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"What else would I wanna pump you for?"
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May 09 2006

Video interview with Joss from the Saturn Awards. Joss discusses where he is with Wonder Woman and the chances for the Spike movie ever getting made in an interview at IESB.

Part of this as been posted before as a print interview but I believe the bit about Spike the movie is new.

Thanks derf, it's always nicer (to me) to see and hear these things rather than just read the words. Inflection, nuance, expression, etc.
Summary for those who can't watch video:

Wonder Woman - no news. Still writing. Could possibly maybe slightly enter production this year (but not for release).

Spike Movie - he's pitched it every way possible in the past to TPTB. He's waiting to see if anybody wants to make it, ultimately, I think.

Serenity - nothing planned except for comics. At least for now.

X-Men 3 - he's not flying to New York to see the premiere. I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked. Drop everythang, Joss, and fly that plane! (But you should send legal representation to compare the comics to the screen...). (Maybe).
I can't help but to wonder who it is that's putting the screws to the Spike movie. Time is running out for James and his timeline. Maybe we should start asking about a huge multi character BIG screen movie. Something that would bring all the characters back. Maybe that would appeal to THEM more.

I think if something doesn't happen soon the chance of us seeing James Marsters as Spike again will be slim to none. I suppose his character could be recast, if something came together later than the set time frame but I don't think a lot of fans would find that any more appealing than if they recast Buffy, Angel, Giles, Willow, Xander, Dru etc... IMO.
I 99.999% doubt JW (etc) would run at the chance to do a recast Spike feature. Really don't. It'd be like doing a Serenity film with a different Mal - it just wouldn't happen.

It's not - by the sounds of it, this is just my opinion - somebody blocking the Spike thing. It's nobody jumping on the project. To me, it's likely a fair amount of money for whoever to make from DVD exclusive sales from Buffy fans. I suspect a lot of Buffy fans would buy it. However, my interest isn't from the interest point of view of a studio.
Fine, since you all want it so much, I'll produce the darn Spike movie.

But, in exchange, you have to do all the legwork of turning me into somebody who has that kind of power. Fair?
I don't think anyone else could play Spike as well as James can.
Oh please. There are so many people who could play Spike was well as James can!

I mean there's...and there's...and of course there's...

Ha, I kid of course. Seriously, if anyone else had played Spike, I really think they might have killed him off in S2.
Did it sound like Joss was still pushing the idea to TPTB?
No, it sounded like he'd pushed it all he could and wasn't actively doing anything else unless one of those people comes back to him with interest. As he said he has plenty to keep him busy.
It sounds like he's done pushing the idea.He says that he's pitched a Spike movie every way he can and there is not much more that he can do.He says here that he's said pretty much everything he can on the subject and he has no idea if it will ever happen.All he is going to do now is wait and in my opinion,really at this point that's all he can do.It's out of his hands and up to TPTB.He's made his attempts and if they ever become interested he would be up for it but he can't force them.

I think it's interesting that he seems to confirm that he has made several different pitches for a Spike movie.That he's pitched it every way he can.We know it was talked about in different formats such as a T.V. movie and then a DVD movie.I wonder what each pitch was and how they were different,besides format.

To me,this is now similar to the Serenity sequel prospects.Only in this case there is a limited time left in regards to James Marsters willingness to reprise the role.

I agree,I can't see anybody else in the part of Spike just like I can't see anybody else in the other characters roles either.If an actor is no longer available or doesn't want to do the role anymore at a certain point,I would rather have the project not happen then have the character re-cast.That goes for Buffy as well even though SMG was not the first actress to play the part.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2006-05-10 05:42 ]
Thanks, derf, for the link. I tend to agree with everyone here in this thread. I even get the feeling that Joss feels that if he keeps pushing TPTB any harder, it might have a negative effect. It seems to me that he feels a lot of frustration about how this seemingly isn't going anywhere--yet he keeps getting questioned about it. I think the same reasoning may apply to those of us (me, especially!) eager fans who might inadvertantly pressure Joss in our eagerness to see the Spike movie through to fruition.

Honest, Mr. Sweden, no pressure! I just want you to know that we're all still hoping for this in a big way. I've got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed, even if they're in danger of getting stuck that way.
Forgive me for asking, but who or what is "TPTB" exactly? I have been keeping up with the Spike movie news pretty closely(call it an obsession if you will), but somehow this has escaped me.
Weeeeeeeeeeell, maybe we could have a Spike movie where Spike lives long enough to encounter Mal and his intrepid crew? Kill two fandoms with one stone, so to speak.
TPTB=The Powers That Be which is in this case,20th Century Fox.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2006-05-10 06:33 ]
Duh...(directed towards myself). Thanks Buffyfantic. After a year of lurking you'd think I'd remember that. It was bugging me not knowing exactly who to curse for holding this up!
First off no-one but no-one else could play Spike. Like no-one else could play Angel, Giles, Wesley, Xander, etc.

So the Spike movie is now in the same limbo as the Ripper movie then. Shame, real shame. I can't help but feel that Joss, if he really wanted it, could get it. He did with Serenity, why not Spike or Ripper.

Like when Ats was cancelled and people bust a gut trying to get it renewed, people have been working hard trying to get the Spike movie made. In both instances Joss has not displayed the kind of passion he did in getting Serenity made. My question is why couldn't he have saved people the time and energy by telling them he just wasn't all that bothered.

I like how Spike ended in NFA so I'm not too bothered there wont be a movie. But a lot of people have spent time, money and energy keeping the ball rolling on this thing. I think they could have been told a long time ago not to waste there time as Joss wasn't as passionate about it as they were. Which is fine of course. No-one is saying Joss has to love every show/charcter equally. They're his babies after all. I just feel a little better communication and clarity in this case was warranted.
My question is why couldn't he have saved people the time and energy by telling them he just wasn't all that bothered.

Woah now. Let me just clarify this - we do not know how much time Joss invested in the Spike project. I know he met with Tim, James and other people multiple times over it. I know he met with studio folk over it - probably multiple times. He also -- I suspect -- planned out a good idea but what he wanted to do in terms of story.

I do not believe this is a case -- at all -- of Joss not being bothered with the project. If he wasn't that bothered, he wouldn't have done the above. Joss made no money from doing the above. He (potentially) lost a lot of time doing it.
We cannot possibly know how Joss feels about a Spike movie so I think it's a bad idea to put words in his mouth or intentions (or lack of them) in his heart.

Bear in mind that Firefly was killed very early in its run after he'd spent a long time thinking the universe through, finding the perfect actors for the roles and generally falling in love with it. That's pretty fierce motivation to continue the story.

Spike, on the other hand, has had two, IMO very fitting endings to his arc and appeared off and on for 6 seasons of television so it's quite understandable if there isn't quite the same fire in his belly to bring him back.

That said, as gossi mentions, any efforts he makes are above and beyond the call of duty, IMO, since they're for free and take time he could probably find a use for elsewhere (e.g. Goners, WW, various comics, not to mention, y'know, his family).
As a James fan, I didn't get any indication that he knew much about the project, except it was mentioned before ATS ended and he said he'd do it.

So, I guess we get it in comic books, but without Angel/Spike involved.. It could be canon, depending on whether you can speak their names, I guess--but not everyone who watched Buffy reads comics.

The Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle (rectangle) seems to be the great divide and I think Joss knows that. I really don't know why he'd even want to take on that task in the first place, but I hate that people who invested so much into the project were let down.

Still, in Fan fiction, Buffy/Spike live snarkily ever after, or Angel is basking with Buffy's cookies. Fred/Spike/Illyria are madly in love, (and do kinky things with tentacles) while Spangel hold hands and do other um...things that involve more than one time.

That said, I feel incredibly sad this morning.

...And NOBODY else will ever be Spike but James Marsters.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-05-10 12:50 ]
As a James fan, I didn't get any indication that he knew much about the project, except it was mentioned before ATS ended and he said he'd do it.

He's said in interviews before he had met with Joss about it a few times, I believe.

Ultimately, if people want to keep campaign for a Spike thing, they should. The *studio/network* people are the people to target, as they would finance it, and _that_ is the problem.
Well, if there is no Spike movie, I don't see why we can't have comic and novels that feature post-NFA Spike.

I had assumed one reason on the comics were stuck in the past, much to my frustration, was because they (whoever they are) didn't want to write even anything non-canony because of the possibility of the movie.

I want to know what Spike's up to now.
Well, 'Angel: Old Friends' is set post-NFA though, obviously, since it's an Angel comic Spike isn't the centre of attention. BTW, if you want to know what he's up to, as it turns out he's still kicking arse and being a sarky sod in the process ;).

(and just to add in the comics vein that it looks like the Illyria spotlight issue is finally released this week along with 'Spike: Lost and Found')
Huge shame if the Spike movie doesn't happen - but on the other hand I can quite see why Joss might feel now that he'd be flogging a dead horse by continuing to push it. It sounds like everyone who might have the resources to make it knows that it is a possibility, nd that time is limited - so what more can he do?

It's something I'd love to see though, along with Ripper.
I have the same questions as EM does. Did Joss push for the Spike movie like he tried to save Angel or like he did to get Serenity made? Big difference there. And I do wonder what effect Joss's insistence to skip network TV and go straight to DVD had on whether the movie got made. And just who are the mysterious TPTB? Why have we not heard any industry gossip about Joss pitching the movie?

