Whedonesque : Comments on 11619 : Buffy & Angel inspired Torchwood.

I remember seeing a documentary about the making of one of his dramas, the one with Christopher Ecclestone playing a man who said he was the son of God. Second Coming, I think.

Anyhoo, he was sat in his office being interviewed and you could see the spine of a Btvs video on the shelf behind him, with Spike on it.

Torchwood, from the clips I've seen, is probably more Ats than Btvs I reckon.

I adore RTD. *whispers* More than Joss. I know that's heresy here, but damn I just love Russell. :0)

lynnie | October 17, 19:13 CET

Whedonesque II - The Heretic has a nice ring to it.

Caroline | October 17, 19:17 CET

Well the last UK show that said it was inspired by BtVS was Hex...

Based on RTDs Doctor Who I'll assume Torchwood will be vastly better.

zz9 | October 17, 19:20 CET

I enjoyed Second Coming and Bob & Rose quite a bit, I still need to catch up on a couple of other RTD things, but I like his stuff. I think he's being spread a bit too thin right now and perhaps encouraged to make things a bit more obvious than suits his style. Regardless, I am so looking forward to Torchwood (and, of course, Doctor Who "season 3", though I had quibbles with the back half of "season 2").

zeitgeist | October 17, 19:24 CET

BBC 3 will have a great line-up this sunday. RTD is great. I won’t be watching though, cause I want to finish DW season 2 first. (I'm shocked to now hear the back half isn't so good Zeitgeist) Everbody who will be watching, have fun.

I think it will be more like Angel too; Episode 2 - Day One: Torchwood must stop a sex addicted alien as it leaves a trail of gruesome deaths in its wake. Sounds a lot like Lonely Hearts, doesn’t it?

[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2006-10-17 17:37 ]

[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2006-10-17 17:52 ]

the Groosalugg | October 17, 19:36 CET

Oh this is making me want to see Torchwood even more and I didn't think that was possible...

rockgoddes | October 17, 19:58 CET

I am looking forward to Torchwood, but Russell has a long way to go before he reaches anywhere near Joss' heights.

To start with I have never got the slightest inkling watching a Jossverse show that he thinks women are icky. Season two of Doctor Who however... (This post says it far more eloquently than I could ever)

TheDivineGoat | October 17, 20:09 CET

On the whole I like RTD's work, (especially Queer as folk, his best prodcution to date) but he has yet to prove himself as good a writer as Joss I'm afraid on the eveidence of his scripts for the last two Who seasons.

sueworld2003 | October 17, 20:23 CET

Russell is good but there's only one British Joss Whedon.

No, it's not Jimmy McGovern.

It's....

Wait for it.

Ricky Gervais.

He pours the same amount of effort and dedication into his shows that Joss does. The actors, the dialogue and stories all click together in a wonderful cacophony of something or other.

Simon | October 17, 20:31 CET

I've said it before, so I don't want to go over it too much again, particularly as I know a lot of you do like Dr Who, but I just didn't think it was very good. I will probably watch Torchwood to see if it's any better but I'm not holding out much hope. But maybe with a more adult take on it, better writing and no Billie Piper it could be a lot better.

Razor | October 17, 20:32 CET

'Goat - first of all, hello! Secondly, I wouldn't pin the women thing entirely on RTD. There's other writers and producers on Dr Who. You can say the same thing about Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel. When you break down the men & father figures in those shows, there's a hell of a percentage of men who are 'bad' in them.

Also, I'm less likely to slag off RTD as he's pretty much the only genre producer/show runner on the BBC in the last 10 years who has had any success. So he must be doing something right.

gossi | October 17, 20:34 CET

Sorry, I don't understand the BBC3 categorization upthread. Does that translate at all to BBC America which I get on cable here? I'm hoping I can take a look at Torchwood.

Well the last UK show that said it was inspired by BtVS was Hex... CHOKES.

Tonya J | October 17, 20:34 CET

Tonya - BBC Three is a UK cable channel. Not sure if it's obtained US distribution. At a guess Sci-Fi will pick it up if it does well here and air it next year.

gossi | October 17, 20:43 CET

Thinking on it, I actually did enjoy 'Fear Her' quite a bit and while the 2 part finale had huge holes in it I did enjoy it. Just the Cybermen and 'The Satan Pit' I mostly didn't care for. Speaking to the RTD negative on women thing, there was a lot said about how positive he was on women while S1 was ongoing (and Rose in particular), so I dunno if its just that its been toned down and perceived as being negative or what.

