Hmm, not too sure what to make of this. I thought the show was doing quite well, particularly since it got 20 episodes ordered when it could've stayed at 13.

I think it's still a little too early to predict if there will be a fourth season or not.

Thomas | November 18, 13:02 CET

It must be a nightmare for the writers if they've got plot arcs planned and then find out they've got to lose 2 episodes from the overall story.

Out of interest, how is The CW comparing rating wise to UPN and The WB?

Simon | November 18, 13:44 CET

Ask and you will get it if people feel like helping you out...well thats close enough anyway.

Apparently not so good Simon. That was a story over a week ago, but its good enough.

ETA: Apparently, grammar is not my friend tonight.

[ edited by jerryst3161 on 2006-11-18 12:32 ]

jerryst3161 | November 18, 14:31 CET

Why must they torment us so?
Yes, let's get rid of the smart, well-written drama in favor of a Dancing With the Stars rehash.

xdmag | November 18, 14:32 CET

We should make a "Wacht Veronica Mars" campaign now that we can, instead of wait until it's to late.

Este | November 18, 14:41 CET

Hmmmmm... dammit. You sure that they can't get those last two episodes aswell? I hate corporate pencil pushers, they all about the bottom line and can't sense the bigger picture. We're talking about two episodes here dammit, and you're a brand new trademark. You don't wanna piss off the fans you have.

Djungelurban | November 18, 14:45 CET

Djungelurban, I don't think Veronica Mars fans should be pissed off over being deprived the final two episodes of the season -- for a show in its third year getting the ratings it's been getting, I'm (pleasantly) surprised that the CW are sticking with it at all.

[ edited by Jackal on 2006-11-18 12:59 ]

Jackal | November 18, 14:54 CET

I think this is more about saving money than losing interest in the show. If CW really didn't think it could do well in the second half of the season, why would they bother picking it up for 7 more episodes. One Tree Hill also gets a shorter season, although why 7th Heaven got its back 9 picked up I'll never understand.

I don't think this means the network no longer believes in the show. It would be crazy, IMO, to cancel VM after this season with Gilmore Girls and 7th Heaven likely ending soon. The network is hurting and desperately needs some established shows for it's 2nd year. Cancelling VM would leave it with barely anything to launch a new season with.

Just my thoughts.

electricspacegirl | November 18, 16:00 CET

It sucks to be Whedon this year, as VM's ratings haven't been great, and Battlestar keeps going down and down in the ratings this season.

It also sucks to be me.

I've gotta be honest, as Jackal says, it wasn't certain they would pick up to episode 20 - to me, it looked likely they were going to bin it mid season.

Simon - here's a textbook of what to do when your story arc goes wrong - go to Pylea! Angel Season 2 was supposed to be all about Darla and Angel, but Julie Benz left (to do Taken, I think, but could be wrong), so we went to Pylea instead. I love those episodes, though - Angel in the sun, Angel with a mirror, and - hey - Acker.

gossi | November 18, 16:56 CET

BSG's ratings may have slipped some, but I have little doubt that it will get a another season. It is still one of Sci-fi's biggest draws.

As for Mars her life may well be determined on what is out here for next season's new shows. I were the CW I would be looking to talk to NBC if they decided to let go of FNL. It would be a perfect fit for the net and maybe a good lead in companion for VM.

Donna Troy | November 18, 17:05 CET

Donna, BSG might be one of sci-fi's biggest draws, but it's also their most expensive show by far.

That said, Universal had better renew it - it's one of the best shows on the air at the moment.

gossi | November 18, 18:29 CET

VM has been not great so far this year, besides Keith's storyline which has been rocking hard!! Granted this weeks ep was a lot stronger, it still was beginging to look like an epiosde of the OC with V staying over at Wallace's flatmate. I miss V being cranky, yes there has been a few good points, but so far, its been the weakest season yet. Like I said, Kieth's storylines have been fantastic.

Now, when I compare it to NBC Heroes, which...is frankly rocking my world right now! VM is just not cutting it, and I have been a staunch fan too.

nixygirl | November 18, 19:10 CET

Wow, I completely disagree, nixy. I think V has been extra cranky this year, and that this season has been fantastic, and all about challenging Veronica's bleak perception of the world, and the people in it. She is pushing people away and making enemies left and right, and she's headed for a fall.

The question becomes, does she change or doesn't she? I'm nervous and excited all at the same time.

And, while I enjoy "Heroes," to me it lacks something I just can't put my finger on.

ETA: And if VM was going to go OC, something would've happened while she was staying in that dorm room. Nothing did.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2006-11-18 17:28 ]

pat32082 | November 18, 19:19 CET

Isn't this kind of good news? Last I heard it was only going to be 13 episodes minimum and then they would decide whether to order a full season or not. And 20 episodes is almost a full season. Maybe it's not a sure thing that it will get picked up for next season, but at least we will get a substantial third season that does justice to the show, even if it did turn out to be the last.

