"I didn't see an end, so I put a bullet in my mouth and the other guy spit it out."
April 29
2006
Page vs screen: A Logan-Veronica case study.
A look at epic couples. Includes Veronica/Logan from Veronica Mars and Buffy/Angel and Willow/Tara from BtVs.
love4ba
| General
| 16:39 CET
|
72 comments total
| tags: willow/tara, buffy/angel
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love4ba | April 29, 16:42 CET
[ edited by risingwaves on 2008-06-02 01:52 ]
risingwaves | April 29, 16:50 CET
I have never watch VM, so I can not commment on L/V.
Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 16:54 CET
srosenbz | April 29, 17:22 CET
Veronica/Duncan remind me much more of Buffy/Angel. The way they feel about each other is very upfront, whereas V/L are very ambiguous, with a lot of snark and heat.
I just hope we get a third season of VM.
Reddygirl | April 29, 17:24 CET
Logan on the other hand really needs to get redeeming, and yet he's still got that zing that comes from being a total wanker (a la Spike. Now that I can see). Give me the on again off again doomed-ness of Logan and Veronica any day.
yossarian | April 29, 17:38 CET
Lunakitty | April 29, 17:38 CET
fortunateizzi | April 29, 17:38 CET
Even though I grew to love Angel on AtS, on Buffy, I didn't think he was that interesting. And though the Angelus arc was one of the best of the series, Angelus himself, while very entertaining, wasn't a character of much depth.
Duncan very much reminds me of Angel in the first three years of BtVS.
Reddygirl | April 29, 17:44 CET
Note also the way Duncan and Veronica can't be together in season one because of a particular "curse"--this one because of the supposed incest barrier as opposed to a possible loss of soul. Veronica and Duncan had sex once before their breakup, which was a horribly traumatic experience leaving the girl abandoned the next morning and feeling violated. There's even some element of Angelus lurking under the surface in Duncan, whose "special brand of epilepsy" (which admittedly has been used by the writers less as a fundamental part of his character and more as a plot device to throw suspicion on him when convenient) leads to him losing control of his conscience for a short period of time, almost as if he lost his soul. I'm personally a fan of the way Veronica/Duncan was handled in first season: we see only the aftermath of the pain, and Duncan is already, when we meet him, essentially hollowed out by what happened with Veronica, and his sister's death. Making Duncan and Veronica have a largely happy romance in season two had a few moments where it worked, but for the most part fell apart, because there as no way the actual romance could live up to the image that the pair had created, and it was almost impossible to believe that Veronica or Duncan wouldn't notice this. (I will say this, though: Duncan/Logan scenes in season two were always a pleasure for me. It's a shame there weren't more of them.)
Veronica and Logan can't be together not because of anything external, but because of the internal, just like Buffy and Spike. That's why LoVe is a much more interesting couple to me. Well, that and the fact that there is a much greater chemistry between them, and stronger writing. (Jason Dohring also trumps Teddy Dunn, hands down.) Buffy fundamentally cannot and shouldn't (at least as of season six) trust and be with Spike, because, in spite of the progress he has made, he still is at best amoral (in "Bargaining Part 2," looking out at the chaos: "It just...seemed like fun). But she also exaggerates how bad Spike is, and is incapable of seeing the good that is developing in him up to Season Six (check out "Dead Things," for example). Similarly, Veronica can't really justify being with Logan when he, say, sets the public pool on fire, but she also refuses to let herself trust him when one would think she would. Veronica's inability to trust him in "Leave it to Beaver" leads to her horribly betraying him, and almost pushes Logan to suicide.
I've also seen Leo as Riley: the man on the side of the Law (the Sheriff's dept. in Leo's case, the military in Riley's) who is sweet but not Veronica's type. Leo, though, doesn't seem to have the same crushing flaws and inability to handle a woman "stronger" (or, in Veronica's case, I guess smarter) than him, although he is himself not perfect. The fact that Leo is middle class, whereas Duncan and Logan are rich 09ers, also works for me with the Buffy parallels: in a show about the corruption of the rich, the 09ers are the new vampires.