If you break down the male characters in the show, you will see the same negatives attributed to men that the linked post goes over. All genders and orientations get their share of horrible death and evil as far as I can tell :)

zeitgeist | October 17, 20:55 CET

Why shouldn't women be villians? Also, that doesn't equate to them being "icky". They are strong motivated go-getters (heh, watched Time Bomb the other day.) who just happen to be baddies. Why should the men have all the fun.

Anyhoo, there are many who aren't too enamoured of how women were depicted on Btvs either. And the men. It's all individual opinion, of course.

Back to the heresy. I love RTD. :0)

lynnie | October 17, 20:57 CET

I thought Doctor Who series 2 was awesome from top to tail. Much more consistant and slightly less tack-factor than series 1 which I also loved a lot. If Torchwood lives up to this, it should be awesome.

On the mysoginist thing - overread much?

Mort | October 17, 21:02 CET

My loathing for the Cyber Eps and "The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit" know no bounds, likewise my love for "Tooth and Claw", "Fear Her", the Madame de Pompadour ep (I do love Steve Moffat), etc. :) I think the analysis of the role of women over-reads some areas and ignores others; in other words, I'm with Mort.

zeitgeist | October 17, 21:16 CET

Razor, I'm with you, I'm afraid. The adoration of Doctor Who goes right over my head. I've watched it enough now to know that I'm never going to be able to like it and I don't intend to bother with Torchwood either. Just not my style of shows at all. Sorry, DW fans.

Little bit of trivia though, although you all probably know this already, but Torchwood is an anagram of Doctor Who and was used as a fake series name on early Doctor Who scripts to avoid news of the new series leaking to the press too soon.

The Watcher | October 17, 21:43 CET

Is this the same Mr. Davies who was interviewed for the OMWF extra on the DVD? If so, I am a bit confused how/why he was related to a U.S. TV show.

holymother | October 17, 21:55 CET

It's like Doctor Who? For an older audience? Thank God!

whosflyingthisthing? | October 17, 22:29 CET

/agree whosflyingthisthing. I felt like I was being beaten over the head with things that were incredibly obvious "to make sure the kids get it".

zeitgeist | October 17, 22:41 CET

Wow, I had no idea it was starting this Sunday.

areacode212 | October 17, 22:45 CET

Two episodes this Sunday btw. Repeated on BBC2 on Wednesday.

Simon | October 17, 22:50 CET

I have high hopes.

Now, to get it to be successful enough that they look at the Giles series again...

Craig Oxbrow | October 17, 23:03 CET

Simon, your Gervais talk is interesting but crazy. The Office was impressive, and Extras season 1 had some good moments, but season 2 is increasingly showing him to be a one-trick pony.

mjwilson | October 17, 23:22 CET

I agree with lynnie. I adore Russell T Davies. I've yet to see anything by him I don't like and he's certainly my favourite writer working in television at the moment. I'm a Dr Who fan stretching back nearly 40 years. I think the revived show is fabulous. I can't choose between the two seasons. I think they are both wonderful and each has its own unique flavour, much as I equally like different doctors from the past - Jon Pertwee, Sylvester McCoy, etc.

I was starting to be in two minds about Torchwood until I read an interview with RTD in one of the Sunday newspapers this past weekend. My interest and anticipation is restored.

alien lanes | October 17, 23:27 CET

Ooh, couldn't disagree more mjwilson, I think Extras series 2 is better than 1 personally (though the last one - ep 5 ? - wasn't great, IMO). I think he's pushing themes and ideas more this series and the show's benefited from it. Each to their own, of course ;).

Re: Doctor Who, to me S2/28 did have more kiddy elements to it, and it was patchier, IMO, but I think the best S2 episodes were every bit as good as (and maybe better than) the best of S1. 'The Girl in the Fireplace' could be my favourite of the new shows (Moffat hits another six) but 'Tooth and Claw', 'School Reunion' and 'Love and Monsters' were also brilliant and 'Fear Her' and 'Doomsday' were both largely excellent but with a few very dodgy bits, IMO.

I hope 'Torchwood' can hold a candle (ahem ;) to Angel but I must confess I don't think Russell Davies can to Joss. Not yet anyway.

Saje | October 17, 23:46 CET

Regarding the treatment of women in Season 2. I have to say I'm with Mort and Zeitgeist on this, although I have to admit I haven't seen all of the eps. I'd say it isn't a matter of treating women badly, I'd say it's treating characters, that just happened to be played by women, in a certain way. I think if you looked at the old series eps, you'd see similar character types treated in the same way by the Doctor, but they were played by men.

It's just the equal opportunity fate of non-cooperation with the Doctor.

Oh, and on topic, really like what I've seen of Davies, but he hasn't achieved Jossness.

