) Not the worst movie ever, but just not very good. I was really po'd that L.A. Confidential lost Best Picture to Titanic. But we're in the minority. I hope Serenity fans won't be.

RBB | May 24, 01:16 CET

Personally, I have friends far to the right and far to the left politically and from one end of the spectrum to the other on religion and never has it had any impact on whether they liked Joss-verse shows or not. Aside from the occasional minor bristling at magic use, from the really ultra-religious and believe me there are corollaries from the other side. Things like, not enough cast diversity and OMG they killed a lesbian? BURN JOSS IN EFFIGY! So I don't think its fair to ping one side without pinging the other, and goodness knows I'm all about pinging all of them :) We may not all agree on everything, but we can agree that Joss rules, so lets not turn this opportunity to come closer into an opportunity for divisive politico soapboxing. I know, I know, phrasing too strong given humorous intent of posting, but you know what I mean. Just warding off the drama *hex hex* :)

A lot of what is considered 'hard' scifi is also bad scifi to a lot of people. Stories about tech rather than stories about people with the tech there in the background. This is not to say that there aren't good 'hard' scifi stories, heavens no, but they are the ones with strong, believable characters.

I was somewhat surprised to be asked at the screening why it was I that there were so few female fans in attendance when the numbers appeared to in the 60-40/65/35 range. I think that mainstream scifi is finally growing up and moving away from futuristic action movie and more towards what I consider to be good scifi -- tech, sure, but with characters.

barest_smidgen, we have talked at more length about this and I am going to perform an experiment involving some Carrie-Bradshaw-wannabes and let you know how it goes :P

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-05-24 00:30 ]

zeitgeist | May 24, 02:21 CET

True, true, RBB. It's a very fair point, yours. And probably one worth facing, however painful.

chickenbird: Thank you for your thoughtful response. You're right, of course, that Kaylee and Zoe are wonderful reasons for a woman to embrace Firefly & Serenity. (Not to mention our Cap'n Tightpants, but he's not the point, here.) But, see, when I said that "they struggle with their sense of the genre," I chose my words very carefully. It's not that they've sampled lots of Sci-fi or read the writers you've mentioned, and rejected their message. Instead, it's their sense of what they'd find there which makes them extremely reticent to ever even give it a try. That's the trouble. And it's hard to push past that seemingly ingrained barrier that's there.

Just as it may be a tougher sell to get your great-uncle vs. your great-aunt to watch Steel Magnolias on an October Sunday afternoon, it's simply true that Sci-fi has found a broader male audience. Of course, that's an gross generalization, but generalizations are called that, i think, because they're generally found to be the case. Of course, there are bright, fascinating, broad-minded women in girlie shoes who can't get enough of this stuff, and many of them, no doubt, are on this site, but more women like that just aren't in the loop. And to pretend differently makes it too simple to skip past the very real fact that there are lots and lots of women who might adore the world(s) of our Big Damn Heros, but who's reaction out of the gate is "that's not for me." And who knows where that comes from? Cultural norms? An annoying older brother? Genetics? A negative experience with some lesser Sci-fi effort early on?

It's possible, of course, for someone to just not like Sci-Fi. It doesn't automatically mean they are shallow, or close-minded, or anti-feminist, etc. For the most part, me no likey Sci-fi. But there's something very genre-bending/blending about Joss' work, that has opened me up to consider things that I simply wouldn't have before. How cool. And as a Flan trying to inspire some converts, it helps me to be honest with myself about from whence I came, as I try to understand how to get some of my girls to give it a go. That's all. That, and chickenbird's empassioned argument is compelling me to take on some of the unfamiliar reco's she's made, to see if I might change my me-no-likey mind. ; )

ETA: And zeitgeist, my friend, best of luck with the ladies. Let me know how that goes. In the meantime, I wish you cold beer, and loose women. >: )

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2005-05-24 00:37 ]

barest_smidgen | May 24, 02:33 CET

crud I forgot to make reference to Captain Tightpants and insinuate that barest_smidgen would be in her bunk... oh well, see what happens when I don't post for a few days? WAY out of practice :)



RBB -- if it isn't self-contained and fast paced enough for your friend, please pat them down and confiscate the meth.

