Whedonesque : Comments on 11504 : Report of a "Drive" test screening.

There's another test screening report on IMDB. They're doing tapes which self erase as they play. The feedback I've seen from the test screenings has all been great - FOX putting Tim on Standoff is kinda annoying in a way, as it means Drive may miss it's potential premiere slot in January.

gossi | October 02, 19:33 CET

They're doing tapes which self erase as they play.

Seems a touch excessive, no?

Grounded | October 02, 19:40 CET

How very Mission:Impossible.

Willowy | October 02, 20:00 CET

Seems a touch excessive, no?

Not really - you don't want an unfinished pilot of a show to appear online potentially 6 months before it airs.

gossi | October 02, 20:05 CET

If this is the case, then that may the reason Fox put Tim on Standoff. If I remember correctly Drive wasn't his creation, he was brought in to fix it.

delirium_haze | October 02, 20:05 CET

Nap, it's his and Ben Queen's creation - both are credited with creation, along with various gods. I believe Ben took the concept straight to Tim.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-10-02 18:12 ]

gossi | October 02, 20:11 CET

Delirium_Haze, Ben Queen approached Minear with the concept of Drive and they developed and pitched it together. It was The Inside that Fox brought Minear into fix before.

ETA: Gossi beat me to it... darn.

[ edited by Jackal on 2006-10-02 18:12 ]

Jackal | October 02, 20:12 CET

Tim, come and fix my sofa.

gossi | October 02, 20:13 CET

Ok, thanks for clearin' it up guys. gossi, is that your way of telling us Joss was in your home?

[ edited by delirium_haze on 2006-10-02 18:20 ]

delirium_haze | October 02, 20:20 CET

What, Joss broke my sofa? That's some code. He wasn't. But my cat lives there, and she is almost as cool as jay wee.

gossi | October 02, 20:23 CET

Let´s hope FOX is listening (or in this case: reading) and greenlights more Drive soon.

They're doing tapes which self erase as they play.

There are such things? One never ceases to learn...

Kessie | October 02, 21:26 CET

Yep, Kessie - an example is Underworld. They actually played it to test screening audiences first, but nobody noticed at the theatre.

gossi | October 02, 21:39 CET

I don't really get a feel for this, except it's lots of car action...Fastlane 2?

Rogue Slayer | October 02, 22:17 CET

Yep, Kessie - an example is Underworld. They actually played it to test screening audiences first, but nobody noticed at the theatre.

I almost thought you meant that they re-used the self-erase tapes (from the test screenings) during the actual release, but that no one noticed the difference (between a blank screen and Underworld).

OneTeV | October 02, 22:24 CET

OneTeV - He may have meant that, he didn't like Underworld :)

zeitgeist | October 02, 22:34 CET

z- someone did?

Willowy | October 02, 23:04 CET

I've spoken with folks who have, I personally fell asleep during it :) (and the sequel)

zeitgeist | October 02, 23:22 CET

Willowy, I tried really really hard to like Underworld. Does that count?

April | October 02, 23:23 CET

someone did?

I know hubby can stare at ~~Wonder Woman~~ Kate Beckinsale's leathery butt for great lengths of time...

Rogue Slayer | October 02, 23:23 CET

Not really - you don't want an unfinished pilot of a show to appear online potentially 6 months before it airs.

That's right. We don't want that. We need it! Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Tim is clever, though. I imagine that theoretical Internet searches for "drive" would be difficult. Almost as difficult as theoretical searches for "inside". You can tell that "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is from before downloading shows took off. ;-)

Niels | October 03, 00:24 CET

As did I, April. Thought it looked really cool, but ultimately it wasn't enough to carry the picture. All style no substance never is, actually... :)

Rogue Slayer, (Yes, that Ed... still lovin' the leather, hmm?) fret not. You got the Speedman eye candy in your corner!