Znachki | October 18, 00:07 CET

Yeah, just to reiterate - Saje lists my fave eps, and really, I did enjoy the heck out of S2 for the most part. Its just the Cyber and Satan two-parters that struck me as 'meh'. Znachki brings up a good point in that there are only so many evil/dead women because Russell writes more female characters than have ever been in the show. I would also like to reiterate that Steven Moffat is one of my heroes - he already was for Coupling(UK) and then to follow that up with 'The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances' and 'The Girl in the Fireplace'? BRILLIANT.

zeitgeist | October 18, 00:12 CET

Caroline: "Whedonesque II - The Heretic has a nice ring to it."

I'm so in -- not 'cause of the RTD-thing, but just on general heretical principles. Listen *cue music* I took an oath when I joined the International Brotherhood for the Advancement of Heresy to commit heresy in either three or four ways and I need to get on that.

Heresy doesn't commit itself, ya know, people.

And looking forward to Extras Season Two making its way over here to the States. I've never Who'd, so I dunno What.

QuoterGal | October 18, 00:15 CET

I love Joss' work, I reckon he's an absolutely fantastic writer, and his shows rank numbers 1,2 and 3 in my all time favorites.

But...

Joss has never had thousands of Daleks rolling around in any of his shows, and since Doctor Who came back thats become one of the things I judge the greatness of a TV show on.

In terms of writing, no, Russel hasn't yet reached Joss' level, maybe he will (Steven Moffat is much closer IMO) but it doesn't stop the show from being damn enjoyable.

Really looking forward to Torchwood should fill the gap between here and the next episode of Doctor Who at Christmas quite nicely.

Oh, and I hate, hate Ricky Gervais, not a personal attack or anything, I just cannot stand the guy and I'm really not sure why. Disliked The Office (though love the US version) and haven't seen Extras (though some bits I've heard about sound very funny, might have to try and make myself watch it at some point).

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2006-10-17 22:24 ]

Ghost Spike | October 18, 00:22 CET

Two episodes this Sunday btw. Repeated on BBC2 on Wednesday.
Simon | October 17, 20:50 CET

Oh Simon I could kiss you for this information. In fact I think I will. *MWAH* They just don't consider us poor non-digital having people. Three days I have to wait. Three days! *sobs*

[ edited by lynnie on 2006-10-17 22:43 ]

lynnie | October 18, 00:43 CET

I'm gonna mwah Simon too. *MWAH*
Fun!
I would never have bothered with Torchwood, because I'm also digi-less (?) and would have to break-in next door to watch it. They don't like me doing that anymore.
But now! Now I don't have to break in anywhere!

lone fashionable wolf | October 18, 00:58 CET

TorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwoodTorchwood

Someone PLEASE tell me they're airing it in the States sometime soon. Or else I might just die.

BrightShiner | October 18, 01:12 CET

Bear in mind that our US cousins haven't seen some of the Doctor Who episodes from season 2 so if you are referring to events, be nice and use the invisible text thing.

Simon | October 18, 01:33 CET

Well, some of the US cousins have :P And will see Torchwood soon after it airs, but yeah, its true that most will be watching the Sci-Fi airings.

zeitgeist | October 18, 05:20 CET

Yeah, what Simon and zeitgeist said. I'm watching the Doctor on Sci-Fi (I didn't think I'd be happy with anyone but Christopher Eccleston, but Mr. Tennant is great!), and I'm impatiently waiting for Torchwood. So, please, if possible, no spoilers for anything past the ASH ep of Doctor Who, which just played Sci-Fi this week -- thanks, all! And, enjoy Torchwood, all you lucky UK folks (and zeitgeist, hmmm) about to see it! ;-)

billz | October 18, 10:48 CET

One of the SFX reviewers said that Torchwood's Cardiff feels a bit like Angel's L.A.

TaraLivesOn | October 18, 10:54 CET

Cardiff, Los Angeles same difference :-)

More seriously, does anyone know when Torchwood will hit the US?? Speaking of UK sci-fi shows....I think Life on Mars is brilliant for many reasons. I know they are making a US version of that show and I am dredding that. Like my Brazilian friend said ""Why, they speak English in the US".... (edited for spelling)

[ edited by Jonas on 2006-10-18 16:16 ]

Jonas | October 18, 16:39 CET

There is no plan for Torchwood to hit the US as of yet. If it does well, SciFi may add it next year. I adore Life on Mars as well and I am terrified at the prospect of a US version of it. Looking back, I was very repeat-y in this thread, sorry about that. billz, my email is in my profile, drop me a line, if you get a chance.

zeitgeist | October 18, 17:53 CET

Adding to the Life on Mars (Yay, BBC America) love and hoping that both the second series of it--and Torchwood--will air in the U.S. And how great was seeing Sarah Jane Smith again?

narnia | October 18, 23:47 CET

October 17 2006