This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said."
11944 members | you are not logged in | 01 August 2014












December 08 2006

Flanvention cancelled. "Booster Entertainment apologizes for the great inconvenience, but due to unforeseen circumstances, Flanvention is cancelled. An official notice will be posted within 10 days." Boosters entire website has been removed except for that notice. Let's try to help the 500 Browncoats (many international!) descending on LA as we type salvage something from this weekend.. Edit: Adam Baldwin just showed up regardless. Edit 2: Mark Sheppard ('Badger') has turned up to say hello. Update: Nathan Fillion shows up. Update: Jonathan Woodward shows up.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-12-09 08:02 ]

I'm reading it... still... just too surreal for words at the moment...

Edited to add: Hey gossi you forgot to add tags. Suggestions:

taken for a ride, WTF?!!!, somebody took my flan, WHERE'S MY FRIKKEN MONEY?!!!

Just a few thoughts...

[ edited by 11thHour on 2006-12-08 02:12 ]
Right. Uhm.

Please help us:

- Plan and spread the news about alternative plans for the 500 odd people who were planning to go - many of whom now can't get room refunds or plane tickets due to the late announcement.

- Find out how to get the money the hell away from Booster. We don't really need to speculate much here: they are in severe trouble.
gossi: what money?? I am so scared for everyone that paid for flan..and the 2 other events for 2007. I am afraid there is NO MONEY.
Can we submit funds to PayPal again to help out with providing a good time? Please update us here if you need any financial help(I can't remember who originally on the So Cal Browncoats Group had arranged for that).

I don't want to vent any spleen - this is way beyond words at this point. Just let those of us who are able to, help you if possible.

[ edited by Tonya J on 2006-12-08 02:15 ]

[ edited by Tonya J on 2006-12-08 02:16 ]
They have taken out a loan to cover this convention, which makes things worse money wise. I'm going to put together advice on what people need to do.

If anybody was wondering why I complained about the topic saying it was definitely still on earlier, this is why. Booster have been in incredible trouble for a while now and just kept promising it would be okay. It wasn't.
I'm so sorry for you poor people. (hugs)
I just received the following e-mail from Denise:

"My husband and I spent the past two weeks trying to keep this event together. Due to circumstances I can't discuss at this time, Flan has been cancelled."

Straight from the horse's mouth, within minutes of the announcement going up on the web. I just got off the phone with Arielle of the SF Browncoats, and repeated my offer of prize support and anything else we can think of to support the backup bash. I'm so terribly sorry to everyone. Wish I could be there!
kballgetlost:

That's the kicker, isn't it? If they hadn't made the announcement a week ago that the con was in trouble, maybe people would believe their claim that this is "unforeseen"... but now it just seems like a lot of BS and abuse of people's trust as consumers. What a joke.
gossi: I totally agree. But I honestly think there is no loan either. I do not think they ever had plans to put on the Flan after everything that happened last week. I think they had no intention of having it but since everyone started complaining they said they got the money. I honestly believe they never did.

They took money from 500 people for flan..plus all the money they took for the 2 other cons in 2007

This is truly disgusting.
So those organisers who were 'on the road' a little while ago- dont see them turning up any time soon...

This sucks for those who are in the middle of this. I hope you all have a good time at the back-up-but-no-time-to-organise-now event...

[ edited by vera on 2006-12-08 02:20 ]
Circumstances I can't discuss at this time

or ever!! They are NEVER going to be open and honest about this. This is a bunch of cr*p.
From SoCal Browncoats group:

Browncoat Backup Bash is ON!!

Announcements coming by tomorrow morning, none of this 10 day crap for us.


[ edited by theonetruebix on 2006-12-08 02:44 ]
Time for all of us poor suckers to start calling our respective credit card companies in the hopes of getting back our hard-earned cashy money.

Not sure what's worse: being attacked by Reavers, running into an Alliance patrol, being tortured by Niska, being caught by the Blue Hands, or paying for Flan 2. One thing's for sure, though... they all suck.

Good thing is we're still alive... "still flyin'"

Mal's quote from "War Stories" sums up my feelings: "I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm armed." Well, okay, I'm not armed... but defintely angry.
And here I was still hoping their site had been hacked and it was all a really bad joke...

My heart goes out to all of you, for what that is worth. I'm going to go cry now!
Sorry for so many posts...but why 10 Days?

So they can make up a good FAKE story.
Be honest and truthful....NOW!!!
My condolences to all the ticket holders.

