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July 04 2006

"If Alias could do it, so can Angel". Comic book superstar Peter David (who penned the wonderous Spike vs. Dracula mini-series) answers the question "what would you have showed in [Angel] season six?".

Also of note is that he has no plans to write any more Buffyverse comics for the next few years (boo!) and writing a Firefly/Serenity novel wouldn't be at the top of his priority list (which Keith RA DeCandido picks up on later on down the thread).

Anyhow the relevant Angel comic is buried way deep in the comments, so if you're not one for using Control+F then here's the comment in full.

Having just finished watching the last season of Angel on DVD and knowing you're such a big fan of the show, my question is:

what would (b)you(b) have showed in season six?

PROBABLY WOULD HAVE TRIED TO GIVE THE SERIES A GLOBE-TROTTING FEEL, JUST TO BE DIFFERENT. GIVE ILLYRIA TRANSPORT POWERS, PERHAPS, SO THAT SHE, ANGEL, SPIKE AND GUNN (I'D HAVE FOUND A WAY TO SAVE HIM) ARE ON THE RUN FROM WOLFRAM AND HART AND ARE GOING AROUND THE WORLD. IF ALIAS COULD DO IT, SO CAN ANGEL.


So to my fellow Whedonesque posters "what would you have showed in [Angel] season six?".

I think the more Apocalyptic Season Six could have been, the better. All the characters had been thoroughly established with the exception of Illyria who was still, to a certain extent, an unknown quantity, so to remove them from their natural surroundings and force them to truly count on one another for survival would have made great drama.

And can you IMAGINE Spike and Angel road dialogue?

*sighs*
I'd have liked to have seen them go back to basics, where they started, saving one soul at a time. As for the cast, I'd liked to have kept Angel, Spike, Illria and Gunn (as a vamp, because that was a good idea). I'd have added Andrew, because they'd need a watcher type guy to take care of the knowledge stuff, plus for the comedy value. I'd also have liked for Lorne to return, at least for an occasional cameo role.
I love the way that the show ended, cause anyone can imagine what was the outcome of the battle and how it happenned.

I always imagined seeing Buffy bringing the Scoobies and an army of slayers to help out at the last minute. It was heroes helping helping each other, not really the groups coming into terms with each other.

So my take on Angel Season 6. Would have a tighter cast Angel, Spike, Illyria and maybe another new cast member or some old character joining the group (ex: Groo or someone from Buffy).

The scope wouldn't only be Globe-trotting, but would also be dimension-trotting. With them continuing to fight W&H at its core. I remember watching those Pylea episodes in season 2, which suggested that W&H influence went further, and that would be taken into questioning. With more moral dilemmas, about the having or not having W&H playing their games in the world.
Well, this is also there:
"Any chance you'll ever write a Firefly or Serenity novel?

There's very little chance at this point of anyone writing one. Pocket acquired the rights to do three books: the novelization of the film (which I wrote) and two original novels. Pocket then collected about a dozen proposals as possible plots to fill those two slots. One was by me; one was by Jamie Chambers & Margaret Weis; and others were by other cool folks. They were sent to Universal in June 2005 and Universal forwarded them to Joss Whedon.

A year later, they're still sitting on Joss's desk, untouched and unread. At this point, it's unlikely that we'll ever see Serenity novels, and the reason why is because Joss won't approve them. Which, I hasten to add, is entirely his right: it's his baby, after all."

Hmm, Joss, we want to read them!
Which is the comment by Krad I alluded to at the top of the page.
"Also of note is that he has no plans to write any more Buffyverse comics for the next few years (boo!) "

It's not really his fault. He only included Spike vs Dracula and his series, Fallen Angel, into his exclusive contract with Marvel. So unless Marvel acquires the rights to Buffy or Angel, he's probably not going to be able to write any comics in their verse for the next few years.
I know it's not his fault, it's just that he's really been nailing the Buffyverse with his comics and it's a shame it can't continue.
I would have liked to have seen the return of Fred and her sharing a sort of Captain Marvel/Rick Jones thing with Illyria. And for them to actually address the question of how Angel made it back from 'hell' at beginning of Buffy S3 all those years ago.
I have a feeling that if there would have been a sixth season, the ending of the fifth would have been quite different. Even if the ending is quite open ended, there is a sense of closure in the way "nothing will ever be the same". Too many things changed for it to simply continue. The only thing I see coming out of it would be special features - as was planned - or a spinoff serie.
I always imagined seeing Buffy bringing the Scoobies and an army of slayers to help out at the last minute.

Funny... I always imagined the opposite (as it makes for a much better cliffhanger). Team Angel pulls off a cockamamee scheme against all odds, are about to win the fight, when the slayer brigade shows up and attacks Angel. Because they think he is leading the W&H destructiveness. (Fade to black, to be continued next week...)
"I want my Wesley back, you sonofabitch."