ETA: barest_smidgen, I screwed up and got cold, bitter women and loose beer... woe is me!

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-05-24 00:42 ]

zeitgeist | May 24, 02:36 CET

I have to agree Firefly is not for everyone. I got my girl into watching Buffy/Angel, she used to make fun of me for watching or say i only watch it for the hot chicks. I always told her and my friends the show is just so well written (this was the first season back in 97 before i even knew who Joss was). I always said its a good, funny, yet deep show. Finally she watched the first season on dvd and has since watched every episode and also was disapointed when Angel was cancelled. Now, I tried to get her to watch Firefly and she watched the first 5 episodes and just didnt like it, felt it was a little boring, she tried to get into it but can't. However, she will finish it for me cause i keep telling her the movie is going to blow her socks off.

Gunn 2 N's | May 24, 02:42 CET

Hehe, reminds me of my poor friend whose dad always used to tease him about watching 'that soap opera' for watching Buffy.

zeitgeist | May 24, 02:44 CET

Great interview. Been a while since there's been a talk with Joss that had some meat on the bone. I hope by the time Serenity is released, Filmforce might do another one or something.

Loved the Oceans 12 remark too. Sure kinda funny, killer cast, but what really happens in either of those films that isn't basically just all of them standing around in expensive suits looking pretty and cool? At no point do I ever feel anyone is in any danger. They're all constantly on top of the world and you know there are so many 'Oh A and B were really working for C the whole time....huh.' moments that they're boring before they even happen.

No, the nay sayers can scream their loudest but I know that when I see something penned by Joss, anything can happen and that's one of the major reasons I love his work. The movie blew my socks off. But it's true that it won't be for everyone. I know this just happens to be my taste too, but even objectively viewed, the writing is so tight and original, I don't see how anyone could have a genuinely bad time watching it, fan or no.



*enthusiastically shakes RBB's hand*

I hear that and I second and third that!. Loved Joss' remark too. Titanic wasn't awful or anything, but after all that impossible hype I was really let down when I saw it. Plenty of problems with the writing and the characters and while I can still see why it was a success in the mainstream, I will never get why it was *that* big.

LA Confidential on the other hand was a refined modern classic. And even though it didn't set the box office on fire, with DVD sales and word of mouth, it's considered to be just that by now, so if Serenity goes that way....there are worse fates for a movie.

EdDantes | May 24, 02:50 CET

To stay happily OT: I can't say that Titanic was the most overrated movie of the 90s, although I'm sure I'd agree if I ever actually had sat down and watched it (which I haven't, because if it looks like dreck and smells like dreck . . . ), but Twister as #2? Is Twister even a rated movie?

Now, to be even more contentious, L.A. Confidential was terrific but Kim Basinger never ever should have received an Oscar for that part - that year was Julianne Moore's for Boogie Nights. But I'm not bitter . . . And my vote for most overrated movie of the last decade goes to Moulin Rouge *runs away, remembers he's a mod, runs back again*

On topic again: RBB is quite right. I have friends whose tastes are almost perfectly congruent with my own, save for one or two areas, those areas typically being "Sci-Fi/fantasy," BtVS, and/or "comic books." Now tastes can reasonably differ. The problem I have is the air of condescension some people (including those I have named my friends) affect when I suggest dipping a toe into these waters. Now how come I'll give alt country music (which I now love) or Wagner (eh, not so much) a good try, but certain people shrink in visible horror at the thought that Whedon's Firefly or Gaiman's Sandman might constitute art? That kind of foreclosing of otherwise open minds just pisses me off.

