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"grr... argh"
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March 28 2003

David Fury on the cut scenes from 'Lies My Parents Told Me'. A confession concerning what Giles did in season 5 wouldn't interest people?

"The rumors are true. (Not about Goddard and Michelle. ABout Giles and Ben.) It was cut mainly because the first cut of the show was TWELVE MINUTES LONG! But, also because some people didn't think anyone would be interested in Giles confessing to killing Ben. Curious what you guys think."

What? TONS of fans want that thing exposed. Bloody hell. They bring back Xander's betrayal from S2, but you know, who the fuck would be interested in Giles, "the old guy". Because it's all about Spike - we had to have another scene with him and his mummy-issues, because we really need to get all of that spelled out to us, as we didn't get it the first 200 times. No really.

Dear ME, although a large part of your viewers watch this show for Spike, another large part doesn't and wishes he'd run into a bloody big sharp chunk of wood. 12 minutes of Giles expositioning sounds like heaven to me and I'd rather watch that than two seasons of the Spike and Buffy soap.

(I think I need to chill a bit)
Nah, you tell 'em prolific. There's a lot of fans out there who would agree with you.

I guess we'll have to wait till a copy of the shooting script comes available to see what was said and who knows it may even be an extra on the season 7 DVD.
I am going to assume that Prolific is not a Spuffy then. I too would have loved to have seen Giles confess to Buffy about Ben. I mean they couldn't air a 90 minute Buffy. It's not like there is anything else on UPN. I am kidding about the 90 minute Buffy or may be not but it is true that there's nothing else on UPN.
Hmmm... major Spike fan here (and not for the "soap opera" aspect of the story), NOT a Spuffy anymore (I'm so over the character of Buffy it's not funny), but somehow I still manage to like the other characters and wish that they could have left that scene with Giles in.

Just because some fans (MANY fans) like one character over another does not mean we don't want to see development and characterization of the others on the show that we ALSO happen to love.

What galls me is Fury. I've NEVER been a fan of his, particularly when he speaks. Mutant Enema really should just never have let some of their writers out of their damn cages. Public speaking is not Fury's forte.

But at least Noxon is bloody well gone.
Heh. I like Spike, in small doses. He's a side character for me and I appreciate that he's a main character for others and does well in the ratings, but he does fuck all for me and I'd really much rather see the show revolve around the original Scoobies, even if it revolved around them falling apart. That would just be so much more interesting - to see how friendhips form, build and ultimately change forever. Friendship's higher than love, Jean Cocteau said and he may be French but I think he got it right.

Anyway, it's too late now, it's obvious everybody (Joss, the writers, most of the actors) wants to move on and they're bringing in tons of new characters mostly to create more possibilities for spin offs. Which would be great if what they want to move on to (Firefly) had been given a chance. This way we end up with Nothing.

(eta: I'm definitely not a Spuffy, not a 'shipper of any kind really, not anymore. Got into it for a while (bit of Guffy, bit of Ganya) but I find it stifling and it took away from my enjoyment of the show. 'Ships are boring once they're consumated anyway - whereas I think friendships have a more interesting dynamic. )

As for Marti's departure. I never did get into the whole Blame Marti for everything vibe. Until quite recently. Something in recent interviews with her and with Joss has changed my mind a little and I now think the final two seasons did suffer from too much of her and too little of Joss's involvement..
Hey Prolific, what changed your mind in recent interviews?

Also, I doubt the choice to cut this scene went like 'Our audience like Spike. Hate boring Giles. Give more Spike'. I am sure the decesion was made with what was best for this particular story in mind.

And to be honest, I don't really think ME thinks much about us when they make this show. They tell the stories they want to tell and if we come along, then great. I mean if S6 should have taught us anything it's that Joss & Co does what moves them, and the consquences be damned.

By the way, that's why I love them.

By the way II, I loathe the whole 'Blame Marti' crowd with a passion
I'm with you Unitas, I also loathe the 'Blame Marti' crowd. It's childish and ridiculous to pretend like Joss isn't to "blame" for whatever a fan doesn't like on the show. Then again, I see nothing to blame either Joss or Marti for because I was a huge fan of season 6. It's fun being in the minority.

