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"Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said."
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May 01 2006

New David Fury Interview at Popgurls. Writing at BtVS vs. writing at 24, Xander in a speedo, and H.P. Lovecraft. Oh. And the Spike thing.

There's no 24 fan forums? Consider me surprised.
No wonder Fury posted here when we had a thread about it! He finally got a chance to discuss it online! Mr. Fury sir, come on over anytime!
As for no discussion forums, it is all action action action. Aside from major plot twists, I'm not sure how much discussion there can be.
I loved Xander in a speedo. Nicky looked really good. I think I had the same reaction Cordy did.

I agree with him about HP book 5. It was surprising how dark the books got suddenly and How angry Harry got. I think it will be VERY intresting top se how this book over all the others tramslates to movie with this darkness and attitude.

See this is were I start having issues with Spike. If he had some humanity in him when he tried to rape Buffy, then soul or no soul he is responsible for the act. It also means he knew and could understand love before the soul, so really what is the difference between souled and not souled.I am bothered by this.
I presume David means text only forums, like here and Buffistas.

There was a dedicated forum called, however the owner disappeared. I don't actually know of any dedicated 24 fan sites with forums, believe it or not.

FanForum have a forum here.
BTW, big spoilers in case anyone hasn't watched the latest eps of 24, and huge spoilers for anyone who hasn't watched Twin Peaks (and I mention it because if you haven't watched TP, you should, and you shouldn't be spoiled).
I only started watching Lost because of Fury's involvement. I just can't get into 24, though.
so really what is the difference between souled and not souled

As set out earlier in the programme's history wanting to love the girl and wanting to murder her
I can't see the reason Terry isn't happy on Lost, as unfortunately the article is gone. However, I'm presuming it's related to what has happened to his character on Lost. Where the hell did Locke from season one go in Lost?
Gossi - you can find the Locke article linked to from the bottom of this page.
You know, David Fury gives good interview. He's candid and honest and just has interesting things to say. I liked how he differentiated his post-Buffyverse work from his current work: I too miss TV that plays with allegory and metaphor. Nothing like that is on TV right now, and I sorely miss it.
Have you tried Battlestar Galactica? Trust me there is enough metaphors and allegory to make your head spin.
"See this is were I start having issues with Spike. If he had some humanity in him when he tried to rape Buffy, then soul or no soul he is responsible for the act. It also means he knew and could understand love before the soul, so really what is the difference between souled and not souled.I am bothered by this"

Humanity doesn't mean a moral code. I do think he could feel love but not the same way as humans. A more extreme feeling of it. The Judge also said that Drusilla had humanity in her but that doesn't mean that she follows it the human way. There were more then enough humans on Buffy that did bad things and their soul had never left. So in short, look at the indivudual and less to the mass-defenition.
Does David sound a bit trapped in his new digs? And by trapped I mean increasingly wealthy and well-known, but still...the lack of depth, the quick hit sugar-high thrills of 24 don't sound half as satisfying to him as his previous work. By his own estimation of his talents, it doesn't even sound like a particularly good fit (although he's certainly selling himself short as a storyteller by characterizing his work as nothing but pithy one-liners). I've never been able to watch the show based on the cheap, jittery-camera split screen visual stylings they throw up onto the screen, so while I'm assuming his work there has been stellar, I wouldn't know.
A soul does not give you a moral code either. Look at Faith, Giles Willow, Wes and many others. So him geting a soul should not make everything better, if he had the humanity and morals to know it was wrong.

Dru is insane, she understands things in the way a child does. No more or less. She loves like a child in her own tiny world.

He loved Dru, worshipped her,obsessed when she left and went to great lengths to protect her. It was the same love he showed for Buffy in season 6 and the same way he went about trying to get her to love him when she would not. I did not see a change in how he loved Buffy in season 7 as oppsoed to 6, but I respect your opinion.
So many talking points in this article. I agree, MrArg, "Uncle Fury" doesn't sound truly happy at 24.