And gossi, James has said Joss called him twice, once as ATS was ending and again last spring, to ask if he was still willing to do the movie. James has also said most of what he heard about the Spike movie was from someone who had talked to someone else who had supposedly talked to Joss.
Okay, misconceptions abound here.

"Did Joss push for the Spike movie like he tried to save Angel or like he did to get Serenity made? "

Well, we know he took it to various commercial people. With regards to Angel, I really don't know how hard Joss pushed for that after season 5, but I know either Joss or David (Furiousy) said at some point he wish he'd pushed it a little in retrospect.

With regards to Serenity in motion picture form, Mary Parent took a look at Firefly, and the ball started rolling. A script was asked for very soon after, and the movie entered production. Of course, there was the bit before then where the show was repitched to UPN, Sci-Fi etc... Ultimately, that was a show people thought would run for 7 years, and it ran for about 1/20th of that time. Universal wanted to make it into a motion picture - I don't beleive it took years to convince them, as that simply isn't true. Are companies falling over themselves to make a Spike project? No. Is that Joss fault? No.

And I do wonder what effect Joss's insistence to skip network TV and go straight to DVD had on whether the movie got made.

Did Joss insist this? Did he pitch it to WB?

And just who are the mysterious TPTB?

They're the corporate execs at companies like 20th Century Fox, Paramount etc etc. They decide if they want to spend millions of dollars on a project.

Why have we not heard any industry gossip about Joss pitching the movie?

We don't, generally, hear industry gossip about pitches as they happen -- because they tend to be surrounded in secrecy, until somebody picks them up.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 14:19 ]
And I do wonder what effect Joss's insistence to skip network TV and go straight to DVD had on whether the movie got made.

I never got the impression that Joss was insistant upon skipping network TV. The feeling I got was that the networks were unresponsive, so he was looking into other options to get it made. A smart and reasonable thing to do in my opinion.

We joke around like Joss is some sort of god, but the fact of the matter is that he's human. He cannot simply exert his will and make a project happen. His energy is not limitless. He fought hard to get Serenity and if he didn't fight with the same iron grit when Angel was cancelled or to get the TV movies made I suspect it was a matter of sheer exhaustion, rather than what some here seem to be implying.
I find the accusatory tone this thread is taking quite uncalled for. None of us have any idea what really goes on behind the scenes, nor do we have any right to know it. Whedonesque will not become the place where fans whine about not getting their pony. Drop it, please.
Hear, hear (though I was actually more upset about not getting the plastic rocket. Stupid Buddha ;).

We joke around like Joss is some sort of god, but the fact of the matter is that he's human

Nooooo ! Blasphemer ! Is the current correct response stoning or burning ? Can't find it on the 'About' page but i'm sure i've seen it somewhere ;-).

(poor old Joss, turns out 'He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy !' ;)
Joss is, in fact, a very naughty Wonder Boy.
Somehow I think TPTB simply want to milk the cash cow until it is dry, but not invest any more money in it.
I think they are fools of course,and you'd think that with all the revenue DVDs generate they would be willing to invest in more for the Verse. Sadly...if Spike does not interest them...then I have very little hope that anything else from the Verse will either...big screen, little screen or DVD.
As for that 'multi character reunion major feature film'...I wouldn't hold your breath.
I'm saddened but not surprised about this. In my head I'd already Filed the Spike Movie with " Ripper" and any continuation of Serenity under " almost certainly not gonna happen" .Had there been any chance it would have been to ride on the momentum of the publicity surrounding Angel's cancellation.

The bigger picture makes me sadder still. No Spike movie also means no Giles movie, no Illyria movie no Willow movie , no possibility of a big B/A reunion film ( not that that ever seemed terribly likely given the comments and subsequent careers of SMG and DB).

The Buffyverse is complete.(I can't bring myself to use the *D* word)

Long live fanfic and comic books.

And a huge " Thank you" to all of those people who devoted so much time, energy and personal resources to campaigning for a continuation of this amazing universe.

[ edited by debw on 2006-05-10 15:14 ]
It wouldn't surprise - at all - if a Buffy movie (by which I mean major motion picture) happened at some point. The Buffy character is truly iconic worldwide. I suppose it really depends on the fate of Wonder Woman.
It would not only surprise me, it would flabbergast me... and need a recast because I really can't see either SMG or DB going back. And unlike Wonderwoman the only really real Buffy is Buffy and she's moved on.
Oh, she certainly has - to motion pictures. Obviously, she needs to seperate herself from Buffy - her next role is a stripper - and she is doing just that.

However, 5 years time, $10m on the table -- whatyagonnado?

Who knows if it'll happen, but like I say, wouldn't surprise me. If WW explodes...
I honestly don't think WW is going to explode gossi. It might be successfull, but then again...who knows????

And I agree with debw...DB and SMG have moved on to other maybe in 5-10 years all the Scoobie gang or whatever will have moved on too.

Plus...they will have since this was an issue that JM was concerned will no doubt be an issue with lots of the other actors as well.
Even if some of them will still be in their 30's or 40's , maybe not all of them will have aged as gracefully as JM, so I have a feeling a big screen version will be recast, and I for one see these characters as iconic...I don't want to see them played by other actors.

Plus a big screen version with no Spike...well..why would I waste my money anyway???? Sorry

Maybe Joss can try to get post NFA Spike and Angel into his comics somehow...if no movies are possible. or maybe Joss can give IDW or whoever the go ahead to write stories post NFA....just saying...
I vaguely remember Joss saying years ago that he always meant Buffy to be an icon like James Bond or Superman. It's arguable that she is now, but I wonder if that would include numerous actresses playing her over the years (since these are the types of characters that pop up again and again for decades). A movie would be a schizo proposition. The die hards would want continuity stuff and referrences to the 12 seasons of TV, but it would have to accessible as well. Not saying it's impossible or that Joss couldn't do it, just looks really difficult. 'Course I said the same thing with Serenity, and look how beautifully that turned out.
Ah, you see, would a Buffy movie have to have the characters in high school, or in their early 20s? Nope. I'd love to see these characters in the future, which is part of the reason I'll be getting me some Buffy season 8 comics. My theory is always just because we get old, we don't have to suck.

Wonder Woman has the prospect of being a $100m-200m picture, if the studio gets behind it properly, people actually go see it and it doesn't suck.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 16:09 ]
I, for one, am waiting patiently to see what wonders (no pun intended) Joss comes up with next for us.
The 'verses he has created so far are wondrous, and if we get more, terrific. But let's never forget how damn lucky we are to have had them in the first place. Y'know, the creative muse is as whimsical as the executive decisions of TPTB. Impossible to predict, and NOT readily coerced by begging. All we can do is keep passing out the kool-aid, and hope that one day our numbers will add up to a sure thing.
Definitely, greentara. 12 (and a half) seasons of TV and one big screen motion picture over less than a decade has been amazing fun. I'm sure over the next decade many great things will also happen.

And this isn't meant to sound as cheesy as it does.
Wear the cheese, gossi. Don't let it wear you. ;)
Who knows if it'll happen, but like I say, wouldn't surprise me. If WW explodes...
gossi | May 10, 15:24 CET

An exploding Wonder Woman!! Bang goes the franchise.
Dude, it's all about the final act tenson. Have Wonder Woman explode, then The A-Team reconstruct her using string and a tank at the last minute. I should have been a writer..

Edit: I just found out they're making a Knight Rider motion picture. I'm applying for that RIGHT NOW.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 16:26 ]
I do believe in the Spike Movie -I do, I do!

And I will safely retire to Oz where magical ruby slippers make all my dreams come true. Joss is the Wizard and all his 'verses continue on, seamlessly, with no loss of continuity and old friends are resurrected to fight again and we can all enjoy it to the end of our days.
I didn't ask my questions in an accusatory tone and I didn't see it from anyone else. I saw legitimate questions that people want answered, prefereably by Joss, as he is the only one who posts on this board that actually can answer them.

JM got two phone calls in 2 years about this project. I get the impression that AA and AH knew more about it than the guy who would actually play the character. JM seemed to obtain most of his information on the project from his fans at Q&A's.

Of course that is only my interpretation of the situation, if Joss wants to clarify I wish he would.
Well, to me this pretty much puts a Spike movie to bed. As much as I'd love to see it happen, I never really put much faith in it. (and yes, the pun is intended) ;) I'm grateful to have had what we did. The Spike character is what got me hooked on the whole Jossverse anyway. It's his continued story in which I'm interested. To me, there has never been, nor will there ever be, another fictional character to compare. Thank god for good fanfic authors and all the wonderful, faithful fans because our interest has never flagged.
exoticmushroom, what part of 'dropping the subject' is unclear to you?
If WW explodes......we'll have WW 2. This would be very cool, and knowing Joss (cuz ya know we're best friends), he'll want to be heavily involved. We maybe waiting a long time, but someday I do think a feature film will happen. Fingers crossed.
Cheryl, I know that with your being a huge Spike fan that it's hard to believe that people exist out there who spend inordinate amounts of time and money campaigning Fox to 'not' do a Spike movie, but unfortunately such people do exist(they're small in number but apparently determined) and if you want to email me, I'll more than happily pass along the various sites to find such 'fans'.(But be warned, some of their antics can make you a bit queasy)

TPTB have always seemed to me to be at odds with Joss's vision of the Buffyverse. Like they didn't ever quite understand what he was doing with Buffy or any of the other various characters. The books seem completely stripped of anything that made the character so iconic, or the Hellmouth so compelling. The comics are only slightly for the Spike ones remarkably.