It is disappointing that more people won't watch the show and I do hope The CW stick with it. I think when you watch something like Veronica Mars the quality is just so much better than with a lot of shows out there, and I'm including "adult" shows in that too. I think if the executives were more selective about the quality of their shows rather than judging audience figures to be the most important thing, then they could really nuture a lot of shows to become attractive to larger audiences. I think something like VM could become at least as successful as Buffy was if given enough postitive advertising. And we know Buffy was never a huge ratings winner but it managed to appeal to the demographics that the networks wanted at the time.

Razor | November 18, 19:20 CET

I hate corporate pencil pushers, they all about the bottom line and can't sense the bigger picture.

Er, the bottom line is the bigger picture. TV networks aren't in business to please their fanbase, they're in business to make money. The CW is not a public service, it's a business.

And hey, they are picking it up for more episodes rather than cancelling it, despite the ratings not being as great as they'd like. Of course, it doesn't help that it's up against House. Putting two of the smartest, funniest shows on network television against each other was probably an unwise move....

krad | November 18, 19:20 CET

VM is disappointing me this year as well. I still think it is one of the best shows on but it's not involving me as much. Although, Keith's storyline is great and I'm enjoying what little we see of Wallace.
pat32082, what I think Heroes is missing is Joss. It is a good show, the characterizations are beginning to evolve, the plot is tight but yeah, it isn't a Joss show.

Lioness | November 18, 19:42 CET

Wel...ya have a point there. However, the fact that it was set up like that, annoyed the shit out of me! Facts are, it is just seeming to me a little contrived this year, which is unfortunate, because it is one of my favourite shows.

Heroes, yea...it may not have Joss, but it does have Bryan Fuller and Jeph Loeb!!

nixygirl | November 18, 19:55 CET

I agree with krad -- this isn't a cancellation, so yay VM! I'm enjoying Wallace's story a lot this year, because that also happens to be my life story at the moment! (D'oh!) I also agree with nixygirl on the rockingness of Keith's story, and although I'm not liking this season as much as previous (why isn't VM spending every minute looking for or thinking about the rapist, esp. after she walked in during the middle of one of the rapes and felt terrible she didn't know/couldn't help?), there's still lots of Veronica-y goodness to be had. It's certainly better TV than skanky, er, skinny aspiring models crying because Tyra was cross with them. ;-)

billz | November 18, 19:58 CET

VM season 1 > VM season 2 > VM season 3 (thus far, anyway).

The law of diminishing returns is killin' this show, and as much as it pains me to say it, maybe it would be better to end it now while it will still be remembered as a brilliant, inventive series (and before the CW tinkers with it even more).

rbt | November 18, 20:01 CET

Speak for yourself, bob, VM is still one of my favorite shows on right now. I may not be as on the edge of my seat as I was with the first season, but I would watch this season over almost everything else on the air right now.

I would be devastated if it is pulled from the CW next year. I do agree with ESG. I think it will stick around because GG will probably go bye-bye. They need to keep around some girl powery goodness. And maybe next year they *won't* put it up against House. Definitely not a good move.

Harmalicious | November 18, 20:25 CET

Hmm... we will have to wait til the end, but I think season 3 may be better than 2. Of course nothing comes close to season 1.

I am very glad to hear of its renewal. Yeah, the quality is going down, but maybe it will get better... in any case, it's still better than most TV right now.

Also, it's only doing a little worse than One Tree Hill. I think OTH gets about 3.5 million viewers and VM gets 3.3... something like that. And OTH is one of their more popular shows. So I don't think it's doing so badly.

fortunateizzi | November 18, 20:59 CET

Donna troy, I had a similar thought about FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS. I think it would be a good fit on the CW.

(MY SO CALLED LIFE should have been rescued by someone)

spikeylover | November 18, 21:12 CET

I think it is too bad to hold Veronica's ratings against her, she is having to go head to head with House (I'm still mad that they moved that to the 9 pm slot, it was so much better when it was on before Veronica).

I am really sorry they are cutting it short, I hope it doesn't ruin Rob's story arc!

embers | November 18, 21:38 CET

The reason they may have got a back order for the season is that it is doing ok in the female demo. However, it is still losing over 35% of the Gilmore Girls audience and that is not good. So far the ratings are not increasing and for the most part seem to be dropping from week to week, not by much but still not a good sign. Plus I don't think CW has anything setup to go at the mid-season mark, with AI coming back in January and will may end up against I don't think CW wants to risk losing a potential new show against that competition. CW took a gamble and it has not paid off, I think next season we will see more new shows on the CW than shows from the old WB or UPN.

I wonder if anyone there at the CW can find Joss Whedon's number after all he helped build the younger viewer demo for the WB.

RavenU | November 18, 21:45 CET

I'm not surprised that House got moved back to 9pm. 8pm is still the so-called "family hour," and House is pretty gory....