And about Terry O'Quinn, I'm sad to see he's frustrated with his character this season. I utterly adored John Locke first season - hands down, my favorite tv character. Ever. - And it all started with Fury's "Walk About," as a matter of fact. I just don't know what happened to him this year.
I just want to say Fury is a very handsome man *fanboy crush which completely lowers the tone of thread*.
Good interview, on a wide range of topics. I agree that he sounds a little trapped at 24, which doesn't surprise me. I watch the show, but only because it always ends on a cliffhanger and i want to see where it's going to go, and because it's a fun ride. It certainly doesn't have any depth or nuance, or character development, or overarching meaning or emotions or metaphor - i'm not surprised that they only plan the plot an episode or two in advance. And it certainly doesn't seem like the best possible fit for David Fury. But it's a regular writing job on a hit show that's much better than many – in the tough world that is TV writing, that's nothing to sneeze at.

I watch Lost too, so it was interesting to see Fury's comments. I'm not surprised that it's more enjoyable for writers to write for a show that's critically acclaimed but only a cult hit, rather than having the huge pressure that comes from writing for a show with a massive audience. It also (to me, at least) always seems like producers feel more pressure to dumb down the writing a bit when theyr'e trying to pull in an ever-larger audience.
I never said that a soul gives you a moral code, I said humanity doesn't give you one.
Spike's situation is different from Faith, Wesley, Xander, Willow,etc. Because he had done alot more bad things (Except Willow who tried to destroy the world.) then them. And unlike all of them he didn't have a soul.

Dru is a psycho and I don't think that there is anything good inside of her left. He loved her in an obsessive way because he believed that she had saved him. And she's also his sire wich is why I think he stayed and took care of her for over a century.
And we always respect each others opinion, we just don't agree and that's ok.

[ edited by Caroline for punctuation and capitalisation on 2006-05-01 21:44 ]
I never dreamed I say this, but Fury and I really see eye to eye on a lot of things. (And I have to say I think the new excited 24 buzz this season has quite a bit to do with his writing)

He totally is on the same wavelength as I am about Spike. His favorite character on LOST was John Locke, and he understands that some fans really hated the way Buffy treated Spike in season six.

Editted to clarify that I'm Not saying that Spike was a saint (and certainly I don't think that Fury was either) but that there are two sides here, and I think that gets missed sometimes.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-05-02 15:51 ]
Locke is my favorite character on Lost. And I have to get shippy here and say I love the idea of Locke and Rousseau as a couple. Works for me on so many levels.
I completely understand why Terry O'Quinn isn't thrilled with his character this year. Without Fury, he seems to have "LOST" something.
*snort* Yes, indeedy.

I am enjoying lost but I have to say they don't do near as good a job as ME did in keeping momentum going during the time between fresh epis.
Great interview, great pic of Fury, plus I'll pile on as loving the T O'Quinn link. We're not happy either, Terry.

The first four episodes are generally worked out in advance, then it's completely made up as we go. The closest thing to planning is if someone has a good idea for a set-piece (i.e. Jack has to kidnap the Pope), Howard [Gordon] or Joel [Surnow] will say, "We'll do that in a couple of episodes." Ultimately, or at least often, those ideas change once we get there. And we make something else up on the spot.

OK, now I understand why 24 is not a good show (and I am being polite :P ... I can't help but think about that cougar chasing Kim Bauer in season 2 or 3... among other things...).
"Frankly, it was a lot more fun to be on a cult show that was highly regarded like Buffy and Angel. When your show's a ratings hit like Lost and 24, everyone feels too pressured. We never really concerned ourselves with ratings at Mutant Enemy. Joss was about doing the show that he loved. Consequently, I think his shows will resonate long after the others are gone."

I love this quote......God, I love him almost as much as Joss. And, that's kinda a lot.
Hey, Harmalicious, that's unfair!!

I was coming back here to quote this exact part!

I can't believe David's so "honest" (if I were an exec' of 24, reading this interview would make me think about firing someone tomorrow).

Anyhow, this exact quotation is gold and explains in a nuttshell why I can't like Lost and 24, and why Joss' verses will always be aeons before and above those shows (plus the fact that JJ Abrams accepted to make MI:III with Cruise... this does not help).
I don't get how Fury could see "Fool for Love" and not understand how Spike is different from all other vampires. That's the key episode for me when it comes to Spike.

I believe that Spike having a soul was irrevelant in terms of his feelings for Buffy. The difference is that he thinks that with a soul Buffy would accept him the way she accepted Angel.

