This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"I'm not fooling. He's not kidding. We’re not bluffing! I'm bluffing. But the rest of us. We mean business."
11945 members | you are not logged in | 22 December 2014




Tweet







September 17 2006

For the last time ever - Angel and Buffy on The WB. The Frog bows out with three hours of Joss' tv pilots this evening.

As a UK resident this really doesn't apply to me, given that I couldn't watch the WB's final hurrah even if I'd wanted to. Truthfully, I doubt I would have done, even given the chance.

Petty as this might sound (and I know it does) I still hold a grudge against the WB bigwigs for giving up on Angel and causing us to miss out on what could have potentially been a fantastic sixth (and maybe seventh) season. That is forty four episodes of Whedony goodness that we will never see but that we really should have.

I take no real pleasure from the fact that the network has folded either. The fact is that the people who will suffer are all those behind the scenes that had absolutely nothing to do with axing the show. Those that made that choice have all gone on to other (in some cases, better) things and so there is no justice in what has happened to the WB, as far as I'm concerned.

At the end of the day a lot of good people may now be out of work because those in the big chairs at the WB didn't have the intelligence to know how to keep the network popular. In fact they didn't know a good show when they had it. Even when a massive fan campaign shoved that fact down their throats. A real pity.
Not renewing Angel will always be a black mark against The WB's name. On the other hand if The WB hadn't taken the decision to air Buffy back in '97, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. No Whedonesque, no Firefly, no Angel, no massive fandom. So I owe them a debt of thanks for having the guts to comission a show based on a movie about a girl killing vampires. Cause no other network at the time would have done it.

And no doubt there's a lot of people here who have fond memories of watching Buffy and Angel on a Tuesday night (if that was the right day) on The WB.
You're right, Simon, and wouldn't it be cool if these last airings of Buffy and Angel were on a Tuesday night?
The concept for Buffy, as I remember it, was shopped around a load of networks back in 96/97, and none of them bit. Until The WB. Sure, people there might have made some moronic decisions over the years, but they were willing to gamble on Whedon and actually advertise his shows, too, which I'm forever greatful for. Truly.

They even aired the 2 hour pilot first, even though it had a lot of character and setup stuff. Shocker.


At the end of the day a lot of good people may now be out of work because those in the big chairs at the WB didn't have the intelligence to know how to keep the network popular. In fact they didn't know a good show when they had it. Even when a massive fan campaign shoved that fact down their throats. A real pity.


At the end of the day, Angel's numbers had started to tail off towards the end of season 5, and it was an expensive show (moreso than Firefly). They opted to use the money elsewhere. Of course, do I agree with them? No. They used part of the money to fund a supremely rubbish vampire soap opera pilot, which was as rubbish as the script. But they are the network, they had issues with keeping afloat, and ultimately, Angel had 5 glorious seasons.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-09-17 13:03 ]
Simon, I'm no expert in the history of any television network, least of all the WB, but am I correct in thinking that the people responsible for giving the go ahead to Buffy in the first place were not the same people who eventually axed Angel?

Again, as I tried to say in my original post, I have nothing against the various individuals at the WB and certainly not those that helped give us Buffy in the first place. My issues are with those who specifically involved with taking Angel off the air far too soon, not the network overall.

Gossi, you pretty much just highlighted my point there. They removed Angel on the basis of falling ratings and expense but had absolutely no idea what they were going to do to improve their ratings problem, leading to the state of play we have today. Had the network gone on to it's most successful season ever, with the demise of Angel, then that would have been a different story but in fact their actions seem to have led to an even speedier demise.

Would keeping Angel alive have been enough to save the WB? I doubt that but then who knows? Listening to a large, passionate and dedicated fanbase really wouldn't have hurt though, would it?

If they had rethought their position and brought Angel back, even for just one final season, then I'd imagine that the response would have been a very grateful potential audience for any new shows they might have wanted to try out and better ratings all around. Maybe this whole WB/UPN merger might never have had to happen. Again, who knows?
Listening to a large, passionate and dedicated fanbase really wouldn't have hurt though, would it?

It kinda does, in some cases - see UPN with Enterprise. Those fans literally camped out outside their offices when it got cancelled, and raised a million or two to try to get them to make another episode. The reality was, Enterprise was leaking money hand over fist.

To be honest, I suspect the WB/UPN thing was going to happen anyway. It's a business thing - they can save money by combining together. From what I recall, there were legal issues which stopped them doing it in years previous.

Ultimately, the money saved from Angel's cancellation probably got spread around a few pilots, and other expensive shows like Charmed and such.

Angel had to end at some point, just like Buffy. The WB were uming and arring about picking up season 5 at all, for anybody who remembers - the last episode of season 4 was written to be a finale to the show as well as a pitch, in case they didn't get picked back up.
I agree with everyone Simon has said. Glad WB gave genesis to the buffyverse, but out of all the shows you could axe in my lifetime as a viewer, they axed my favorite show, and I just wanted one more season so badly. And now, despite promise of tv movies, didn't happen, nor a spinoff, it really fuels the fire, that a series that sells so well on dvd, has such a loyal dedication isn't good enough for a network.

If Fox could promote Tru Calling, they certainly could of done a Faith series or brought on Angel onboard, but perhaps Joss's shows are too good for their network. Look at 24, Fox almost wanted to cancel it after it's 1st season.

The words: "You don't know what you gave birth to", spring to mind when I think of WB.
I don't know - my perspective might be different since I started watching Angel on DVD after it was all over, but much as I would have loved a 6th season, I have a hard time thinking of a TV show that made it 5 years as being a premature death - not when we have shows like Firefly and Wonderfalls that barely even made it off the ground. I honestly give them credit for letting the story arc have as much time to develop as it did.
"At the end of the day, Angel's numbers had started to tail off towards the end of season 5, and it was an expensive show (moreso than Firefly)."

1) The decision to cancel was made in February. Those
latter season eps had not been shown yet so their
ratings did not matter. And remember The WB said in May
or June that had they been making the decision then
that they would have renewed it.

2) There was a small ratings drop in the last months of
S5 but I am looking at the numbers and I don't think it
was all that significant.

