I just love that Buffy/Angel and Willow/Tara get included as epic couples that are "endlessly discussable". I couldn't agree more. Enjoy!

love4ba | April 29, 16:42 CET

[ edited by risingwaves on 2008-06-02 01:52 ]

risingwaves | April 29, 16:50 CET

I loved Willow/Tara. It was very romatic, painful, and aside from B/a had the best orgasm scene.

I have never watch VM, so I can not commment on L/V.

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 16:54 CET

I have to admit it, all last season I was a duncan/ veronica fan. But this season Duncan turned out to be about as interesting as Riley. After the prom episode I have finally jumped on the Logan/ Veronica bandwagon (esp. sinc Duncan gave Veronica an STD). But the L/V relationship still isn't as epic as B/A for me. I mean he came back from hell for her. Come on people.

srosenbz | April 29, 17:22 CET

I love Veronica/Logan and the main reason I was initially drawn to them is they remind me so much of Buffy/Spike.

Veronica/Duncan remind me much more of Buffy/Angel. The way they feel about each other is very upfront, whereas V/L are very ambiguous, with a lot of snark and heat.

I just hope we get a third season of VM.

Reddygirl | April 29, 17:24 CET

I haven't yet seen the second season so maybe there'll be something, but I can't even begin to see the Angel comparison with Duncan because the character doesn't strike me as very interesting. Also, there's nothing in his character that's about redemption. He's basically just a rich high school student and basically a good guy full stop, as far as I can see.

Logan on the other hand really needs to get redeeming, and yet he's still got that zing that comes from being a total wanker (a la Spike. Now that I can see). Give me the on again off again doomed-ness of Logan and Veronica any day.

yossarian | April 29, 17:38 CET

srosenbz, Same here, on all counts.

Lunakitty | April 29, 17:38 CET

I was pretty much going to say what Reddygirl just said, but yeah... This is an interesting comparion because V/L are so often equated with Spuffy and V/D with Bangel. V/D had a more epic romance, I think, despite was Logan says. ;) I'm not saying I liked it better, they just had the feel of that perfect "we are meant to be", whereas V/L is more of a love/hate thing... snarky and lustful. Not that there isn't a deeper love underneath that, there is, just like with Spuffy. The problem with V/D's epic love is that the show kept telling us they were meant to be, but the audience didn't believe it. Duncan was too boring, he was a Riley in disguise.

fortunateizzi | April 29, 17:38 CET

In BtVS for the most part Angel was always portrayed as very noble and heroic; he wasn't the "bad boy" who was vulnerable underneath and hid it with with snarky wit.

Even though I grew to love Angel on AtS, on Buffy, I didn't think he was that interesting. And though the Angelus arc was one of the best of the series, Angelus himself, while very entertaining, wasn't a character of much depth.

Duncan very much reminds me of Angel in the first three years of BtVS.

Reddygirl | April 29, 17:44 CET

I have always thought that Veronica/Duncan was the analogue to Buffy/Angel, and Veronica/Logan was the analogue to Buffy/Spike. While this has been true in the entire series, the first season was much closer. Buffy/Angel is the idealized, "first love" type of relationship that is the backbone of Veronica and Duncan's strong feelings for each other, whereas Buffy/Spike was a down-and-dirty, lust-driven, snarky confluence of hatred and love.

Note also the way Duncan and Veronica can't be together in season one because of a particular "curse"--this one because of the supposed incest barrier as opposed to a possible loss of soul. Veronica and Duncan had sex once before their breakup, which was a horribly traumatic experience leaving the girl abandoned the next morning and feeling violated. There's even some element of Angelus lurking under the surface in Duncan, whose "special brand of epilepsy" (which admittedly has been used by the writers less as a fundamental part of his character and more as a plot device to throw suspicion on him when convenient) leads to him losing control of his conscience for a short period of time, almost as if he lost his soul. I'm personally a fan of the way Veronica/Duncan was handled in first season: we see only the aftermath of the pain, and Duncan is already, when we meet him, essentially hollowed out by what happened with Veronica, and his sister's death. Making Duncan and Veronica have a largely happy romance in season two had a few moments where it worked, but for the most part fell apart, because there as no way the actual romance could live up to the image that the pair had created, and it was almost impossible to believe that Veronica or Duncan wouldn't notice this. (I will say this, though: Duncan/Logan scenes in season two were always a pleasure for me. It's a shame there weren't more of them.)