Anyhoo, LOVED LMPTM and all of the delicious flashbacks and character development. No complaints. Though I would have loved a confession about Giles killing Ben, just as I would love a line about the disappearance of Miss Kitty Fantastico. You never know, perhaps we'll get our wish in the final 5 episodes.
Nothing in particular, unitas, I think it was mostly Joss admitting he hadn't really had the chance to spend an awful lot of time on Buffy, vaguely admitting some mistakes were made and also indicating more and more he's simply not as interested in telling that story anymore. I don't blame Marti or hate her. I just think I would have been better with more input from Joss. And I never said I hated S6. I didn't like some developments. If I hated it, I wouldn't watch it (or start this site!)
Prolific, I never implied that you hated S6 (as matter of fact, I had no idea of your opinion until about three seconds ago). I was merely using S6 to suggest that Whedon & Co. make there show the way they want it to be, and the audience can come along with them or they can reject it.

The general (or should I say, more vocal) fan reaction to S6 was negative. Whedon & Co. could have reacted to this by simplfying character & storylines but they did not. The continued to tell there story they way they want to tell it. I think they focus on Spike because he is the most compeling character to them, not because girls like him
So, what you're saying is I (we... the S6/"Marti Haters") complained because the story was too complex? We hated it because it was simplistic enough? Is that it?

And "loathe" eh? You "loathe" the "Blame Marti" crowd.

Opinions are like assholes... or so they tell me. Guess I'll go back to reading my "simplistic" philosophy studies of the show and pine for the old days when television wasn't too complex for me...
Haunt, allow me to explain myself.

I say "loathe" (which I admit may be too harsh a term) not because people dislike Ms. Noxon but because the comments about her are often shockingly rude & meanspirited. We can all voice our displeasure (that often seems the sole function of the net) but the amount of disrespect & scorn heaped on Ms. Noxon has often been truely vile. She has been one of the guiding lights of this show since S2 and it would be nice if people tried to remember that.

In addition, I would say the show is far more complex in theme & content than it has ever been but what I specifically was referring to in my post is the method of storytelling. The easily could have gone in a more single episode, lighter character direction like say 'Smallville' if they wanted to. Instead, they continue to tell a dark tale that requires more knowledge of the text than just about any show on TV.

You know, I can't believe I am sitting here trying to converse with someone who called me an asshole.
"Prolific, I never implied that you hated S6 (as matter of fact, I had no idea of your opinion until about three seconds ago)."

No, no one implied it. Mindpieces mentioned being a fan of S6 and I wanted to say I didn't hate it either. Thassal.

Now if both Haunt and yourself can tone it down a little when you're talking to each other, this place will stay as pleasant as it always is. Thanks.
Prolific, I think it was your use of the phrase "I never said I hated S6" that led me to believe you felt I was implying something about your feelings for that season. Sorry for the confusion.

I do apoligise for whole thing with Haunt. I really enjoy the pleasantness & peace of this site which I find a real respite from some others. As I said above, I may have over-reacted about the whole Marti-bashing thing but I do find it quite rude at times, as I did Haunt's comments.

I will maintain that the "asshole" thing was out of line.
Y'all started making up too soon. I didn't get to weigh in about how much I loathe those "Hate season 6/Marti Noxon" Arse-holes. *smirk* Season six RULES! It's like the "Empire Strikes Back" of Buffyness, and Noxon helped make it that controversial and "complex" so she deserves kudos and not raspberries.

But anyway my point is y'all kissed and made up before I could comment on the thread which just ruined my day. =)
Ruined your day? Why did it ruin your day? It wasn't that nasty.

By the way, I have no problem with people who don't like S6 (although I feel they are really missing out on something) just people who are rude to writers who after all have done nothing except try to entertain you for all these years.
Raspberries are nice.

"I think it was your use of the phrase "I never said I hated S6" "

I agree, that was poorly phrased. English is my second language -I'm pretty good but sometimes I hit the wrong note.

I'd rewrite it, but then the rest of the thread would no longer makes sense.

In a few years time, I am going to re-watch S6 all in one sitting, and hopefully I'll have forgotten the polarisation/shipping baloney and TWOP will no longer exist due to lack of funding so I will no longer be poisoned with bitterness, and everything will make sense and be wonderful. But I'll still have an aversion to skinny blonde people macking, so I don't know how I'm going to get beyond that!
Mr. Fury,

I’ve never posted anything anywhere before, but after what I saw the other day it seemed somehow urgent to contact you (and others who might understand). Sorry in advance about the length.