As for Spike, I would love to hear what it was exactly Joss pitched to the Suits. When we learned that the call came down that Spike's appearance wasn't to change one iota in ATS 5, well that sent a chill through me. The appeal of Spike was his changing nature. He's probably the most perfect trickster to ever grace a television vehicle. The thing is though, Spike had reached a part in his journey that he would have transformed yet again. If Joss had pitched a story of Spike's next chapter to the Suits who only wanted helmet haired/black coat/lots of snark then I just don't see how Joss could have ever sold them on a movie. And the point is, most Spike fans don't want him frozen in snark, most fans want to see what else he's gotten up to/into/out of...we want more. And my gut tells me, Fox just doesn't understand that.

And lastly, am I the only one who found Joss less than upbeat in general during that clip?(Like he was just having a bad day all around?)
it's hard to believe that people exist out there who spend inordinate amounts of time and money campaigning Fox to 'not' do a Spike movie, but unfortunately such people do exist

Uhm, has anybody actually heard of people spending time and money convincing Fox not to do a Spike project before? I haven't. If people are actually doing that, they're a little nuts as studioes simply won't care.

As for Joss, yeah, the upbeat was slightly lacking. Which could well be down to, well, children, a major motion picture script, private life and all that joy. I'm crabby today because I didn't get much sleep, and the last cup of tea I got was cold (really, it leads to mental trauma if you're British).

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 17:37 ]
My impression of that interview is that he feels bad that he has no new news to report, and he knows it's disappointing to fans. It is probably just as frustrating to him. He has always been upfront and candid, and we all appreciate that so much. I don't doubt his efforts, though my heart is breaking as well.

[ edited by girlpowerbit on 2006-05-10 17:43 ]
Well, gaping big bummer on the Spike movie. I wanted to see James do Spike one last time. I keep hoping to come to this site a see "Spike Movie Finally Green Lit". I'll stop holding my breath as it seems the suits are to stupid to know a good thing when they see it, as usual.
It's true that most of this thread is speculation- though everyone seems to agree:

#1: Yes, it would be great to have a Spike movie
#2: If it takes too long to get made, it won't be as much fun to see the actors age at a point that the characters lose credibility.

Not to add more confusion, but there is wondering on a few other bits:

#3: How hard/expensive IS it to get a movie made independently for straight to dvd?

It's not accusory.... but it is a bit mystifying, because (since I'm not in the business myself)- is it a question of budget that's holding this back?

Why would a "Spike" straight to dvd movie cost more than many other straight to dvd movie that fill the shelves with pretty good fx?

The second thought would be: maybe it's not the budget, but the ownership:

Maybe Mr. Whedon doesn't own these properties 100%.... that the characters are also owned (or partially owned?) by 20th Century Fox--- and therefore, it's not the budget or the difficulty of it getting made productionwise, but of whether or not Fox approves creatively of where Mr.Whedon wants to go with the character, as was suggested in this thread.

Because there's no real source to go to for this kind of information on how the structure works on this--- and with the frustration of time running out to do this right, it's understandable why those of us not in Hollywood (or 'in the loop') would keep questioning in frustration what the specifics are.

At the same time, since Mr. Whedon has a lot of other things on his plate- I assume raising a family/ prepping Wonder Woman/ doing the Xmen comix- as well as living his own life.... while multitasking, it's hard to blame anyone for not making the Spike film his ONLY pursuit.

But, of course, will still hope something turns up...soon.
After all, the "Spiderman" film was stuck in legal hell for YEARS... then Sony cut through all the red tape and a movie was made pretty damn quick after that- almost overnight, in a situation that was reportedly 'impossible' to break through.

Wonder if all it takes is the right person at the right place at the right time to say 'yes'? (but then again, maybe that can apply to everything in life?) ;)

[ edited by harvey chin on 2006-05-10 17:52 ]
Well, ultimately, one episode of Firefly averaged about $1.5m budget. Buffy, obviously, had far less money -- but it was still a lot of money per episode. You may be able to make a Spike project for a tiny, tiny budget -- but there's a few angles to explore. Like, would it look crap compared to - say - Buffy. And would the actors want to do it for no money? And the writers/directors/etc?

Realistically, the amount of money you need depends on the story, but it wouldn't surprise me if $40,000 would eat up licensing rights for the characters alone. The difference between indy film making and Hollywood is big.

Also, if you want to hear a film a long time in the making - take a look at Wonder Woman. That film has been in development a long, long time - Warner Bros registered the domain back in 1998.
I have no doubt Joss tried but there are limits and a point comes where there is not much else he can do.

As for a Buffy big screen film.SMG has said she would be open to it under the right conditions.It depends on if she likes the script.She says she has concern about making it work in the 2 hour time frame but if Joss can make it work,she would be open to it.

DB has repeatedly said he wants to and that's the only way he would agree to come back,if it was a feature.

It couldn't happen in the near future anyway with Joss having a full plate but in a few years,maybe.

I don't know if anybody ever saw this.It was from right after Angel was canceled.

A BUFFY-ANGEL Motion Picture??

I am Hercules!!
The key paragraph be in blue:
Hi Harry - Youve still got the best movie site around!

My Name's Ben, I attend the Digital Media Arts College here in Boca Raton, fl.

Yesterday we were privy to a special forum of screenwriters. No one especially biggish - but Liz Craft, a TV writer for television's "Angel" (more on that in a minute) and Mitch Markowitz, who does writing for the show "Monk".

Markowitz was the writer of Good Morning Vietnam, and told us a bit about the movie's surprise success and a follow-up that might still happen.

He explained that in his wildest dreams he never imagined it would be the success it was. He said Robin Williams made up most of the lines as he went along, and he couldn't imagine it being the success it was without him - or had they gone for the original choice (didnt say who). Around the time, Touchstone asked him to work on a sequel called

"Good Morning Chicago". What happened with that, was that robin's status rose a little quicker than everyone anticipated and he was solid booked for years after vietnam. Their was also some problems writer/studio style - one wanted it to be simply laughs, another more dramatic, like the original. Ultimately, it didnt happen. BUT it's still in tact, and currently another studio has been looking at. It's on a pile at the unnamed studio somewhere - and he has no idea what'll happen to it, if anything, but last he heard chances were significantly better for this sequel to be made than they were in 1987.

Ok, now on to Angel. Craft hinted that the series mightn't be back next year - but didn't say anything.Of course it all makes sense now - some of the other ideas for the buffy universe that are being discussed. As the statement by warner says they are looking at doing a series of telemovies, at one time Craft said that joss whedon had plans for a "Buffy/Angel" film - not telemovie - but decided to wait until both series were off the air.

It would be the one movie re-teaming both characters, angel and buffy. she fielded a few questions about it, but didn't know much. just said wait till both shows are off the air and then joss will probably get something going, a'la firefly.

i thought that small bit might cheer up some of those angel fans. and also thought the news might be of some use to you.

Ben McGraw

I am Hercules!!

So it's something he has shown interest in the past for.I think,unlike the character based DVD/T.V. movies,he would want to write and direct this himself making it something that could be only done after Wonder Woman and Goners.

I don't think the age issue is a factor for the other characters minus Angel because none of them are vampires.In Angel's case,yes it will become a factor eventually but currently it is not.Down the line that will change.In DB's case,he has not created a set time limit like James has.Last fall in an interview promoting Bones he said he was not concerned about the age issue in playing Angel again.If a feature happens before he is too old then great.If it does not then,oh well,he won't lose sleep over it.
Actually Gossi all I meant was that normally Joss interviews make me laugh and realize why I love him, this one made me want to hug him.(I'll fix you a cyber cup of tea but really I wasn't trying to make you grumpy)

And Gossi, like the universe in Firefly/Serenity there are many outposts of fandom that would likely curl your hair. Just because you haven't heard about them doesn't mean they don't exist.(Like the people who sent postcards to get Fox to replace Joss in any future verse projects, because Joss didn't understand the verse anymore)....all I was doing was trying to help answer Cheryl's question regarding why would anyone want to stop a Spike movie.You may not be able to fathom the reasons, but it doesn't mean the reasons don't exist.
If anyone was writing to Fox saying they should never do a Spike movie, I would think that the producers would only take that as the fact that the fandom is still involved and still cares (all letters, pro and con, must be from hard-core fans). So I certainly wouldn't worry that the producers would actually listen to what the letters say!
And as far as James Marsters (or anyone else for that matter aging) I don't think that that is a problem that could not be over-come in ten year's time by Joss Whedon's pen. Marsters may say he doesn't want to play Spike when he can no longer look the part, but in actuality if he gets a great script that has some incredible character developments involving (say) Spike having shanshued and then starting to age, I'm not sure he would turn it down.
Personally I'll be happy with what Joss wants to do, and is able to get done. He can't control all the factors, but I have faith in his love for the worlds and characters he created.
ramses, I'm not saying they don't exist, I've just never heard of 'em in this case. I tend to come across these things sooner or later (my favourite is still the Fireflop forum).

Also, I'm not sayin' ya were making me grumpy. Really, I'm not too bothered that people have opinions expressed here - people are, after all, free to think what they want - I'm just trying to represent the opposing view that 'Gee, maybe this isn't Joss not trying'. I doubt Joss would ever enter into a debate here about this, as it's not his kinda thang historically to get publicly involved in - but I know if I was in the situation where people were saying I'd mislead them, I'd be a little peeved.