In a weird kind of way, especially those who kept telling us to hold back on the worry, all would be well, they knew and trusted these people. They must be feeling deeply duped right now.
I think there was such a paypal link at http://www.sfbrowncoats.com/backupbash/, but that site has not, of course, been updated to relect this cancellation...

I'm guessing both Adam and James and others will post updated Bash & donor info on here ASARP (reasonably)...

Man. There will be some shocked folks posting here from Flan when they land & find out...
Official notice within 10 days? How about today, since they're not busy putting on a convention or anything...

I hope your Back-up Bash kicks a$$. And I hope you all get your money back.
I don't understand what happened here.
"Official notice within 10 days? How about today, since they're not busy putting on a convention or anything...

I think they are too busy hiding from the angry mob of Browncoats that is about to descend upon them.
10 days sounds reasonable. Its not like its going to help or hinder anything. The con is history. Like I said earlier, this last week of appeasement is all being choreographed to cover their asses legally. I'm sure their attorney is calling the shots at this point.
I don't understand what happened here.

I don't think anybody does. Long story short: a lot of money went missing. Money was found. The hotel wasn't finalised. The event got canned.

Guess what else Joss isn't in charge of, basically?
This is why I do not like Profit cons.

Conventions have been run by and for the fans for decades until Cremation and its ilk came along. On a fan run convention the con committee and its volunteers run the con as a labor of love not money.

And, with the exception of a chosen few, all have either failed or worse and, in some of cases, there have been criminal and civic proceedings for fraud and misrepresentation.

Now, I do not begrudge the actors and other celebs in taking more money, but because of profit cons, the price of guests and, in turn, memberships have skyrocketed. And fan run conventions cannot afford the fees being handed out, forcing them to lower the number of guests they can afford and/or getting only one “headlining” guest supplemented by several “lesser known” guests that come to the convention for little or no fee to sell their autographs and wares.

Please support FAN RUN conventions.
I'm not that upset, really, because I know we'll have fun REGARDLESS of there being a flan or not. That being said, a bunch of us BBB people will be meeting tonight about to discuss the weekend, so stay tuned.

[ edited by Veloxi on 2006-12-08 02:35 ]
My condolences, y'all. I too hope you get your funds back, go anyway, and have a big ol' shindig on your own. :(
FRAK this. Someone tell me how I can donate money to the Back Up Bash. Isn't this less than a few HOURS before the Flanvention was supposed to happen? Someone else want to chase down the Booster people with me and have them explain themselves?

I'm ANGRY as all hell and I was never even going. I can't imagine what people are going through.
Wasn't this a fan run convention?
Please support FAN RUN conventions.

Booster called themselves a fan run convention.
I don't think anybody does. Long story short: a lot of money went missing. Money was found. The hotel wasn't finalised. The event got canned.

Did some people think this would happen? That's what it seems like. What happened last week that led everyone to believe the 'vent would be cancelled?
Oh wait, I think I remember when all the money went missing. But wasn't that a while ago? Sorry I'm so out of touch with you guys.
Booster is NOT a fan run convention.

It might have been run by fans, but they were in it to make a buck thus all Booster events are Profit cons.

True fan run cons are ones like Shore Leave in Baltimore and I-Con in New York. Even as big as it is, DragonCon is a fan run convention.

But for all that are already there or on the way there just focus on having fun this weekend.....go for the jugular on Monday.

[ edited by The Hey on 2006-12-08 02:55 ]
This is all kinds of stupid.

Everyone that was supposed to be attending the Flan has my sympathy.

Once the BackupBash Paypal link is up again, I'll chip in.
My sympathy for the browncoats going to flanvention is only exceeded by my anger towards the BE people. I've been following this on whedonesque since the beginning, and it seems to be extremely unprofessional. I would help out if I were in CA, or if the con was here in NY. Unfortunately, I can only be there in spirit. :(
And I'm officially going to be on the phone all night with the travel agency trying to figure out a refund or exchange for my flight tomorrow....GRRRRR
I'm so sorry for all who planned on attending. Obviously this is no way to treat people, or needless to say, run a business. Hope those of you who were planning on attending receive some sort of refund - keeping my fingers crossed anyways.
Oh man, this is awful, I feel sad and angry. I hope something good manages to come out of this weekend.
I am willing to donate to BBB if there is a way to do it. I am so sorry for you guys! Seriously, I know everyone is heartbroken.
And I'm officially going to be on the phone all night with the travel agency trying to figure out a refund or exchange for my flight tomorrow....GRRRRR
I'd still come down, because we're gonna have fun regardless! :)
I guess you can kind of call their conventions fan run. Yes they were(are) fans but they were in it for a buck and MEETING the celebs they wanted to meet.
I saw it at Flan last year, it was all about them and their little group of friends hanging with the "guests". If you were not one of them you did not matter.