Willowy | October 03, 00:26 CET

Now if like me you're, yeah, awesome, Tim Minear comes over for dinner and shows you the pilot of DRIVE. Which was, yeah, awesome. Tim described it to me as "'Magnolia' with cars", which I got 'cause the characters are great, but that didn't prepare me for the intense cool driving action or the gorgeous shooting. Plus you can just see how the show works, which is not always the case with pilots. (Of course, it helps to have Tim sit there and spell out the upcoming twists, which is akin to watching them, as he's ever the spellbinder). Also, ginormous props to my old pal Melanie Lynskey, who's magical in it. It sould be on TV; TV would be grateful. I'm just sayin'. -j.

joss | October 03, 03:31 CET

Ooh sounds cool, thanks for the jealousy inspiring description Joss. I wish Drive would just get picked up already! It doesn't make sense cause I'm clearly extremely awesome, so my Mum tells me anyway, and yet Tim hasn't brought Drive round to my house for a screening.

EDIT to fix the less than awesome mistakes that someone else must've made.

[ edited by Paul_Rocks on 2006-10-03 01:54 ]

Paul_Rocks | October 03, 03:52 CET

I feel this really blew LOST out of the water!!

It's so hip to bag on Lost. I wish *I* could be one of the cool kids and hate that show. But alas, I'm a loser and I still enjoy it. *sigh*

As for Drive, I'm not familiar enough with what the heck this show even is... but it is Tim Minear, which is a major plus. And The Jay-Dub says it's cool, so I'm sure it's cool.

(Not as cool as hatin' on Lost I'm sure, but still super cool.)

Haunt | October 03, 04:26 CET

(Joss-From-England, or Joss-From-USA? Will you bring us back Natalie Haynes with you if you get a chance?)

As I may or may not have mentioned before, *wink* and *foos*, Tim may or may not have shown some folks at a panel at a recent San Diego con some portion of the pilot, I may or may not have been there, it may or may not have been fast-paced, beautiful and riveting, as we either were or were not sworn to secrecy, *wink, wink* it was so unclear. *sigh*

(And Tim may or may not told us that he had to help pick out Drive Lingerie.)

So we may or may not be at least some portion of awesome -- but there was no dinner involved, and almost no snacks. That I'm sure of.

And without any ambiguity whatsoever, I want this show to be on. We need it.

(So much writer-y stuff on whedonesque today. Yay.)

ETA: for Haunt: DRIVE wikipedia entry.

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2006-10-03 02:58 ]

QuoterGal | October 03, 04:27 CET

Well, I guess that settles it. I am not awesome. Unless Tim Minear came over to my house while I wasn't here. Yeah that must be it. My TV did feel a little warm when I got home. As though it had been used recently. And then there were the dirty dishes in the sink....

Lioness | October 03, 06:09 CET

lioness, was there Tim Minear spoor on the rug? That's the definitive sign of a Tim Minear Visitation... I hear...
QuoterGal | October 03, 08:12 CET

Alas, Tim hasn't flown to Liverpool to show me it, or seen my play (called Kittenish Overboard). But I have read a version of the scriptoid, and it reads really good. Plus there's loads of characters for Tim to dispose of.

Plus, a character called Violet. Which has nothing to do with Goners, but I choose to believe it does.

[ edited by gossi on:21 ]

[ edited by gossi on 2006-10-03 06:23 ]

gossi | October 03, 08:21 CET

"I feel this really blew LOST out of the water!!

It's so hip to bag on Lost. I wish *I* could be one of the cool kids and hate that show. But alas, I'm a loser and I still enjoy it. *sigh*

As for Drive, I'm not familiar enough with what the heck this show even is... but it is Tim Minear, which is a major plus. And The Jay-Dub says it's cool, so I'm sure it's cool.

(Not as cool as hatin' on Lost I'm sure, but still super cool.)
Haunt | October 03, 02:26 CET"

Even though I am not emotionally invested in Lost one way or the other, Fairness Girl would like to point out that raving about something and then saying that it blows Lost out of the water, does not indicate negative feelings about Lost. It could, in fact, simply illustrate the writer's extremely high opinion of the item doing the blowing. Fairness Girl has not read anything else by this writer and so has no knowledge of whether an opinion of Lost has been given previously. Fairness Girl is addressing this posting only. That should be taken account when reading this comment. Thank you. Fairness Girl signing off. Back to Newcj.

I would reeeeeeally like to see this pilot everybody is talking about. Argh

newcj | October 03, 08:25 CET

Dear Tim Minear,
Please come to my house to show us Drive, 'cause we're, yeah, awesome. My mom'll make pie.
Kittens!

billz | October 03, 08:35 CET

Pie!