I watched with even more than the usual amazement last Tuesday as you played out a potent story about the unresolved feelings we grownups have for the parents we’ve lost, and about how betrayed we feel when parents back away from their roles as our protectors (watchers?) and instead force us into the brutal realities of daily life.

What a fortunate choice you made for Spike’s “trigger:” an old folk tune that has an uncanny ability to burrow its way into your head and set up housekeeping there. I’ve been humming it for the past three days (even envisioning it as a punk tune a lá The Pogues), and the truly uncanny thing is how it has acted as a trigger for some early memories of my own mom. By the time your end credits rolled, I could barely breathe – or see the TV screen.

Mom came of age during the folk-music craze of the late ‘50s/early ‘60s (where today’s kids grow up with Barney songs, I had Joan Baez and the Weavers), and although I haven’t heard “Early One Morning” in decades or even thought about it, I now can hear it in my mother’s 26-year-old alto as clearly as if she were next to me singing it. It’s also interesting that, although you had Spike singing it and humming it earlier in the season, and I vaguely recognized it without paying much attention, it didn’t “trigger” anything in my own head until you put the song into the mouth of Spike’s mother. Moments later, after he tried so naively to save her and keep her close to him, she betrayed him, belittled his love and nearly begged him to kill her. Sometimes it’s better to put a gag in the present in order to hear the more soothing (and editable) voices from the past.

Mom was young then, and beautiful – so happy to be someone’s mother and full of promise for both of us. Then came the inevitable wake-up call, complete with infidelity, abandonment, guilt and recrimination.

Your story showed how powerful people like Buffy, Spike and Wood can still be brought low by their emotional connections to their parents. Spike watched his mother become a demon – heard her talk to him as an adult for the first time – and it made him a monster far more than Drusilla ever did. Believe me, I know where he’s coming from.

How have you been able to do this – at such an amazing level of intellect and heart – for so many years? If the creative team hasn’t already disbanded, please pass along my most profound thanks for their magnificent work on “Buffy.”

I’m really going to miss you.
*looks around*
David's in this thread?
*looks under his shoes*
*checks the beer cooler*
Mmm.. Smirnoff ice!
*takes a swig*

Uhm, where was I? Oh yes. I was exagerrating about the 'ruining my day' part. I was bein' facetious, hence the smirking and emoticons.

On to the original topic. I don't think they had to actually mention Ben to get the point across. The rift between Buffy & Giles has become very pronounced. Her father left Buffy's family. Her mom was forced to desert her to the actual dying and all. However, Giles has deserted her for no particular reason. Partly because he stopped believing in his ability to teach her anything more. Partly because he was uncomfortable with the whole surrogate parent routine. Partly cuz he just longed for home. So it makes sense that Buffy's grown to resent him in that same cold and quiet way she does her father.

The whole Ben thing? I imagine Buffy's figured it out. Much the same way she figured out that her father committed adultery. Call it woman's intuition. Buffy's a lot of things, but she's not stupid.

(I should probably add though, just in case D.Fury is listening in, there needs to be a big final confrontation between Slayer & Watcher in the series finale, and bringing up Ben should just be one PART of it. "Curious what you guys think." said Fury. That's my two cents)

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2003-03-28 23:46 ]
Mmmmmm....pancakes. Everyone likes pancakes!
Personally, I tend to have issues with Marti, not because of the S6 issues (liked it, not loved it), but because she tends to put her foot in her mouth in interviews. She and Fury are extremely gifted writers, but they have a knack for saying just the perfect thing to piss off the most people possible.

And as far as the Spike thing goes, if he gets a lot of screen time (which, I think, is subjective; any time he gets is going to seem like too much if you can't stand him), it's only because the writers consider him to be an interesting character. Not because he's pretty. I mean, so we really think that Joss and co. have so little integrity as to work that way?
I sure as heck don't.
M'kay. I'll bite. Quote something from Marti that'll offend me.

...Favorite Fury Quote Of The Moment:
"Spin-offs are never dead. Like Wood, they're just waiting for their moment."

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2003-03-28 23:42 ]
Ah I see the little emoticons now, Zachsmind. I am horrible with little net symbols like that but figured you were kidding about the whole 'ruined day thing' anyway.

It's an iteresting questions as to whether or not Buffy may have guessed the Giles killed Ben. Maybe when we get a chance to see the shooting script, we will know for sure.