And RavenU, it's not a question of having Joss's number, it's a question of convincing him to go back to TV. *grin*

krad | November 18, 22:29 CET

Yep, exploding eyes and testicles qualify as gory in my book ('The Mammoth Book of Flowers, Puppies and Emphatically Non-Gory Stuff'). I didn't realise it was against 'House' in the US either, that's just bloody bananas. 'House' is (deservedly) a ratings juggernaut and don't they usually pair it with 'American Idol' when that comes on ? So VM will have to move to have any hope.

S3 is starting to feel a bit patchier to me and a few characters have made extremely stupid moves (apparently) solely to progress the plot which isn't usually a good sign. I'm still hoping there's an elaborate, inter-connected, multi-layered mystery in there like we had in S1 but my faith is starting to slip a bit.

That said, as with Buffy, patchy VM is still better than 95% of the rest of TV so I hope they pull it back and I also hope The CW give them a fourth season (but more importantly I hope they let Rob Thomas know one way or the other in plenty of time - couldn't stand it ending on a cliff-hanger or with no resolution whatsoever).

Saje | November 18, 23:07 CET

VM feels a little formless, reach-y, uncongealed this season - but so did season 4 of Buffy under the same moving-to-college circumstances. I'm still enjoying it more than anything but BSG and it's more than earned my patience.

Folks, there's a Joss post on the thread above. Wakey wakey.

dreamlogic | November 18, 23:36 CET

VM season 1 > VM season 2 > VM season 3 (thus far, anyway).

The law of diminishing returns is killin' this show, and as much as it pains me to say it, maybe it would be better to end it now while it will still be remembered as a brilliant, inventive series (and before the CW tinkers with it even more).

bobtaylor | November 18, 18:01 CET"

I completely agree. Actually, I've been wondering about this. What have you guys heard as far as the CW messing with the show? I've heard this accusation tossed around, but don't know anything specific. It does seem like a different show to me this season.

Celluloid Novelist | November 19, 00:33 CET

I've gotta say, I honestly and sincerely don't understand why people think it's so "different." And I'm not being a fanboy, really. It's still witty and hard boiled, and the MoTW still have the same, niggling little issues they've always had, but at least this season they're paralleling the main characters' stories more.

It took me a few episodes to catch on to what they were doing, but it seems like Rob knows exactly where he's going with Veronica as a character (and I said it above), plus he's given Keith and Wallace nice storylines. Piz and Parker are both pleasant editions to the universe, as is Ed Begley's Dean O'Dell.

So I wouldn't call the season formless or of lower quality at all. No, the rape mystery isn't as involving as the murder of Lilly Kane, and nothing ever will be, due in large part to Amanda Seyfried's performance. I still want to know who the rapist is, and I want to know what the next two mysteries will be, but the mystery isn't driving (and I said this on the .org) the show this season--the characters are. Which I think is great.

And everything we know about Veronica, have watched and seen for the past two years, is coming up to bite her. She's becoming her own worst enemy, and I can't believe people aren't more excited to see how that plays out.

pat32082 | November 19, 00:57 CET

The decision to go to 20 eps rather than 22 is he surest proof there is that the program will not be renewed next season. I now everyone will say, but hey, they did not have to give it more eps at all. No, they did not, but that is the case only if they have somethind ready to replace it. The extra eps allows Rob Thomas to close out the series and tie up all the loose ends.

"Wow, I completely disagree, nixy. I think V has been extra cranky this year, and that this season has been fantastic, and all about challenging Veronica's bleak perception of the world, and the people in it. She is pushing people away and making enemies left and right, and she's headed for a fall."

See, this is the problem, though, especially for new viewers who don't know her history. She has been cranky, she is pushing people away, she has been jumping to snap and wrong decisions left and right, and the people around her are also making significant errors- Keith nearly having an affair, Wallace cheating, Logan still in all sorts of trouble. It has not been fun to watch at all, and the mystery needs resolution already. Plus, Fitzgerlads? Meh.

Dana5140 | November 19, 01:52 CET

Well, I agree with both bobtaylor and Saje -- even though 1 was > 2 which was > 3 so far, 3 is still > most of the crap on TV, esp. most of the crap on The CW. (I'm saying that as a boy person who doesn't watch Gilmore Girls; who knows, it might be good.)

billz | November 19, 01:55 CET

I don't see that as bad viewing, though. I see that as people making mistakes and being human. Which to me, is interesting. I have fun watching it. *shrug*

[ edited by pat32082 on 2006-11-19 00:09 ]

pat32082 | November 19, 01:57 CET

The decision to go to 20 eps rather than 22 is he surest proof there is that the program will not be renewed next season.

No, it's just proof that the CW is having financial problems. The CW could've just keep this season's production order at 13. I think it's way too early to predict whether or not it'll be picked up for a fourth season.

Invisible Green | November 19, 05:28 CET

Judging by what that article jerryst3161 linked to way up the thread, The CW haven't exactly had a brilliant innings. Should have kept Everwood.

