This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"You got a real addiction to the brooding part of life, did anyone ever tell ya that?"
11981 members | you are not logged in | 27 May 2018


November 05 2006

The Clicker examines great TV romances. "If there's one thing that can carry a show for years, it's a good will-they-wont-they romance." (Spike/Buffy and Logan/Veronica among others are discussed)


On the topic of relationships though, I don't think any one can carry the show. Because once they get together there is often the stupidity that it will get to boring with them happy that they must be broken up over and over. And with each time getting more absurd. Then the love intrest for each starts to climb, and people forget who they are rooting for. Happy is something that real and can exsist even in tv land. I think that is saddest normalacy. I loved Sid and Vaghn. Or Lois and Clark, but come on. Sometimes domestic life in the hands of the right writer can be just as entertaining as splitting them up.

I think this is why I fear Bones and Booth getting together. Then the whole show starts revolving around that. The unique spark is lost. Then you can start counting down to the often predictable reason for the inevitable split. I also think it would be very refreshing for someone to remember that in the real world, men and women can work, live and flirt and still remain friends.

[ edited by Donna Troy on 2006-11-06 04:24 ]

[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:15 ]
I've been staying away from these list links (there's been quite a few this weekend, like worst eps, etc.) because they rely so much on an individual's preference or interpretation. So, props to everyone's lists, really, but I think I'll sit these out (too much homework, anyway). ;-)
I think MOONLIGHTING showed that when many fans are collectively shipping a couple, that putting a couple together can be the death of the show. Now everyone likes to keep it frustrating. <----edited---->

As for BONES, I don't see Booth and Bones getting together soon. (at least David gives that impression in interviews)

[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:16 ]
I don't see them getting together for a while either. Thank God.

They are a couple that I could see being as good friends as they would be lovers. Now I will admit the last scene of last weeks ep had me wishing for them to kiss, but after seeing how the Angela/Hodge thing was handled, I can easily refrain from wanting that too.

It also reminds me of the current situation with BSG. The creator said they want to put Starbuck and Apollo together, but that would make them boring. He says they are the end game but that they for now have to be split up. So you have them dancing around each other. Though, I will admit I eagerly suck up every scene with them in it....for now. But I don't think people turn in only for the romances and in the end those can be the very least appealing of the entire show, because of all the drama.

[ edited by Donna Troy on 2006-11-06 04:10 ]
I agree you can't put Temperence and Seeley together, although it may be for different reasons than why Angela and Jack had to call it quits before it even started. Besides, what if the Squints figure out Seeley and Cam have had sex. That nay make things really bad, too.
I think all the Squints sans Zack KNOW that Booth and Cam are or were having sex. They seem to be getting a big kick out of it. I evne think, at least form my veiw, that Bones knew or suspected it by the end of the episode. That was why she was so happy he cancelled his"meeting".
I'm a huge Buffy/Spike fan. It's the only fictional couple I ever really shipped. I also respect and understand the importance of the Buffy/Angel story to the Verse. I always say Buffy/Angel was a great romance and Buffy/Spike was a great love story.

For the record, I also enjoyed Buffy/Riley and was disappointed Buffy/Owen went nowhere. And hey, I'm open to Buffy/Xander.


[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:16 ]
Don't forget to Faith/Buffy! Give a a girl a chance! LOL!
I've really never gotten too partisan about TV relationships -- they either interest me, or they don't, or I think one or both of them are attractive, or I don't.

Though I liked Friends for a few years for a few reasons (mainly Phoebe and pre-Monica-Chandler), I was "Bored, now" with the Rachel/Ross thing beyond the first few turns.

But "we were on a break" can still get a laugh around our house, if used sparingly.

I watched "Smashed" with my 80-year-old mother (sheesh) and she kept saying things like "Well, are they all lesbians?" and then "Why is the house falling down?" It was creepier than I can possibly convey.

But I agree with you on Monica and Chandler. They could have carried the show on their own. It totally worked and continued to be interesting. Rachel and Ross, not so much. The will they/won't they actually became predictable.

And I still say once again that it wasn't Dave and Maddie getting together that screwed it up, but Maddie running off and marrying a stranger. That was just awful.

[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:17 ]
LOL, Quoter Girl. That reminds me of the time I was watching the scene the sex scene with Faith and Pricipal McHottie with my dad. It was a tad uncomfortable.

In Smashed, I was laughing because at one point Buffy was in a skirt and then the next part she was in pants and it was obvious and I could not get past that.