Veronica and Logan can't be together not because of anything external, but because of the internal, just like Buffy and Spike. That's why LoVe is a much more interesting couple to me. Well, that and the fact that there is a much greater chemistry between them, and stronger writing. (Jason Dohring also trumps Teddy Dunn, hands down.) Buffy fundamentally cannot and shouldn't (at least as of season six) trust and be with Spike, because, in spite of the progress he has made, he still is at best amoral (in "Bargaining Part 2," looking out at the chaos: "It just...seemed like fun). But she also exaggerates how bad Spike is, and is incapable of seeing the good that is developing in him up to Season Six (check out "Dead Things," for example). Similarly, Veronica can't really justify being with Logan when he, say, sets the public pool on fire, but she also refuses to let herself trust him when one would think she would. Veronica's inability to trust him in "Leave it to Beaver" leads to her horribly betraying him, and almost pushes Logan to suicide.

I've also seen Leo as Riley: the man on the side of the Law (the Sheriff's dept. in Leo's case, the military in Riley's) who is sweet but not Veronica's type. Leo, though, doesn't seem to have the same crushing flaws and inability to handle a woman "stronger" (or, in Veronica's case, I guess smarter) than him, although he is himself not perfect. The fact that Leo is middle class, whereas Duncan and Logan are rich 09ers, also works for me with the Buffy parallels: in a show about the corruption of the rich, the 09ers are the new vampires.

Of course, if you got me started, I could go on about the Buffy/Veronica comparisons, which are not meant as a criticism of VM for "copying" Buffy, or some such, but merely for interest: in addition to the above, we have Wallace as Xander, Mac as Willow, Jackie as Cordelia, Lilly as Faith (somewhat like Veronica's dark side) Madison Sinclair as Harmony...the list goes on and on.

WilliamTheB | April 29, 17:49 CET

William, really great post.

I thought SMG and DB had great chemistry, but SMG and JM had explosive sparkage and they had great rapport as actors. Whether they were doing comedy or drama, fighting or kissing, their timing was impeccable.

Reddygirl | April 29, 17:56 CET

Too continue on that, Troy's pretty much VM's equivalent of Parker. The nice rebound guy who turns out too be a total asshole. Only he was much much more entertaining than Parker ever was (and judging by "The Rapes of Graff", is getting some much needed charactr development. I hope he shows up again in 3)

NightTraveler | April 29, 17:59 CET

I agree that Troy is basically Parker, but more interesting. I wasn't really a fan of his return in "The Rapes of Graff," but I think I'm in the minority. I might have to watch it again.

WilliamTheB | April 29, 18:03 CET

Jackie was kind of Cordyish and I could see Mac is a bit like Willow.

Whenever I watch TV shows now I compare the characters to Buffy people. I see Jack as Angel, Sawyer as Spike and Kate as Buffy on Lost. Hurley is Xander.

Dean on Supernatural reminds me of Spike and Sam is like a more complex Riley.

Reddygirl | April 29, 18:06 CET

Wow, WilliamTheB. Umm... yeah, ditto what he said.

[ edited by Haunt on 2006-04-30 01:12 ]

Haunt | April 29, 18:12 CET

I did not get to see VM this week because there was basketball playing on Tuesday and modeling going on on Wednesday. This is not good. I'll try for tomorrow night. Yahoo says it is supposed to be on at both 7 & 11.

I can see the similarities between Spuffy and V/L but I find myself saying to Veronica "Run away! Run away!" whereas by S6 I found myself saying "What the hell, just give in to temptation and enjoy it." Okay, I was being weak, I know. The thing is, they managed to make me identify with Spike and with Buffy alternately...but more often than not, with Spike. That was an amazing feat because I have no use for guys like Spike in real life. I was raised around one of them, and know how destructive they can be to everyone around them. I always thought it was a tribute to JM, that he was able to get past my strong aversion to such people, and make me route for him...even though I still would not have wanted to have him anywhere around someone I cared about until he got his soul back.

Logan is still in the category of just trouble. I understand and sympathize with his reasons for being who and how he is, but that is no reason to sacrifice yourself or someone you care about. Yes they have great chemistry but I like Veronica so I say, "Run away! Run away!"