Buffy must know Ben is dead. I wonder what Giles told the other Scoobies as well? He could have said the Ben died in battle with Buffy but Buffy would know that not to be true after her return from the grave.
I will attempt to clarify myself one last time. I wanted to say that it is fine to critcize individual writers for statements and/or scripts but I object to statements like "at least Noxon is bloody well gone". I though Tamara's post above is excellent way to bring up issuses you may have with a writer withough being disrespectful to them.
One more thing. I just wanted to say I found Ar94's post really touching, and hope that Mr. Fury gets a chance to see it.
Who's up for raspberry pancakes? I know I am.
if ur one of those peple who lkikes pancakes ur a idiot. why are they so smooth should have quit after waffles everything went downhill. whoevr came up w/ them sucks and shuld die.
Dude... h4rsh.
RE: Marti's foot-in-mouth interview quotes (of which I've only ever seen one, about 'shippers), it is worth bearing in mind that interviews are almost always cut, chopped, edited, and rephrased to suit the interviewer's agenda. You lose tons of context, as well as voice and facial cues to the interviewee's true intended meaning.
Anyway, this whole thread started because I can't believe 'some people' (Fury's words) didn't think fans would be interested in Giles confessing something he did in S5. I can't believe it because it's one of those points that keeps coming back in discussions over at TWOP - where it's been established some of the writers lurk. So all I can think of is they know sad obsessive fans such as ourselves would be interested, but the general audience wouldn't be.

I've been waiting 2 seasons for Giles to come clean about this. The man is ruthless and he's never had to account for himself or atone. (Well, I guess now he does because it looks like he's lost what should be most important to him, the Slayer/Watcher bond.)

As for writers insulting the fans... sometimes it's annoying, but I do believe that's what they're there for.
Well, if it was truly a "general audience vs. sad obsessive" call, then it's possible the decision was mandated by the network or 20th Century Fox. Remember, ME doesn't have total control over what goes on the air; they have to take input from UPN and the studio.

On the topic of the writers insulting the fans: I still haven't ever really seen this happen. I've seen the writers express opinions about the show and the storylines, sometimes in opposition to the opinions widely held in fandom, but aren't the writers allowed to have opinions?

[ edited by jlp on 2003-03-29 02:39 ]
Now on a vaguely related note, about David Fury's comments about Spike's past getting retconned, it's only really called that if the new story adversely affects the past. The prime example being how Patrick Duffy showing up in the shower caused most of the previous season of the tv series DALLAS to be a dream sequence. That was lame.

Revealing that Spike sired her mother, and the results left him disturbed and betrayed, does nothing but reinforce everything that's happened. It explains why Spike & Dru's relationship was so much a mother/son kinda thing, cuz she purposefully fulfilled that role for him. It also explains why he reacted the way he did when Dru just deserted him for that sponge demon thing. She basically fulfilled the threat that Spike's mother threatened. It explains why he craves attention from the world so much. I mean if Freud could come back to life (or maybe Webster) that session with Spike would make Buffy's recent "Conversation with a dead person" pale in comparison.

This even lends another layer to the joke throwaway line that Clem had last season, where he said "Buffy's a great gal Spike but.. issues." Spike was only ever attracted to women who had issues, because unconsciously he was always trying to win over his mother. This retcon also explained why The First had such a grapple on Spike's mind.

I mean the "Spike's Mom Revelation" doesn't adversely mess up the past seven years, but puts them in a better light. So if it is a retcon, it's a good one. Kinda like when we learned how Anya turned her old boyfriend into a troll and that's what brought her to D'Hoffryn's attention. If it's a retcon, it's a kinda retcon that doesn't dispell disbelief. It helps round out the characters of the series.
So is this officially the longest Whedonesque thread so far? 'Cause I'm lovin' it.
Do you mean by number of comments or by length of responses?
How 'bout them Michigan State Spartans! (Small talk to continue this friggin' long thread. Pay no mind, Europeans who don't watch NCAA Basketball.)
So is this officially the longest Whedonesque thread so far?

I checked the database, these are the longest threads at the moment:

1. Buffy the Animated Series artwork. (36 comments)
2. this thread (35 comments)
3. 'Bring on The Night' reviewed at ScoopMe!. (31 comments)
4. The long wait is over: BtVS S7x01 airs on UPN today. (28 comments)
Next are a couple of 22, 21, 19, 18 response threads.

Of course, by posting this, I'm making this thread tied for first with the Animated Series thread. So if one more comment follows mine, this will indeed be the longest thread.