Dear FOX,

Please come to my telebox and show me Drive.

gossi | October 03, 08:49 CET

People at the World Con panel on Writing the Buffyverse were treated at the end to about the first five minutes of the pilot for Drive. It was a huge action race scene that also had an amazing amount of character introduction in it. Minear and Peristere were both very proud of it, with good reason. I'm now hoping Minear's participation on Standoff is a pro quo for Drive being a mid-season replacement. But I don't really know anything about how these things work.

dreamlogic | October 03, 08:53 CET

Always nice to wake up to a Joss post. So does this mean he's seen my blog? 'cos that would be nifty.

Jackal | October 03, 09:38 CET

Fairness Girl, are you a separate physical being, or do you and Newcj share the same body? And if the latter, are there more of you in there who sometimes come out to play? And what did you do with the original cj, anyway? Is this Three Faces of Eve or Invasion of the Body Snatchers? (I loved them both so you're cool in my book either way).

jaynelovesvera | October 03, 10:17 CET

I look forward to seeing this one. I really enjoy Tim's work. This'll be great, especially since "Lost" has lost some of its spark and I don't like "Heroes" as much as I wanted to. Go Tim!
On another note, Ben Edlund wrote this week's great episode of "Venture Bros" on adult swim.

Arabchick | October 03, 10:37 CET

Arabchick, you are my hero! I went totally mental when I saw "Benjamin"'s writing credit at the end of Venture Bros., heh. And, yeah, ep 2 of Heroes not as great as the first one (too slow, not enough happened), hope 3 gets interesting again. To be continued. ;-)

billz | October 03, 11:13 CET

~~I hope none of the aJossmentioned upcoming twists are resolved after episode 13.~~ I hope 'Drive' is a huge success so that Tim gets a chance to develop all the no-doubt brilliant upcoming twists. Whaddya mean ? I practically ooze positivity ;).

Fairness Girl refers to herself in the third person. Saje finds this slightly disturbing. But fair.

(i'd add that it's not much of a recommendation for 'Drive' if the blogger doesn't think very highly of 'Lost'. They'd be saying "It's better than this show which I think is shit". Wow, i'm totally watching 'Drive' then. That's up there with 'Not as bad as being shot in the face' or 'More comfortable than piles' in the high praise stakes. So it seems likely they like 'Lost' - and that we'll like 'Drive', if it gets the chance to impress)

Saje | October 03, 12:55 CET

my sisters name is Alexis Tully!

tullyano7 | October 03, 14:33 CET

Well, one thing seems pretty clear by now: the opening sequence that introduces the characters in the midst of a highway action scene in one long take that runs from car to car is memorable to say the least. (I mean, EVERYONE mentions it.)I really want to see it, now.

Septimus | October 03, 15:45 CET

So Jackel, are you saying this is your blog? Things have to be spelled out for me sometimes. If so, what else can you tell us about the pilot.

JLV, Fairness girl and I, Newcj, share the same body. Since you have brought the situation to my conscious attention, I think she may have been emerging as a separate entity since I first ~~sold out to~~ started ~~being a stooge for~~ working in Corporate America. Although Global Repercussions Girl has been almost totally repressed after a lifetime of working at it (since she can make me appear insane besides totally ruining an otherwise really nice day) Fairness Girl still pops out. At work she simply makes me grind my teeth, feel my blood pressure rise and want to say things that will make me unemployed before my time. She obviously does not belong there. However, on the internet she seems to be finding a place where she is needed and will not make me cease to be able to support my son.

Saje, As for the third person thing, I think she may want some distance from the situation to make it clear that she is not trying to start an argument, but simply help present alternative explanations.

ETA: I meant to make it clear that I would confirm the previous assumption when I next spoke to Fairness Girl as she will not be available until this evening. Sorry, I forgot because I was late for ~~my daily lobotomy~~ work.

In reference to Three Faces of Eve or The Bodysnatchers, I am thinking Greatest American Hero, if that is the right name. It could be something else though, since this body has gained a lot of weight since Corporate America came into the picture. I have only seen two horror movies in my life. Perhaps the experts here can give me an opinion. I'm not going to *physically* split into two entities if this continues, am I?

Oh, and CJ is around, but not here...

[ edited by newcj on 2006-10-03 15:21 ]

newcj | October 03, 16:30 CET

newcj, I feel compelled to ask, "Am I talking to Miranda now?" ;-)

billz | October 03, 16:52 CET

So Jackel, are you saying this is your blog?