Tangent...I think, Go Fury!
I think "Lost" is on track to totally write itself into a corner. Curiously, I have that same feeling about "Alias". Coincidence... or is it??
Remember that 24 aims to be an entirely different show from Buffy or Lost or whatever. Fury understands this, which is why he can speak so candidly about it (well, nothing could stop Fury from speaking candidly...).

I love that Joss' shows were driven by artistic motivation rather than ratings. But I also love that there are shows like 24 and movies like M:I that aim simply to entertain.
Alias did that about 2 years ago, Scotto! Fans are just riding out the string and hoping agents Doggett and Reyes, er, Grace and Gibson continue being marginalized while Amy Acker gets more and more screen time. Having Fred and Jasmine in a room together again, even for 30 seconds, was aces.

I can buy Locke's character becoming more unhinged as his stay on the island gets longer and stranger, but overall this series has lost a fair amount of punch and mystery this season. Much like "Who Killed Laura Palmer?," the essentially one-note mystery will need to be solved or the audience will lose interest (dolled up as it is with multiple characters and backstories as it may be).

Bring on Drew Goddard to save Locke's bacon in Season 3!
I agree, MrArg. I'm very excited about DG coming to Lost.
MrArg - you are probably right. I was mostly thinking about how seriously unlikely it is that will even remotely be satisfying. That was one of the smart things Joss did - don't let storylines build up over years and years. Wrap 'em up, let the characters grow, let some changes happen to the world of the characters. "Alias" is practically "The Simpsons" at this point in terms of how much I buy that any of the characters ever actually change. Aaaaanyway...
Right now, I think the best-written character is Henry Gale. I hope he sticks around next year.
Best written character on "Lost", in terms of the dialogue the writers give them? Obviously, Vincent--they haven't screwed up a single line! Good actor, too. Although the writers never seem to know when to use him.

Seriously, this season has disappointed me. One thing that I've noticed is that the incidental characterization is down from last year; sometimes characters are handled well enough in their headliner episodes (and sometimes not there), but not elsewhere. For example, the only episode I can think of this season where Jack wasn't entirely boring was one of the Jack-centric ones, where they went out to find Michael, and Jack's fundamental inability to let go was brought up again. Similarly, I liked the "Lockdown" (hee! I love title puns) episode, and Locke's semi-crisis of faith therein, but have been bored silly by this once-great character the rest of the season. And the number of miracles revealed in the last few weeks (miracle baby! miracle cancer-be-gone!) has really made me want to give up. That said, I still like Sayid, Anna Lucia has become somewhat less annoying lately, and I am interested in where the Henry thing is going. Plus, Michael's back. (Cue vague explanation?) I'll ride out until the end of the season, anyway.

There's something really gratifying to see Fury comment on the joys of working on an artistically driven show rather than on a ratings-driven one. Not that there's nothing at all artistic about "Lost" (can't really comment on "24" or whatnot), but I guess ratings do have that corrupting influence.

ETA: I guess while we're on the Fury subject, I should note that this season has felt like Fury-lite all year. The shock of "Walkabout" turns into "Oh, so another person was cured by the island, great." The bizarre tragicomic I-have-no-freaking-clue-what-to-think-of-this "Numbers" turns into episode after episode about how weird those numbers are, and another Hurley-centric episode in which the possibility that the island is all about him is brought up, but in a much more straightforward and derivative way. (For fun, I watched "Normal Again" shortly after watching the similar Hurley episode, and...well, we'll say that I like mostly everything about the former better.)

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-05-02 02:03 ]
I love Fury but never got into 24 either. I was happier to see him on Lost. And frankly, I didn't have as many problems with the way Buffy treated Spike as the other way around, but different strokes and all that.

I hope that Fury continues to do big things.
What a great interview. What a great man.

Enough said.
I can't help but think about that cougar chasing Kim Bauer in season 2 or 3

There was an interview with someone from 24 (maybe Howard?) where he said that when they planned the season out in a more rigid fashion, they ended up getting into trouble and needing filler. Which led to things like Kim and the mountain lion.