I am sure there are fans who do see them as that, just as you and I know there are many, many that do not. Hell, nowadays this fandom is more NON-shippers then shippers anyways. Personal taste and all that. Nothing wrong there. Just because an author of an article says so does not make something so. No mater what side they support. Especially when they can't support their claim like this artcle has a hard time doing.

[ edited by Donna Troy on 2006-11-06 06:04 ]
"In Smashed, I was laughing because at one point Buffy was in a skirt and then the next part she was in pants and it was obvious and I could not get past that."

When was she in pants? I grokked the long leather skirt the whole way through.
<-----edited-----> Buffy/Spike was an interesting road to travel (for the viewer and, I presume, for the writers and actors) once Angel left for his own spinoff. Of course, none can compare to the for-the-ages love between Turk and J.D. over on "Scrubs."

[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:17 ]
She wasn't. Thats the point. Yet, when they are trying to show the stand up sex, she clearly is in one of the scenes and they are up while he is doing the thrusting action. It just made me laugh.
I must be one of a rare breed...

I have never liked the "bickering couple" cliche. I hated David/Maddie getting together - loved their snarky friendship though - because it was so obvious they couldn't/wouldn't work out. WAY too different.

Same with Sam/Diane. Completely NOT compatible and was happy when that was ended too.


I loved Ross/Rachel AND Monica/Chandler and was thrilled when these couples worked out in the end. That's always been my favorite kind of couple - the kind that starts out and stays friends while also being completely in love. (A big reason I was drawn to Buffy/Angel, because I believe they are friends as well as two people deeply in love.)

Sometimes this will obviously not work out....for example, my favorite Harry Potter "couple" is Harry/Hermione but it seems clear that JKR is going the cliched route of the arguing/bickering/mean-to-each-other-so-it-must-be-love-though-they-have-nothing-in-common Ron/Hermione. I don't pretend to understand that though.

I don't get arguing as a form of sexual tension (especially when it's in the form of insults, etc), I don't think people being mean to each other is sexy or romantic...I'm just not able to get that.

And I am finally really loving Booth/Bones - it took me a while to warm up to them, but this last episode sealed the deal for me. And again, they start off as friends and build that solid friendship before anything sexual/romantic happens. So I'm game for watching their slowly unfolding relationship.

[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:18 ]
I think the "will they/won't they" Buffy/Spike relationship is more about the final season than the earlier ones. Don't get me wrong, there was sexual tension like crazy in earlier seasons, but by season 7 Buffy and Spike had a history. One of the reasons they could never be together was that he didn't have a soul, so when he had the soul there was always that "will they" aspect.

As for bickering, I think it's just a way to show that "opposites attract." I think some of the most interesting relationships (on TV and in real life) are those where the couples have little in common.
Oops, I forgot one of my favourite couples: Wash & ZoŽ. One of the few couples that worked out that I really found interesting: tension from being different and happy compatability. Best TV couple. Though their movie relationship was less... happy.
As for bickering, I think it's just a way to show that "opposites attract." I think some of the most interesting relationships (on TV and in real life) are those where the couples have little in common.

Oh, I don't disagree that the "opposites attract" theory can work beautifully. I don't think that means they HAVE to be a bickering couple.


That's the difference for me. "Bickering" vs "opposites". Heck, could Booth/Bones be more different? Cause I don't think so....but I love them. They aren't MEAN to each other.

Hopefully, that makes my viewpoint make more sense.

And interesting idea that the "will they/won't they" issue applied more to Buffy/Spike in season 7....because you're not wrong, really. There was nothing stopping them from becoming a romantic couple had that been what the writers intended. But they were telling a story of building trust and friendship rather than romantic love - and that worked better for Spike (and for Buffy) in the end anyway.

[ edited by love4ba on 2006-11-06 07:09 ]

[ edited by Simon on 2006-11-06 12:18 ]
I've never been Harry/Hermione, simply because I like the fact that a guy and a girl can be friends, through their teenage years, and not have any sexual feelings.

I also really liked the Buffy/Spike relationship-- at least the unhealthy one-- because it was so well done.

I have to throw in Kira/Odo as the definition of what that article talks about. When I started reading it, that's what I immediately thought about. And Daphne/Niles. I think the hard thing is keeping the show interesting after the two get together.

One thing I think I remember about Firefly is that Fox wanted Wash and Zoe not to be married, and Joss insisted, avoiding the cliche and starting after it. He has the ability to go farther than just the first kiss and make it interesting.
I've never been Harry/Hermione, simply because I like the fact that a guy and a girl can be friends, through their teenage years, and not have any sexual feelings.