ETA: Great post WiamtheB. The Leo/Riley thing might work, but I found Leo to be a character with much more long term potential than Riley. I was sorry to see him go.

newcj | April 29, 18:13 CET

I have to admit it, all last season I was a duncan/ veronica fan. But this season Duncan turned out to be about as interesting as Riley. After the prom episode I have finally jumped on the Logan/ Veronica bandwagon (esp. sinc Duncan gave Veronica an STD). But the L/V relationship still isn't as epic as B/A for me. I mean he came back from hell for her. Come on people.

I agree on all counts. Duncan was the Riley to Buffy, not the Angel. And yeah, you don't get much more epic that the love of Buffy's life being brought back from hell moments after she sets down the Claddagh ring given to her by Angel which symbolizes friendship, love and loyalty - and Buffy being the only word he's capable of saying as he falls to his knees before her. *swoon*

Epic baby, epic. And I'm fortunate that I was able to enjoy Duncan/Veronica as well as Veronica/Logan - though I tend to be more like newcj in that I often want to tell Veronica to run away! I was never really into the bad boy thing. Even less so as an adult. Give me the nice guys.

love4ba | April 29, 18:20 CET

Actually, Angel didn't get out of hell because of Buffy. He was "released" and literally dropped into Sunnydale.

Reddygirl | April 29, 18:42 CET

Heh. You know I disagree Reddy. I don't think Hell releases anyone willingly. He was brought out by greater forces. TPTB, Buffy - both. But he wasn't just suddenly, out of the blue released. Not when you factor in the big old emphasis on the glowing Claddagh ring.

love4ba | April 29, 18:43 CET

Uhhh...I'll take a bad guy, especially if he's Spike.
Frankly a guy like Angel eventually would have bored me to tears....

kathylovesspike | April 29, 18:47 CET

I meant it wasn't due to his own efforts. He didn't climb out of hell for the love of Buffy.

I don't think Buffy had anything to do with Angel's getting out of hell, either.

Reddygirl | April 29, 18:47 CET

I don't think Buffy had anything to do with Angel getting out of hell on purpose - which is not to say she wouldn't have if she'd known she could - just that through her connection to Angel, TPTB brought Angel from hell.

And Kathylovesspike - that's cool - you have the bad guy. I never wanted him. He's the one who'd bore me to tears - so predictable.

love4ba | April 29, 18:55 CET

To love4ba,
Buffy was the reason Angel got out of Hell after his Summer of Punishment, but she is his reason for Redemption, or even starting thinking about it. "Amends", and the first half of "Becoming", proved that. Nothing compares to Buffy/Angel.

[ edited by impalergeneral on 2006-04-30 02:18 ]

impalergeneral | April 29, 19:04 CET

Impalergeneral - I couldn't agree more!

love4ba | April 29, 19:06 CET

How is Buffy supposed to have been responsible for Angel's release from the Hell dimension? I know she sent him there but I don't recall anything from the show to indicate that she had anything to do with bringing him back. Actually from "Amends" it seemed to me that The First might well have been in part responsible.

helcat | April 29, 19:08 CET

Love for Buffy also started Spike on his path of redemption and he actually got his soul for Buffy.

Reddygirl | April 29, 19:11 CET

With regards to Angel coming back for whatever reason and Spike on the path for redemption well I think Mutant Enemy were making it up as they go along. Which is the often the best way for characters and plot arcs. Leads to lots of interpretation.

And do remember that this is a light hearted thread, so I really don't want to see it turn into a "my favourite character is better than your favourite character" discussion.

Simon | April 29, 19:18 CET

I have never been witness to a couple on screen that have stood the test of time and left fans with such a feeling of needing more in my life. Nearly a decade later Buffy and Angel are remembered and cherished.
Not to be rude or anything but imo, Buffy and Spike aren't even comparable to the epic timeless love shown to exist between Buffy and Angel.
Who other than the Jossman himself could create such a couple? I'll tell you who, nobody. I would waiger and bet that there is NEVER another couple created that will be as sought after for as long as this one. Although SMG and DB are hugely responsible for
the "lightening in a bottle affect" it would have never happened without the amazing creative brain of Joss Whedon.
I simply can't say enough about how this Universe and specifically this couple have affected my life.
Other couples are o.k. but nothing compares to the wonder of Buffy and Angel.
Other writers may try but nobody will one up the Master. Am I a huge fangirl of the Master? You betcha.

cheryl | April 29, 19:34 CET

You're a fangirl of The Master? Man, he had blood on his face!

gossi | April 29, 19:40 CET

Reddygirl, I have never really thought of the Lost connections, but I like those.