Simon | November 19, 05:43 CET

I agree. The only way this show can even touch the emotional resonance of the first season is if something really tragic happens, like Mac dying or Logan going evil and betraying her, or Lianne coming back with a secret and getting slain in an alley before V finds out what it is and then has to investigate her death and what she was hiding. Yeah, I've thought about this a lot.

The thing is, for what Veronica Mars is, a teenage detective drama, it does an awesome job. I actually like the stand-alone episodic mysteries, especially when they affect the emotional arc of the season. The last episode did that to amazing degrees, reminding me of the kind of stuff they did in season one.

It kind of reminded me of Buffy too. The way that show used the monster of the week as a metaphor. If this show could do more of that kind of thing with their mysteries, it can only get stronger, AND at the same time discover the powerful plot twists that stem from them.

In my opinion, this show has so much potential to be awesome again, to hit emotional depths that good fiction can. It only needs time to get there. This whole season has been a new start, a building up to some great character development. I just sit back and watch and let it take me for that ride. I'm loving it.



Yeah. I've been thinking about that a lot lately (probably because I just finished the first season of Everwood on DVD). If Everwood were still on the air, I bet you anything the ratings for the shows on the network would be higher. Plus, with 7th Heaven probably ending soon, and Runaway being cancelled (the pick-up for which, according to CW, was why Everwood was cancelled), there is alot of room for where Everwood could be. And I bet a lot of the fans boycotted CW this season out of spite. Renewing 7th and cancelling Everwood was a huge and hopefully embarassing decision. I hope they learned their lesson.

ETA: I also wanted to add that reducing VM's season does not mean that the network won't renew it. Case in point: Last season the O.C. was trimmed back but it's still on this year. That didn't happen for Arrested Development (RIP), but it does happen. It can happen for Veronica. Veronica Season Four, bring it!

[ edited by ElectricSpaceGirl on 2006-11-19 10:13 ]

electricspacegirl | November 19, 05:59 CET

Nice to know I'm not alone, ESG. ;-)

pat32082 | November 19, 06:05 CET

It's funny, this season of Veronica Mars is reminding me a lot of Season 5 of Angel. The first lot of episodes weren't the best, they seemed to be trying too hard to get new viewers and suffered greatly because of this, missing come key things that made the show what it was, but slowly the darkness and greatness crept back in.

Only, this time, instead of taking 11 episodes, it's taken 4. Hurray!

Of course this season won't be as good as the first. No season of Veronica Mars will be as good as the first (unless they do something crazy in the fourth season like kill Lianne or Wallace or something, making it incredibly personal). Lilly Kane was clearly the most important thing in Veronica's life who wasn't family. I'd say her friendships importance placed higher on the list than her relationship with Duncan or any boy. Veronica won't get that kind of involvement with a mystery again, sadly.

Well. Probably not.

Gouki | November 19, 07:49 CET

Okay, with all the comments about the great arc concerning Keith, I have to put this out there. Apparently I'm the only one, but I think the current Keith romance storyline is lame and banal -- wow, an affair with a married woman - how did they come up with that original plot twist! And the big scene in the hotel after the car crash came off as incredibly B-movie to me.

As a romances go, I thought his relationship with the school counselor was for and away more genuine than anything since - and given the chemistry between them, and the fact that he broke it off with her solely because Veronica wasn't "ready" why hasn't he made any more effort to see her again. And what about Alissa who he was so crazy about the first two seasons? Sure he had cause to be upset with her about keeping the secret of Wallace's father, but she also had a legitimate reason for doing that, and given how passionate he was supposed to have been about her, we should have seen more of the ending and fallout from it.

I see Keith's romances as being thrown into the works strictly as plots points, rather than organic developments of his character.

Comments?

barboo | November 19, 08:59 CET

I think someone earlier in the thread said the actress was pregnant, and didn't want to return.

Also, the break up with Alissa was on her side, she broke it off because he went through her personal papers, and she felt he invaded her privacy - which he did.

I know the 'married woman' idea is not the greatest, but the chemisty between these two actors, which has spilt over from 'Just Shoot Me' where they played lovers on that for a time, has been great imo. I'm annoyed that he broke it off with her, V is an adult now, he's raised her, he deserves a life for himself. I don't think it'll be the last we see of this relationship.

nixygirl | November 19, 09:51 CET

I know the 'married woman' idea is not the greatest, but the chemisty between these two actors, which has spilt over from 'Just Shoot Me' where they played lovers on that for a time, has been great imo. I'm annoyed that he broke it off with her, V is an adult now, he's raised her, he deserves a life for himself. I don't think it'll be the last we see of this relationship.

Except Veronica was 100% right. He was acting just like all those other guys and girls they've been hired to watch. And after what Lianne put them through, he should have been the last person to want that. Not only that, but Keith was Veronica's moral guide. He seemed perfect in her eyes, and nearly was in actuality as far as TV fathers go. For him to do this completely burns her, and she feels he should know better. He should. And I'm just repeating myself. The minute she breaks it off with her husband? I hope she returns and comes back to Keith.