Oh, I've treasured their friendship relationship, that's for sure. One of the few teenage relationships I think JKR has done well! I just think that all of the setup of their friendship would lead naturally and beautifully into the next stage - a romantic one.

I don't like her handling of Ron/Hermione - they have gotten WORSE with each other as they've grown older when I think they should be maturing and getting better - and I think Harry/Ginny was so shallow and out of the blue that I was just amazed I was even reading about it.

That said, I think if JKR had gone a different route, she could have shown a boy and girl in a friendship without sexual feelings through Ron/Hermione. Of course, thus far, I've not seen sexual feelings from them towards each other anyway but it's clearly what she thinks she's showing. Oh well...

I should stop hijacking this thread with HP talk!
The only TV romance I have actively supported outside of the Buffyverse is (excluding the fanon Lucas/Marshall ship for Strange Days at Blake Holsey High/Black Hole High--which is really like Buffy mated with X-Files by way of science instead of magic, aimed at early teen and it's very good)...

John Chriton and Aeryn Sun. The least that article could have done was given it a quick mention. But, I didn't really like the article anyway.

And I can't be only one who found Oz/Willow a much more interesting romance (courtship, evolution, disollution) , if you look past the Buffy/Angel chemistry, can I?
The one that interested me most was Odo/Kira on DS9. I think the reason might be, that DS9 is the first series I followed.
I agree Spike/Buffy has been worked out extremely well, especially up to season 6.
Oh, and I liked the Wes/Fred relation as well.
didn't anyone recognize the sexual tension between river and jayne (I can kill you with my brain!)? that's an opposite attract! and all the mean bickering!
andrew and xander? "you touched my babylon 5 memory plates?"
and of course: spike and angel!
Various posts have been edited per our shipping rules, I'm not going to be as lenient next time.
Here's a few more:

Jaye/Eric on Wonderfalls
Lindsay/Nick on Freaks and Geeks
Steven/Lizzie on Undeclared
Seth/Alma on Deadwood
Kate/Sawyer on Lost
Fryrish, Kate/Sawyer are a good one. SPOILERS for overseas (Maybe??)....Don't look any further but... in the previous episode, she said she loved him but he was getting beat to death. Then she took it back. ;)

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-11-06 14:30 ]
Nicely edited Simon. The discussion still flows. Although we have had this very discussion not long ago, methinks.
And he should have included Wash/Zoe as one of the great couples on TV. No need for "Will they, won't they" tension.
Just for clarification, what ARE the "shipping rules?" thanks to the skill of your editing, I was unable to tease out what had been done that was verboten.
They can be found here.
BTVS and AtS contained so many great romances ... shame that they were almost exclusively doomed but that's Joss For ya :)

In my time I've sobbed over Buffy/Angel, Giles/Jenny, Willow/ Oz, Willow /Tara Xander/ Cordelia , Angel/ Cordelia, Wes/ Fred and indeed Buffy/Spike

Good grief Seven Seasons of Buffy, Five of Angel ... wouldn't you think that someone, somewhere, sometime would catch a break ? But nope, first hint of a happy and all hell breaks loose ;)

Still it's good to see the shows still getting media attention and these things are always subjective . As subjective as the " best and worst" discussions going on elsewhere on the board.

Meanwhile I comfort myself with hoping that somewhere out there Faith and Wood are making a go of things .

[ edited by debw on 2006-11-06 17:31 ]
wouldn't you think that someone, somewhere, sometime would catch a break ?

Riley and Sam.
Riley and Sam.


Yep, Ok I'll give you that , and I suppose Willow and Kennedy :)
Yes, but there is that rumor that Sam was actually a bot...
I always thought the beauty of the spuffy story(and all the other ships) was how they took the standard romance cliches and made them stand for something else, something deeper. Something about Buffy.

I loved all the various ships.(Given enough time the ships, even the non Buffy ones seemed to matter deeply....Faith and Wood may be my favorite one we never saw explored because I believe it said a lot about the change in the slayer line)

But spuffy was almost non shippy in it's rampant shippiness, it really was about exploring Buffy's relationship with what she was all about coming to terms and acceptance with being the Slayer and trusting herself enough to make it her own. The will she won't she/bickering couple became a model for Buffy's last step towards becoming her own person. Sexual monsters became friends and proponents, instincts became something to trust, the enemy was self recrimination and doubt and in the end, the smell of cookies was devine. Buffy's proclamation of love was as much about herself as Spike.

When last we saw Buffy she was as far from the season 2 girl boarding a bus as possible. No guilt, no regrets, she was just a slayer living in the world as she should.

This thread has been closed for new comments.

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.

joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home