Oh, and if we're considering length of response rather than number of comments, "Oh Grow Up" and "Top 10 Buffy episodes of all time" still beat these four threads; the latter surprisingly managing to win even without any ZachsMind-comments... ;)
It's funny. I get the sense that, at this point, even the characters wouldn't care much about Giles' revealing that he killed Ben.

I mean, they *eventually* figured out that he was Glory. Glory's gone, Ben's gone. I know our heroes often make a lot of stupid decisions, but I think they'd have figured out that he somehow died. At this point in the conflict, though, I don't think it'd even matter to anyone except Buffy. Considering that their world has 5 episodes left, it'd be more of a shrug followed by "Damn, Giles. That's cold. Well, back to fighting the ultimate evil..." than anything else.

I also kind of like Giles still having a few secrets. It's part of what keeps him interesting; he's one of the characters we expect to have mysteries and auras about him.

A sidenote on the subject of retcon: Normal Again was on FX tonight, and MAN, talk about lousy retcon. I think the whole "when I saw my first vampires my parents put me in a mental institution" nonsense is rivaled only by S2's "This is the same demon that killed my cousin Cecilia!" ridiculosity in Killed By Death. Boo, hiss. For writers who've shown so much subtlety and ability, you think they'd figure out how to better figure that crap.
To be fair we'd probably have to substract the pancake comments.

Pancakes are just soooo MeFi.

We should have our own treat. Do people ever eat stuff in BtVS? Well, apart from, um, blood?
Doughnuts. Angel and co love them and I seem to remember Cordelia taking the mickey out of Xander for buying them for the Scoobies. The Zeppo, I think that scene was in.

Anyway regarding Giles, if Ripper ever gets made we should see some sort of reference to Giles killing Ben.

I'm very disappointed there has been no Ben is Glory? comments in this thread.
"I always have a jelly. I'm always the one that says 'let's have a jelly in the mix."
Doughnuts, beyond The Zeppo. I can't remember which exact episode it is, but I do remember a scene where Giles gets perturbed at Buffy and Willow because they ate all the jellies.

"Did you want one?"
"Yes. I'm the one who always says 'Let's have a jelly in the mix.' "

As for Ben, Giles has killed, kicked the hell out of, and intimidated quite a few people. I don't think it's that important that he confesses. The world is not sunshine and roses, and often Giles will do what needs to be done if he thinks no one else will or can. I can't see him having the urge to unburden his soul. How long did it take for him to admit to unleashing a demon on Earth? Oh yeah, until it came to Sunnydale. At best, I could have seen it used as an object lesson for Buffy, showing how tough choices must be made. I think if the writers really thought it was that important themselves, they could have shaved it down and made it fit. I don't think I'm giving them too much credit there. I don't buy Fury's time problem theory, especially since most of the writers, if not on set for their ep, would be easy enough to call up or call over to the set for a quick rewrite. At the very least, if they wanted to throw viewers, they could have avoided a big scene by Buffy not being phased at all by the news. Like a "yeah, but that was different" kind of reaction. Am I wrong here?
prolific, you beat me. Do you remember which ep that was in??? It's driving me nuts.
It's The Zeppo (3x13)

Wheeeeee, it's the Jelly-esque!
Damn. Is that the only ep where you see the donuts? I'm tempted to plow through my whole collection looking for donuts now.

However, I do have other things to do for the next few days.

[ edited by jack knight on 2003-03-29 14:53 ]
"Respect the cruller! Tame the donut!"
Isn't cereal actually the most frequently featured food in the series?
The show has developed an outright obsession with cereal this year. However, Tara did enjoy making the pancakes ("funny shapes" & all) in 'Bargaining' & 'Wrecked' last year so it's not too bad as the offical BTVS food. Maybe we can call it the Tara Memorial Pancake.

Oh, yeah. Buffy likes pancakes because "they're stackabe"('The I In Team').

Man, I know a lot about what people eat on this show.
They like pizza as well, from what I can remember. Food is a great comforter for the Scoobies after an all night session with evil.

Still no idea what the Cheese Man was all about though.
When watching, I assumed that part of Buffy assuming her responsibilities as the slayer was realising that in killing Glory that she would have to get Ben somehow as well. As someone else says somewhere in the thread, if Glory's gone and Ben's gone ... just another moment one of the worst days in their fictional lives up until that point.
I guess this thread is finally dying. This may be a bit of a cheat to keep it going but I was curious as to what people's favorite episodes of the season have been thus far. You know, just a quick top 3 from people before we kick into gear with the final five.
I guess we could name the episode that disappointed us this season but with so few left it seems rather churlish. Anyway, my top three are...