3) Could you expand on why the show was so expensive? I
don't think the actors were all that highly paid but I
could be wrong. Was it the stunts and special effects ?

[ edited by JDL on 2006-09-17 14:09 ]
Well, in the case of Enterprise it really was only the most dedicated of fans trying to save it. By that point the show had managed to alienate a very large portion of it's audience all on it's own. Even the massively superior fourth season couldn't do enough to pull it back from the brink and despite being a minor Trek fan I really could not argue with UPN's decision there. When so many Trek fans were calling for the show to end then you know what you have to do.

In fact it's very rare that I will have an issue with any show cancellation. I'm aware enough of the politics of the tv world that many good shows aren't going to find an audience and will end far too soon. Even Farscape, a show I adored, was an understandable decision by SciFi, if a little unfair. At least there they did get to complete the show's story in the mini series.

For me the situation with Angel was unique in the way things developed and to this day I still hold that the situation was dealt with very poorly and the almost patronising way that the fan effort was dealt with (anyone actually appreciate the "thank you" Angel was given at the end of the final episode?) did nothing but rub salt into the wound. I can fully accept the logic that you are offering, gossi. It is, of course, absolutely correct. But for whatever reason that logic won't sit well with me, when it comes to Angel.

One thing that I will agree with is that five seasons is a fantastic run. One that most series never get to enjoy. It's only the knowledge of what season six was going to be that makes that fact so bittersweet.
if a little unfair

Man, you're not kidding. It's one thing to cancel a show that costs about $1.5 - $2 million per episode and has a pretty impenetrable arc for new viewers but to cancel it after categorically stating it would get a fifth season did not exactly enamour the Farscape fans of the Sci-Fi channel, to say the least.

Personally I cannot understand any fan of 'Enterprise' campaigning for renewal after the kick in the teeth that was the season 4 finale. Just plain disrespectful, IMO (I wasn't particularly bothered about the show by that point but it still stung, even at a distance).

I would've liked more Angel, especially given the little snippets we've heard about S6, but i'm also glad the series got a chance to finish the way it deserved so I reckon The WB could've handled it much worse.
That Angel lasted five years is NOT a wonderful thing, considering the consequences of its cancellation. The end of Angel meant the end of Joss's work on television. Buffy had run its course, though not on the WB. The WB cancelled that, too, in all their infinite wisdom. Firefly got FOXed over before it was allowed to get its wings. I think we hang on Serenity as much as we do half because it's the only new live-action Joss we've had since Angel ended. Angel's cancellation signalled a premature end of an era. We were used to new Joss on a weekly basis (or at one point, three times a week), and now there's nothing.
Nebula1400, absolutely agreed! I think you may have summed up a large part of why the whole "five seasons was a good run" argument never really works for me, in this particular case.

Saje, yeah, I may well have understated the unfairness of the Farscape issue a little, hehe. Losing the show on what we then thought was a cliffhanger (and WHAT a cliffhanger!) after we had been promised a fifth season would have been almost as bad as having left Angel and the gang at the doors of Wolfram & Hart at the end of season four after the expected fifth season was ripped away from us at the final moment. Not good!
Could you expand on why the show was so expensive? I don't think the actors were all that highly paid but I could be wrong. Was it the stunts and special effects ?


From what I recall by Angel season 5 the budget had more or less stayed the same but the actors' wages had gone up a fair bit. So that's why the Wolfram and Hart stages were endlessly used cause the production budget had decreased in real terms.

I'm guessing had there been an Angel season 6, there would have to have been an whacking great increase in the production budget to compensate for the annual rise in the cast's wages.
I know we are all still a bit upset that the WB ended "Angel" one season too soon, but remember, the Frog still has some regrets. Why else did they decide to have a show about demon-hunting brothers, even if the budget may be lower?
Anyway, at least the WB was smart enough to take a chance and produce Buffy and Angel, because it got them noticed. Anywhere else, and those shows could have been lost in the crowd.
I think one of the main reason we got season five is that 5 is the magic number for selling the show in syndication. But wait ... that could generating more money, that could be put back into the show. Wrong! cancel it and still make money off it and not have the expense of making a show.

That Angel lasted five years is NOT a wonderful thing


It is, in some ways. Take Angel to FOX - would it get past the pilot episode now?

It looks like former-Angel-showrunner Tim Minear's "Drive" might not get past the first episode on FOX, as it happens.

Buffy had run its course, though not on the WB. The WB cancelled that, too, in all their infinite wisdom.

The WB never cancelled Buffy. At all. They got caught in a bitter bidding war with 20th Century Fox and UPN. UPN offered more money than The WB were prepared to pay. It moved network.

Firefly got FOXed over before it was allowed to get its wings.

Uh-huh. That's pretty a-typical in todays TV market.

We were used to new Joss on a weekly basis (or at one point, three times a week), and now there's nothing.

And TV networks are to blame for that. Joss has suspended his TV contract with Fox because of that very reason, you could suggest.

Ultimately, am I happy we didn't get another season of Angel? No. Am I happy we got 5 seasons? Fuck yeah. You could say the end of WB is the end of the chance for networks to produce slow growing shows like Buffy and Angel, which really is the end of an era.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-09-17 17:03 ]
That Angel lasted five years is NOT a wonderful thing, considering the consequences of its cancellation. The end of Angel meant the end of Joss's work on television.

But you can't blame WB for Firefly's cancellation, or for Joss choosing to make Serenity (and WW, and Goners) rather than new TV shows. So Angel's cancellation coincides with Joss' last TV work, but it's not like WB made him commit to stop making TV. Part of that is simply Joss' choices, I don't blame WB for that.
gossi, what's the scoop on "Drive"? Say it aint so!

Hopefully the little cable outlets like fx will continue nurturing shows like "The Shield".

And on the Faith series mentioned above, I thought Eliza said she nixed that early in the brainstorming phase before a network had the opportunity to pick it up?
Eliza signed up for Tru Calling with FOX before they put a proper offer to her for the Faith series, as far as I understand it. Also worth remembering FOX promised Tru Calling would be back for a second season, then they cut the episode run to 6, then failed to actually show them at the fall premiere, then aired them months later, but forgot to air one of the episodes.