Of course, if you got me started, I could go on about the Buffy/Veronica comparisons, which are not meant as a criticism of VM for "copying" Buffy, or some such, but merely for interest: in addition to the above, we have Wallace as Xander, Mac as Willow, Jackie as Cordelia, Lilly as Faith (somewhat like Veronica's dark side) Madison Sinclair as Harmony...the list goes on and on.
WilliamTheB | April 29, 17:49 CET
I thought SMG and DB had great chemistry, but SMG and JM had explosive sparkage and they had great rapport as actors. Whether they were doing comedy or drama, fighting or kissing, their timing was impeccable.
Reddygirl | April 29, 17:56 CET
NightTraveler | April 29, 17:59 CET
WilliamTheB | April 29, 18:03 CET
Whenever I watch TV shows now I compare the characters to Buffy people. I see Jack as Angel, Sawyer as Spike and Kate as Buffy on Lost. Hurley is Xander.
Dean on Supernatural reminds me of Spike and Sam is like a more complex Riley.
Reddygirl | April 29, 18:06 CET
[ edited by Haunt on 2006-04-30 01:12 ]
Haunt | April 29, 18:12 CET
I can see the similarities between Spuffy and V/L but I find myself saying to Veronica "Run away! Run away!" whereas by S6 I found myself saying "What the hell, just give in to temptation and enjoy it." Okay, I was being weak, I know. The thing is, they managed to make me identify with Spike and with Buffy alternately...but more often than not, with Spike. That was an amazing feat because I have no use for guys like Spike in real life. I was raised around one of them, and know how destructive they can be to everyone around them. I always thought it was a tribute to JM, that he was able to get past my strong aversion to such people, and make me route for him...even though I still would not have wanted to have him anywhere around someone I cared about until he got his soul back.
Logan is still in the category of just trouble. I understand and sympathize with his reasons for being who and how he is, but that is no reason to sacrifice yourself or someone you care about. Yes they have great chemistry but I like Veronica so I say, "Run away! Run away!"
ETA: Great post WiamtheB. The Leo/Riley thing might work, but I found Leo to be a character with much more long term potential than Riley. I was sorry to see him go.
newcj | April 29, 18:13 CET
I agree on all counts. Duncan was the Riley to Buffy, not the Angel. And yeah, you don't get much more epic that the love of Buffy's life being brought back from hell moments after she sets down the Claddagh ring given to her by Angel which symbolizes friendship, love and loyalty - and Buffy being the only word he's capable of saying as he falls to his knees before her. *swoon*
Epic baby, epic. And I'm fortunate that I was able to enjoy Duncan/Veronica as well as Veronica/Logan - though I tend to be more like newcj in that I often want to tell Veronica to run away! I was never really into the bad boy thing. Even less so as an adult. Give me the nice guys.
love4ba | April 29, 18:20 CET
Reddygirl | April 29, 18:42 CET
love4ba | April 29, 18:43 CET
Frankly a guy like Angel eventually would have bored me to tears....
kathylovesspike | April 29, 18:47 CET
I don't think Buffy had anything to do with Angel's getting out of hell, either.
Reddygirl | April 29, 18:47 CET
And Kathylovesspike - that's cool - you have the bad guy. I never wanted him. He's the one who'd bore me to tears - so predictable.
love4ba | April 29, 18:55 CET
Buffy was the reason Angel got out of Hell after his Summer of Punishment, but she is his reason for Redemption, or even starting thinking about it. "Amends", and the first half of "Becoming", proved that. Nothing compares to Buffy/Angel.
[ edited by impalergeneral on 2006-04-30 02:18 ]
impalergeneral | April 29, 19:04 CET
love4ba | April 29, 19:06 CET
helcat | April 29, 19:08 CET
Reddygirl | April 29, 19:11 CET
And do remember that this is a light hearted thread, so I really don't want to see it turn into a "my favourite character is better than your favourite character" discussion.