1) Conversations W/ Dead People
2) Storyteller
3) Selfless

I will say that 'Selfless' (which I have some reservations about) narrowly beats out 'Beneath You' on my list. I think the huge ambitions of 'Selfless' put it over the top.

Anyway, I'd love to hear anybody else's top three, see if maybe there is a concensus.
I'll bite.

1) First Date
2) Conversations W/Dead People
3) Storyteller

Lies My Parents Told Me is a very close runner-up, missing out just because I thought the William scenes were a bit wanky. Conversations was the most ambitious, but First Date is without a doubt my favorite: many revelations, the return of the Hush drawings, the Chinese slayerette, parallel structure, and really great character moments for everyone in the cast. Twas the perfect blend of drama and comedy that we've come to expect.

Worst is prooobably Showtime, with Same Time, Same Place and Potential coming in a close 2nd and 3rd. STSP is much better once you know exactly what's going on, though, but the first viewing was boredom murder.
1) Conversations with Dead People
2) Selfless
3) Lies My Parents Told Me

And yeah, Showtime was pretty bad. I liked Same Time, Same Place a lot, though. The whole middle section of the season was pretty slow and spotty. Pretty much Never Leave Me through Get It Done, all kinda weak on their own (although they're pretty cool as a set).

I liked LMPTM quite a bit, obviously. I don't think there was any "retconning" going on at all (I'll admit I don't like that term and think it's one of those terms that will be overused by people who use it). Backstory does not automatically equal retcon, and I can't imagine why someone would think the backstory provided in LMPTM contradicted or reinterpreted anything the show had previously developed.

As for the "how can a monster be limp and sentimental" question (which might not have been talked about on this thread, but is something lots of people think is screwed up with the Spike character), I'd pose this: If we accept that vampires can love each other (surely we all accepted in Season 2 that Spike loved Dru), then why can't we accept that they can love something other than a vampire?

Seems to me that the relationship between the human being and the vampire they become is a complicated and very interesting thing: in general, we might be able to say that vampires are the humans they were if those humans were not constrained by society or conscience and so could be who they'd always, in the deepest darkest recesses of their minds, wanted to be. This is certainly true with VampWillow being "kinda gay," and it's certainly interesting how much VampWillow resembled EvilWillow from Season 6. There's more than a casual connection between the Vampire and the Human they were.

The thing with Spike, I think, is that we've never really seen a vampire who was such a loser as a human being. (At least, we didn't know it about them.) Spike becomes a vampire and so he can really do what he'd always wanted to do -- in this case, it isn't "kill my parents" (like Angel, who'd hated his parents as a human being), but "cure my mother and stay with her forever," because that's what he'd always wanted.

Okay, this is a little shaky, not fully thought out, but there's something to it.

Does the Spike character kind of fly in the face of most of the vampire mythology/metaphysics in Buffy? My answer: Yes and no. He's different from most vampires, but there is a certain logic to him that fits with the broader mythology established in the show, and LMPTM was a perfect and hugely interesting extension of that logic.

Any episode that's essentially a companion piece to "Fool For Love" has to rate high in my book.

[ edited by delavagus on 2003-03-30 01:18 ]
I guess my three would have to be

1 Selfless
2 Storyteller
3 Conversations with Dead People or The Killer in Me.

This has not been my favorite season ever, to say the least, but I have enjoyed those 4 episodes.
1. Selfless
2. Storyteller
3. Conversations with dead people

(And Giles wasn't even in any of those.)
GO JAYHAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem, I mean:

1.Conversations with Dead People
3.Lies my Parents Told Me/Same Time, Same Place
1. Selfless
2. Storyteller
3. Conversations with dead people

(And Giles wasn't even in any of those.)

Apparently Prolific and I have the same taste. And yeah, Giles wasn't in any of those! And I'm a diehard ASH/Giles fan. Of course, poor ASH got his lovely ten episodes and got absolutely nothing to work with except being a jerk, sooooo. Yes. :)
By my count, ASH has been in seven eps so far this season (7x01, 7x02, 7x08, 7x10, 7x13, 7x14, and 7x17). And I sure don't see him as being a jerk; hell, he speaks for me when it comes to Spike.
Holy frijoles! Look at what happens when you pay attention to non-Buffy stuff for a couple days...!