Personally, I'm enjoying 24 more this season than I have since the very beginning of the show. Though I keep expressing my concern that, at the rate they're going, the season finale will be
Bwahaha, WilliamB. Yes, Vincent has been note perfect all season long. I like Jack overall, but I think part of the problem of the season is they have been focusing too heavily on him and he has often annoyed me. And any Kate/Jack scene is irritating. I really like Kate, but get the woman within two feet of Jack and she loses all her sass. I found the whole scene where Jack and Kate were strung up in that trap really irritating, especially the part where Jack insisted on firing the gun.

But, I have hopes the last epis of the season will redeem the whole year.
I love Lost, 24 and David Fury. His honestly is refreshing and I agree that he is comparable to Joss Whedon in the greatness.
It's nice to hear that Joss didn't really map out season arcs years in advance. I've always suspected the same but to hear David admit it...I appreciate his honestly and love the fact that we can finally put that rumor to rest.
Reddy...I LOVE Jack's character and have the exact opposite feelings, I think we have seen too LITTLE of him this season.
Kate is blaw, let Saywer have her.

Lucinda, I agree. Spike's treatment of Buffy hit me harder than her treatment of him. Hello, soulless demon.
Season 6 was very dark and depressing for Buffy but in retrospect, it was a breath of fresh air compared to the nightmare of some of season 7. One ep says it all. Empty Places. The episode designed to showcase the free space found in each of the Scoobies heads.
I feel that season six Buffy and Spike interaction was all about two people hurting each other - equally. I was surprised at how much the "for you" speech hit a nerve. I would have been pretty devastated if anyone had hit me with that statement. Words were important because those chacters could not hurt each other physically. That's one reason why I hate the attempted rape. It just seemed false and it seemed to me that it was a way for the powers that be to get Spike out of Sunnydale. I don't think they anticipated the furor that ensued.

Also loved the interview. Fury is an interesting guy. Times come when it's possible to disagree with him, but he isn't ever boring. He also seems to be a good man as well.
I completely agree with the above poster. The attempted rape felt very OOC and forced (lol, probably the wrong word to use).
I don't know, after reviewing a few times the season seems less severe than upon first viewing. I never "felt" Spike's pain the way I did Buffy's.
SR was an episode that nobody enjoyed with the AR, imo. *I* didn't need to see it to get the point that Spike was a bad boyfriend or that the relationship was unhealthy and abusive.
I think it was more about proving that to the audience than getting Spike out of town, as the writers hadn't decided to go the soul route yet.
Who really knows for sure, the latter seasons were written so vaguely that it's anyone's guess. No offense to anyone who loved the last seasons but imo, it greatly lacked the Joss touch. His absense was tangible.
Really? I thought the attempted rape was very in character for Spike. He has shown in the past that when he doesn't get his way with the woman he wants that he will resort to force.

Choking Dru into submission in Becoming II - going off to "tie her up, torure her till she likes me again" - chaining up both Dru and Buffy in Crush - all an attempt to force the women to do what he wanted them to. So the attempted rape felt very in character for Spike - to me.
I agree that it was in character for Spike at that time but it still wasn't necessary, imo. Spike was always a loose canon, so to speak, he could have just left town. Or woke up in love with somebody else. Sorry, I couldn't resist... I am joking about that last part.
Oh I agree that it wasn't necessary for all of the fans. I certainly didn't need to see it to know that the B/S relationship in season 6 was not about love or romanace. It was done very clearly to show Buffy being emotionally empty and suicidal - it was the bad boy/bad boyfriend stage. But out of character? Nah.
I started watching Lost because of Fury too. I'm not into 24 at all. Nowhere Man was a 100% better show that 24.People who worked on that show are working with 24.
I think Spike was a different kind of vampire because of how nice William was. When Angelus Sired William that didn't change.
I think the attempted rape was used to get Spike out of town and I was more shocked at them using something that horrific just so he would leave than I was at the actual scene itself.
It wasn't a(n attempted) rape...and if you don't believe me, just ask Luke and Laura. ;)

Is Fury unhappy at "24"? I think he's just someone who's unhappy anywhere; and in turn, he's glad to be unhappy. Does that make sense?

If we ever met, we'd probably get along famously, too.
I'm sorry, it wasn't an attempted rape? Gotta disagree with you there. And I don't believe any of the writers ever called it anything but what it was - attempted rape.

Heck, for that matter look at the scene again. Look at season 7 when Buffy herself says "you tried to rape me".