Simon | April 29, 19:18 CET
Not to be rude or anything but imo, Buffy and Spike aren't even comparable to the epic timeless love shown to exist between Buffy and Angel.
Who other than the Jossman himself could create such a couple? I'll tell you who, nobody. I would waiger and bet that there is NEVER another couple created that will be as sought after for as long as this one. Although SMG and DB are hugely responsible for
the "lightening in a bottle affect" it would have never happened without the amazing creative brain of Joss Whedon.
I simply can't say enough about how this Universe and specifically this couple have affected my life.
Other couples are o.k. but nothing compares to the wonder of Buffy and Angel.
Other writers may try but nobody will one up the Master. Am I a huge fangirl of the Master? You betcha.
cheryl | April 29, 19:34 CET
gossi | April 29, 19:40 CET
In a way, it also makes me think back to X-Men as well, with Jack as Scott and Sawyer as Logan. And Locke is like what Xavier would have been like had he regained the use of his legs. (Probably a good thing for Xavier he never did.)
ETA: A few more just occurred to me: science guy-who's-afraid-he's-a-monster Sayid is definitely Hank, and I see a lot of Colossus in Eko.
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-04-30 05:37 ]
WilliamTheB | April 29, 19:42 CET
Master = Joss.
I did love The Master as a bad though.
cheryl | April 29, 19:43 CET
To paraphrase Spike, what Buffy and Spike had wasn't always pretty, but they are the most memorable couple I have ever seen on the small or big screen.
Reddygirl | April 29, 19:48 CET
"I would waiger and bet that there is NEVER another couple created that will be as sought after for as long as this one."
Given linear time and all that then of course any couple after B/A would not be as long standing. But there are plenty who came before who still have followings.
Anyhoo, I was never a Bangel or a Spuffy. It's all about the boys for me. Now does this mean I might start shipping Logan/Duncan, like I did Spangel. Nah. Even at his dullest and most plot device-est (new word?) Angel was never as one-note as Duncan. Logan/Weevil maybe. Although I did notice a little sparkage between Logan and Wallace the other week. They could be my new Spander. ;0)
exoticmushroom | April 29, 19:53 CET
I like Lamb and hope next year his character continues to grow; I think he has an intriguing past.
I'm kind of intrigued by Veronican/Lamb, too.
Reddygirl | April 29, 19:56 CET
exoticmushroom | April 29, 20:00 CET
I was definitely rooting for Lamb over Xena. The actor is fantastic and has been doing a great job of subtext. You just know there's more to Lamb than meets the eye and that's always my favorite type of character.
Hmm a new ship is born. LoLa.
Reddygirl | April 29, 20:05 CET
WilliamTheB | April 29, 21:41 CET
[ edited by Gwendolyn Post on 2006-04-30 05:14 ]
[ edited by Gwendolyn Post on 2006-04-30 05:15 ]
Gwendolyn Post | April 29, 22:14 CET
Well,Spike said he didn't believe her,you may say. And I say that is exactly why we need a Spike movie to shed a little light on what Spike's journey really came to be.
Berry | April 29, 22:39 CET
Also, I don't think that it is such a terrible thing to love more than one person in your life.
[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-04-30 06:17 ]
spikeylover | April 29, 22:51 CET
Madhatter | April 29, 22:55 CET
Madhatter | April 29, 23:10 CET
In my opinion the concept of timeless love doesn't just have to do with passion and excitement. As a realist (or probably more accurately a skeptic) I just believe that daily life is not filled with that kind of completely overpowering stuff. The scene in "Chosen" was indeed beautiful but it was also immediate. I feel like that is the way that most things happened with Spike and Buffy. Of course that adds to the power of it; people love to feel strongly involved and get caught up in the moment. But trust and other long term qualities matter as well. Hell, I appreciate Spike for getting his soul because of her (I really do) but I don't know if she necessarily (fully) trusted him. Maybe at the end she did, but it's pretty unclear (at least to me).