Gouki | November 19, 10:25 CET

Keith's relationship with the married woman is very noir. It fits the show. I think they could take it to even greater noir heights, and I hope they do, because I don't necessarily think it's over either. If it just ends here I wouldn't think much of it. I thought it was an interesting character development when Keith gave into his desires and compromised Veronica's pride in him. That to me is intersting and I don't want to see it just end the way it is now. Time will tell.

[ edited by ElectricSpaceGirl on 2006-11-19 10:16 ]

electricspacegirl | November 19, 10:49 CET

Everything ElectricSpaceGirl said, I second. Also, add me to the group saying "you should have kept Everwood." I'm about as frustrated with The CW as with Fox -- and that's extremely gorram frustrated!

billz | November 19, 11:10 CET

Case in point: Last season the O.C. was trimmed back but it's still on this year.

With regards to The OC, I make a gossi!prediction that FOX will pull it off the air very shortly.

I don't think the 'full' 20 episode order is a sign they are going to pull VM, also. If they were hell bent on canceling it, they wouldn't have ordered that many more episodes. It's a play it and see move, basically.

gossi | November 19, 14:50 CET

I must give the CW a hand. From what I've seen, they're giving 'Veronica Mars' a chance.

To backtrack, the second season wasn't written very well. This season is much better. Just hope it takes effect the soonest to the.....oh, never mind.

Madhatter | November 19, 15:08 CET

With regards to The OC, I make a gossi!prediction that FOX will pull it off the air very shortly.

From your keyboard to God's(TM) ears, gossi. It would be about time.

As for Veronica Mars, I havent seen any of season three yet but I was really unimpressed with the second season so I'd have to say that I agree with those that say it might be a good thing to end the show this year whilst it is still fondly remembered. From the split opinions I have heard of season three I'd say that it might not be a good idea to go for a fourth season anyway.

Buffysmglover | November 19, 15:53 CET

I really don't pretend to understand how networks, "work" and why they do the arbitrary things they do with scheduling (see Lost, currently on three-month break), although I understand the bottom line is the almighty dollar. I hope VM keeps on going as I've been watching regularly lately. At least it's not on Fox which I'm going to be boycotting because of the O.J. Simpson interview re his book; as it is, I'm going to be missing Bones and House. Even worse is that Fox is doing Tim Minear's new show - maybe they'll grow a conscience by the time Drive airs.

Tonya J | November 19, 21:10 CET

Lost is on a 3 month break because fans got frustrated with all the repeats last year. You never knew when they were going to air a new episode or a repeat.

ABC reacted to the fans complaints and will be showing the show in blocks that don't repeat. They can only show 22-24 eps a year so they are giving new original programming (Day Break with Adam Baldwin) a shot while filming more Lost episodes.

Let's not bash a network for actually paying attention to its audience and being proactive. We want to encourage that type of behavior.

I won't try to defend Fox's OJ crap. It is indefensible.

TamaraC | November 19, 23:03 CET

I agree with Simon, the CW should have kept Everwood.

As for ratings, I did my part. I kept a television veiwing diary for the Nielsen ratings system for November 9 - 15, so I made a point to watch VM. That Logan is a cutie patootie. It's a shame that VM and House are on at the same time. I love that show too.

killinj | November 20, 01:23 CET

Sorry, Lost was not a good example - and I was not bashing the network.

Tonya J | November 20, 01:51 CET

I think we're missing Joss.

Madhatter | November 20, 02:54 CET

As unsure as I am of this,(since someone above mentioned Vm sticking around to maintain some "girl poweriness" on the CW), the CW should get into negotiations and consider a possible "Charmed" spin-off...hey, the show lasted 8 seasons, and that extremely loyal(and patient! the end of season 5 and all of 6 tried the audiences patience!) fan base, might be interested in VM. I think the CW should rerun seasons 1 and 2 of VM to try to interest new viewers. I also think that if given a 4th season they should move the show to 8, so it won't compete with "House".It doesn't surprise me that one of my favorite shows is in trouble, but there isn't much being done to appeal to new viewers.

Gio | November 20, 03:24 CET

... a Charmed spinoff..... ARRRGGGHHH what!?!?!

*dies and iz ded*

TwisTz | November 20, 03:57 CET

The only way that I could see a conceivable Charmed spinoff ever existing would be if they focused it on grownup Wyatt and Chris. Except that they already have that show (see: Supernatural, two brothers fighting supernatural forces), and what they already have is a thousand times better than any Charmed spinoff ever could be.

I've seen similar discussions elsewhere, but I think VM really shouldn't move from the 9pm slot. The show as it is is far more skewed to a later audience, and moving it to 8pm might just have too many repercussions with regards to content and what it can and cannot get away with. It's not family-friendly fare the way Gilmore Girls is, and I'd hate to see the show even further diluted just to move it one hour earlier in the schedule.

hrlo | November 20, 06:10 CET

Madhatter: "I think we're missing Joss."