Ultimately, a few months ago I saw a bunch of people here asking 'I'd like to know if this is ever likely to happen'. And that's been answered, pretty much. Joss could sugar coat the situation in a positive light, but is that what people really want?

If it happens, it happens. Any new Buffyverse stuff is - in my opinion - fantastic. I do think there's a few people out there who think I'm exclusively a Firefly fan, and that's very wrong - I started with Buffy, it had a huge impact on me, and if there's any way I could promote another Buffyverse thing I really would.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 18:38 ]
I really do think that irregardless of various write in factions the bottomline was that Joss more than likely presented them with a story that furthered Spike within the verse and Fox balked because they believe Spike works one dimensionally. Snarky maybe eeevil Spike versus Spike who had come to terms with his poetry reading human soul and faced the world to fight the evil William had rejected. This is what we got in ATS 5....unfortunately, the suits probably see ATS 5 as a failure.

As for any big screen movie, I see more of the same conflict. Fox will want something that defies everything we saw, and Joss will refuse to give it to them. It's not just the Spike movie kiddies, it's the whole ball of wax.

ETA: Gossi, trust me, I'm the veritable Mary Sue on the various Spike boards, I absolutely don't believe Joss doesn't care about the character or movie. I know all the arguments and I don't buy any of them. From the moment Joss had heroic music playing as Spike escaped the Initiative, I've known that Joss knew what he was doing with the character. I trust that Joss would knock our collective socks off with any further Spike story.(Even those saying Spike's story is done) I don't think Joss is the problem here.

[ edited by ramses 2 on 2006-05-10 18:54 ]

[ edited by ramses 2 on 2006-05-10 19:01 ]
I'd tend to disagree. My opinion on barriers would be purely financial. Normally, people aren't too bothered if a character is one dimensional or not - they care if it sells. I doubt anybody sat in the meetings for Fear Factor going "Hmm, will this paint people in a bad way..."
So much speculation makes my head spin! It just tugs at my deep seated desire for something from the Joss Whedon universe to be resuscitated. We are all suffering from the dearth of good Joss-like entertainment. It is funny, sharp, witty, dramatic, romantic, bloody, goofy, serious, with a fair amount of kick-a** and even a bit of the musical. There is a complexity to Joss' work that is so satisfying and much too rare. The moderators will have for forgive the frustrations of irritable Joss-junkies that are badly in need of a fix.

As far as any of the BtVS, ATS, or Firefly revivals that may or may not occur (and I know Joss would only do them if they were worth doing -- period), I think it is better not to hold too much false hope. The actors and Joss are moving on, as they well should. That doesn't mean that something in the Buffy-Angel-esque genre or the 'verse couldn't come back to us as some point but I would almost rather see it reinvented with different characters and actors. Something different from what we've seen (like Angel was just enough different from Buffy) so that it doesn't betray the stories we've already been told. Anyway, that's my $.02 on the subject...

All that said, we do have WW to look forward to and while it isn't BtVS, ATS, or Firely, it is work from Joss and we can only hope to fall in love with it in the same way. We have to have confidence in the man himself! We just need a bit more patience... (as I wring my hands and get a flutter in my stomach at the anticipation). Well, it may take a bit of practice.

Sorry for the long post. Just had to get that all out there (whew).
I'm not saying they don't exist, I've just never heard of 'em in this case.

Sadly, I have encountered them. To each their own I guess. Personally I'm more interested in creation than destruction.

I wish I could do something more to campaign for a Spike Movie ... or any Buffyverse/Angelverse saga for that matter. Unfortunately my hands are already full with the Whedonverse Project (which I barely have time to keep afloat) let alone all that stuff I have to do when I'm not online.
Ramses has a point though Gossi...maybe FOX would balk at plans Joss may have for Spike if they didn't like the direction the story was going. Ok..I am reaching here, but maybe the suits only want a fist and fangs type of movie and maybe Joss wanted to explore Spike's 'other' side a bit more. Who knows???

The networks are fickle and so are the Hollywood suits...and right now maybe things are just not right for this to happen.
Only reality crap and second and third remakes of movies seem to currently interest them.....go figure...

I will still pray for a miracle and hope that someday down the line this looks good to them, but something just tells me FOX is milking the cash cow and moving on to greener pastures.

Now judging from the way Spike merchandise and comics as well as Buffy/Angel stuff in general would THINK a DVD movie and even more NEW stuff would look good to them...but I've long since given up on trying to figure FOX out.
My reaction to the interview was that there was nothing in the works for any 'verse, except in comics. There's WW and X-men, and that's it for the foreseeble future. (Didn't even mention Goners...)

If anything, Joss seemed really tired in this interview. I hope that's not a long-term burnout.
'Normally'....but does this word define the core steadfast BTVS audience? See, you're thinking like a Fox exec.(I owe you so much more than tea now) Comparing it to Fear Factor...yikes, egad...that's the nub of the problem man! People are writing tomes on these shows...this doesn't happen because people love one dimension, nobody's writing a thesis on anything to do with Fear Factor. People are hooked on Joss's worlds because of something far, far different than what normally makes people slap down cash. They want a good story. Sounds simple, doesn't it?

And let's not forget, everytime Joss does something that people scream is OOC or canon breaking, or hurting the fans, the sales of his products/art keep going up. I may be wrong, but while viewers declined for BTVS/ATS, the franchise in it's entirety was still a powerhouse. Since Spike is a vastly popular character, wouldn't it be an easy assumption that any Spike movie straight to DVD would make the same numbers? Really, seriously why not?

For the past few years we've heard nothing that would suggest Fox understood what BTVS/ATS/Firefly were really about. They're thinking lunch boxes while fans are thinking myth. The problem isn't financial Gossi, it's thinking that financial comes coated in lollipop flavors.
My feeling is that there is more to this than we will ever be aware of- for sure, Spike is incredibly popular and does represent the best bet for a made for TV, direct to DVD flic and studio suits must surely know this, and JM has indicated his interest- which is more than we can say about a film for Willow (AH has stated unless Joss were directly involved she would not have interest), Buffy (SMG is done with the Buffyverse at least for now) or even Faith (the other best bet for a spin-off, since ED probably has beeter recognition stateside than ASH would for Ripper). But there is a good point being made by many here, which is that Spike has already had 2 good runs, and how much more can you push it? my feeling is that any Spike movie will likely have to be set outside the Scoobyverse, with Spike as the focus, and if we are lucky, a cameo from a Scooby. And that saddens me, for I love the entire verse, not just parts of it, if you catch my drift, which I mean in a positive way, not a critical way, ie, I'd prefer to see Willow, Xander and the entire gang rather than just one character. ALl of Joss's work works best as ensemble, whether B, A or FF. But the real sense I get is, it will not happen. Where will the Buffyverse be 5 years from now?
Excellent point Ramses...the actual audience for shows like Buffy and Angel have continously craved depth and meaning, but FOX still thinks we are stuck playing the video game and 'basking' in the pre-teen drek they offer as 'novels'.

Maybe it's just hard for FOX to understand the way these shows and especially the characters, really 'touched' the adult fans.
I realize I'm exceding my posting limit, but Dana I'm terribly curious, why would you assume that a Spike movie would be separate from the Buffyverse? Every single time I've heard about a Spike movie it's in a context of 4 movies, mostly dealing with Buffyverse characters. As in, if you catch my drift, Joss was bringing Spike back into the Slayer realm. Joss himself has spoken of the comics leading into a potential Spike movie. I'm not understanding the assumption that a Spike movie would have been completely isolated.(Just as I don't understand the assumption that any big screen movie wouldn't have Spike in it? Is this wishful thinking, or am I missing something?)
'Normally'....but does this word define the core steadfast BTVS audience? See, you're thinking like a Fox exec.

By 'normally', I actually meant from a business, NON-viewer point of view. Sorry, I should have made that clear. If you are trying to figure out why a project like the Spike thing hasn't gone ahead, you need to put yourselves in the heads of the people financing it. By the way, I would just say that some of the people at 20th Century Fox (who, by the way, might not be the ones blocking this project - the idea may be to sell it to another home video company, like they sold the TV series to WB/UPN) are actually very intelligent people.

Trust me, if you are trying to get a company to invest a large chuck of money in a project, a very large part of the pitch is about - wait for it - money. Are they completely concerned about how many dimensions a character has? Normally, uhm, no. Hence why we have programmes like Fear Factor are on the air. It's really cheap, and it makes a shit load of money. Does anybody really think execs sit around discussing renewing Charmed, really interested in the plans for characters in an emotional capacity? Or is there a look at the figures to see if it's worth while?

I do -- personally -- believe there is money to be made on a Spike project, from a I-haven't-studied-the-figures-but-have-a-hunch perspective, but clearly people don't agree with me. If there was seen to be $50m easy money to be made from this, it would already be on screens.

And I'm worried I'm helping leading this topic off into areas Caroline doesn't want, so I'll shut up now.
I always wondered what people ment when they were talking about scary browncoats. I guess I'm getting their point. Some of the stuff written in this thread is creepy, for the lack of a better word.

[ edited by Tmas on 2006-05-10 20:25 ]
It's, like, a Tim Burton film!
I don't think this is a Browncoat thread. Blackcoat, I think would be more preferred.