In a way, it also makes me think back to X-Men as well, with Jack as Scott and Sawyer as Logan. And Locke is like what Xavier would have been like had he regained the use of his legs. (Probably a good thing for Xavier he never did.)

ETA: A few more just occurred to me: science guy-who's-afraid-he's-a-monster Sayid is definitely Hank, and I see a lot of Colossus in Eko.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-04-30 05:37 ]

WilliamTheB | April 29, 19:42 CET

LOL.
Master = Joss.
I did love The Master as a bad though.

cheryl | April 29, 19:43 CET

I never saw Buffy and Spike as epic and timeless. I saw them as something much more real and down to earth. They're my all-time fictional couple and I think they're right up there with Beatrice and Benedick, Scarlett and Rhett, Leia and Han, Maddie and David, and all of those other couples who snarked, caused each other pain, denied their feelings and finally fell in love.

To paraphrase Spike, what Buffy and Spike had wasn't always pretty, but they are the most memorable couple I have ever seen on the small or big screen.

Reddygirl | April 29, 19:48 CET

"Who other than the Jossman himself could create such a couple?" Shakespeare.

"I would waiger and bet that there is NEVER another couple created that will be as sought after for as long as this one."

Given linear time and all that then of course any couple after B/A would not be as long standing. But there are plenty who came before who still have followings.

Anyhoo, I was never a Bangel or a Spuffy. It's all about the boys for me. Now does this mean I might start shipping Logan/Duncan, like I did Spangel. Nah. Even at his dullest and most plot device-est (new word?) Angel was never as one-note as Duncan. Logan/Weevil maybe. Although I did notice a little sparkage between Logan and Wallace the other week. They could be my new Spander. ;0)

exoticmushroom | April 29, 19:53 CET

How about Logan/Lamb?

I like Lamb and hope next year his character continues to grow; I think he has an intriguing past.

I'm kind of intrigued by Veronican/Lamb, too.

Reddygirl | April 29, 19:56 CET

Oh, yes! Lamb is quite the dark horse. The episode with Meg's sister was very interesting. And in the one when the FBI (aka Xena) showed up I was actually rooting for Lamb against them. I hope they continue to develop his character.

exoticmushroom | April 29, 20:00 CET

William the B, I like your X-men comparisons.

I was definitely rooting for Lamb over Xena. The actor is fantastic and has been doing a great job of subtext. You just know there's more to Lamb than meets the eye and that's always my favorite type of character.

Hmm a new ship is born. LoLa.

Reddygirl | April 29, 20:05 CET

I rooted for Lamb against Lucy Lawless' Agent Morris also. The more I watch the show, the more I see the good lurking below the surface of Lamb, who is often a decent guy and semi-competent investigator, if easily manipulated. And some of his animosity toward the Marses is somewhat justified, from his perspective. (In particular, I bet he took Keith's calling in with the report of Wallace's father as a drug dealer as him trying to embarrass him before the election.)

WilliamTheB | April 29, 21:41 CET

I'm gonna have to agree with the rest of the members of the B/A legion about the whole timeless love thing. Whether Angel was brought back from hell because of Buffy or not doesn't really matter to me. She was convincing enough in "Amends" to make me believe that that she played a big part in influencing Angel to go on his own journey of redemption. Although Spuffy was down to earth and intense the doomed aspect of B/A ultimately worked for me in the end. Each of them had to deal with extreme hardship: the loss of friends and HUGE things that they wanted (Shanshu) and sacrifice things that...well...were very painful to sacrifice. Part of this is just because they are heroes, but every time that I see that scene in "Forever" when he just slips his hand into hers at the graveyard like nothing's happened...well, that seems pretty timeless to me.

[ edited by Gwendolyn Post on 2006-04-30 05:14 ]

[ edited by Gwendolyn Post on 2006-04-30 05:15 ]

Gwendolyn Post | April 29, 22:14 CET

And then there was "Chosen". Flaming hands clasped as Buffy with tears in her eyes declared "I Love you" to Spike.

Well,Spike said he didn't believe her,you may say. And I say that is exactly why we need a Spike movie to shed a little light on what Spike's journey really came to be.

Berry | April 29, 22:39 CET

Was reading a post by HERSELF on LJ, and she mentioned that watching SCHOOL HARD again and knowing where Spike ended up is just a different kind of experience. Whatever you believe about love/didn't love, the fact that those two traveled so far with so much passion made them epic.