Drive: dunno what the score is. If they were going to go for a January premiere, I think they had to pick it up last week. Tim hasn't posted online what's going on yet, so I'm operating on ye-olde-hunches (which I hope is ye-olde-wrong).

By the way, I'm a big lover (I'm going to regret using that phrase) of cable channels like HBO and Showtime, as they often make commitments to dramas which couldn't or wouldn't be produced elsewhere.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-09-17 17:39 ]
Funny, i could have sworn i mentioned this a while back.
I've noticed that even HBO seems to be a little less willing to take risks in recent years. Both Carnivale and Deadwood have been axed before they reached their natural conclusions.

On the flip side, they kept Sex and the City going well beyond the first season which just goes to show that sometimes cable channels can be FAR too generous! ;)
To this day I still can't help but refer to Tuesday night as Buffy Night. Thanks WB.
Maybe I'm the only petty fan left out there but honestly I take great comfort in the fact that BTVS put the WB on the map and Angel the Series, took it off.

When the fans of Joss Whedon say no Angel on my table, no WB on my cable....they mean it. I haven't watched the network since the day ATS ended and I would imagine that a whole lot of others didn't either. It was nothing personal against every single empoyee of the network and I doubt anyone wished any of those people anything but the best in their life but when you make a statement such as...you do this and we'll do that....you'd better be willing to follow thru.
This fan took the cancellation of ATS as a kick in the teeth to Joss and that doesn't go without repercussions.
I thought this thread was going to be all happy-go lucky, not "death to all TV executives!". Lets face it, the WB is a corporation and their only goal is to make money, not bring quality programming to its consumers. Buffy got moved because of money. Angel got cancelled (as almost everyone in this thread suggests) because of money. Firefly got cancelled because of low ratings, which meant a loss of profit from advertising. Also a money deal. They're not coming back (except for Buffy in comics and Firefly in Serenity). Rejoice at the fact that this will be the last time EVER that you will see Buffy and Angel on the network that brought everyone on this site together (because Firefly was only created due to Buffy and Angel's success). Besides, they are apparently airing the old commercials and promos. That has to be fun.

Also, I think that TV schedule is wrong, my TV guide says at 5:30 is a CW special presentation thing and then it goes straight to Angel at 6:00. That upsets me, because I would rather see Felicity than Dawson's Creek.
cheryl, remind me to stay on your good side, or if I'm not there already to get there. Other creators may have wonderful, albeit subjossian, tales to tell; IMO it seems unfair to penalize them just because of the network that picked them up.

Brisco, well put. Hope you're right about the promos.

And gossi, I'll leave Big Love alone, but never regret your textual musings. If someone doesn't like it, just tell them you're going through a phrase.
jlv - hee.

By the way, all the UPN and WB network promos are available here:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=buffy+promo&search=Search

Also, there's the 1992 theatrical trailer for Buffy The Vampire Slayer which started it all, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8BavoP6208

And never forgot this classic UPN promo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3UJzOcoiPM

[ edited by gossi on 2006-09-17 19:34 ]
I just want to say I'm happy that they are re-airing a bunch of WB pilots for the farewell. It'll be fun to watch them all again. Sure it sucked that we didn't get another season of Angel, but it's not going to stop me from enjoying all the pilots!
*sniff* *sniff*

oh the nostalgia...back when the WB was actually GOOD! i am definitely going to relive the first time i ever watched Buffy and Angel--I was 11 (Buffy) and about 15 or 16 (Angel). those were the only things i had to look forward to during the week, especially since it was always father/daughter bonding time...but im getting sentimental..ibut once more, thanks Joss for the most amazing years of tv ever!
I've boycotted the WB since the end of Angel, breaking that boycott only to watch the JM episodes of Smallville (and, frankly, not even watching all of those, since watching Smallville is so painful). I never saw the early episodes of Buffy or Angel in their first-runs, only the last half of s7 Buffy and s5 of Angel. I am grateful to the WB for airing the shows in the first place, and, through the DVDs that were the result of their giving each five seasons, I have had hours and hours of entertainment. I will watch and enjoy the shows tonight, and I will give the WB their due, but I don't have any regrets that the network has been forced off the air.
I honestly think HBO shows get quite a bit over-hyped. HBO does great things in allowing artistic license (ie cursing, sex, violence, to a greater degree than networks can) and in providing enough capital for high production values, etc. But a lot of HBO shows are essentially standard TV fare with amped up reality BECAUSE of that lack of censorship and the better production values. At their core, a lot of the big HBO flagship shows, are mediocre fare. I know this will not be a popular opinion but Sex in the City was a TERRIBLE show for both aesthetic and political reasons. It was poorly written, with cringe worthy lines every other scene. The charecters were intensely two-dimensional; politicallly it more or less said that women should define themselves through consumer goods and the endless search for a man. Oh, so wonderfully liberating.
Similarly, the Sopranos got so much respect for, essentially, just doing all those things we expect from a gangster movie and putting them on TV without watering it down. But once the therapist angle had become played out (basically one season in) it was just rote repition of gangster cliches, and beating the tired psycho-analytic plot over and over.
My point isn't to bash these shows, they definitely tried and were run by people who cared a lot about the artistic qualities of their shows, I just mean to point out that they don't hold a candle to shows like Buffy, Twin Peaks, Wonderfalls, Freaks and Geeks, etc. All relatively recent network fare that really tried to do something different with the story telling, charecters, etc. Take away that license to curse and show a boob here and there, and those HBO shows become, often, substandard.
ajay42 - in your opinion.
yeah, but ajay42 (not that I agree with your characterization of HBO shows... and I notice you didn't mention Deadwood), all those great, innovative network TV shows you mentioned (Twin Peaks, Wonderfalls, Freaks and Geeks) (except Buffy), were shortlived, non-successes. Network TV didn't exactly nurture them along.
Thanks for all that link to all the promos, gossi.