And just for my two cents on topic...Thanks for trying, Joss. If it doesn't happen, this fan won't hold you responsible, nor will I be upset that you mentioned it before it was 100% solidified. It did me good to know you were trying to keep your 'verse alive, and I always understood it wasn't a sure thing. So, thanks for letting us play in your world, and I can't wait for the comics so we can play some more!
There's some reactions from the Browncoats here.
I disagree, Gossi. Your characterizing the suits-that-be as purely about the money may be overstating. I assume that the heads of the studios are all human, thus susceptible to the baser human traits such as making decisions based on emotion or intellect.

But no matter how they came about it, I just wish they would have given us the right decision! (i.e. a Spike movie)
Well I spent most of my career on 'money' endeavors, and then a lot more of my career on genre writing to make money so I think I know a little about money making over art...maybe not as much and maybe twice as scary(Excellent post Tmas, I'm sure no one was able to understand the dig) as Gossi but I'll still argue that Joss projects can not be handled like Fear Factor or other Reality based shows(Or even Charmed)....and I'm floored that anyone in the business would argue that all shows should be handled equally. The money is in the viewer, if you want to make money on a show you had better get a handle on how a viewer sees it. If your audience loves the scripts, loves the words, loves the IMPLICATIONS than you had better see the market is primed for depth and not one dimension. Money is money, but you can't make it by waving the same thing in front of people.Fox needs to do something or the epic story they've been given will pass into scratch and sniff territory. That's not genius Gossi, that's what makes the world snicker at marketing types.
You should have searched for a better word,Tmas. I don't think there is anything "creepy" about people who have taken an active interest in a much hoped for project being disappointed when it doesn't come to pass and saying so.
anindoorkitty - I agree, I *am* overstating the money side. I very much know these people are human, and as I said I think there are some very clever people at companies like Fox. That said, businesses are there to make money, and that's the bottom line.

To be clear, I am *NOT* saying Joss projects should be handled like Fear Factor. At all. That's actually the opposite of what I'm saying. Fear Factor, I think, represents everything wrong with the current creative business environment in the US. I've used the examples of Fear Factor and Charmed as shows which often (or indeed, entirely) have no creative merit - but make money, so stay.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 21:02 ]
Berry, didn't mean to offend you in any way. Just noticing somewhat disturbing dark undertones in some of these contributions, is all.
I can't believe people are surprised by this. If the studios wanted to do Buffy, Angel, Spike, or Willow anything, then all these numerous projects would've been greenlighted and we wouldn't have to keep hearing numerous rumors from I' Did anyone see how fast the Aquaman project went from treatment to script to shoot? Thats when a studio actually is interested in a project rather than playing lip service. I can't mourn the Buffyverse now because I said goodbye to it years ago. Ya know, when it was canceled?
eddy - in fairness, the example you give is a TV project, which will likely premiere in the fall. DVD premieres just take forever to get together, I'm informed, as there's never strict timetables. Pretty obviously, in TV form, the Buffyverse is dead.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 21:38 ]
Caroline Sorry to bring this to the thread, I sent you an e-mail a few hours ago and have had no reply. Could you or one of the other Mods e-mail me to reply to my question of what it was about my last post that was against the rules? Thank you.
Tmas, I've read the thread through three times, can you possibly please at least email me what is so dark and disturbing, what undertones you are picking up? I'd ask you to say so publicly but I've a suspicion it would only lead to more same old, same old.

And Gossi, all I was saying is that I hope Joss stays his course, I don't want anything that simply pleases the Suits. And I'm pretty darn sure that most fans want Joss to do a movie/story that follows his vision and not the marketing assumptions of the Fox execs.

[ edited by ramses 2 on 2006-05-10 22:14 ]
Exoticmushroom, that was the last post you make here. We don't exist to serve you at your beck and call.

Gossi, ramses 2, I'm not exactly sure what the argument is about, but at least it sounds civil to me. Thank you for that.

Everybody take a lovely deep breath.
I don't think there's an argument... although I'm not entirely sure - some of the posts in this topic have been a little bit subtexty and left me scratching my head. I will clarify something from above again - I don't work in entertainment biz, nor do I work in marketing. I work in IT for a company that sells food.

In terms of Spike project - I agree, ramses - this is the kind of project which should have the minimal input of mass market focus, as Spike tends to work best as a character when he does things you don't want/expect him to do (in my opinion). Ultimately, if a compelling story doesn't exist, it shouldn't be made anyway, otherwise you end up with 'Enterprise'.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-10 22:41 ]
Pat me down Gossi, no subtext here:)

I actually think we're on the exact same page, Joss good....any shade of Joss is good.(As long as it's Joss and not what Fox deems is Joss.)If Joss said there was something further to do with Spike then I will believe him. Personally, I get that, I've always thought there was more to Spike than ATS 5. It's a thing, but I really do think Spike needs to be shown as 'not love's bitch'. I see a whole big thing where Spike is hero without any reason what so ever.

The point is, I really don't care who or how Joss continues the Verse but I want it, I just frankly see it in Spike's shape and form. Of course I also see a whole movie on why Xander was alone in Africa but that's just me. I'm terribly postive on Joss's take on his Verse, I'm just not so positive on Fox's take.
I really think that Joss has enough savy about the suits to pitch a Spike movie in such a way that they will go for it, if they are inclined to go for something in the Buffyverse. What I mean is, I think Gossi is right that it all comes down to money for the suits and that pitching a touching, multi-dimensional,heavily subtexted story of self-discovery by a vampire with the soul of a poet would not probably not sell to a money man. However, I don't think that Joss would dream of trying to sell that to anyone, even if that is what he ultimately makes...and he won't have to lie about it because you know that the fight scenes and the sex will be there in spades and that is what Joss would pitch and they would buy...IF they think the RISK is worth the potential REWARDS. So far apparently they don't. I hope something changes that soon.
Mmmm...deep breath. Lovely. :-) :-)

Movies are expensive, yo -- remember that Serenity 2-hour thing? That was $40M, and there was even an article in the Los Angeles Times about how amazingly cheap that was. Sure, there were special effects in Serenity that wouldn't apply to a Spike budget, but it wasn't like it was $39M worth of special effects and everything else was $1M. Based only on what I've read about lots of independent movies and such, a movie can cost as low as $1M USD, but when you hire actors who are more well-known, and you put more high-quality look into the final product, the price goes up. Even if the Buffy/Angel TV eps were "just" $1M each, then a 2-hour movie is a minimum $2M-$2.5M, just by the math. Add the "movie look," plus the higher payment to everyone involved (on TV, people sign long-term contracts that lock in "low" rates based on the idea that they will be getting paid weekly for a long time, but in movies, you have to get all your payment for just one performance -- actors and writers and directors aren't paid hourly wages, y'know!), and the price just goes up more. While we are not talking Tom Cruise money, I'm sure the price for a Spike/Buffyverse film, no matter where it will be seen (DVD, theatres, etc.), has to be upwards of $5M ('cause, y'know, it won't just be JM and sock puppets performing live-on-stage, there's other, y'know, Buffyverse actors we'd want to see, plus things like props and sets and lunches for the cast and crew to eat while they're filming). And I'm still being conservative. Again, this is just my wild-a** guess of cost.

The biggest thing is that I'm sure that Joss really doesn't own the rights at all -- if I recall correctly, way back when, Fox called him and said they wanted to make a series about that little movie he wrote that they owned, and they were just offering him the chance to write it as a courtesy. Does anyone honestly think that if Joss owned the rights free and clear, he wouldn't have held a bake sale by now to raise the $X million USD it takes to make a Spike movie? Or Serenity sequel? Or [fill in the blank]?

Joss is a writer/director/producer with passion and creativity. He tries to keep all his creations alive -- we've seen that over and over through his actions to extend Buffy's run (he moved it to a different network, ffs!), to try to get Angel renewed one more time, and certainly in the form of the BDM. Not to mention, he showed up at the Saturns to pick up an award on behalf of Summer Glau -- does that not show mad love for his many 'Verses? What he doesn't have is infinite power, or infinite money, or infinite energy. Once he's heard "no" a few dozen times, Joss is smart enough to know it's time to look at the things he's still getting "yes" on -- WW, Goners, comics, etc. -- and put the other things on hold for a while. Can't blame the guy for not being able to perform mind control on TPTB, y'know? And that he respects us fans enough to give us an honest answer, instead of just blowing smoke ("Oh, um, yeah! We're really close on a Spike movie! Yes, that's going great!"), well, I think that *rocks*. :-)
Once again, Joss at his finest. Wonderful interview. Thank you for the post, derf.
Well said, billz.
Goodbye, Buffyverse, goodbye, Spike movie. Thank God we have fanfiction.

I can understand folks getting tired of wishing and hoping, but I'm not ready to give it up just yet. Everyone talking about the 'verse in the past tense is sad (though technically accurate), and brings to mind the passing of an era. Of some kind. That was really cool.

I just can't imagine that we'll never see any of those beloved characters off the page ever again. I mean, life goes on and all... but you have to celebrate the special, the exemplary.

And revisit it from time to time. ;)
Well, I'm quite sure I'm totally wrong. I just seem to remember(maybe erroneously?)that once upon a time Joss wanted to explore Spike's humanity, maybe in season 7, but that the PTB nixed the storyline he brought to them. Then we got the edict that Spike's appearance couldn't change no matter what. Of course we all know about Fox's rules that Spike should never be shown past evil and mad in the books.

So perhaps Joss didn't go to the Suits and ask for anything like "the soulful poetic vampire realizes he must just fight the fight no matter what." But that only lends itself to my point....what exactly would Fox want as a script? What exactly do they see as moneymaking? Raucous Spike wipes his nose, beds a blonde, kills a few whatever, and thinks fondly of Drusilla and the bad old days? Seriously? And the suits would think this was a money making endeavor?