Also, I don't think that it is such a terrible thing to love more than one person in your life.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-04-30 06:17 ]

spikeylover | April 29, 22:51 CET

Yulak!

Madhatter | April 29, 22:55 CET

Nevermind, I see how this page is turning. Simon, must call it a night. Good night all!

Madhatter | April 29, 23:10 CET

Last comment: (if you feel that I am steering this thread in the wrong direction, please feel free to take it off...I'm not trying to make this a who's better deal).

In my opinion the concept of timeless love doesn't just have to do with passion and excitement. As a realist (or probably more accurately a skeptic) I just believe that daily life is not filled with that kind of completely overpowering stuff. The scene in "Chosen" was indeed beautiful but it was also immediate. I feel like that is the way that most things happened with Spike and Buffy. Of course that adds to the power of it; people love to feel strongly involved and get caught up in the moment. But trust and other long term qualities matter as well. Hell, I appreciate Spike for getting his soul because of her (I really do) but I don't know if she necessarily (fully) trusted him. Maybe at the end she did, but it's pretty unclear (at least to me).

Gwendolyn Post | April 29, 23:23 CET

In terms of epic romances. I think I'd add Chriton and Aeryn from Farscape to the list. All the pain and denial that relationship went thru in 4 years. They've both died and one of them even got cloned!

flightofserenity | April 30, 00:20 CET

William, I can't wait to find out more about Lamb. His reaction to Meg's parents really leads me to believe he has some dark secrets of his own to reveal. That scene where he stands up to Meg's icky, self-righteous father made my hair stand on end. Truly one of the best moments of season 2.

Buffy has trusted Spike since season 5. That's why we see her time and time again entrust Dawn to his care. In The Gift, it's Spike Buffy chooses to be Dawn's protector. She didn't call Angel and leave a message asking him to watch over Dawn. Instead, it's unsouled Spike she reaches out to.

Subconsciously Buffy always knew Spike was a different kind of vampire.

Reddygirl | April 30, 00:50 CET

Way off topic, but for anyone's who's interested, I think VM must be on sale at amazon.com. They have it listed for $29.96. I know I'm extremely tempted.

And Lamb and Veronica? Wow. I've never even thought about that before. That could make a hilarious fanfic, though. Imagine Keith's reaction! :)

obsessed | April 30, 00:55 CET

In season 2 I really think Lamb's character has evolved and I really look forward to seeing what the writers do with him in 3.

One of the strengths VM shares with BtVS is that the supporting characters like Mac, Gia and Lamb are all so interesting.

Reddygirl | April 30, 01:20 CET

obsessed, thanks for that Amazon tip! That is way less than usual price for VM S1. I'm a big VM fan, prefer Veronica/Logan to Veronica/Duncan (he's so dull and beneath her!), but there's so many great comments already in this discussion, I have not much to add apart from, hope VM gets picked up by the CW! :-)

billz | April 30, 01:23 CET

I just have to believe VM will get picked up by the CW. It seems like a perfect pick to follow GG.

Reddygirl | April 30, 01:26 CET

However, Buffy's trust in Spike was conditional - and it was broken in season 6. Remember what she said? That she could never trust him enough for it to be love. Season 7 was about him regaining that trust. Which I believe Joss also talked about on the Chosen commentary. That Spike's story in season 7 was about showing that he could be redeemed even from bad acts but not necessarily in an "all is forgiven" kind of way.

And she could hardly call Angel - he was in another dimension. Otherwise, I've no doubt he'd have been there.

love4ba | April 30, 02:33 CET

It seems to me that, be it BtVS AsS or VM , we do any show a grave disservice when we reduce it to the level of "shipping" .

To focus solely on one ship is to watch the show from a skewed perspective and thus to miss many of the nuances. Much better to appreciate the story in its totality and to go (willingly or otherwise )whither the writers lead you.


That way you get to appreciate all of the epic couples and heroes journeys and all of the manifold complexities of life and love . Just as an example . Angel/Angelus was a complex character with a complex lovelife , Darla, Drusilla, William
(c'mon people they're vampires) Buffy, Cordelia, Gwen, Fred, Dog Girl, Spike ) If I decided to block out every relationship except for Darla/Angel/Angelus I would be denying the character's growth and progression. And just to even the score Spike's life was almost as complex Cecily, Drusilla, Angel, Harmony,Buffy, skank chick, Anya, Faith, Xander, more Angel, Fred/Illyria.

Give me a good ensemble piece where, as in life, people grow and change and interact and sometimes switch partners and I'm a happy bunny .