I especially enjoyed the movie promo, as I had never seen it before.
I see it this way: Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel wouldn't exist if not for the WB. Buffy had an awesome 100 episode run on the WB, that included the shows best storylines. Angel had a fantastic 110 episode run on the WB and no matter how great a sixth season might have been, Angel is a show that truly went out on top and in a way I think completely delivered storywise and emotionally. I'm not saying the WB didn't do some things I wish they hadn't, but they also did a ton that was right. I am very, very over any anger, feeling more and more as time goes on that maybe Angel did end when it should have, but that either way, five years is hardly a cheat (in fact, I kind of wish all serialized shows had a five year limit more and more).
Brisco - "death to all TV executives!"

Not all! Just... y'know... the ones that get in the way of me watching new episodes of Whedon shows! ;)
a.) TV shows get more expensive as time goes on; so the first season is always the cheapest, and the later seasons much more expensive. Which is why the WB balked at paying more for BtVS after season five and probably why it cancelled AtS. Both series experienced a dip in ratings, and were about to get prohibitively more costly, and the smart decision would be to pull out altogether. Together, 10 seasons of mostly hands-off managing of the Jossverse is nothing to sneeze at -- I think in any other hands, even in basic cable (cough*SCI FI* cough), we as fans would have had less.

b.) there's no sense to the argument that the WB should have renewed AtS for another year or more -- paying tens of millions of dollars -- in order to please a small number of fans (maybe less than a thousand fans) who thereafter avoided their programming. You don't spend $40+million dollars in the hope that hardcore fans are so grateful they'll watch the next show you sling out: it's preposterous.

c.) To characterize Sex and the City as a show about 2-D women who defined themselves only by the consumer goods they purchased and the men they slept with is as simplistic as characterizing Buffy the Vampire Slayer as a show about a blonde cheerleader from SoCal who slayed vampires, demons and occasionally slept with them. Seriously. I think both shows will go down in TV history as significant art, and in many ways, SatC has BtVS beat. Not in writing or emotional resonance, but in the construction of the relationships (both romantic and friendship), the show was better than BtVS or AtS.

I love the Scooby gang, but there are so many instances in which the core group didn't feel like a true friendship. While the four women at the center of SatC were always friends first, lovers and shoppers second.
Joss will be back on TV. It's his prefered medium. It's where he belongs. But in the meantime I think he'll be very happy carving out a name for himself as "key-graphic-novel-character-to-screenplay-guy" until imprinting his own style onto other people's comic-book creations wears thin.

Yes, it would be fun to see Fray on the small screen, but it's too close to other stuff he's done. I'd love to see Joss tackle something really different. No spin-offs. No Horror. No Science-Fiction. No Western. He is at his best when he gets the space to scare himself with new challenges. And I for one would rather he did that; "Buffy in Pain - Show Better" he once said. Here's the corollary; "Joss staring at possible failure - Landmark TV".

He could do a Live-Audience show. He could re-invent the Cop Show. Anything. Yes TV is currently much blander without him. Yes, I'm dying to see more of his work.

Not sure I want to see more of the same though.
"Joss staring at possible failure - Landmark TV"

He'd end up casting Leo Decaprio!

Personally, I'd prefer to see Joss' take on genre stuff twisted in various ways in any medium.
All I know is that I am really excited they included Buffy and Angel in this Farewell night... and I think its going to feel like old times... a real memorable event that will be starting in about 20 minutes... and I will be parked on the couch for the entire thing. They brought us Buffy. They brought us Angel. If Angel would have gone on longer, we may have not seen Serenity... everything happens for a reason, and looking back at what everything Joss has given us, we are all thankful for. And for everything that is to come in the future from his mind.

I will miss you The WB... we had our ups and downs... but it all worked out in the end.

Thank You.


- Anthony
I'd hate to get in a back and forth, but Gossi, I did say it was "not a popular opinion" so an "IMO" would've been a bit redundant.

Anyway, I'm willing to just leave it at a disagreement, but I cannot understand how anyone finds Sex in the City either well-written or progressive. There are ways to embrace women's (and people's in general) sexuality and sexual openness without defining them by it. And the celebration of consumption on that show cannot be denied. Carrie lives beyond her means (yet somehow never has any actul money problems...) and uses consumer goods to deal with emotional issues. Isn't that funny?! (not to mention the classic stereotype of women as "irrational uncontrollable consumers" vs. the "calm rational male" who is portrated as a paragon of "consumer sovereignty")

One thing which gets overlooked, even with all the various Buffy analysis that goes on out there, is how well Joss subtely displayed class difference and its social consequences. Playing off the classic TV problem of the "outcasts" being as essentially modely beautiful as the "popular kids" Joss throws in tons of clues that Xander is from a signifigantly more working class family than any of the other charecters; and that, while he is as good looking, funny etc as any of the kids portrayed as popular, is a signifigant factor in why he is an outcast. Despite some fairly clunky product placement in later seasons ("let's look that up on my handy dandy macintosh computer!") consumerism was dealt with in interestingly ambiguous terms. Neither condemned (buffy does have her stylish yet affordable boots) nor praised (just about everything about early seasons cordelia is, well, less than positive.)

Anyway, I'm super off topic. So shutting up now.

Anyway, I'm willing to just leave it at a disagreement, but I cannot understand how anyone finds Sex in the City either well-written or progressive.


Well, given it ran for - what - 6 years and won a boat load of awards, I think it's fair to say a few million people enjoyed it.

It's the first show I remember seeing where women, like, had sex. With other people. And it wasn't love and puppies and marriage.

Ultimately, if you don't agree with the concept of a show, you aren't going to enjoy it. I've seen more than a few people saying they couldn't possibly understand why people watched "Buffy The Vampire Slayer", "Angel" and "Firefly".
Why are we talking about Sex in the City when we could be talking about Buffy and Angel instead?

This is after all a somewhat historic day (might well be the last time a Joss show is shown on a US network).
Not to get too far off topic but I totally with ajay42 in regards to Sex in the City. My sister loves the show and I was pretty much offended by it whenever I got stuck watching it. As a women scientist I always found Scully from X-Files to be my strongest role model, right below that was Willow, and least of all, the superficial women of Sex in the City.