Is that fan run? hahhaa
My unrealistic hope for all of you at the hotel as we speak, is that one of our BDH's decide it would be a good time for a surprise visit. I could totally imagine Nathan just hanging out with you guys at the bar.
The Bedlam Bards are actually minutes away from the Hilton and Cedric is going to check out the lay of the land and get back to me. I will share whatever info I get.

It sucks for them because they turned down paying gigs to be there. AND they drove all the way from Texas. So if you are there this weekend feel free to give them big hugs, they deserve them.
They picked the right day for the announcement: "A day which will live in Whedonverse infamy!"

I hope everyone who's already there or who can't change plans still has a great time -- and I still wish I were there meeting y'all!!
I, too, am sorry for all. Jeez, some people are in the air as we speak. I cannot even imagine all the money people are losing on this -- and I'm not talking about BE. This is just awful. There just aren't words for this.
I don't suppose anybody happened to save web pages or such from the Boosters site? Maybe the posts could be evidence in the inevitable lawsuit(s) that will arise from this? Just a thought on the off chance it's useful to somebody.
twadde1, there's no point law suiting it. It's a limited company, it'd just fold, and nobody is liable since it's an LLC.
gossi, does that mean there isn't anything anybody can do (assuming working with the credit card companies etc doesn't work out)? (Forgive my ignorance of all things law-ish!)
I doubt that information on websites can be used as evidence in a court of law. In any case, what they said/did is pretty well documented in many different fora, including this weblog. It will be difficult for them to say anything to the contrary. I'm sure that if they were to be prosecuted, their financial irresponsibility will incriminate them. It is obvious that there has been severe mismanagement of a large amount of money.

edit: Well, it makes no difference then, if lawsuit-ing doesn't help.

edit2: Apparently, I confused persecution and prosecution. *embarassed*

[ edited by non sequitur on 2006-12-08 02:58 ]

[ edited by non sequitur on 2006-12-08 03:09 ]
Folks, if anybody from Booster is reading:

The hotel has not been told the event is cancelled. As such, the Booster Backup Bash people can not negoiate taking the space off them. Could somebody from Booster please ring the hotel and cancel?

gossi, does that mean there isn't anything anybody can do (assuming working with the credit card companies etc doesn't work out)? (Forgive my ignorance of all things law-ish!)

If Booster fold, and credit card company won't refund, then it can be a long, drawn out process, and the amount of money you could get would be limited as it has to be divided out between everybody.

Since Booster say they took on loans to run the convention (as of last week), that will compliate things more as those loans have to be paid back first in the event of a collapse.

There is also the issue of, for example, the $5000 lifetime ticket holders. They aren't part of the Flan purchasers, technically, but they need refunding if it's bust.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-12-08 03:03 ]
Gossi, it's true that LLC's are just what they are named, limited liability. However what if it can be proven that there is criminal negligence? I'd love to see a Federal Judge award treble damages to pay for this fiasco.

We gotta find out if there are any Browncoats judges.
Well...I helped spread the word abut this travesty over at FireflyFans.net with a thread post. So I hope Browncoats taking one final glance at FFF.net will see my post before jetting off to California.
It's a limited company, it'd just fold, and nobody is liable since it's an LLC.


For practical purposes, probably right, Gossi. BUT if there was criminal misbehavior, then that "LLC" tag won't protect the criminals. Unfortunately, in the world of criminal enterprises, this is way small potatoes--unless someone hapens to know that a prosecutor or chief law enforcement officer having jurisdiction happens to be a browncoat or have a loved one who's ripped off and heartbroken... Never completely discount the wheels of justice--they do sometimes come through.
roadrunner- Yup, I feel like a fool. An angry, angry fool.

I'm so, so sorry everyone. I genuinely believed the BE gals were honest and upfront and I defended them because of that. I was wrong and stupid and I feel like a big, fat chump.

They cancelled the convention, therefore they owe you all refunds. Sadly (and this I know from experience), they can file for bankruptcy and basically if they have ANY corporate creditors ahead of you all (hotel, caterers, etc) they get the first piece of the pie and you all are screwed. They may even be able to find a way not to pay at all. I *highly* suggest that if there is someone among you with some means that you hire an attorney and look into the possibility of filing a lawsuit as a *class* action or some kind of group filing.