Really, truly, I wasn't suggesting that Spike shouldn't be recognizable. Just maybe something recognizable from season 7 and ATS 5. Now maybe Fox thinks that's unworkable moneywise. But as fans shouldn't we see Spike as the proverbial canary? If he is unchangable and static, then how viable is the Verse?

IMO, if you're doing a Spike movie, you had better move the character forward. Something I'm downright sure Joss was doing. See I think Joss is every bit the fan of Spike as Spike fans are.I can't imagine the creator of BTVS/ATS and Firefly asking for a movie about a blonde vamp who may or may not be bad.(But hey, funny) If there's a glitch, if Joss has tried many ways to sell this story, I have to imagine that it's a changed Spike he can't sell. And that should alarm us all.
See I think Joss is every bit the fan of Spike as Spike fans are.

I completely agree with that statement, though I know a lot of folks don't.

I also agree that Joss will only want to move the character forward, and if for whatever reason the execs don't want that, then I think I don't want a Spike movie. I don't want to just see Spike again for the sake of seeing him. I think it would leave a bitter taste in my mouth to see Spike regress or stay the same, because what's the point of a story if the main character doesn't have some kind of arc? I'd rather have no Spike at all, and I really don't want Joss compromising his plans for Spike just for the sake of making a product.
This news makes me so sad. I thought there were so many more wonderful Buffyverse stories to be told, particularly those involving Spike. I have no interest in the comics--to me what made the verse so spectacular was the experience of seeing and hearing the perfect actors say the perfect words. Two dimensional drawings can't capture that magic.
So true Ramses...I mean come on...the whole story we saw was about GROWTH...CHANGE...that is why I find it so hard to understand why anyone would want to see 'regressed' Spike.

Sure...rowdy Spike is fun and sexy Spike is always cool...but he can still be those things and not step backwards.

Again...who knows what FOX thinks or wants if they are they are the only hold up. Maybe FOX is just not interested in revisiting the Verse in ANY form right now. That would blow my mind if true, but like I said before...I have yet to figure out what makes FOX tick...or all of Hollyweird for that matter???

In a world where Paris Hilton can get her own show...or hell Brittany Spears...I have to question the wisdom of those folks running things.
Here here, kathylovesspike.

Ultimately, all we know is that the pitch has been made to the powers that be, and nothing has happened about it. Sucks to be us. I'm sure the money saved will be used to film Paris Hilton eating spiders whilst covered in horse poo -- which will probably get 7 million viewers.

Sometimes I feel disconnected from pop culture.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-11 01:20 ]
If the spiders were eating Paris, I might watch.

And thanks for the original post, derf.
I totally agree, Kathy. We all know how rare it is to find anything being offered for the screen with the same Buffyverse quality we all fell in love with. I'm just so frustrated that we'll never see any of our favorite characters again. And yes, I know there's still the comics, but that's just not the same:(
Strangely though Gossi....I fear someone would actually watch Paris in just such a scenario. Sad isn't it? No offense Syren...I too might watch if the spiders were poisonous and ate her very slowly...gahhh...maybe not.

TBTB pass over the chance to give the Veiwers something intelligent, and hell, even entertaining in favor of reality trash.
Just makes it all the more depressing. A Spike movie could actually generate revenue for FOX....but I guess it wouldn't be as 'crass ' as Paris can be...

[ edited by kathylovesspike on 2006-05-11 01:32 ]
I know some fans think Joss considers Spike the red-headed stepchild of the Verse but I can't believe that because he writes so beautifully for the character.

One of the reasons Spike is such a complex, multifaceted character is because each writer seemed to have their very own vision of Spike and was allowed to run with it. But Joss was the one who always seemed to get the mix of snark, romanticism, vulnerability, impulsiveness (and when he was unsouled) evilness just right.
I don't believe any portion of the fan base has the ability to influence Fox or Joss. Anti campaigns are always going to be viewed as done in poor taste. I can remember David Fury discussing an anti B/A campaign that was going on when he appeared at a con. He pretty much said that the writers found them tiring and a waste of time. The writers will do what they want to do and no amount of griping or anti postcards will see that change. I do agree with you that it's unfortunate for fans to carry on this way. I'm not sure I want to actually "see" this first hand, further than what I've already been subjected to with the anti Buffy boards but I'm willing to take a look because you have asked me to.
So it's o.k. with me if you email me a link.

When I asked who was putting the screws to the Spike project, what I meant was WHO has Joss pitched it to? I think that question has been answered a few times. Apparenly everyone believes it is Fox.

I'd have to agree with the general feeling that Joss has done everything he can up to this point. He's put it out there and is waiting for a go ahead from the PTB.
I'd also have to agree with Reddy in that Joss writes ALL the characters better. Joining in the Joss love.

Gossi....I agree that a Feature film starring SMG as Buffy is likely to happen in the future and thank you for the quotes BuffyFanatic. I remembered the DB and SMG bit regarding a feature but hadn't heard the part from Craft.
cheryl, I do know that Spike was supposed to be a one-off, until the fans started screaming they wanted more.

Irrelevant to this thread but pertinent to the fan thing: I know recently General Hospital was going to have a child be "the murderer" in a certain storyline. Fan outcry was so extreme that they changed it at the last minute, and the writing suffered for it. You could tell they just quickly jammed in whatever they could to make the kid NOT the killer.

I'm sure the writers do find it tiresome... I would, were I in their position. My point is, that sometimes, fans can and do make a difference.
ramses 2, though I kinda feel weird answering to you about my feelings privately, I'm still up for it. Should I somehow know how to contact you? I mean, I don't see any email address around?
Would there be anyone who, like me, be a little relieved if no more Jossverse projects happen? By now things have settled, and I've come to accept much. I've come to terms with things the way they are. I have serious fears that things might happen to disturb my equanimity. The Jossverse shows are the only TV shows that actually left me emotionally exhausted.

I would love to see the talents involved go on to other projects. In the present case I think that JM, JW, nnd TM might do more great things.

Also is anyone else confused about what happened in this thread? It's all been a pretty reasonable discussion. Were banned posts deleated? Dark things? Not second guessing the mods, I just don't want to miss any darkness.:)
I know I wouldn't be relieved if no more of the Buffyverse was ever revisted. I'd like to have all four of those straight to dvd movies AND the Feature.

I think in the case of Joss, although I believe he listens to fan input, he isn't swayed by our opinion one way or the other. I guess I could be wrong but if he were to ever get wrapped up in fan reaction....Tara dying comes to mind and the amount of fans that were strongly opposed to that happening.
I think he said something about needing to do it for the sake of the story. Like I said...I could be wrong, this is just the impression I get from listening to his various comments.
Cheryl said:
Anti campaigns are always going to be viewed as done in poor taste.

Cheryl, I am so glad to see you say this. And I totally agree with you that anti campaigns are perceived by not only the writers, but I might add, the entire fanbase, as worthless wastes of a person's time and resources and makes them look like stupid wankers. And as Willowy said, fans can and do make a difference, but I believe it has to be a positive message to have any chance of success. Fear, hate and jealousy can never be perceived as positive.
Exactly anindoorkitty, Anti is non productive on every level.
Still not sure about the campaign efforts actually making much difference in the long run but the fan efforts aren't all in vain. Saving Angel comes to mind. That was an awesome effort.
but the fan efforts aren't all in vain. Saving Angel comes to mind. That was an awesome effort.

Which proved to be completely in vain I would say...
I guess it would depend on your perspective. We wern't able to save Angel but we sure did show an enormous amount of support for Joss, David and James. I think people really noticed and appreciated that effort.

After everything Joss has given us, it was a nice tribute to how much we care for his creation. Call me crazy but I think that had an impact on the a good way.
Fear, hate and jealousy can never be perceived as positive. - anindoorkitty.

I do agree with your statement here. But the point I was trying to make with the GH comment was that there was an incredibly negative fan reaction to the outcome of the story, and that caused the writers to change it. Even though it fucked with the continuity big time, and the flow of the events was seriously damaged, they still changed it because of the overwhelming negativity of the fans.

I do not think that random negative protests are as influential as positive feedback is. My whole take on this is that it can go either way, depending on the numbers.

I personally am not invested in this either way. Am I disappointed with the seeming possibility of no more bverse? Oh yeah. Am I going to wear a placard and yell from rooftops? No.

Maybe it is an unpopular and naive way to think, but I just trust in Joss. I simply cannot fathom, that as much as I recognize and crave his genius, and that it is already out there in the world, that there will be no more. Ever? Can there never be something as good out there? I just don't see it.

I'm sure the wait, however long, will be worth it.
Willowy, you sound like just because the buffyverse may be over that Joss will do no more magic. What about Wonder Woman? What about Goners? What about all the other genius stories in his head that we will get to see in the future? The Buffyverse had a good long run. I'm satisfied.
I don't know, people. In all honesty, I kinda' see the WB closing its doors this September as a kiss of death to any future Spike television movie. I do pray I'm wrong in this. Seeing that the soon to be founded CW network will be manned by the best minds of the former UPN, perhaps that little note will stick. I'm always try to be a "glass half-full" person so I'm crossing fingers in hope.