If we ever get a film I'd be delighted to hear about Buffy still frolicking with The Immortal and Angel off making puppies whilst Spike and Illyria try out their new relationship until Faith comes back and mixes things up a bit .

You have to go with the story . And , like Buffy I love both of my souled heroic Vamps and find the whole " my vampire is better than your vampire" spiel to be really rather silly and frankly more than a tad yawn inducing.

I personally have no intention of letting my own preconceptions about where I think any story should go get in the way of where the writers want to take it.

And as to the great epic couple Romeo and Juliet . I was watching Dead Like Me the other day and one of the characters made the point that if only Romeo had behaved like other teenaged boys and masturbated a few times a week he could have saved both families an awful lot of heartache. I love Dead Like Me!

[ edited by debw on 2006-04-30 10:16 ]

[ edited by debw on 2006-04-30 10:17 ]

debw | April 30, 03:15 CET

Oh, thank God for someone who has made me laugh out loud. Thanks, debw. Some of the arguments in this thread remind me of the person who, at a Q&A, tried to tell David Fury he was wrong about a character's motivation in an episode, despite the fact that he was the one who'd written it.

All of us have our own fantasies about what the characters might do or think, but reading parts of this thread has been like watching rival football team fans square up to each other. Buffy shagged Angel. Then she shagged Spike. Then she went on to someone other than either of them. And they both slept with other women (and okay, I quite like debw's other suggestions too).

And hey, for a mainstream teen-angled show in America, that makes me admire Joss even more.

roadrunner | April 30, 05:11 CET

Do bear in mind that I have no intention of letting Whedonesque go back to the end days of the Buffy fandom which was crippled by endless shipper debates and wars and which caused many fans to leave.

So no more shipping talk for a while. If you want to discuss this with me, feel free to email me. Don't discuss it on site.

Simon | April 30, 06:13 CET

I don't think Veronica and Logan even compare to Buffy and Angel. She probably needs to rethink her use of the word epic as well.

Humble_Pie | April 30, 06:17 CET

Reddygirl, I agree that Buffy trusted Spike implicitly. Her trust in him was shown over and over again--and, indeed, she was completely taken aback by the concept that Spike could still do bad things, such as in "As You Were." (He's harmless!...oh, maybe not.) I think Veronica trusted Logan, too, implicitly; she let him into her heart very quickly, stood by him throughout the Felix-murder case, and trusted that he was telling the truth when he said that he didn't stab him.

The thing is, I see both Buffy and Veronica as having major trust issues, and the fact that they let Spike and Logan, respectively, have their trust drives both of them crazy. It's why there's so much snark, and it's why in both cases the behaviour towards the partner is so often bipolar. Buffy entrusts Dawn and Joyce with Spike, sleeps with him, but beats him to a bloody pulp, saying that he's dead and evil inside. Veronica dumps her largely straight-arrow boyfriend (Leo) for Logan, accepts his description of their romance as "epic," and stands by him throughout a difficult murder trial, but also accuses him of raping her and killing Lilly, assumes that his drink of choice is "liquid evil", and, in the most recent episode, leaves angrily without giving him any benefit of the doubt, with respect to Kendall. Buffy is a little bit in love with Spike, and has a bit of hatred for him, and even more hatred for herself *for* loving him. Veronica's feelings for Logan aren't quite as extreme, but they're similar.

As far as whether or not Veronica and Logan are epic, consider what they have gone through together, versus what most real life couples their age have gone through. I mean...moving from hatred to love because of bonding over loss of mothers and loss of Lilly? I don't think the word "epic" is that much of an exaggeration, really. This isn't me being shippy, just...observy. (I'd say the same thing if Veronica described her relationship with Duncan as epic, and I have never thought that Bell and Dunn have that much chemistry: look at what the two of them have gone through, as opposed to most high school couples. Now, if Wallace or Jackie start using that word to describe their relationship, for example, I'd probably start crying foul.)

WilliamTheB | April 30, 07:03 CET

I was gonna say the same thing as you, WilliamtheB, but, not as well put. Heh. So I'll just agree.

pat32082 | April 30, 07:11 CET

"Yes, that was epic too, and had all the prerequisites of romantic doomed love, but we knew that was never going to work out."

I don't think I agree with her logic. To say you love one relationship over another because you know it won't work out is a tad weak. Who cares if you know it won't work out? A relationship is still a relationship.