To stay somewhat on topic, although I'm still completely bitter at the WB for cancelling Angel (and I haven't watched the network since, although that was made very easy cause everything they've had on lately has sucked) I do appreciate the small gesture of putting the "Angel" pilot in their list of pilots in their final farewell, as it at least acknowledges it as one of the shows that did have an impact on the network.

And they certainly did give Buffy a chance, something I doubt any network would do today. So props to the WB for bringing us some of the best shows on TV, notwithstanding the rest of the crap they brought to the airwaves.
Can we move on to Sex in the Buffy instead?

Actually, I should reword that. Actually, I should apply for a job at The Sun.
Might well be the last time a Joss show is shown on a US network...

:(

stupid world, it's all your fault. I'm starting a boycot. (just a joke ;))
Ah, The WB. At the beginning, we didn’t even get The WB, but would get the primetime programming on WGN. It was the 8th grade and everyone was so excited about the Dawson’s Creek season finale (afterall, it *was* the 8th grade). That’s when I found Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The first episode of Buffy I saw was “Becoming, Part 2” and there was this character named Angel. I thought Angel was so hot (once again, it was the 8th grade). And at the end of the episode, Buffy had killed the handsome bad guy. I had no history on the show and I had no idea what it was about other than the superficial stuff, but I was caught by the great writing right from the start. The next episode I saw was a rerun of “Bad Eggs” during the summer and a preview for “Surprise/Innocence.” I caught up on past episodes by reading transcripts online (of course, nothing was like finally seeing them on FX years later).

What some people had said about “We never would have had the Buffyverse without The WB” has some truth to it. On another network, it might not have made it past its 4th episode or its first year. The WB gave us a total of 10 years of the Buffyverse, and I’m very thankful for it. I was very upset when Angel was cancelled just like everyone else. I went through the 5 stages of grief—Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance—and have decided that great TV comes and goes. Now I’m watching great shows like House that are very well written and have interesting characters that I care about. They wouldn’t win a fight against either of the Buffyverse shows, but they’re good in their own way.

So anyway, farewell to The WB.
I have Angel on right now as I type this.Man does it bring back memories.I have all the seasons of both Buffy and Angel on DVD but this is the first time I've watched it on a network in years.I've gotten so use to watching it with no commercials on DVD.lol

I started watching Buffy when it came to my area in the middle of season 2.My first episodes were the Buffy 2 night event,"Surprise" and,"Innocence."If anybody doesn't remember,that was when Buffy moved from Monday to Tuesday and they showed the first part of the beginning of the Angelus arc on Monday and continued the next night.I was hooked right away.I got caught up on past episode events via The Buffy Cross and Stakes and lurked on the board there.I then saw all the reruns The WB aired between season 2 and 3 although they never re-aired,"Teacher's Pet" or The Puppet Show" so I didn't see those two for quiet a while.

This really does feel like the end of an era to me.And now as I finish typing this,Angel and Cordelia just met up at the party.
Have they shown any of the old promos?
There was just a promo for Buffy and Angel on DVD. Their tag: "Buffy and Angel, forever on DVD." I couldn't have said it better myself.

As for the old promos, I haven't seen anything more than those "stand in front of the WB logo" things mixed together. And there was this one with James van der Beek and Scott Foley in a car arguing. That was old and cute.
For those watching, was that the original opening for the premiere of Buffy?
I was wondering the same thing having not season the majority on first air.
This makes me sad. It IS the end of an era. A great era.

The promos , IMO, are fantastic. I'm on the edge of weepy. (Just the edge)


*cue Sarah McLachlin music*
This sucks for me! My WB network affiliate already switched to MyNetwork tv so now I can't even watch the damn thing! That makes me so pissed!
GOSSI: “Personally, I'd prefer to see Joss' take on genre stuff twisted in various ways in any medium.”

"I love genre. I love fantasy. I love science fiction. I love horror. I love musicals. I love finding a different way to express what I want to say. And I think, ultimately, it works best for me -- because otherwise, it would be boring and didactic and I wouldn't know what the hell I was doing. Genre helps me with structure, and structure helps me get through the day." -- Joss Whedon, The CulturePulp Q&A with Joss Whedon, September, 2005.

WHEDON: "First of all, there’s no genre I’m not interested in. The sensitive family drama, I have trouble with. Apart from that, there’s nothing. Everything’s good. Musicals, comedies..." -- Joss, June, 2006 interview at wizarduniverse.com


MALCOLM: "Joss will be back on TV. It's his prefered medium. It's where he belongs."

"I would love to do TV. I miss it very much." -- Joss, Joss Whedon/John Cassaday podcast interview by Comic Book Insider from San Diego ComicCon 2006.


MALCOLM: "He could re-invent the Cop Show."

Q: "... inspire you, perhaps, to create your own TV police procedural?
JOSS: "I have no immediate plans to do a series right now. I do, however, have an idea for a procedural. I can’t believe that I do. But I’m not going to realize it for some time. Because I need to take things at a different speed for a while. I had a notion. I went, 'Oh my God, I can’t believe I just found a procedural.' That’s the last thing I ever thought I would make."
Q: "I’d guess you would start it as a procedural and turn it into something else."
JOSS: "That’s usually the way it is." -- Joss, from an Aug./Sept. 2005 InFocus Interview with Jim Kozak.


BRISCO: "Lets face it, the WB is a corporation and their only goal is to make money, not bring quality programming to its consumers.

"WHEDON: I think money is standing in the way. What is ever in the way? What ever makes anything happen or not happen?" -- Joss, June, 2006 interview at wizarduniverse.com

I'm still, and as always, hopeful. Bye to the WB -- so long, and thanks for all the fish!