:-)
If there had been a season 6,Wes would not of been killed off and Angel wouldn't of signed the shanshu away.
Why/how did "grozit" become your go-to alien expletive, and how's it pronounced?

(I feel like this has been asked before, but I couldn't find the answer anywhere...)

IT DIDN'T. BILL MUMY CAME UP WITH IT. HE FIRST HAD CATALINA SAYING IT IN "SPACE CASES" AND I'VE COOPTED IT SINCE THEN.

IT'S PRONOUNCED "GROWS-IT," ACCENT ON THE FIRST SYLLABLE.


Cool! I've seen that word used a lot in comics, and apparently Jewel Staite was the first to utter it.
I would have liked to see Faith come over.
I would like to have seen Whistler in the sixth season. See what he thought of Angel.
I'm not up on the comic books, but the Spike vs. Dracula looked interesting. Where do they stand? Is the series finished?

...and got to love a guy who not only answers a 1776 question with a quote--or at all-- but then also throws one in down the line to a totally unrelated question. So I guess my ex and I aren't the only two people in the world who still love that show.
I'd have liked to see Oz return. They're on the run, and he would have been an interesting addition, as would Dana the Slayer - a little more sane. I don't know, though. The death of Cordelia totally killed meeh, so I would have loved to find a way for her to be living again, though that really couldn't have ever happened.

I would have liked to see a lot more about Dawn, though that wouldn't have fit in with Angel. Specifically, I just never quite bought the fact that she was no longer the Key.
If there had been a season 6,Wes would not of been killed off

Just have Illyria use her almost-godlike powers to bring back Wesley. Of course, he ends up coming back as zombie Wesley (but with a soul). A dead man teaching a demon god how to live, kinda gets you right there. For more hijinks, the only way for him to rest again is if he whacks Illyria, so you can have a season full of Wesley Coyote (super-genius) type traps.
CUT TO BATTLE SCENE. PESTILENCE AND FAMINE BEAR DOWN ON THE GROUP.

DAWN: Get out, Get Out, GET OUT!!!
newcj, Spike Vs Dracula 1 to 3 have already been released. Issue four will be released on July 18 and issue five on August 2 with a TPB collection scheduled for September. The series was delayed somewhat due the death of the artist Joe Corroney's father.
I liked the way season 5 ended. Season 6? Gunn's either dead or Undead- no miraculous surviving. Maybe evil and has to be killed. Just one of many very hard things Angel has had to do.

I can't really imagine why Spike and Angel would not go their seperate ways after that, either.

I do like the idea someone else mentioned about a more globe-trotting feel. Especially since it never made any sense why all the ancient European artifacts and other stuff ended up in California.

At any rate, first post! Glad to have gotten tha chance to join you folks. Hullo.
For a while, I didn't believe that Illyria was correct when she pronounced Wesley as dead. She hasn't been around humans long, and doesn't know the difference between passed away and passed out. But then a month ago or so, I payed close attention when Vale stabbed Wesley, and yeah, it looks like it might have killed him. But Wesley was in an exploding building once, he was shot in the abdomen (possibly in the same spot where he was stabbed, which means there could be scar tissue, which supports my he-wasn't-killed theory), and his neck was slit, so to die from being stabbed didn't make sense to me.

My cast includes Spike, Xander {{oh, F! GOOOOOAL!}}, Wesley in a coma, and some chick. {{oh F! GOOOOOAL!!}} Illyria is the big bad, as she has fed on the chaos in LA, and Wolfram and Hart are still a factor. Angel's gone missing, and so has Connor. Everyone ends up in London.
In Season 6 Gunn would have survived but not lived. Drusilla would have shown up at the final battle and bitten him. He becomes a vampire. Evil, of course.
They have many problems with him but don't want to kill him because hey "Two vampires with souls here!" Maybe they could save him, they think.
I don't have a good feeling for who Spike, Angel and Illyria would be fighting though, in the bigger scheme of things.
I think NFA would've been pretty similar if there was a season 6 but Wesley probably wouldn't have died and Gunn would've been vamped (that seemed fairly official). I think Fred would still have died to make way for Illyria because the writers were, IMO, struggling to find things to do with Fred (and possibly Amy Acker was getting a bit bored too).

I like Joss' (I think) post-apocalyptic scenario but i'm not sure about Peter David's globe-trotting idea. LA was such a big part of the noir-ish feel to the show and the whole 'honeypot' thing with the way it attracted vulnerable and lost people to try and realise their dreams (with the inevitable heartbreak for most of them) made it the sort of place that really needed a champion. And cities are equally (maybe more) alive at night so it complemented Angel perfectly. It was, like he tells Buffy in 'Sanctuary', his city.