SoddingNancyTribe | May 24, 03:06 CET

I also thought Titanic was *way* over-hyped. Not horrific, but that last scene? I just didn't care...
Almost all of my friends I would consider non-genre in their taste (eliminating sci-fi, fantasy, etc), and a few years ago, I would have put myself in that category too. I'm still not a big sci-fi fan in the sense that the science/technology of it, special-effects, etc., does very little to move me. I'm about the story, and the characters, and the relationships. I like those characters and relationships to be as realistic as possible. The revelation for me with Joss's work has been that sci-fi/fantasy CAN provide a background for very "real" stories/emotions/characters. The genre is just a vehicle. In fact, my love of all things Joss-ian has led me to explore a bit more into the genre realm: the Sandman series, some Ursula LeGuin, etc.
But, that said, it can still be a tough sell to others. I find myself talking a lot about the excellent writing when justifying my Buffy love to others (which is often). I talk about the fabulous writing and great characters and use of metaphor, and minizing the vampire/fantasy element. Which makes sense, because as much as I love Buffy's plots, it's not the vampires and demons and witches that got me to watch it.
Same thing for Firefly, though I find that a slightly tougher sell for some reason. Maybe because BtVS at least got the critical approval, so I can use that to back me up. Maybe because sci-fi (at least among my friends) has a more negative connotation. (I agree with barest_smidgen above - it's not for any good reason, necessarily, and i know there is plenty of great, intelligent, feminist sci-fi out there, but it's about the preconceived notions people bring and their expectations of it, which can be an awfully big barrier).
That's one of the reasons I'm hoping for some mainstream critics to jump on board, and convince people that even non-sci-fi folks should give this a try - that it's not just about the special effects and spaceships and futuristic worlds and action scenes. Here's hoping.
On a related note, i've never understood why, with all the uphill battle "genre" shows have – and how many people dismiss them as geek material without even looking at them - there are a few that break so totally out into the mainstream that they become mega-hits. Star Wars, LOTR, all the super-hero films that have been such enormous blockbusters lately. What makes those particular ones worthy of general mass approval, while anything else that smacks of genre gets relegated to geekdom? I've never quite understood...

acp | May 24, 03:18 CET

I liked Titanic...

Shut up. I was in fifth grade.

Daromaius | May 24, 04:02 CET

Oh dear, I just re-read my post. Didn't italicize "warped." It is the first adjective, meaning it's the most general. I'm in love with where I am. It's totally diverse. Good people are of course in all areas of the spectrum, without a doubt. However, when anyone's views are warped, it leads to bad things. From anyone, no matter how good the original intentions. The only thing I have to say about religion is that it inspires a lot of people to do a lot of wonderful things. In return, a few number do a few small bad things. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with the bluntness.
Warped.
You can't find real humor in anything you haven't lived. The Joss man shows us every time. Human stuff.

[ edited by April on 2005-05-24 02:20 ]

[ edited by April on 2005-05-24 02:21 ]

[ edited by April on 2005-05-24 02:21 ]

WhoIsOmega? | May 24, 04:06 CET

I'm still giggling, April. Seems to me you were exaggerating to make a silly point, and i heart your earlier post.

barest_smidgen | May 24, 04:23 CET

I heart yours as well!

As for geek movies, hey, about 8 of the 10 all time grossing movies were scifi/fantasy. Because they are not so closely tied to specific cultures, and they translate well across languages and other boundaries.
I love that Whedonesque is not a totally North American-centered board.

WhoIsOmega? | May 24, 04:28 CET

SNT, Yes! The nose up in the air thing drives me crazy. I am also someone who likes to give things a try and am always willing to give somehting new a chance if it is suggested. Meanwhile, when I suggested that a friend check out some movie or another that I had found very enjoyable, I was told "I never go to see movies that are that popular because they have to be made to appeal to the lowest common denomenator." Geez! Do some people think at all before they speak? ...and he wonders why we don't talk much anymore.

Another friend has said similar kinds of snooty things, though not quite as bad, and has expressed worry at my interest in Joss's work. What is it? Can't life have some element of fun and passion in it? I have not even tried to convert him, though he is on my list to drag to see Serenity with me. He is into Science Fiction so he should not object to going to see it. The funny thing is, it turns out that an old friend of his who lives in San Francisco has been a BtVS fan for years, long before I realized how incredibly good it was. So he has got two friends, one male, one female, who he has known and apparently respected for decades who are big fans of something and he won't give it the benefit of the doubt. It totally confounds me.

BTW, I keep wondering if that friend of his from SF, who I have heard about for years but never met, frequents Whedonesque. Male, with a friend in NJ...maybe a Columbia graduate? ...anybody? (My e-mail address is in my profile.)