Yeah, Madhatter, I think you're right.

I love VM on its own merits, and it's brought something orginal to TV - a medium that mostly exists by imitation - but in this and other TV threads I hear more than a tinge of regret and a searching for some qualities that I think haven't been much present in shows since Angel aired its final episode.

Joss has spoiled us for most other TV, by giving us shows that combine character, story and philosophy in a combo I believe we've not seen before or since. And we sound - if you'll forgive the analogy, and no reason you should - like people who know who their true love is, but keep trying to make it work with someone else because their love has left them.

Maybe I'm just being too fanciful or projecting my own feelings on this, and maybe I just need to get with the program and move on, at least with respect to TV, but I can't.

They're not Joss, they're not Joss, they're not Joss.

QuoterGal | November 20, 06:27 CET

True, Madhatter and QG. My week, when Buffy and Angel were on the air, used to revolve around the good day(s) (especially good when Buffy and Angel were on back-to-back), and sort of rise and fall in cycle. I didn't panic when Firefly was cancelled, or even when Buffy bowed out, because Angel was going strong. When Angel was cancelled, though, I sort of morphed overnight into an Internet fan. Before, I'd mostly only used it for email and work research. I came to sites like this because I needed something to replace my at-least-weekly ritual hearth. It turns out to be more than that in many ways, but it's not the same.

Tuesday is special again because it's VM day, and Saturday because that's when I download BSG from iTunes. But it's still not the same.

dreamlogic | November 20, 06:59 CET

Gio "the CW should get into negotiations and consider a possible "Charmed" spin-off...hey, the show lasted 8 seasons"

I agree, a spin off would do the network wonders imo. Ordering a pilot surely couldn't hurt.

Anyhow, I could care less that we'll be two episodes short for VM, a 20 episode season is still pretty good and enough to satisfy me. And when we're only dealing with mini-mysteries as opposed to the one big I don't think it'll effect the story much at all.

Dominus Trinus | November 20, 13:20 CET

This entire season has been very schizophrenic, I think. In general though Veronica has been characterized very nearly as a bully all season, jumping to the wrong conclusions about everything, and expecting too much of everyone around her. The problem is that none of this has been explicitly tied in to last year, as far as I'm concerned; even the rape-revelation last year has barely been used in the rape plot this year. (I think almost having her raped in the last episode was horribly pointless, made worse by the plot contrivances (hey! I'm drugged so I'm going to leave this crowded place with lots of people and show up in abandoned parking garage, 20 feet away from Logan!) used to set it up. I know she's being set up for a fall, but in a lot of ways I'm not quite sure why, or how this is consistent with the end of season two. Every time Buffy acted like a bitca, I understood where she was coming from; Veronica seems to learn the same lesson every week and reset as if nothing has been learned.

The Keith plotline showed promise, but requires us to suspend disbelief too far. Keith gets blackmailed by Vinnie, and he still doesn't realize that maybe he should end things with Harmony, or at least tell her that her husband is having them followed? Obviously their relationship is very noir, and I like that, but the setup hasn't been as organic as I would have liked, happening so quickly, and Keith flipflopping so often about its morality. I guess I just don't buy Keith being this smitten this quickly, even if the chemistry is more or less there.

Logan lately has been pretty boring, without his snark, even if that's somewhat consistent with him trying to toe Veronica's line; Wallace's cheating plotline has been bungled, almost hilariously, in my opinion; Weevil has, without real explanation, decided to reform himself and not only accept but revel in what he would perceive as a mediocre position, to the point of agreeing to be a prop in Veronica's presentation. Parker and Piz aren't bad as new additions, and the Hearst additions are starting to grow on me, but I'm not really happy with most of the cast's handling.

That said, the show has been getting better, sort of: the noir came back with the corruption in Veronica's professor (and the strangeness of his relationship with his T.A.). And Dick, Cliff and Vinnie are funny every time they appear. The sooner Tina Majorino gets back to film more Mac scenes, the better.

WilliamTheB | November 20, 20:55 CET

Another vote for:

VM Season 1 > VM Season 3 > VM Season 2

(For all values of TV greater than Charmed.)

bookrats | November 20, 21:15 CET

WilliamtheB:

It didn't connect with Veronica that she was drugged, UNTIL she was in the parking lot. GHB, as was pointed out by dreamlogic on the .Org, "Rapists use GHB because it really screws up cognition, as well as memory. It makes sense for her not to be thinking straight."

On the Wallace and Keith stories, I just disagree, and there's no way I can change your mind (especially not here), so that's that. But, I do have a theory as to why Veronica is the way she is this year. And it begins with a quote from Kristen Bell in an interview about Veronica's transition to college:

"She was wise beyond her years...But actually being a young kid and wise beyond your years is slightly different from being an adult and simply being wise."