That said, one of the truly great things about Angel was its willingness to re-invent itself every season so such a radical change wouldn't be out of sorts.

For a real change in format, maybe a sort of 'mission impossible' where the gang travel around taking care of the sort of high level evil that most can't touch ? And, for my money, it's got to have Spike and Illyria together because I reckon there could be a lot of fun exchanges between those two.

(and yep, Arabchick, what a match, that's what the beautiful game's all about. Didn't want either side to lose)

ETA: Gotta add, BTW, that the whole idea of Wes-ley Coyote cracks me up, LOL OneTev ;).

[ edited by Saje on 2006-07-05 00:33 ]
I really agree with all the comments about going back to basics. The series felt a little too complex, getting to the point where it was starting to become soap opera-ish, in my opinion. I liked the first three seasons much better in terms of the ability to follow the series.
Well, I agree with most of what I heard they were planning to do/may have been planning to do, first and foremost Gunn as a vampire (and Spike and Angel not really wanting to kill him, thinking redemption might be possible, which again raises another ethical issue - why should Gunn-as-a-vampire get the chance to live just because he might get a soul when they daily (well, nightly) kill scores of them who all technically has the same tiny chance.) and at least one episode bringing back Nina the werewolf and Oz mentoring her in gaining control of it. I'm not sure if Oz and/or Nina should stay arond for the season or just appear once or twice, though. Gunn would be the major antagonistic element of the season, that's the one thing I'm positive on, and after the NFA-battle most big bads should be eradicated in Los Angeles, making his take-over of it, should he want to, relatively easy.

Gunn being the main villain of the season, I'd have liked for the Wolfram and Hart-plot to continue on a broader scale than Lost Angeles, like has been suggested here by others. Angel and most of his company having survived the battle in NFA, it stands to reason that W&H are out of minions in the California-area, may be even the entire US. They'd still be in all other parts of the world, though, plus in tons of other worlds, and I'd expect Angel to try and pursue the matter with his rare upper hand-situation, having killed so many of their underlings recently. Maybe Gunn as a vampire would retain his hatred for W&H (or it could even increase) and that could be a plot-element, I don't know.
The other plot-factor I'd like is to get a little deeper into the ambivalence of the PTBs, their relationship to W&H, and their connection to Doyle, Skip, Jasmine and Whistler - a cameo of the latter would be appreciated in an episode clearing that up.

As for characters, Illyria, Spike, Angel and Gunn as a vampire would be enough for the beginning of the season. I like the idea of Wes coming partially back due to Illyria's interference, either as a lingering ghost kept from passing on by her powers or as the suggested zombie. If he comes back in some way, however, I would want him to be severly limited, so that his death in NFA still would mean something. As a zombie, he could be completely emotionless, just a cynical (though still retaining his sense of ethics), cold robot-like creature trying to teach Illyria about humanity. Or as a ghost, torn between his wish for peace and moving on and his desperate need to stay close to what little remains of Fred, knowing that he'll not meet her again in the afterlife if he was to pass on.
Lorne could come back, but only for a couple of episodes. His departure should mean something, too.

Faith is the only outside addition to the group I'd consider - I never really liked Andrew all that much, and he's even more of a misfit on "Angel" than on "Buffy". I'm not sure how she's needed in the group, though, they've already got three super-powered warriors, and she's more likely to go out doing the good fight on her own, possibly with Wood, than to join Angel. (Is my feeling, anyway)

Phew, long post.

[ edited by Loki on 2006-07-05 01:12 ]
Spike goes off to his own miniseries (hey, this is my dream, I can budget for it...) leaving Angel with a soul but, he believes, no hope of Shanshu. Illyria stays around, using Fred as a 'secret identity' because Wesley isn't here to be offended by it any more - except that she can see his ghost. That's the core cast.

The fallout of the collapse of the Black Thorn and W&H's withdrawal from LA wouldn't be post-apocalypsey but would be significant in the area's occult underworld.

And I'd definitely throw in a new (non-insane) Vampire Slayer.

Keep Lorne out, until a big two-parter where he reappears, trying to kill Illyria in order to warp time and space to bring Fred, Wesley and Gunn back...

And I'd explain what was up with the fake Watcher cyborg ninja guys.
Season Six: Angel and Spike adopt two toy poodles named Chad and Bethany and retire to Florida opening an upmarket dog grooming boutique. Illyria becomes a PA for a leather wear firm but soon becomes unemployed after threatening all the clients with violence and spending her lunch hours in the reception area talking to the plants and unnerving visitors. As Gunn dies he falls onto some random vamps fangs and becomes turned but before he can unleash the horror of a vamped super smart litigation lawyer on the corporations of LA Zombie!Wesley eats his brains. Wesley suffers terribly from indigestion, grows stubble and looks depressed.