It's so hard for me personally to compare one relationship to another, especially in a completely different show. I love all my wonderful characters in exact equal portions of love :)

Harmalicious | April 30, 08:52 CET

I just have to give a shout out to the actors. The look on Veronica's face as she is waiting for the elevator door to close, and Logan standing in the hall, and you can just feel him searching for something to say...it gave me goosebumps. Reminded me of the best of the Whedonverse, when truly excellent writing is paired with talented acting and it just...trancends. It is no wonder we all get so passionate about the characters and the various ships. With so much style and chemistry on the screen we are bound to get pulled along in the wake.

GoblinQueen | April 30, 09:42 CET

Harmalicious, I've been also surprised by this phrase. The best part of the ship is agnst and UST.

Moscow Watcher | April 30, 09:44 CET

Wow EM, I think you just helped to prove my point. Can you think of a writer from this day and age with the staying power equavalent to that of Shakespeare? I can and that title would be strictly reserved for Joss Whedon.

I don't see much in the way of "shipper" preference when I think of the mad and crazy success of Buffy and Angel as an epic couple. They are what they are.

It's all about the boys for you, it was always all about Buffy for me. Different strokes and all.

cheryl | April 30, 10:20 CET

Annie Proulx. And she's managing it on only a 30 page short story. I could link you to an excellent site for BBM fans if you'd like. Let me know and I'll e-mail it to you.

It wasn't always about the boys for me. I didn't "ship" exactly but I did love Xander and Cordy together. But then they broke them up. I realised why they did, that it was necessary for the plotting of the characters. Cordy had already been marked to move over to Angel the series and so logically she and Xander had to split up and move on. I "ship" Spike and Angel but I fully understand the necessity to split them up at any given time to further the story.

Should a Spike movie occur then this would be necessary. But, oh how I long for that Spangel reunion kiss. ;0)

exoticmushroom | April 30, 10:59 CET

I'd be interested in reading anything you claim to match the brilliance of Joss Whedon.

cheryl | April 30, 11:02 CET

Cool. If you update your e-mail in your profile I'll give you the link to the site. Unfortunately the text isn't online, but the book is on sale.

exoticmushroom | April 30, 11:15 CET

William, another great post.

Veronica and Buffy both share a parental unit who is less than satisfactory and just not around when needed. And it's interesting that Buffy has lots of issues with men and V doesn't have one really close female friend.

Apologies to the board for getting all shippy.

The fact is, I beieve Buffy was in love with Angel, was in love with Riley, was in love with Spike and now is in love with the Immortal. Of course I hope one day those two crazy kids Buffy and Spike will meet up again
and start a new relationship but I don't think their love was any more epic than B/A or B/R.

I just don't see BtVS or AtS being shows about mythic romances and star-crossed lovers. Yes, romantic love was always an important element but I think it was t here to progress the characters on their respective journeys.

Edited to add I know Buffy and Veronica don't actually have the same parent.

[ edited by Reddygirl on 2006-04-30 18:22 ]

Reddygirl | April 30, 11:20 CET

I find Spike's journey from Schoolhard to NFA to be epic. I think taking the core four from where they were in high school to CHOSEN to be epic, as was Angel's journey. I think Buffy/Angel were an epic supercouple, but so do I think Buffy/Spike were. (Or they wouldn't be mentioned in so many BEST OF polls and magazine articles) So, I disagree about the epic, Reddy. (um...I don't think Buffy/Riley were epic, but if anyone does then certainly I have nothing against that. ;P)

spikeylover | April 30, 11:26 CET

To be honest, I'm not a fan of "epic". My favorite couples are where there is lots of witty banter, they resisit their feelings and are quite horrid verbally to one another, there is plenty of sexual tension and then they finally fall in love.

For some reason, parties in an epic relationship tend to have no sense of humor. Imo, Romeo and Juliet are the dullest characters in the play.

If by epic you mean a very strong and passionate love, then I do love epic. But if you mean a situation where the couple are fated to be together and are soulmates who are not complete unless they are together and are better off dead if they can't be together, then I'm not a fan of "epic".

Reddygirl | April 30, 11:54 CET

Thanks, Reddygirl. I really liked your point about the parental issues. Buffy's issues with men are linked to her father implicitly throughout the first few seasons, and explicitly in "Converations with Dead People"; it's interesting to look at Buffy's relationships, and especially the Buffy/Angel relationship, with an analytical eye. There are slightly creepy "Angel as Hank" vibes. (I recommend shadowkat's posts in the archives of ATPOBTVS for a more extensive look at this. I'd just be cribbing if I continued.)