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2006-09-18 01:52 ]
Oh, SpikeBad, that explains it! I was wondering why I wasn't getting my Buffy/Angel fix...instead they have a stream of excessively dull stuff listed on what was once the WB. Of course I could take out my DVDs so I would be with the rest of you in spirit.
Here in L.A., the "Friday Night Smackdown" (wrestling, I guess) is just ending, Felicity, Angel, and Buffy pilots are scheduled. Felicity is just beginning...
Apt quotes, QuoterGal!
Oh, SpikeBad, that explains it! I was wondering why I wasn't getting my Buffy/Angel fix...instead they have a stream of excessively dull stuff listed on what was once the WB. Of course I could take out my DVDs so I would be with the rest of you in spirit.

Same here. The WB's been dead and gone in Sacramento for two weeks, and we won't get the long goodbye here. Thank goodness I have the DVD's, too.
But if they started her show with the original opening where they talked about other Slayers, I am going to be sooooooooooooo...not happy
Well it's officially over here in Connecticut. Have to say, seeing Buffy, Xander, and Willow walk off before Giles giving the kick off line brought tears to my eyes. It's been fun.
well, its over. sad day. its been fun
Thanks, Pointy One, this thread just brought them up from that messy storage locker I call a mind.

Okay, here in L.A., Angel has just begun, and Angel just did that iconic walk down the alley. God, this show is so L.A., even when it's not. I actually am feeling a tad nostalgic... and I forsee another Angel marathon in my immediate future. Oops, we're back...
I may be a pacifist, but that doesn't stop me from wanting my own weapons cabinet and a lot of cool gadgets. And that has to be the slowest elevator ever.
I always loved Angel's wrist stakes.Buffy just ended here.It's been a while since I watched Welcome to The Hellmouth/The Harvest.Everybody looked so fresh faced.
Yeah, same here -- while DB is still and always beeeaaauutifulll, he's so bloody young-looking here on the first season of Angel.

Heh-heh. "I'm in a very serious relationship with a landscape architect." Great line.
OK, the voice-over to the lead-in for Buffy said: "In 1832 the founders of this town unwittingly built their new community over a gate of evil. Now nearly two centuries later, the evil has been unleashed, and only one person in the whole world can hope to stop it. And now from executive producer Joss Whedon, the epic two-hour premiere of Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Is this the one anyone remembers? Sorry for being obsessive, but I never saw the premiere as broadcast.

And, like others, I'm a little teary-eyed -- if only because I saw so little in its original broadcast, and missed out on so much -- and, despite the commercials for the DVD saying that for those of us who are obsessive they are available forever, I do have a sense that this may be the last we see of Joss's work on TV -- at least for a very long time.
I thought it wasn't unwitting at all. I thought the Mayor specifically planted it there.
I missed the pilots on network TV due to unavoidable youngness, so I've relied on TNT, FX and DVDs. (Where would that sentence be without initials?) This evening was great in that way, to see these as they originally appeared, but sad, too, because instead of being the beginning of years of Jossy goodness -- well, it's back to the DVDs. But, nothing is permanent, and so we have to accept change as part of life. And not only are there DVDs for looking back, there will also be S8 comics and WW and Goners and Runaways and so on for looking forward. And I'm looking forward to all of that! :-)
Someone has to post these promos on Youtube.
The stupid WB outlet in Detroit isn't showing the pilots, just regular non-network programming. I s'pose it makes sense -- when Buffy and Angel were on, they pre-empted them constantly for sports stuff, so why would they show them now?
Charisma, however, really looks almost exactly the same now -- in fact, maybe better.

(How annoying that not all WB outlets are showing the BtVS & AtVS pilots.)

I am so looking forward to one of my favourite Angel moments coming up at the end of this ep...
Man, I know when Russell Winters vamps out he's s'posed to be uber-evil, but that doesn't mean the vamp paint job needs to be camouflage-heavy...
"Can you fly?"

Out the window!!! What a mission statement!

And what a stunt.
I remember back when Angel first started and how people were complaining about the new vamp makeup and the sunlight slips.This is definitely bringing back fond memories.
Okay, last Angel comment: I would like to consign the person who came up with the visual-ads-at-the-bottom-of-the-TV-screen-while-the-show-is-going-on to the very special hell -- the same exact ring where people who talk in theatres are sent.

ETA: Angel's hair-with-product in this ep looks just in like that Angel drawing that Joss did for Spike's punching-bag target towards the end of Buffy.

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2006-09-18 03:59 ]
Bah! I was lied to! I was told it was going to be old commercials, like the 1-800-Collect one and what not! Oh well. There were some pretty Veronica Mars promos. Still bummed that Felicity didn't air on WGN9. And that CW special was kind of pointless. The Veronica Mars promo was the same one on the website and on the Season Two DVDs. But, I'm suddenly interested in Runaways, and can't decide between Vanished, Runaways or Heroes. I wish I had TiVo...

SpikeBad, I live in Canada, so I have to watch Buffy on satelite. But that's not my point. I also happen to get a WB station on antenna, and noticed as I was flipping through the channels (was recording satelite and watching antenna) that the WB station 49 (I don't know which one it is) had a MyNetwork logo in the corner, but was still airing the tributes. Weird.
On Buffy, all their little faces still have baby-fat! And I know it's a big DUH, but SMG is just so good.

"What kind of a name is Buffy?"
QuoterGal! Here we go again...

"The new kid? She seems kinda weird to me. I mean, what kind of name is Buffy?"
"Hey, Aphrodesia!"
"Oh, hey!"
I always get sentimental during the introductions between the core four.

Oh, and baby fat galore.

"The only thing I could think is you're building a really little fence."
"It's like a whole big sucking thing."
"It's like a whole big sucking thing."

And so is the putting-to-sleep of the WB. :(
haha, QuoterGal.

"Did you get the free phone?"
"The Earth is doomed."
"Can you vague that up for me?"

(Hey, TZ.)
"Geez, could you vague that up for me?"

Man, so many catchphrases born in one twenty-minute block.
(Hey, isn't there something you're s'posed to say when two folks do that? Is it snap or something?)
These brief old promos are making me teary.
I'm so glad I got to see Angel on the WB. First time ever.