And, of course, any announcement that Joss is considering another television series will be a cause for me to break dance to the point of third-degree carpet burns. So miss my 'Joss TV'.
I wrote a story called The Misery Effect, and interviewed a few writers for it. It's about the sort of batshit crazy fans, like the one Kathy Bates played in Misery. It's a small sampling of fandom, but batshit crazy tends to also be VERY LOUD and make BIG DEMANDS or they WONT WATCH ANYMORE. Like I said, that's a small sample, and I don't put the regular everyday criticism in that category.

Jane Espenson said something interesting, not about the crazies, but about discontentment in general, which was that there's almost always an advocate in the writer's room.

So if there's a lot of people upset about a character's development or the way a storyline turns, there's likely a writer or two who are voicing that same opinion, right there in the room. I always had a tendency to lump the writers together in one gelatinous pulsating brain, but they're of course individuals. The final veto comes from the showrunner, of course, but the point she was making is that even if you don't think you've been heard, someone like Jane, Doug, or DeKnight could have been campaigning hard against/for that idea that didn't work out in the end.

WRT campaigns, be they negative or positive, I am often puzzled by them of they're done without any direct knowledge of the creator's needs. I'm not talking about interviews, either. If Joss says, "make some noise" at 8am on a talk show with a crying baby on his hip, I'm not so much going to take it as a battle cry. I would seek clarification from tired daddy Joss. If he comes here with hat in hand and says, "I need your help..." well, it's campaign time.

But without the actual non-media-careful-to-not burn-bridges conversation, I'm thinking that campaigns can't be built. It takes more than "I want," one has to think through how that want can happen. If there's no one to write it, then no amount of crying for backing is going to make a difference.
Wow this thread got big fast. Well, for what it's worth I'm not entirely beyond hoping, just as I was never really convinced it would happen. I'm perplexed (as always) at the criticism leveled at Joss over this. He's nice enough to keep us informed and be honest about it. He's always said it very well might not happen but that he was trying. It was clear he wouldn't be writing the actual script or directing it but approached Tim. We all know how hard it is to get something like this off the ground. He tried the networks (who are now being silent) and the idea of straight to DVD was looked into and it's very possible that just wasn't feasible.

And then there is the whole CW thing. I mean the WB and UPN were the Buffy and Angel channels, holding the biggest chance of being interested, and now they're dissappearing into a new channel. Everything is being weighed and reviewed and lord knows what seats of power are switching around. And obviously, behind the scenes that's been going on for quite a while because these decisions aren't made overnight. So that probably didn't help.

I've seen people get surprisingly nasty towards Joss on other spots on the web. Almost like they're eager to hate him and toss assumptions around however they can put the most negative spin on it. Very strange. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for Joss to just say "I don't think that's going to happen" and be done with it. He was trying. He kept us up to date. Chances were slim. It probably won't happen. That's the whole story.

And the strangest argument I've seen is the idea he 'strung us along' to 'promote Serenity'. I can't even begin to fathom the deluded brain twists necessary to see how talk of a TV movie about a character from the Buffyverse would in any conceivable way make promotion for 'Serenity'. If you liked Spike but hated FF, it wouldn't make you go. If you hated Spike but loved FF you were already going. If you hated, or never heard of either, it wouldn't make you go. There are no other options.

It's ridiculous. There's just sides to fandom that are really disturbing and odd. Joss, thanks for trying. Looking forward to the Buffy comic. (Hope it's a good artist!)
Interesting how this thread has gone to all sorts of places.

As far as the point of: "Does anything fans do matter to 'the suits'?"

I know this: at San Diego Con I believe it was last year that IN PERSON Joss Whedon said that the studios DO pay attention to what's happening on the web and that it CAN have an influence.

Similar situation I'd read happened to the "Superman" movie that was going to happen with JJ Abrams- Warner Bros loved the script, but then when fans got a copy and expressed how much they hated it--- well, the director and the screenwriter were off the project, and they brought in Bryan Singer and crew instead. (Granted, there may have been more that we're not privvy to--- but from the reports given at the time, Warners seemed REALLY 'gung ho' about the Abrams script and only scrapped it when the fan base went up in arms over it)

Not to get off subject, just wanted to give another example of fan reaction having an impact on Hollywood there-

Still.... even if fans reactions and organized events aren't guaranteed to change things... straight from Mr.Whedon's mouth from what he's said at the convention, at the same time--- it isn't being totally ignored by Hollywood and 'the suits' either. So... maybe if there's enough noise long enough for a Spike movie, maybe here can be hope!

Even if it's not a guarantee, to me, it seems nice to hear that even a CHANCE is better than no chance of it happening at all.

[ edited by harvey chin on 2006-05-11 08:26 ]
Thanks for that perspective and the info from the con, harvey. Does anybody here have any idea what might possibly be done to "encourage" TPTB to get moving on our Spike movie(s)? (Without, of course, irritating them to the point where they'd take the opposite tack just out of spite?)

When we did the save Angel campaign about all I could do was the bit with the postcards (sent 'em pretty ones of Hawaiian sunsets and leaping dolphins, hoping that would soften 'em up). Is there anything going like this now? Any concerted effort of any kind? I feel kinda out of the loop here in the middle of the Pacific, and haven't seen much of anything on any of the sites I visit. Perhaps I should get of my lazy bum and "Google 'til I just can't Google no more!"

Any ideas anyone?
Well short of saying 'Hey, here's $5 million I happen to have kicking around, use it as you will' I guess we just keep buying Buffyverse stuff (oh, the hardship ;) and showing the pointy hairs that there's a market there.

Much as i'd love to see further Bverse adventures though I guess there comes a point where you just have to step back a bit (still keeping the faith) and leave it in the lap of TPTB.

Anyway, we've to-ed and fro-ed on this thread for ages while no-one has mentioned what must be on all our minds, the crux of the matter, the real point of it all and a possibility which seems to have just slid by without comment, which is to say: Can gossi get us free food from where he works ? ;-)
There's no such thing as a free lunch. Although I can get very very cheap food. Oh yes. ;-)
Jane? Is that really you?
Well, it ain't Homer Simpson -- or is it? ;-)
Why you little!
OK kids, take it to a room :) Other than here.

EdDantes made a good point.I also noticed an anger towards Joss. May I ask why? Quite confusing really.

Anyway, back to subject, I've found this topic very interesting. Again, Caroline, thank you for this room.
I don't think anger towards Joss can be lumped into the same pile as Anti campaigners. I definitely think there's a huge difference between 'disgruntled' fans and the 'campaigning' kind. You can take a spin around the web and find many sites devoted to characters and I can almost guarantee there's a huge amount of Joss/ME bashing to be found. And if you look closely, those fans, every one of them in various fan flavors has a deeply held belief that Joss hated/disliked/ignored their beloved character.

Is this a bad thing? Weeeeeeeell, while frustrating at times I actually think it highlights the power of these shows. Characters were constructed to advance a storyline, and yet they were so well fashioned people loved them so much that they started to feel protective of them and their storyline. They feel they own the character just as much, if not more than Joss himself. They see the character as having a separate existence, larger than the story itself. There is always a sense on these boards that if (insert your snarky name for Joss here) had only done something else/more/less with your beloved character than the show/universe would still be around. But they've been discussing the story for years, every aspect of it. They fight, they debate, they laugh and cry(or maybe pout) but in the end it's a real examination of the story we got.

Ladies and gentlemen, IMO that's the highest compliment that could be paid to a writer. These people are fans. Annoying perhaps to fans of Joss and the writers, but I would bet ME would assure you that they loved these fans.(Even it they took pokes at them from time to time:))

The other stuff, the anti Joss/anti characters campaigns are never put on public boards. You just are not going to see the planning of said 'hijinks'.(Unless you're privy to leaks)But to say they're without teeth? If you go back to those same character boards, you'll find a lot of people absolutely convinced that postcards sent to advertisers and Fox, magazines that dared to feature unfavored characters or couples
were very effective, certainly these antis themselves feel that they're effective.(You should have seen the very happy 'Spike fans' that scuttled the SFX Spike movie thread and we're happily quoted as saying they loved Spike but quite honestly didn't want a Spike movie at all....gotta say, seemed pretty darn effective to me)

I guess my beef is that the grumblers at least are working within Joss's sandbox. Someone hating Joss because Buffy beat the snuff out of Spike? Or poking Xander's eye out? Or making Willow gay? Or having Angel tell Cordi he thinks about what could have been between them every day? All these gripes are story related. I can't find anything wrong with them.(I don't agree, but I do find them intensely valuable)

The campaigning Antis however, want the playground surrounded by a nice big Fox bumper that keeps Joss either within dictated confines, or put into permanent time out. That's hugely different. I don't take issue with people grumbling at Joss and his verse, I do take issue with people that discuss how Fox should step up to the plate and take the Verse from him.
EdDantes made a good point.I also noticed an anger towards Joss. May I ask why? Quite confusing really.

I'll just toss in my opinion, from what I've observed in the Spike and particularly Spuffy fandoms...YMMV, obviously.

Many folks seem to feel upset at Joss for leaving BtVS in Marti Noxon's hands, because they feel her view of the show demeaned or degraded Spike and James. They feel Joss wanted to play with his shiny new toy, Firefly, and didn't care about Buffy and Angel anymore. So I guess that leads into the feeling that Joss only brought up the possibility of a Spike movie to create buzz for Serenity, which never really made sense to me.

And also I think people blame Joss for getting their hopes up, but like I said before, I'd much rather he show interest in keeping it alive than not say anything about it. I know everyone differs, and some folks would have rather he didn't mention it until all contracts were signed and they were filming, I guess. I think the big difference for me was, I didn't let my hopes get too high. I kind of figured it for a long shot from the start, so I wasn't that let down when I saw it was just that.