I am.

Things have to be spelled out for me sometimes. If so, what else can you tell us about the pilot.

Apart from the pilot script being really good, all I know is on the blog already.

Also, for anyone worried that Drive may be like Fastlane, that would be the same as saying Firefly is like Enterprise. It's really all about the characters, as you'd come to expect from Minear.

Jackal | October 03, 17:24 CET

Well, one thing seems pretty clear by now: the opening sequence that introduces the characters in the midst of a highway action scene in one long take that runs from car to car is memorable to say the least. (I mean, EVERYONE mentions it.)

Didn't Tim say they spent a few million on the opening sequence, Jackal? It's pretty wacky - I think it cost more than Donnie Darko cost to make, for the opening few minutes. And yeah, everybody mentions it...

gossi | October 03, 17:40 CET

Gossi, I remember hearing the first few mins cost a couple of million. And I was surprised. You'd think Fox would rush to greenlight something they've put so much money into already.

Jackal | October 03, 17:47 CET

Well, they did spend $8.9m or some such on Firefly's "Serenity" and then failed to air it first, so know you.

I'm ill today and crank. Kevin against the world (or FOX, anyway).

gossi | October 03, 17:54 CET

newcj, physically splitting only occurs in single-celled organisms. Psychological splitting is more complicated, and I know less about. I would suggest letting Fairness Girl out at work, getting fired, and joining me on unemployment, except I think you have a lot more expenses, with a kid and all. So I just suggest watching lots of Whedon on DVD, and continuing coming here to joke and vent. Oh, and read Dilbert, it seems to help people some.

Arabchick and others interested in Heroes. I don't think they can wait as long as they seem to think they can wait to establish a protagonist. The show needs more focus. The hot Indian doctor is the obvious choice, but I'd even take the evil dad.

dreamlogic | October 03, 18:03 CET

gossi, hope the crank makes you feel better. The thought of you taking over the world is Kevinly.

newcj, I feel compelled to ask, "Am I talking to Miranda now?" ;-)

billz, I laughed so hard I hurt myself.

newcj, Fairness Girl, and Global Repercussions Girl: lovely post, ladies, but I'm worried about CJ. Could one of you check on her?

jaynelovesvera | October 03, 21:38 CET

Whoa, making the master laugh, and laugh to the point of ouchy. jlv, dude, that so rocks -- THANKS!! :-D

billz | October 04, 01:14 CET

"newcj, physically splitting only occurs in single-celled organisms."

...So my brain is in danger, but not the rest of me? That might be good. I always wanted two brain cells to rub together. ;-)

JLV, CJ sends her love to all. She will be the one to answer your very kind e-mail concerning the RMX (or whatever group of initials it is) feed. She answers all my e-mails that are from people rather than from machines selling stocks or male enhancement medications.

"newcj, I feel compelled to ask, "Am I talking to Miranda now?" ;-)"

(Shoots bilz a whithering look. 'Nuff said.)

I am trying to picture this great opening sequence for Drive. Something with roaring cars that would wow me and have a lot of character development. If it were anyone but Tim Minear or a very few other writers, I would be extremely dubious that that was even possible. In that it is TM and that Joss is one of the people oooooing and ahhhhhing, the fact that this sounds so impossible makes me want to know how they did it even more...cause I have no doubt they did it.

newcj | October 04, 01:28 CET

I think the opening sequence is awesome partly because Drive has 100% more Loni Peristere than almost all other TV shows combined.

QuoterGal | October 04, 03:25 CET

I don't think they can wait as long as they seem to think they can wait to establish a protagonist. The show needs more focus. The hot Indian doctor is the obvious choice, but I'd even take the evil dad.

*sigh* I continue to be puzzled by the painfully short attention span of the average television viewer. I haven't sensed the show (talking about Heroes here now) moving too slow. I mean there've only been two freaking episodes, for crying out loud. Isn't there some law of nature or physics or quantum mechanics or something that says you need to see a certain amount of a show before it can be accused of moving too slowly? Seriously?