I second the notion for the promos on youtube!
SpikeBad, did you put the DVD on so you could share?
It was a non-event here. The WB went out unceremoniously in this area. Not even a good-bye! So I watched reruns on the CW this evening.
Geez, DB, could he be any more gorgeous?
Sprung Monkey. Okay? Sprung. Monkey.
Well I just got back from watching them... ON A MOVIE THEATRE SCREEN! Pretty cool. The WB folks here took it pretty seriously and they had a Goodbye WB party at a movie theatre. Free food, WB merchandise and contests. Sad but fun watching Buffy and Angel go out on the big screen. It wasn't too heartbreaking for me because of DVDs but seeing all the old promos was pretty sad. Ahh the good days.

On a side note, I almost got kicked out for yelling at someone who kept calling Joss JOSH.

[ edited by hitnrun017 on 2006-09-18 04:35 ]
No I didn't QuoterGal. I just felt like saying my favorite quote from the whole premiere. Really wish I could be watching it with you all though. Damn Philly Affiliate!
Cordelia never changed. Never faltered. I'm noticing that right now. Bravo.
"Nobody cool has Epstein-Barr anymore."

(hitnrun017, yeah, good ol' Josh Wheedman.)
Aside from buying DVDs of TV shows, I haven't actually watched broadcast TV since that last Angel episode in May.

For a while, I watched a lot of TV. Sci-Fi Channel was decent once upon a time, and I left it on more or less continuously, with little breaks for Tuesday's Buffy (sometimes Angel) combo. One by one, the shows I liked got cancelled. I had to get Dish Network to get Buffy on UPN. The side benefit is that I didn't have to deal with my logo-happy local WB affiliate slapping storm warnings on Angel every time a cloud thought about appearing on the distant horizon.

By the time Angel was over, I was down to just that one show. Now I buy DVDs of cancelled TV shows, just so I can avoid getting interested, then having the rug pulled out from under me (which also applies to Farscape). Bring me your dead TV shows, cut down before they were given a chance.
(Ol' Fruit-punch mouth rising like Esther Williams...)
"Aren't you just going eeeewwwwwwwww?"

That's one of my favorites.

I've been just this side of teary-eyed all evening. The promos are getting to me.

They start with "Faces I remember......"
Buffy DVD promo.

"Forever on DVD"

I'm almost a wreck.
I know -- the DVD ad said "Feed Your Obsession" and my partner said, "Yeah, like yours needs any more feeding..."

Buffy said, "a job of work," which I'd never heard anyone but my family elders say before this show.
I have Angel on right now as I type this.Man does it bring back memories.I have all the seasons of both Buffy and Angel on DVD but this is the first time I've watched it on a network in years.I've gotten so use to watching it with no commercials on DVD.lol

Buffyfantic, I completely agree. I was watching Angel, and now Buffy, and completely concur.

Also, Zeppo, I too.
TheZeppo, how are you getting the WB? By satellite? I've never been able to receive the WB and now it's not even showing up in the listings for this week. Probably just as well - I just finished watching all seven seasons of Buffy (except for the last 2 episodes because then I always want to watch either S5 of AtS or Firefly right after and Aurra lent me their BSG DVDs). And if I had watched either episode, I'd just want to watch the whole series through ;-).

Keep posting quotes, though, both of you. I love all those lines.
I'm on the west coast. Los Angeles. The WB Farewell is rolling along and hammering those final coffin nails.

As much fun as this is, it's starting to leave soury tastes on my tongue.

"I need to sit down."
"You are sitting down."
"Oh. Good for me."

Waiting for my very favorite line. (I'm sure QuoterGal or someone else will post it when it's said)

[ edited by TheZeppo on 2006-09-18 05:02 ]
Darla, man. So ANXIOUS.

"His blood is pure!" Line delivery cracks me up always.
And this has extra sentimental layers: my first name is Jesse. :)
ASH & "Exposition Theatre" -- though he do make it interesting. I always loved librarians, but Giles sent it over the top.

I'm so glad Darla got less girly later in the show(s).

GILES: "Buffy is a slayer. Don't tell anyone. Well, I think that's all the explanation you need."
Darla probably grew up after, you know, she got staked.
"There's no 'we' here, okay? I'm the Slayer, and you're not."
"I knew you'd throw that back in my face."

LOL.
Yeah, the well-known maturing effects of, well, being dead.
Being dust, really.
"... in Bri-tain..."

Flutie forev.
"I mean, yesterday my life's like, 'Uh-oh, pop quiz.' Today it's 'Rain of Toads'. "
To everyone who watched BtVS when it premiered, what were your first impressions of Angel?

I caught them all on DVD, so I was robbed of that mystery.
CORDELIA: "Finally the nightmare ends. Okay, so how do we save it?"
Willow: "Deliver."
Cordelia: "Deliver? Where's that? ... Oh! (hits DELETE key.)"

Ha! Revenge of the Nerds!

(I'm trying not to slam Caroline's WHEDONesque servers too much...)
"It's cool, Buffy's a superhero."

Alright, I didn't know the server was in danger. I'll post my favorite quote and then just scroll, I guess.
Angel: I just assumed he was gonna provide love interest for Buffy. (I thought he was a little too smirky, which didn't work for him. I was glad that trait disappeared shortly.) I knew he'd be a "good guy" but I didn't guess "vampire with a soul." What was I thinking?

Man, he sure got his acting chops up fast!
TZ, I don't think it's in danger with just a few of us -- Caroline mentioned after the Serenity thingy that it would be a prob next time if many did it.... I was just being careful in case more people were joining us, but it looks like not.
Just lurking, I guess.
Don't you hate it when a vampire's got your ankle? Man, I hate that!
And here it is. *sigh* My favorite.

"I don't like vampires. I'm gonna take a stand and say they're not good."
The DVD promo gave a hat tip to Buffy/Angel shippers, as well. I'd say it was a great ending to the WB.
When did Buffy watch The Wild Bunch intently enough to reference it? I mean, honestly. Even I wouldn't reference it, and I was an uber film geek.
(Didn't the scores get a lot better over time? I really noticed the incidental music in the pilot shows, and as time went on the music was noticeably better. I'm sure that cost.)

"The Earth is doomed!"

Hurray!
Walter Murphy was the composer for Season One, and his stuff is usually more traditional, classical.