Gwendolyn Post | April 29, 23:23 CET
flightofserenity | April 30, 00:20 CET
Buffy has trusted Spike since season 5. That's why we see her time and time again entrust Dawn to his care. In The Gift, it's Spike Buffy chooses to be Dawn's protector. She didn't call Angel and leave a message asking him to watch over Dawn. Instead, it's unsouled Spike she reaches out to.
Subconsciously Buffy always knew Spike was a different kind of vampire.
Reddygirl | April 30, 00:50 CET
And Lamb and Veronica? Wow. I've never even thought about that before. That could make a hilarious fanfic, though. Imagine Keith's reaction! :)
obsessed | April 30, 00:55 CET
One of the strengths VM shares with BtVS is that the supporting characters like Mac, Gia and Lamb are all so interesting.
Reddygirl | April 30, 01:20 CET
billz | April 30, 01:23 CET
Reddygirl | April 30, 01:26 CET
And she could hardly call Angel - he was in another dimension. Otherwise, I've no doubt he'd have been there.
love4ba | April 30, 02:33 CET
To focus solely on one ship is to watch the show from a skewed perspective and thus to miss many of the nuances. Much better to appreciate the story in its totality and to go (willingly or otherwise )whither the writers lead you.
That way you get to appreciate all of the epic couples and heroes journeys and all of the manifold complexities of life and love . Just as an example . Angel/Angelus was a complex character with a complex lovelife , Darla, Drusilla, William
(c'mon people they're vampires) Buffy, Cordelia, Gwen, Fred, Dog Girl, Spike ) If I decided to block out every relationship except for Darla/Angel/Angelus I would be denying the character's growth and progression. And just to even the score Spike's life was almost as complex Cecily, Drusilla, Angel, Harmony,Buffy, skank chick, Anya, Faith, Xander, more Angel, Fred/Illyria.
Give me a good ensemble piece where, as in life, people grow and change and interact and sometimes switch partners and I'm a happy bunny .
If we ever get a film I'd be delighted to hear about Buffy still frolicking with The Immortal and Angel off making puppies whilst Spike and Illyria try out their new relationship until Faith comes back and mixes things up a bit .
You have to go with the story . And , like Buffy I love both of my souled heroic Vamps and find the whole " my vampire is better than your vampire" spiel to be really rather silly and frankly more than a tad yawn inducing.
I personally have no intention of letting my own preconceptions about where I think any story should go get in the way of where the writers want to take it.
And as to the great epic couple Romeo and Juliet . I was watching Dead Like Me the other day and one of the characters made the point that if only Romeo had behaved like other teenaged boys and masturbated a few times a week he could have saved both families an awful lot of heartache. I love Dead Like Me!
[ edited by debw on 2006-04-30 10:16 ]
[ edited by debw on 2006-04-30 10:17 ]
debw | April 30, 03:15 CET
All of us have our own fantasies about what the characters might do or think, but reading parts of this thread has been like watching rival football team fans square up to each other. Buffy shagged Angel. Then she shagged Spike. Then she went on to someone other than either of them. And they both slept with other women (and okay, I quite like debw's other suggestions too).
And hey, for a mainstream teen-angled show in America, that makes me admire Joss even more.
roadrunner | April 30, 05:11 CET
So no more shipping talk for a while. If you want to discuss this with me, feel free to email me. Don't discuss it on site.
Simon | April 30, 06:13 CET
Humble_Pie | April 30, 06:17 CET
The thing is, I see both Buffy and Veronica as having major trust issues, and the fact that they let Spike and Logan, respectively, have their trust drives both of them crazy. It's why there's so much snark, and it's why in both cases the behaviour towards the partner is so often bipolar. Buffy entrusts Dawn and Joyce with Spike, sleeps with him, but beats him to a bloody pulp, saying that he's dead and evil inside. Veronica dumps her largely straight-arrow boyfriend (Leo) for Logan, accepts his description of their romance as "epic," and stands by him throughout a difficult murder trial, but also accuses him of raping her and killing Lilly, assumes that his drink of choice is "liquid evil", and, in the most recent episode, leaves angrily without giving him any benefit of the doubt, with respect to Kendall. Buffy is a little bit in love with Spike, and has a bit of hatred for him, and even more hatred for herself *for* loving him. Veronica's feelings for Logan aren't quite as extreme, but they're similar.