Zachsmind: M'kay. I'll bite. Quote something from Marti that'll offend me
I'm not in the habit of keeping transcripts of her interviews, as I find them not so much fun to read, but there was that time when she said that all B/Aers are like those people who moon over their high school sweethearts all their lives because they lack the maturity to move on. (I'm working from memory, keep in mind.) Don't know if that offends you, but it sure offended a whole bunch of people. Then, to make sure Spuffy fans were equally irritated, there were her perpetual "Spike is a bad boyfriend" comments.

If it's a retcon, it's a kinda retcon that doesn't dispell disbelief. It helps round out the characters of the series.

So what you're saying then is that it's not a retcon. Yes? (I would heartily agree, then.)

prolific: they know sad obsessive fans such as ourselves would be interested
What? ::sputter, sputter:: Why, how could you ... "obsessed??" Me? ::sputter::
::gives up::
Yeah, fair enough. ;)
I'll throw in my hat with the "I would have liked to have seen that scene" crowd. Here's hopin' for the S7 DVDs!

Wheeeeee, it's the Jelly-esque!

Mmmmm...doughnuts... (damn. Now I want one.)

milov: the latter surprisingly managing to win even without any ZachsMind-comments... ;)


delavagus: ITA with just about your entire post regarding the Spike backstory issue. (Except he wasn't a loser. He was quiet and meek. So there.) ;)

And my $.02 regarding the 3 favorite eps this season:
1) CwDP
2) Selfless
(with "Storyteller" being a close fourth)

Looks pretty similar to most others'.
In other words, Drew Goddard is a genius! :)
"Of course, poor ASH got his lovely ten episodes and got absolutely nothing to work with except being a jerk"

So true. I don't mind him being a jerk, actually - as long as he gets to act, but he's so 'off' it's not even funny. At some points it even makes me start thinking ASH isn't pulling his weight, which is just ridiculous because he really has been the most consistent actor on the show (with one little dip: "and tiny, tiny babies" - ugh). So either he's been told to be NotGiles, or the poor man's exhausted from flying in and out.

(There are points where he works a 16 hours day in L.A. flies home afterwards - attends a charity dinner straight from the airport, spends a very short weekend with the family and then flies straight back to L.A.)
ASH has certainly had his moments, though. The scene in LMPTM between Giles and and Wood, for instance. ASH's performance beautifully showed Giles as being intensely conflicted - you could see the thoughts running across his face. Excellent work, IMO. :)
Is Prolific stalking ASH? That is an intense amount of knowledge of the man's personsal schedule. =)
Now just because prolific hides in his shaving kit, I guess it depends on your definition of stalking. I mean, who hasn't found themself in that situation?

No one was more shocked than me when I turned up in Andy Hallett's underwear drawer.

[ edited by jack knight on 2003-03-31 00:00 ]
Hee. I'm on a couple of ASH related mailing lists.

Apparently, it's boxers.

"The scene in LMPTM between Giles and and Wood, for instance. ASH's performance beautifully showed Giles as being intensely conflicted - you could see the thoughts running across his face. Excellent work,"

True, but I didn't like the way it was framed, I wish they'd given the actors a little space instead of zooming in on them like that. (Must watch it again to see if I remember correctly)
Oh hell, let's make it 67 comments!

[ edited by voodoo_daddy on 2003-03-31 03:24 ]
69 baby! w00t!

I can't believe this thread is still going. Doughnuts, anyone? Everyone likes doughnuts...

And just so I'm not toally OT, I'm agreeing on the best episodes of the season.

1. CwDP (Holden! Bring back Holden!)
3. Storyteller

(with 'Selfless' a close fourth)
I would've been tremendously interested. Some Buffy issues got dropped that really should have been addressed again at some point. *cough* Jesse. *cough* That's the crazy world of TV though, I guess.

*eats doughnut*


Wow, these are really stale.
I would have been very interested in that, how come things like this didn't end up as extras on DVDs?!? I was a little disappointed with the way it turned into the "Buffy Summers Show" anyways. I hated when Giles was removed from the show for a time,and as much as I like Spike as a character, I think taking away his "teeth" in Buffy was a bad idea, liked him much more on Angel than in the last season of Buffy.

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