I'm enjoying Heroes so far, not feeling it's moving too slowly. Not concerned that there's no "clear" protagonist or antagonist yet... since that's not really the point of the show. It's not about THE protagonist. It's about different, seemingly unconnected people that will (presumably) gradually come together. Not every "team" needs a "leader". *shrug*

But I digress. Drive will be awesome, I've no doubt.

...as long as it moves quickly enough. Don't shuffle your feet, Tim. Cut to the chase ASAFP so we'll all know who's who and what's what immediately. ;)

Haunt | October 04, 06:42 CET

Short attention span? Damn, I must be off my meds again. Now what is it I take?

If you'd read the whole thread pre-rant, Haunt, you'd have seen the part about the amazingly economical and exciting character introduction in Drive, which the writers of Heroes really need to see.

dreamlogic | October 04, 10:49 CET

I said months ago, I think Heroes won't last past a season judging by the pilot, as the pacing was basically dire.

Also, there are some quotes for Drive on IMDB here.

gossi | October 04, 12:05 CET

Gotta say i'm with Haunt here. Liking 'Heroes' and liking the way it takes its time (it badly needs to lose the hilariously over-the-top 'Previously on...' voice-over guy though). I hope they don't do the thing where they show a scene from the previous episode and then continue from the end again though. Found myself saying 'Yeah, we know' a few times when they repeated stuff.

It's still in the setup phase, still the opening game and, IMO, if you manage the setup gradually and then suddenly 'BANG!' everything starts to come together it makes the pay-off all the sweeter. Not every show should need to hit the ground running (or driving ;), sometimes a bit of a warm-up's good for the muscles.

(that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it suffers in the ratings because of the pace which would be a pity)

Saje | October 04, 12:31 CET

Oh, Saje, I do actually agree in many ways. As viewers, we shouldn't be so obsessed with everything-at-once, and people should be more willing to invest in shows to see them flurish. In reality, though, that doesn't happen as much as it should.

That said - I compared the pace of Heroes pilot to Losts pilot. In reality, with Lost, all you really learnt was there was a plane crash and there was a dinosaur (or something) on the island. In reality, though, they had a lot going on and each break was well structured.

Anyway, it's not like I can bitch too much - it's not as if I could write something better.

gossi | October 04, 13:06 CET

Decompression!

Oh, wait, that's only what they call it in comics. :-P

I like Heroes (though I've only seen the pilot). The pacing might be different than most shows, but I don't mind something unique--another show that sometimes felt tragically slow was Carnivale, and that hooked me enough that there were cries of despair when it was inevitably cancelled before its time.

Niels | October 04, 13:16 CET

I'm still watching. But I don't sense much of a build-up yet, just a dismaying formlessness. I'd love to be wrong.

While we're comparing Heroes with Drive, Drive seems to find the humor in each character, in a very, um, Whedon-esque way, while Heroes has one broad comic-relief character. I like him, but not his contrived position in the show.

ETA: Thanks, Telltale. I couldn't think of an example to prove that I don't have a short television attention span, but Carnivale fits the bill. I loved it at its most glacial. Slow, but structured.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2006-10-04 11:24 ]

dreamlogic | October 04, 13:18 CET

OK, here comes a slightly schitzoid comment ;) but much as I enjoyed 'Carnivale' I thought parts of the first season were a little bit slow (I also thought parts of BSG S1 were a bit slow too - especially the Helo on Caprica arc - even though I reckon it's one of the best shows to come along in years).

Part of the reason I kept watching both was for the 'feel' (in Carnivale's case the really excellent sense of ominous, hopeless doom that hung over most of the proceedings and the occasional chink in the darkness that Ben Hawkins represented) and the excellent characters (Samson, Ben, Sophie and Jonesy in Carnivale, pretty much everyone in BSG). 'Heroes' isn't quite there yet but I reckon it could be given a chance.

Re: buildup dreamlogic, we have the overarching plot about the genetic outliers as represented by Mohinder, the newly introduced 'evil' superbeing in the form of Siler the serial killer, the cheerleader and her father and his knowledge of her powers as well as his part in the whole thing and obviously also a massive catastrophe about to befall New York (within the next 6 TV weeks if the newspaper date is to be believed) as discovered by Hiro when he unknowingly travelled into the future - as well as being comic relief he also seems to be the lynchpin around which the show's early plot arc will revolve. I think that's a fair bit of buildup from 90 minutes of TV. As mentioned in relation to Carnivale though I guess whether it seems builduppy or formless depends on how you take to the characters and the general vibe of the show. YMMV as they say ;).