As far as females often avoiding Science Fiction, I think the reasons are many. I have not read much SF for the last, oh, decades, (There's just no time, anymore.) but I remember a lot of SF was geared towards males, even when it was written by women. As a kid, I was turned off by SF (and chess) by that annoying older brother barest_smidgen mentioned, but I got over it and later really enjoyed the SF that was about people, in whatever guise. Like the folks I talked about above, some people will dismiss whatever thay have decided, or been led to believe, does not fit with their view of themselves. SF fans definately have an image...

As far as certain things being grabbed by the mainstream out of SF and the rest left to be looked down upon, that has been happening for a long time. When the mainstream finds a SF author or book, very often that author or book is suddenly not considered part of SF. Unfortunately I am really tired and need to go map-out some Tae Kwon Do forms, so I am drawing blanks on all of the names, but i'm sure someone will come up with them for me. Thanks in advance. ;-)

newcj | May 24, 05:04 CET

Hey all. I wanted to come forth and say I conducted this interview with Joss. Thanks for all the kind words, and glad it brought on so much debate and discussion. Look forward to parts 2 and 3! Thanks again.
~Jesse~

TheZeppo | May 24, 05:18 CET

I have a friend who doesn't like continuity heavy shows. She likes to be able to catch an episode here and there, and if she misses an ep, it's not a problem. She does have ADD though, and that may be a factor in her ability to concentrate.

This kind of compelling drama is like reading a novel that you can't put down. The Whedonverse is literature on TV (and now in a movie). People just don't get that TV can be like the best fiction ever written. Most of the people I know in the real world dislike TV for just being TV. They are the most difficult to get interested in Buffy, Angel, or Firefly.

I did convert my best friend though. She has never been a TV-watcher, and the only show she got hooked on was Six Feet Under. She recently finished Buffy, and is working her way through Angel. At one point a few weeks ago, she actually left me a message on my phone thanking me emphatically for getting her into Buffy. That's a wonderful thing, when someone who's skeptical finally gets it.

And she is now willing to try Firefly again. With her, it seems like I have to introduce the series to her so she can enter into it with interest. I tell her the philosophical theme and a little about the characters. She's a littleput off by Firefly because it's set in space. She probably imagines a Star Trek type universe.

She saw a few episodes but just didn't care about the characters. At the time, we were watching Firefly with other people and she seemed a bit distracted. I told her I'll loan the DVDs to her and she can watch them by herself. I think this time have a different take on it. And if I tell her about Kaylee being a feminist icon, it may interest her more.

Btw, I hated Titanic too, though I did start crying in the end. I know I was just being manipulated by the musical score, and that just made me resent the movie even more. My problem with the movie was how one-dimensional the characters are. I just couldn't care less about them. Oh, and I really hated the hype. I refused to see it in the theater, and only watched it months later on video.

electricspacegirl | May 24, 05:50 CET

LOL! /hangs out with SNT, offers him a cold beverage. I'm in this camp also :( Also being one of the biggest Gaiman geeks on the planet...

April -- I loved your first post, and I didn't figure you were gunning for anyone, its all good :)

p.s. for my friend Zeppo -- excellent interview and looking forward to the rest of it :)

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-05-24 05:05 ]

zeitgeist | May 24, 07:02 CET

I have Barbie Christmas ornaments and I'm wearing pink kitty kat PJs right now. Not only will I go see Serenity in September, but I'm freakin' going this Thursday (holy crap, thursday is so close...I can taste it). In September I'll be sporting my 3 inch heels and possibly my Cassidy pants from the Limited (my favorite store) along with my girlfriend who works at the Gap and wears bows on her shoes and my other girlfriend who will pay hundreds of dollars on anything from Bath and Body Works. We are at least three girly girls who will be there. SF chicks rule. Oh and hubby is coming too, but he goes for the more manly 2 inch heels:)

April, I also hearted (verb?) your post.

Harmalicious | May 24, 07:55 CET

Hey Jesse, glad you pointed out it is your interview. I didn't say anything above, but this is an awesome interview. I don't know if I've seen Joss more relaxed and open. How did you do it? Only a few jokes. Funny, of course, but we got some actual, not-heard-before thoughts on his BDM.

Meanwhile, back OT...