I'm not sure that Veronica's abandonment by her mother is hurting her relationships with women particularly, though. Granted, Veronica's closest relationship to any female her age was with Lilly, and her mother's abandoning her is actually caused by that. But as far as the comment that Veronica doesn't have one close female friend? I think Veronica only has one close friend, period, in Wallace. Her other friends are both male and female: Mac, Meg (who died), Weevil (friendship largely based on mutual backscratching), Logan (if you call that a "friendship" per se), Jackie (sort of), and, in another backscratchy way, Cliff. One could even make an argument that she's friends with Gia. That's pretty even along gender lines. I think her mother's abandonment makes her reticent to trust people generally, which hurts her relationships with others generally, but not so much along gender lines (although, of the above list, only Mac and Meg seem like people I'd personally recommend trusting wholeheartedly).

In a way, Veronica is even more a child of a single parent than Buffy. Buffy had Joyce to nurture her home life and Giles to introduce her to the demons she will have to face in the world. Keith essentially fills both roles--which makes the Keith/Veronica dynamic so very interesting to watch. And of course, on both shows, the one good parent in Joyce/Keith is more than virtually anyone else had. At least no one's parents in Buffy are murderers. I think.

I don't see Buffy/Riley as epic per se, but I do think it was a life-changing experience for both of them, especially for Riley, who even in "As You Were" seemed more passionate about Buffy than for his wife. (But then, I'm never quite sure what to make of "As You Were.")

ETA: Reddygirl, I agree with your thoughts on epic. I don't like the R&J-syndrome. Angst with humour? Where it's at.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-04-30 18:57 ]

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-04-30 18:58 ]

WilliamTheB | April 30, 11:56 CET

My mother took me to see R & J (the Zeffirelli version) when it first came out. I was about 9 and my reaction was "this is stupid!". Though I thought Leonard Whiting was a stone fox.

I completely believe in the power of love to transform lives and think it can be an amazing force for good, as well as tragedy. Imo, Chosen was all about love: the love Buffy felt for for her friends, her family, the Potentials, etc. Even though I believe Bufy was in love with Spike I don't think the romantic element was the most important. She felt love/love for him, too, the same kind of feeling she had for Xander or Willow. Imo, the First was defeated because of all that love floating around. I think the words of the Spirit Guide in Intervension weren't just about The Gift but also was a prophesy for Chosen.

So, it's not that I'm not a fan of love stories, I am. Just not so much into the epic romances.

Veronica and Keith have an incredibly interesting relationship. In a way, it's like Lorelei/Rory, where the parent and child operate on a different level than the traditional parent/child dynamic. V is really an old soul and I wonder it that's one reason she doesn't connect easily to people her own age. Keith has enormous faith in V's judgement and rarely do we see him do ordinary things like ground her. And now that she's 18, he worries about her but overall, he lets her make her own decisions.

[ edited by Reddygirl on 2006-04-30 19:47 ]

Reddygirl | April 30, 12:45 CET

I guess I like Joss Whedon's version of "Epic" above all others.
There is something about a true selfless love that touches me on a deep emotional level.
Truthfully, the only journey I ever got 100% emotionally invested in was that of Buffy, the Scoobs and Angel. Spike was a wonderful character, don't get me wrong but when Dru went away, a lot of my love for him went away. I think she took the best parts of Spike away with her. I know everyone doesn't share in that belief but hey, we all have an opinion right?

For the record I am a BIG fan of love stories, the one told by Joss being my ultimate favorite. The fact that it came wrapped in mystery, suspense, angst and action only cements my notion that what he created nobody can or will surpass.

cheryl | April 30, 14:50 CET

Oh, I loved the look on KB's face at the end of the anti-prom episode. The woman is an amazing actress. Plus, she has some of the cutest facial expressions some times.

love4ba | April 30, 16:48 CET

None of those couples strike me as epic. It's more the indvidual journey's that i find truly epic. Mostly Buffy's journey or Spike's journey. The couples of the Buffyverse just don't do it for me, i think none of them have met their soulmate if that is even possible.

sethsky | May 01, 05:20 CET

Give sethsky a cookie. I think you nailed it. The couples are all part of the characters journey--it's not the couples who are truly epic but the characters involved.

spikeylover | May 01, 08:28 CET