Xander, of course, loses another eye. Wackiness ensues.
Just another thought - I'd really like to see Clem appear in Angel. He moved out of Sunnydale in 'Empty Places', but where did he go?

As far as I can tell, he was one of Spikes only real friends, and it'd be nice to have that link in the show. I'm not sure how he'd really fit into the group dynamic, I just love Clem.
Good Lord, I finally made it into Whedonesque! I thought Joss and the writers, everyone involved did an absolutely brilliant job wrapping up the fifth season in the time they had. Obviously, there were deaths that were horrid and hurt but it all went true to form down to the final showdown. If there could'a would'a should'a been a 6th Season, part of what I'd like to have seen aside from all the great suggestions above (particularly the back to basics of saving people) was that Spike or Angel find their redemption with the Shanshu, that somehow that option was available again. On the face of it, it seems that Angel would be the one since his whole reason for going on was atonement, but exploring the parameters of "I deserve it" or "It's my fate" or, "Hey, I just got lucky" could be really interesting. And the whole who gets Buffy thing would still be left to our imaginations. Maybe.
If there was a sixth season, I would want it to happen the way they intended originally (in other words, no getting cancelled, just going straight into the sixth season). That means NFA would be moved to the end of the sixth season, possibly changed somewhat. This would automatically keep Wesley and Gunn around for the final season. The most important thing for me, though, would be splitting Illyria and Fred into two people. When I heard that the writers had been considering that for season six, it made it even more painful that the show was cancelled. Also, I would loved to have seen Oz show up as a regular, maybe training Nina in her werewolf abilities. And maybe Andrew, although I agree that he really wouldn't fit in as a regular on Angel... he'd be more appropriate staying with the slayer crowd (or in Ripper... hey, if we're going with an imaginary season 6 we can have imaginary Ripper as well).
Signing away the shanshu doesn't make a bit of difference to Angel's eventual redemption. In fact, the shanshu has always been irrelevant. No one else remembers the demon whose blood made Angel human, but Angel does. Whether he can find another one, of course, is open to question.
Quite true, I'd forgotten that. Oh, to eat ice cream in bed again.
Angel and Spike adopt two toy poodles...

How about they team up with the puppet poodle from "Smile Time"?
Would sunlight still be a problem or would something change that?
Lots of Spike and Angel and their past together and working out their problems now. Wesley and Fred/Illyria happy and together.
Gunn I would think was turned already, Dru making anyone a vamp, no way possible.IMO.Oh except Darla,but that was a re-turning.I will speak of this no more. LOL.

[ edited by angelusiredspike on 2006-07-06 03:36 ]

[ edited by angelusiredspike on 2006-07-07 01:46 ]
Well is just so happens I've been living day and night with a season/spin-off in my head for months now. Despite my general loathing for fanfic, I'm coming to terms with the fact that I *WILL* have to write my own. So in the most general terms, here's the basic gist of what's been keeping me up at nights...

Faith is devastated by news of Angel's death in the final battle, but Connor (who stuck around after the Hamilton fight) swears that his father isn't dead. "I'd know if he were really dead", he claims. The dragon destroyed the Hyperion and seeminly "devoured" Angel before flying off and disappearing into the night. Faith and Connor embark on a quest to find Angel.

Spike gets it into his head to try and "save" Drusilla. He's realized that two vamps with souls have done a lot to fight evil and make the world a better place, and Darla found a measure of redemption in her delivery of Connor. So he figures he can find a way to save Dru, perhaps get her a soul. But will he lead her to the "light" of her own free will and get her to SEEK her own soul (like he did), or will he resort to forcing salvation upon her (like what happened to Angel)?

And Illyria is being "haunted" by Wesley. She is having visions of him, very similar to the scene between Wes and the newly dead Lilah back in season four. Is it the "real" Wesley continuing to guide her, or is it all in her head?

Well... none of that lives up to what's in MY head. But there it is.

Oh, and Gunn is dead. Sorry, I loved him too, but he has to fall in battle. Also, I'm considering bringing David Nabbit back into the story somehow. And I've got Lorne's story more or less plotted out too. And Roger Wyndam-Pryce might pop up at some point...
Interesting, I always liked Dru. But how would you get around the whole Drusilla is crazy problem. Would regaining her soul take care of that?
Not necessarily. Part of the fun/drama would be Spike genuinely wanting to help Dru find her own redemption, but there is that whole pesky insanity thing to work around. Spike was always able to deal with her in the past, so he probably feels he's got a jump on the game. But of course he's a different man now than he was then...

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