Christophe Beck's score was much younger and melded better with what was going on onscreen.

QuoterGal, are we going nuts with Dawson's Creek too? Or is this goodnight?

[ edited by TheZeppo on 2006-09-18 06:01 ]
I never noticed that "Wild Bunch" reference before, TZ, good point. It must be hard to write for a 16 y-o when you know so much more than they're likely to.

Well, again, TheZeppo and all, a pleasure to watch my favourite show(s) with you on this auspicious occasion. Gotta go do a couple of layouts due tomorrow, and I've been a baad graphic artist. I must stop posting... 'Night, all.
Guess I'm all alone with Dawson and his creek.

Katie Holmes... how could you go so wrong?

(nite, all)
"The only thing I can think of, is that you're building a really little fence."
I'm okay. *Sniff* Really. Good night, 'verse.
*sniffle*

I'm all nostalgic and sad about the end of Buffy/Angel again. Curse you WB! And also.....thank you.

*sniffle*

I love the promos too! It was a nice send off and I loved the little B/A tribute too.

Thanks Gossi as well for the links on You Tube for all the UPN/WB promos. God, I really AM all nostalgic.

I really need a big screen reunion of these two shows....I MISS Buffy, Angel, Giles, Willow, Xander, Faith, Gunn, Wes, etc, etc...
I didn't watch Buffster or Angel when they were on tv - most of that time I didn't even own a tv, but somehow I caught some of the promos, and I still have a mingly place in my heart for the memory a voice intoning "Sunnydale has some new blood" and then swaggering Spike "So who do you kill around here for fun?"

It's so hard to explain to outsiders why Buffy has such a powerful effect. I can't even understand it myself, except when I'm actually watching it and feeling the pull.
Dear CW,
first, the name of your network sounds like you're an independent station from Winnepeg

second, please treat the shows you got from UPN with respect. Not just "Top Model"...all of them (although I fear for Veronica Mars' ratings health when American Idol starts again).

third, find Joss and bring back Slaying. Introduce some new Slayers more interesting than the potentials we had towards the end of the series. If Kristen Bell didn't already have her own show, she'd be on the top of the list. Otherwise, get Eliza Dushku. One last hurrah with Spike and Dru. Have Amy Acker back as Fred-lyria. Get some American Watchers, like ex-police officer Kate Lochley. The possibilities are long and wide.

fourth, networks should not be green. Find a better color scheme
You people are forgetting one of the main reasons many of you
were upset at Angels premature ending. It was deemed a crime
against nature that AtS was dead and that Charmed was renewed
just because the WB owned that show. Charmed has its virtues but
it also has a boatload of cringe-worthy baggage.

Had the WB owned Angel it probably would have been renewed
based on the huge future income streams from the re-runs and
the DVD's.
Had the WB owned Angel it probably would have been renewed
based on the huge future income streams from the re-runs and
the DVD's.


If, if, if...

It surprises me how much people are chastising the WB for thinking only about money, when clearly they were supportive of Joss for *years*... and as if we don't all take money into consideration when we plan to do things! Or decide we can't afford to do them. It's simple maths.

Thank You, WB. For Buffy. For Angel. For bits of Dawson's Creek.
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to watch any of the pilots tonight. But I'll always remember back when the pilot for Buffy first aired and I decided it was the best show ever after the teaser bit with Darla and Red Herring Guy in the school. Good times...
Dear Katie Holmes,

How do you stay so pretty?

I'll forgive you for Tom. If you beg.

Love and creepy internet messages,
gossi.
I agree that what damned the WB was their inability to replace aging shows, which they might have had a good business reason for cancelling, if only they'd had the ability to replace them with anything viable. Notice their only post-Angel show surviving is Supernatural, which is pretty but crap. And they really were damned, because almost none of their management carried over to the CW.

Nice send-off, anyway.
Love and creepy internet messages


That, gossi, is the next sincerely!
I'm still midway through the thread, so I'm typing this as it goes.

From what I recall by Angel season 5 the budget had more or less stayed the same but the actors' wages had gone up a fair bit. So that's why the Wolfram and Hart stages were endlessly used cause the production budget had decreased in real terms.


Exactly, there were even a few interviews back then, where I believe Joss or or another producer (maybe Jeff Bell, since he was helping Joss run the show, or maybe Chris Buchanan) said the real budget was even close to what they had back in Buffy Season 1. The first half of the season is extremely W&H office heavy.

When the fans of Joss Whedon say no Angel on my table, no WB on my cable....they mean it. I haven't watched the network since the day ATS ended and I would imagine that a whole lot of others didn't either.


At least the fact that I live in another country, I can't really say that I even supported or either stopped supporting either The WB or UPN.

What The WB used to do, and stopped around the time Buffy moved to UPN, were those clips with casts from their shows, trying to show how "hip" they are (or were to be more pricise). Those were sort of fun. Did they show those in this farewell thingie?

I agree that what damned the WB was their inability to replace aging shows, which they might have had a good business reason for cancelling, if only they'd had the ability to replace them with anything viable. Notice their only post-Angel show surviving is Supernatural, which is pretty but crap. And they really were damned, because almost none of their management carried over to the CW.


Supernatural does look cheaper than Angel or Buffy ever was. And possibly was took in account. Hey, we're doing a new genre supernatural (no pun intended) and is cheaper than those whedon shows. And they even got some ex-whedon show actors to appear in the show.
To be fair to Supernatural, it isn't attempting to be a Buffy type show. Despite the obvious supernatural element it is a totally different style of series, much more similar in style to the early X-Files, in my opinion.

It took a while to grow on me but certainly by the end of season one I would say that it has improved tremendously. The characters have grown on me and the backstory of the demon that killed their mother is keeping me interested. In fact it is the only show returning for it's second year that I'll be tuning into.

Although the fact that it is nearly the only show returning for a second year AT ALL would make that a little redundant! ;)
Thank you, WB, for five years of Buffy, five years of Angel, and one season of James Marsters on Smallville.

Thank you, UPN, for two years of Buffy.

The shows ruled. You gave them a home and us a chance to see them.

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home