Twister: it actually got nominated for two Academy Awards! For technical stuff, but still. And it won some second (or third) tier awards. It also got a Razzie for "Worst Written Film That Grossed Over $100M." This was the Helen Hunt/Bill Paxton tornado chase FX movie.

SNT: I was talkin' about the Nineties, but I'll agree Moulin Rouge is overrated and overheated. It might get my vote for this decade if Ridley Scott and Georgie Lucas weren't still making movies. (To be fair, I haven't seen Rehash of the Sith yet.)

RBB | May 24, 09:17 CET

Hey RBB, I did the interview primarily for my college newspaper, and originally planned to form this interview into an article and couple it with my glowing review of "Serenity" at the time the film opens. But since I had the thing transcribed and wanted ALL of it to go somewhere, I brought it to DarkWorlds.com because I remember seeing Joss related stuff there in the past. (And plus Scifi.com didn't want it).

Having watched Buffy over and over for so many years and never loving it less, I, like many of you I'm sure, have a ton of questions that I wanted to ask Joss but never thought I'd have the opportunity. So, this was amazing as I could talk one-on-one with the mastermind and finally know the answers to these questions. Of course, I have more, less appropriate questions that didn't fit into this interview, but mainly I was interested in the creative process of Joss. What goes on inside Joss's head and stomach and heart before, after, and during the making of something. So, that's mainly what we talked about.

The questions that I'd been wanting to ask for a while, before I even knew this interview could have ever happened, are in Parts 2 and 3. So, look forward to that.

Glad you all liked it. Thanks again.

Goodnight.

TheZeppo | May 24, 09:29 CET

I've always enjoyed interviews conducted by fans because typically they tend to be the most interesting and informative, if a little less objective (which is understandable and easily taken into consideration). The best thing is, they don't waste time kicking up long-settled dust on the same, old, beaten conversational paths.

Can't wait to read the rest of what you discussed, theZeppo. Must have been a dream come true! :)

Also include me in the non-Titantic lovers cohort; I found it lugubriously heavy-handed and, despite its period setting and lavish sets, disturbingly contemporary in ways that constantly yanked me out of the story. The fact that I saw it with my husband at the beach during a violent thunderstorm (meaning our other daytime entertainment options were severely limited) is my excuse for having watched it during its initial release. I can't ever remember feeling more pummeled by a narrative in a film -- as though JC was insisting I be 'deeply moved', even as he violated the time's sensibilities and baldly attempted to manipulate my emotions. Bleah.

Wiseblood | May 24, 12:06 CET

TheZeppo, SciFi's loss is Darkworld's gain. It's a great interview and I can't wait to see the rest.

Simon | May 24, 12:24 CET

"I have a friend who doesn't like continuity heavy shows. She likes to be able to catch an episode here and there, and if she misses an ep, it's not a problem. She does have ADD though, and that may be a factor in her ability to concentrate."

I'm ADD but its not a problem for me anymore that I've gotten older. I saw the first episode of Buffy when it premiered but for some reason didn't keep watching. I liked what I saw but vampires scared me(i was like, 11 or 12). I then got back into it a few years ago because a friend of mine was a huge Willow/Tara fan. I just watched it and wasn't really hooked and was confused on alot of continuity (I couldn't tell if Spike was villain or hero) and I was wondering where some characters went. But one night I saw Graduation Day part 1 and everything just clicked. I then got cable to watch the Buffy re-runs on FX and quickly caught up before the end of season 6. Before Joss the only tv I watched were comedies that you can watch once and get a good laugh because there isn't any layers or subtext. But with Buffy I got hooked because of the long storylines and character continuity. Now because of Joss all the shows I'm a huge fan of have continuing story and character arcs. Its like reading a novel and seeing a detailed storyline play out over a long time. It makes watching old episodes a treat instead of a chore by seeing how these characters grew and changed.

If I never became a Joss fan then Smallville wouldn't annoy me so much. Now that I've tasted sirloin steak its hard to go back to spam.

[ edited by eddy on 2005-05-24 11:59 ]

eddy | May 24, 13:58 CET

eddy, my ADD friend has to do several things while she watches TV. I just dont see how you can concentrate on a show that way.

electricspacegirl | May 24, 14:09 CET