I'm really hoping I misunderstood what you mean there but I can't take something like that lightly - or as a joke.

[ edited by love4ba on 2006-05-02 08:05 ]
The tone of this thread has somewhat gone for a burton here. I did ask in previous threads to avoid the shipping debate and there will never be any consensus on the AR issue from Seeing Red. So let's drop it for the time being.
Slightly OT, but only slightly: I just saw a preview for this week's LOST, including , which reminded me why I always try to avoid previews. I mean, shameless, much?
"gone for a burton?"

Forgive my off-topicness but I have to know. What does that mean? What are its origins?

I have never heard that expression before and find myself strangely compelled to know.
It's an old World War One British navy air wing phrase. I came across it in an old Biggles book years and years ago. It would refer to pilots killed in action and also meant that things were in a bad state of affairs.
"gone for a burton?"

Forgive my off-topicness but I have to know. What does that mean? What are its origins?

I have never heard that expression before and find myself strangely compelled to know.

This may refer to Tim Burton's universes: strange and a little disturbing, but always poetical.

Wait... maybe not, in fact.

"gone for a burton" is something Elizabeth Taylor did twice, at least.
"Gone for a Burton" is a British slang term which translates roughly as "out to lunch," "missing" or, applied to a machine such as your friend's computer, "not functioning."

It seems to be generally accepted that "gone for a Burton" is World War II-vintage Royal Air Force slang, first appearing in print in 1941. The original meaning of the term was a bit of black humor, much grimmer than the modern usage. It referred to a flier (at best) missing in action, or (at worst) definitely killed, someone who had, in the equivalent American phrase of the same period, "bought the farm."

The question of who or what the "Burton" in question might have been, however, has led to several theories. Montague Burton, goes one explanation, was a firm of tailors in Britain known for their fine suits. According to this theory, the phrase sardonically suggested that a missing flier had gone off to be fitted for a suit. Other theories involved the inflatable "Brethon" life jackets at one time issued by the RAF.

The most convincing explanation, however, traces "Burton" to pre-war British slang. The popular line of Bass Ales were brewed in the town of Burton-on-Trent in Staffordshire, England, and a glass of ale was known colloquially as simply "a Burton." Evidently the Bass brewery sponsored a series of advertisements shortly before the war, each of which involved a situation in which one person was clearly missing, as indicated by an empty chair at a dinner table or the like. The "tag line" of each ad was the same: "Gone for a Burton."

Since this phrase was already imprinted on the public imagination by the advertisements, it would have been a logical candidate for a catch phrase used to explain the disappearance of a comrade in battle.

gacked from
I share your shock, WillamB. Just glad we're finally going to get a new epi.
William the B....I hadn't seen that preview. Wonder how in the world the writers get the characters there. Whoa!
I can honestly say that I would have never seen that coming.

I certainly didn't mean to make light of rape, or even attempted rape (for the record, I think rape, itself, is no laughing matter); and I certainly didn't mean to re-ignite the debating flames over "the AR issue".

What I was trying to do, I guess, was make a funny. I thought that was obvious w/ the "Luke and Laura" part. (We have heard of Luke and Laura, right?) I mean, if you take L&L's word for it (that it wasn't a rape), uh, just consider the source.

But, I admit, it was a bad funny, and one that has led to some terrible confusion.

Mea culpa.

No, seriously.

Now, as you guys were saying...?

[ edited by Khan on 2006-05-02 15:24 ]
Yes, I saw that LOST spoiler. Blame it on me. Any character I ship is doomed to go down destructo highway.

What I was trying to do, I guess, was make a funny. I thought that was obvious w/ the "Luke and Laura" part. (We have heard of Luke and Laura, right?)

No, we haven't; well, at least not me...

What's the reference behind "Luke and Laura"?
Allow wikipedia to be your guide Le Comité
I miss Fury on Lost, but the show is still fresh and very, very, very interesting to me. Yeah, it's way different from Buffy, but it became one of my favourite tv shows of all time (I hope I'll can say this when the series ends, but I have faith in Lindelof & Cuse)

And I can't understand why Terry O'Quinn is not happy. I really liked what they're doing with his character this season.
Simon and debw, thanks and WOW!

Jaynelovesvera, hahaha, thats exactly where my mind went!

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