That gets to the root of it, I think--she's left high school and become a small fish in a big, unfamiliar pond. Not knowing what to expect, she entered college ready for battle and has overdone it, striking before thinking. A mistake she's undoubtedly going to pay for.

She's continually being shown that the world isn't entirely the evil place she thinks it is this year. But she needs it to be, because she wouldn't know how to exist in it otherwise. So she's been quick to accuse and judge, hoping that the view of the world she's used to will be validated, and she'll have some degree of control. She's not being a bitch just to be a bitch, or just because the writers want her to be for plot reasons.

This has been part of her personality since the beginning, only college is exacerbating it. She acknowledges her flaws, but they're ingrained in her. She will get the big, wake-up call that will force her to learn and change, or else things aren't going to get any better for her.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2006-11-20 20:34 ]

pat32082 | November 20, 22:28 CET

Completely agree with everything you said WilliamtheB. You hit on all the points that I have been recently bitching about. I will say that Veronica's high (unrealistic) expectations of everyone is leading to a fall, a larger one than the contrived near head shaving episode last week. (I hear what you're saying pat, but I think it just doesn't ring true for most viewers who themselves have high expectations of VM being able to handle herself and "know better".) As someone who has suffered the consequences of expecting too much from those I love-it's not fun. I think VM is in for some hurt on the road ahead. I find the bitchiness "survival mechanism" interesting; but it's seemed to me that V has been warring with herself over how jaded and defensive to be -which might account for some of the uneven feel of late. Even with all of WtB's points being true, VM is still one of the best things on TV and I'm still tuning in faithfully. And I will echo the grief over the lack of Joss on our TVs, I dream of the day when he will have another show on the air (Please, please!).

onthedrift | November 20, 22:45 CET

Well, if it's unfair of Veronica to have too high expectations (and when it comes to her father and her reaction to the affair, yes, they were too high, but I don't think it's unrealistic that she would place him on a pedestal and hold him to a higher standard), isn't it unfair of us to have such high expectations of her?

She is very intelligent, but she is also just 19, and she isn't as smart or knowledgeable about everything as she likes to think (which Keith has called her on long before this season), and she finally has to face that.

We don't like to see the star of the show frustratingly being their own worst enemy (unless its House), but what everyone apparently sees as an out-of-the-blue plot contrivance, I see as natural progression of Veronica's character arc (now that Season 3's format allows an arc).

I don't normally get this wrapped up in threads, but, damn it, I really like this season.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2006-11-20 20:59 ]

pat32082 | November 20, 22:54 CET

I guess I wasn't making much sense (which is nothing new). When I spoke of unfair expectations I guess I meant from the perspective of those who they are directed to. It's completely natural for V to put her father on such a high pedestal, especially after everything they've been through. For me her reaction to his indiscretions was one of the most compelling moments I've seen. Are high expectations really unfair? They undoubtedly lead to disappointment, but is it a bad thing? I think that's the question V has to answer in the near future, is it bad thing to hold those she loves to a higher standard, and how does it affect her personally when those people don't live up to her standards. The question of how much hope and faith should we invest in those around us makes for interesting TV, because it's something we all grapple with. The situation V found herself in (being drugged) because she pushed everyone away did work for me, but the whole parking garage and Logan getting there in the very nick of time is what seemed contrived to me. I liked that the last ep's storyline dealt with the fact that V's expectations have negative consequences for herself, but wished it could have been handled in a less heavy-handed way. So although we may differ slightly pat, believe me I'm with you on the Veronica love. :)

onthedrift | November 20, 23:27 CET

I'll give you that the parking garage setup was a TV contrivance, onthedrift. Especially Logan's rescue. But, in the grand scheme of things, it didn't bother me. Meg being the only one to survive the bus crash in Season 2, being pregnant in a coma, waking up, and THEN dying? That bothered me. And that whole subplot was really my main issue with last season.

But back to Season 3, I think there was an earlier setup for why she was targeted. I won't say what it is, but if episode 9 comes and goes and I'm wrong, I'll let you know.

Also, I don't believe that was the consequence for her. I believe that's still coming, and it'll much larger. I also have my own theory as to that. If you want to discuss, stop by the speculation thread on the .ORG, or email me.

My address is in my profile. :-)

pat32082 | November 21, 01:51 CET

Yeah, your post voices a lot of what i'm starting to think too WilliamTheB.

pat32082 also makes some good points but V leaving the food court just rang false to me. True, GHB messes with your thinking, probably in unpredictable ways, but she made her way to the garage, remembered exactly where she parked and had the presence of mind to set off her alarm under its influence so i'm not convinced (and Logan just happens to be walking by at exactly the right time ? Pull the other one. Just feels like a slightly lazy way to move the plot on). It might well be totally realistic but unfortunately (in some ways) fiction doesn't have to be true, it has to feel true to work and that didn't to me.