As far as whether or not Veronica and Logan are epic, consider what they have gone through together, versus what most real life couples their age have gone through. I mean...moving from hatred to love because of bonding over loss of mothers and loss of Lilly? I don't think the word "epic" is that much of an exaggeration, really. This isn't me being shippy, just...observy. (I'd say the same thing if Veronica described her relationship with Duncan as epic, and I have never thought that Bell and Dunn have that much chemistry: look at what the two of them have gone through, as opposed to most high school couples. Now, if Wallace or Jackie start using that word to describe their relationship, for example, I'd probably start crying foul.)
WilliamTheB | April 30, 07:03 CET
pat32082 | April 30, 07:11 CET
I don't think I agree with her logic. To say you love one relationship over another because you know it won't work out is a tad weak. Who cares if you know it won't work out? A relationship is still a relationship.
It's so hard for me personally to compare one relationship to another, especially in a completely different show. I love all my wonderful characters in exact equal portions of love :)
Harmalicious | April 30, 08:52 CET
GoblinQueen | April 30, 09:42 CET
"Yes, that was epic too, and had all the prerequisites of romantic doomed love, but we knew that was never going to work out."
Harmalicious, I've been also surprised by this phrase. The best part of the ship is agnst and UST.
Moscow Watcher | April 30, 09:44 CET
"Who other than the Jossman himself could create such a couple?" Shakespeare.
Given linear time and all that then of course any couple after B/A would not be as long standing. But there are plenty who came before who still have followings.
Anyhoo, I was never a Bangel or a Spuffy. It's all about the boys for me.
Wow EM, I think you just helped to prove my point. Can you think of a writer from this day and age with the staying power equavalent to that of Shakespeare? I can and that title would be strictly reserved for Joss Whedon.
I don't see much in the way of "shipper" preference when I think of the mad and crazy success of Buffy and Angel as an epic couple. They are what they are.
It's all about the boys for you, it was always all about Buffy for me. Different strokes and all.
cheryl | April 30, 10:20 CET
It wasn't always about the boys for me. I didn't "ship" exactly but I did love Xander and Cordy together. But then they broke them up. I realised why they did, that it was necessary for the plotting of the characters. Cordy had already been marked to move over to Angel the series and so logically she and Xander had to split up and move on. I "ship" Spike and Angel but I fully understand the necessity to split them up at any given time to further the story.
Should a Spike movie occur then this would be necessary. But, oh how I long for that Spangel reunion kiss. ;0)
exoticmushroom | April 30, 10:59 CET
cheryl | April 30, 11:02 CET
exoticmushroom | April 30, 11:15 CET
Veronica and Buffy both share a parental unit who is less than satisfactory and just not around when needed. And it's interesting that Buffy has lots of issues with men and V doesn't have one really close female friend.
Apologies to the board for getting all shippy.
The fact is, I beieve Buffy was in love with Angel, was in love with Riley, was in love with Spike and now is in love with the Immortal. Of course I hope one day those two crazy kids Buffy and Spike will meet up again
and start a new relationship but I don't think their love was any more epic than B/A or B/R.
I just don't see BtVS or AtS being shows about mythic romances and star-crossed lovers. Yes, romantic love was always an important element but I think it was t here to progress the characters on their respective journeys.
Edited to add I know Buffy and Veronica don't actually have the same parent.