I think it must be hard for a multi-talented, all irons in the fire type guy like Joss, because at all times SOMEone will be unhappy that you aren't paying 100% of your attention to their favorite thing that you created. But then you can't keep everyone happy, no matter what you do. I have a distinct feeling that some of the same folks who are angry at Joss for not 'trying hard enough', would probably complain about the finished product too if it ever got made, because some folks just have it set in their head that Joss is a baddy, and they'll find some way to demonize him.

But again, that's just the impression I've got from various places around the web.
Rogue I think you can say that about all the various forums, not just spike forums. Take a spin to other character/ship boards, trust me, to a one, you'll get the Firefly is Joss's new toy argument.(I don't really understand it either, but people should realize it's not just a Spike thing)

I also want to argue that what's left of 'spuffies' tend to be people who are very pro Joss, people writing essays about the entire series and finding that they loved every bit of it. I know on CDS and BC&S, you'll find spuffies and others deeply involved in discussing both ATS and Firefly/Serenity as well.(Discussing compelling threads that run through each series) From where I sit, existing 'spuffies' were the boring lot who droned on about Campbell, metaphor and symbolism.(And I'm a proud card carrying member:))We tend to see Spike as part of Buffy's story and we tend to love Buffy. We also tend to see elements of BTVS in ATS and Firefly. So please, spuffies are not Joss haters par excellence....some Spike fans...yes. Some old spuffies? Yes. Some b/aers? Oh yeah. Cordelia fans? You sooo need a flack jacket. And don't go anywhere near a Xander board with a Joss positive comment.

And the campaign to make Fox aware that people wanted him out of the Verse? That absolutely was another ship.
I tend to agree with Ramses. The fact that so many people feel so much passion for the things that Joss created speaks volumes.

Fan hot buttons? Whedon, Spike, Gellar/Buffy, SERENITY.. Go figure. I would say that means you made an impact.
*presses the Whedon fan button*


*watches fan explode*

Uh! :o)
I kinda' see the WB closing its doors this September as a kiss of death to any future Spike television movie.

I think that a Spike TV movie on the WB stopped being in the cards a long time ago. The WB Execs paid lip service to the idea, but when asked about it Joss said they hadn't contacted him. Later on, Joss talked about the Spike Movie (plus other character movies) in terms of a straight-to-dvd production. This was well before anyone knew about the CW network.
Ramses, when you mention the Spike/Spuffy fans and keeping the verse alive through discussion don't forget TEA AT THE FORD (which may have one of the best ATS/BTVS after NFA fan fics ever---THREE DEEP--finish that and make it a big screen movie and we'd ALL be happy: Spuffy, Spangel, Buffy/Angel, Spike/Illyria, Wesley, Faith, Xander, Gunn, willow etc. etc. etc.)

and also there's SOULFUL SPIKE, which is another great site.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-05-11 19:36 ]
Ramses- I didn't mean to imply all Spuffies or Spike fans were Joss haters(I'm both of those and I don't hate Joss), and I'm sure that other characters fans also have their issues. But since we were talking about the Spike movie, and in particular Spike fans anger with Joss, that's what I was addressing. And also since those are the only fandoms I really have experience with...I don't feel comfortable speaking about other fandoms.

Obviously I don't frequent all boards, or even many...pretty much W is the only 'forum' I go to anymore. But I remember in my forum days, and currently places like LJ, folks can exhibit some pretty negative vibes toward Joss that always seemed a little irrational and ugly to me.
Rogue, LMAO, aren't you the one who was going to "throw fruit" at SMG and needed to be reported? (there was much hilarity over this after the shock wore off) You, of all people, should know how you can't take everything literally that is said at these boards.

That said, I know it burns when you read less than favorable comments about your favorite actor, writer or character.
Ah yes, the infamous fruit-throwing debacle of 2004...good times, good times...
I think some of you are confusing anger at Joss with not loving everything Joss writes or does.
good times, good times...

Indeed. I had the honor of (briefly) being classified as a "former SMG hater" by a poster at one prominent board, which amused me (given my allegiances), but also kinda upset me.

I love the passion. I completely agree with ramses2 that the strong feelings show the power of the 'verse. But let's always keep a sense of perspective. At the end of the day, there's never a reason to be rude or cruel to other fans, and even less so to those who actually created the worlds and characters that we love to inhabit. I've seen and read comments and attacks in various places that make my hair curl - not an easy thing for my hair to do, - and I don't believe there's any justification for that kind of behavior, whether by fans or "antis" or whatever you want to call them. We are all people, people.
To Sangchaud; you're welcome on the bit from San Diego Con--- to those of who haven't seen Mr.Whedon talk live in person--- missing out. He's definitely a one-man show unto himself! (worth the admission price alone to the San Diego Cons when he's there!)

Sangchaud put out a great question there:
IS there a solid organized fan effort for a Spike movie? If there isn't a focused plan (who to write to, what to write, how that letter should be written--- and in what time frame)....

... Then isn't this mostly just spinning wheels?
While the studios may be influenced (we know that they are; to what degree, we don't) by sites--- organized plans may have a lot more power to make something happen. just a thought. via their yahoo group had an organized campaign, but it seems to have fizzled. If I had the time and energy, I'd pick up the mantle myself as I was once very involved in the Spike movie campaign. Alas, I'm simply not able to take it on, but would happily assist anyone willing to take the lead.
We are all people, people.

Absolutely, I just want to highlight that comment.

There was a point last year where I'd become overly associated in certain online circles with Serenity, to the point where occasionally I'd see things written about me or my friends online and I'd be absolutely livid. A classic example is somebody who last year decided they needed to alert people on a forum that, despite claims I had made here that I don't work for Universal, that I actually do work for Universal.

There was problem with that. It was completely false; never worked for 'versal, never been paid by 'versal. I traveled around UK and waved movie at people because *I* wanted to, *I* wanted people to see it. Which leads to some idiot - which turned into idiots - online running around trying to personally discredit me for... some reason. I'm not sure why.

And, you know, I saw that and I was *pissed off*. I think I had to be wheeled away from the keyboard (which is hilarous when you're in a chair without wheels).

A very wise person told me you have to try to back away from the keyboard, breathe, and try to remember not everybody is as informed as they think they are -- but that's easier said than done.

I don't mind when people have opinions about things, because that's what life is about - but when it turns into actual hate, and somebody doesn't actually know the full story but are piling on the bad words it does tend to annoy me a little bit. Because I know Joss, Jewel, Nathan, Adam, Alyson etc tend to lurk online to varing degrees, and I literally can't imagine what some of the comments must do to those folks.

I'm sure they've learned to deal with it - it's the nature of the game. I just hope they have wheely chairs.
I just hope they have wheely chairs.

I certainly rely on mine! (no worries, gossi, dude, I totally get what you're saying -- and, in fact, I think I might start saying "wheely chair" instead of "wheelchair" -- much more fun-sounding!) :-)
At the end of the day, it's a tv franchise with made up characters.

Saying that I've been parading around London today in my Whedonesque t-shirt. Always fun.

However. Two things.

1) Dredging up the old fan battles is never fun and terribly tedious. That and I know where the bodies are buried.

2) A re-invigorated fan campaign targetting 20th Century Fox about a Spike movie would be a very good idea.
I'd happily get behind a reinvigorated campaign if (and it's a big if) Joss and James both expressed their continued interest in the project. I know that an awful lot of hard work went into the Spike Movie campaign and a renewed campaign would mean a lot more hard work. It's only fair to ask that (or even to allow that to happen) if the creator and the star are enthuiastic.

After a while sometimes it is best to accept that the moment has passed and to focus on the future.

Or in my case to focus on the Smallville finale ;)
Just one slightly off topic question.
If WW explodes at the end - per gossi's wish way earlier in the thread - wouldn't that leave a bit of a mess?
Then would we get WW II - the Reconstitution?
What about an acquirement of the domain and starting a campaign based around the savingangel efforts (encouraging fans to send letters to Fox, CW, and HBO, collecting enough money for an advertisement in a trade magazine)? Or trying to restart efforts at
Okay! Getting some ideas here about showing support for the Spike movie!! Yay, us!!

But before I make a few more comments/questions, I just have to ask: Where are the bodies buried, Simon???? (Only joking!) And you've been "parading around London"? You're so lucky. I miss London so very much. Sorry. Getting way OT.

Anyway, back to the Spike movie stuff. A "re-invigorated fan campaign targetting 20th Century Fox about a Spike movie" would be something I could really get behind. I couldn't really spearhead it because I have very limited computer abilities (to say nothing of being totally disorganized), but I'll volunteer here and now to sending postcards, licking stamps (stamps, people, stamps!), all that sort of grunt work. (Why is everything I'm typing now sounding doubled in the entendre region?). paxomen, your ideas sound good. Thank you! Anyone? Any comments/ideas on any of this? Or am I the only one left on this thread? Hello? :)
Stamps! STAMPS!

Sorry, the stamp jokes amused me.

I'd suggest interested parties go to and join the Yahoo! mailing list, and get interest going again.
Thanks, gossi! It's way past my bedtime here and now (see?!), but I shall do that very thing tomorrow! Hope others see this and do the same.

Thanks again. Aloha y'all
I'm gonna email people, and see what they think? I will post back in this forum in next few days hopefully after responses

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