Saje | October 04, 13:54 CET

I really hope we get to see Drive because I love Wonderfalls. I was still in my TV mourning period so I didn't start watching until Timmy came on and personally asked us to but I then bought the DVDs. Love it!

Heroes I was really really looking forward to but it is kind of losing me a bit. There are so many different stories that it is hard to get really involved in all of them. I am interested in the flying brothers, the cheerleader, the artist, Hiro, and Mohinder but we only get snippets. The mom with mirror issues loses me.

A really good example of painfully slow pacing is Smallville. I gave it one more shot last week just to see if I could still watch without Brainiac and the answer is no. It is as slow as a soap opera. Great fight scene between Clark and Zod/Lex but other than that a lot of people taking way too much time to say nothing we haven't heard before. There is only so much mileage you can get out of extended close-ups on pretty people's faces.

But it has managed to last more than five years so I guess pacing isn't everything.

Xane | October 04, 19:33 CET

I think the problem with Smallville is not so much that it's slow--it's more focussed on the separate episode plots, which, well, finish every episode. The problem's the reset button. They're constantly trying to make Clark into Superman and Lex into Evil Lex, but then they realize that without the friendship between the two, they don't have a show.

[ edited by Telltale on 2006-10-04 17:55 ]

Niels | October 04, 19:54 CET

Interesting article on the Daily Variety website -- Studio 60 is badly slipping in the ratings, Heroes is up. A genre show finding an audience? That would rock...

billz | October 05, 00:49 CET

Heroes is up? Wow. Okay, I talk rubbish. Maybe there will also be a Serenity sequel now...

[ edited by gossi on 2006-10-04 23:13 ]

gossi | October 05, 00:53 CET

[photo, what photo ? Mad as a box of frogs so y'are]

'Studio 60' slipping badly ? That's kind of ironic given the last episode's resolution. I'm not that surprised though, there seems to have been a fair amount of criticism from the start (certainly in the blogosphere). A lot of people seem to be wondering how the making of a comedy show can possibly be as dramatic as running America and also feeling that the dialogue is a little overblown (which you can forgive West Wing for - see 'running America' - but maybe not S60).

Personally, i'm still giving it a chance because I like clever dialogue, even if it maybe knows it's clever a little too well, and because Matt Perry has been (and continues to be) an absolute revelation (to me anyway).

[ edited by Saje on 2006-10-04 23:25 ]

Saje | October 05, 01:14 CET

Gotta say i'm with Haunt here. Liking 'Heroes' and liking the way it takes its time (it badly needs to lose the hilariously over-the-top 'Previously on...' voice-over guy though). I hope they don't do the thing where they show a scene from the previous episode and then continue from the end again though. Found myself saying 'Yeah, we know' a few times when they repeated stuff.

It's still in the setup phase, still the opening game and, IMO, if you manage the setup gradually and then suddenly 'BANG!' everything starts to come together it makes the pay-off all the sweeter. Not every show should need to hit the ground running (or driving ;), sometimes a bit of a warm-up's good for the muscles.

Much love at ya, Saje! I'm continuously frustrated by the need of the "general public" to have all the prurient details of a story blurted out so quickly. I have no doubt that after tonight's Lost season premier there will be those complaining that a full sixty minutes into season three we STILL haven't gotten enough answers. I mean there are only 23 more hours to go... how long can they drag this crap on anyways? ;)

(Okay, snark over... for now.)

Haunt | October 05, 04:19 CET

I only made it through about five minutes of Studio 60. I only made it through about twenty minutes of the pilot for The West Wing, which Joss liked, so I know I'm bad. I just don't like Aaron Sorkin, I guess.

Haunt, to repeat a hint for the last time. Read the whole thread.

dreamlogic | October 05, 05:24 CET

Dreamlogic, thanks for the hint... but someone is bound to take this back and forth for serious snark and flaming, so let's drop it.

I didn't use any names, wasn't necessarily taking about you (or even anyone in this forum, or on this site for that matter). I was speaking in general terms. In fact my exact words were "general public". I post on more sites than just this one, and whether or not my snark refers to anyone here, it absolutely applies to OTHER sites.

Haunt | October 05, 07:28 CET

October 02 2006