[ edited by Reddygirl on 2006-04-30 18:22 ]
Reddygirl | April 30, 11:20 CET
spikeylover | April 30, 11:26 CET
For some reason, parties in an epic relationship tend to have no sense of humor. Imo, Romeo and Juliet are the dullest characters in the play.
If by epic you mean a very strong and passionate love, then I do love epic. But if you mean a situation where the couple are fated to be together and are soulmates who are not complete unless they are together and are better off dead if they can't be together, then I'm not a fan of "epic".
Reddygirl | April 30, 11:54 CET
I'm not sure that Veronica's abandonment by her mother is hurting her relationships with women particularly, though. Granted, Veronica's closest relationship to any female her age was with Lilly, and her mother's abandoning her is actually caused by that. But as far as the comment that Veronica doesn't have one close female friend? I think Veronica only has one close friend, period, in Wallace. Her other friends are both male and female: Mac, Meg (who died), Weevil (friendship largely based on mutual backscratching), Logan (if you call that a "friendship" per se), Jackie (sort of), and, in another backscratchy way, Cliff. One could even make an argument that she's friends with Gia. That's pretty even along gender lines. I think her mother's abandonment makes her reticent to trust people generally, which hurts her relationships with others generally, but not so much along gender lines (although, of the above list, only Mac and Meg seem like people I'd personally recommend trusting wholeheartedly).
In a way, Veronica is even more a child of a single parent than Buffy. Buffy had Joyce to nurture her home life and Giles to introduce her to the demons she will have to face in the world. Keith essentially fills both roles--which makes the Keith/Veronica dynamic so very interesting to watch. And of course, on both shows, the one good parent in Joyce/Keith is more than virtually anyone else had. At least no one's parents in Buffy are murderers. I think.
I don't see Buffy/Riley as epic per se, but I do think it was a life-changing experience for both of them, especially for Riley, who even in "As You Were" seemed more passionate about Buffy than for his wife. (But then, I'm never quite sure what to make of "As You Were.")
ETA: Reddygirl, I agree with your thoughts on epic. I don't like the R&J-syndrome. Angst with humour? Where it's at.
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-04-30 18:57 ]
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-04-30 18:58 ]
WilliamTheB | April 30, 11:56 CET
I completely believe in the power of love to transform lives and think it can be an amazing force for good, as well as tragedy. Imo, Chosen was all about love: the love Buffy felt for for her friends, her family, the Potentials, etc. Even though I believe Bufy was in love with Spike I don't think the romantic element was the most important. She felt love/love for him, too, the same kind of feeling she had for Xander or Willow. Imo, the First was defeated because of all that love floating around. I think the words of the Spirit Guide in Intervension weren't just about The Gift but also was a prophesy for Chosen.
So, it's not that I'm not a fan of love stories, I am. Just not so much into the epic romances.
Veronica and Keith have an incredibly interesting relationship. In a way, it's like Lorelei/Rory, where the parent and child operate on a different level than the traditional parent/child dynamic. V is really an old soul and I wonder it that's one reason she doesn't connect easily to people her own age. Keith has enormous faith in V's judgement and rarely do we see him do ordinary things like ground her. And now that she's 18, he worries about her but overall, he lets her make her own decisions.
[ edited by Reddygirl on 2006-04-30 19:47 ]
Reddygirl | April 30, 12:45 CET
There is something about a true selfless love that touches me on a deep emotional level.
Truthfully, the only journey I ever got 100% emotionally invested in was that of Buffy, the Scoobs and Angel. Spike was a wonderful character, don't get me wrong but when Dru went away, a lot of my love for him went away. I think she took the best parts of Spike away with her. I know everyone doesn't share in that belief but hey, we all have an opinion right?
For the record I am a BIG fan of love stories, the one told by Joss being my ultimate favorite. The fact that it came wrapped in mystery, suspense, angst and action only cements my notion that what he created nobody can or will surpass.
cheryl | April 30, 14:50 CET
love4ba | April 30, 16:48 CET
sethsky | May 01, 05:20 CET
spikeylover | May 01, 08:28 CET