I'm all for showing them with flaws (and Veronica's S3 issues and how she struggles with them are compelling) but it has to feel progressive. They make mistakes like everyone else ? Cool, but you can't just suddenly show them making them repeatedly (in Keith's case one that apparently got Kendall killed) and expect it to feel natural. It'd be like Spike going from 'School Hard' to 'Intervention' in one episode.

ETA: Oops, sorry pat, not hammering away at you, just posted at more or less the same time ;). I hope you're right and i'm wrong and all these apparent problems are actually just groundwork for something brilliant (and i'll certainly keep watching to find out), just having a bit of trouble believing it at the moment.

[ edited by Saje on 2006-11-20 23:57 ]

Saje | November 21, 01:52 CET

V being a logical target for the rapist? Makes sense, yes. I have little doubt that something can (and, giving the writers a little credit, probably will) be done with this. But, on top of the other contrivances mentioned, how about this one: not only does V leave the crowded cafeteria and find her underground parking garage, but the rapist has to KNOW BEFOREHAND that Veronica is going to leave the crowded area. Is this honestly THE rapist? Because if his entire strategy rests on drugging girls in brightly lit, crowded areas in the middle of the day and betting on them being out of it enough to go to underground parking garages, I am really not impressed.

(As an aside, this type of plotting is also my reason for not liking the Wallace plot. Wallace cheating? Seems reasonable as a plotline idea--but to set it up they require us to believe that

a) Mechanical engineering is his lifelong dream (the toy airplane helped, but it came a week too late for me to buy it,
b) In this backward universe, looking at old exams is considered cheating (most universities let you access them, to my knowledge),
c) In this unversity, you have one class in "Mechanical Engineering" as opposed to an entire program, and this class is not an introduction but so difficult that Wallace can't pass, and
d) Wallace cheats on the exam, and yet is stupid enough to hand in his paper before anyone else in the class and do absolutely perfectly on it. If this guy is too stupid to know how to not make it dead obvious that he cheated, how can we expect him to know anything?

You could argue that a) Wallace never really had a chance to talk about his dreams, b) this is a very strict school, c) um...this is a very strangely laid-out program, and d) Wallace felt so bad about cheating that he couldn't stand waiting there. But the result of this is that I was guffawing through the entire episode every time some new development came up, and the wide smiles of approval that Wallace and the engineering prof give each other in his last appearance seemed equally goofy.)

That said, I am going to try to give the season the benefit of the doubt. Pat, you have a good point on Veronica being a big fish in a big pond (as opposed to a big fish in a small one), and that does explain a lot. I still don't exactly buy it per se, and I feel that a lot of the season has been heavy-handed, but I see what you mean and if the season expands on this reasonably and doesn't rely on quite so many contrivances, it might just return to favourite on-air show status again.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and agreed pat on Meg in Season 2. And not only all that, but when Meg wakes up Veronica doesn't even ask her what she remembers about the crash. But I still love season two, so there's hope for this year yet....

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2006-11-21 02:27 ]

WilliamTheB | November 21, 04:25 CET

K, this is probably going to be my last post before the thread vanishes, but just to address some points:

I was under the impression that someone other than the rapist drugged Veronica, and that person followed her, telling the "rapist" where she was going. I also don't believe that that's the normal MO, it's just how Veronica's run-in played out, given her location.

Wallace purchased the answers to the exam, and I was also under the impression, and I believe the person he went to said this, that the professor has used the same exam for the last, few years. So... what he did would be considered cheating.

We don't know if there's only one class in the mechanical engineering major (I doubt it), and, the professor didn't look at Wallace's exam for very long before realizing something, so again, I was under the impression that Wallace finished and had an attack of conscience, writing a note saying what he did. Which would also explain the professor's giving him the option to drop the class, because he came clean on his own.

And I'm pooped. lol.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2006-11-21 02:57 ]

pat32082 | November 21, 04:51 CET

The problem with purchasing past exams is that you can just get them from upper-year students, or people retaking the class. Calling this cheating just doesn't make sense to me. That aside, I do like your theory that Wallace confessed. Although if he had an attack of conscience he could have just not handed in the paper and gotten zero without academic dishonesty being an issue. And as far as it being the only class, that's the impression I got; but you might be right.

I also like your V-drugging theory, and hadn't thought of that.

Still not sold, but you do have some very good points.

WilliamTheB | November 21, 07:27 CET

I agree with pat32082 completely, and I want to thank him/her for helping me gain more insight into Veronica. That's all I have to say.

electricspacegirl | November 21, 14:32 CET

There was a Buffy reference on Veronica Mars last night (11/21). One of the girls that Veronica has been talking to about the rape case was walking through the hall, and Veronica stopped her to ask her something and the girl said, "Oh hey Buffy, or ____, or whatever your name is." I can't remember the exact quote or find a link about it anywhere. I was geeking-out last night when I heard it though!

debrjean123 | November 22, 21:41 CET