I pledge $400 (the sum of my paycheck this week) to the legal fund to make up for being such an ass and defending these shills.
Let me know where and when to PayPal the money.
jclemens - yeah, that's one exception and I had just come back to point it out to myself :o)

I do actually have some information about this aspect (on who to contact - there's actually a website with an online form to fill out to trigger an investigation in the state of Oregon).

I'm holding off posting it until the dust settles (as in when I'm less mad).

[ edited by gossi on 2006-12-08 03:10 ]
Veloxi - wish I could still go but unfortunately I'm in college and I have finals. As much as I'd love to just come hang out I can't justify going if I'm not going to be getting everything I paid for. I know you all will have a blast though!
Tis not your fault, Ozlady. Everyone hoped that you were right.
Posted to SoCal Browncoats Yahoo Group:
From the Browncoat Backup Bash Crew:

First off, let me state that we sincerely hope Flan goes off without
a hitch this weekend. We are looking forward to a great weekend with
all the Browncoats and the BDH's.

But in light of today's events, we have to plan for the worst case
scenario. Let me assure you that we will have an event of some kind
no matter what happens. Adam and some of the BBB crew are on their
way down from NoCal and are strategizing while driving. We are going
to plan as much as we can while still looking forward to Flan.

We want to make sure that everyone stays as calm as possible and
knows that we are doing everything we can to make sure we have the
best weekend possible. Updates will be coming as we can. There are
people at the hotel who will let us know as events happen.

Please let's keep going in true Browncoat fashion and make this a
positive event, and show just how great the Browncoats are as a
fandom. We can work on that wrath thing after the weekend.

Thanks
James


[edit: this predates the brief post from the Backup Bash folks quoted above by onetrueb!x saying B3 is on (somehow missed that) but I'll leave this here I guess.]

[ edited by ThereUR on 2006-12-08 05:02 ]
Thanks non sequitur. But I still feel like an idiot.

My days of believing in the good intentions and honesty of people are over. :-P
Also, yes, OzLady - I too hoped you were right. Don't feel bad.

Booster blocked Archive.org from their website earlier in the year, so there is no full record of the Booster website online.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-12-08 03:15 ]
[edited to remove duplicate info]. I'll just say that my jaw literally dropped when I saw the post saying Flan II was canceled. Then I burst into furious tears, and then I became grimly determined to get to Burbank and be with some Browncoats. Many Browncoats in one place = a good time.

[ edited by ThereUR on 2006-12-08 05:11 ]
My jaw was on the desk when I read the title of this post. I mean, I kinda figured it would happen, but at the same time, I was just stunned it had come to this.

BE were touted as being the be-all and end-all in conventions. How'd this happen?

Positive energies to the Browncoats heading to LA...I know you'll all have fun anyway!
Here's the word re: donating to a Backup Bash. While the earlier web form doesn't apepar to have been resurrected, the PayPal email address to whichy ou can donate funds is:

backupbash@sfbrowncoats.com

This comes directly from lexigeek. As with the plans before, if funds are not used, they will be refunded.

Further update: The hotel question is up in the air. There's an indication that due to liability issues, Backup might not be able to contract for space. The hotel will be discussing the mater with its attorneys in the morning to see if something can be worked out.

In the meantime, the NoCal/SoCal Browncoats are busily at work trying to come up something that hundreds of Browncoats can do.
There's an indication that due to liability issues, Backup might not be able to contract for space.

Head hits desk. I'm off to bed.
So if Booster blocked archive.org from their website earlier this year, that means there were people with nagging doubts/full knowledge that something like this might happen?
No. They may have blocked it due to Archive.org taking too much resources. I've had that problem myself in the past.

That said, the problems at BE can't have just happened one day. The money people paid for tickets and such did not just suddenly disappear.
I just tried and I can get some Cached versions via google .. maybe someone can take screenshots of this if there is anything helpful. There are a lot of pages to cover though.

Link


No idea if this helps but here is statement that they refund in case of cancelation.
Link

[ edited by Kessie on 2006-12-08 04:07 ]
God, i know we've all watched this happening and heck, i was in no way ever going to get to go, but my hearts still sinking for you guys :(

I cant believe that they have only announced it now. I mean, all Browncoats seem to believe they can beat the odds, but this is ridiculous.

I hope you have a wondreful backup bash and that you get to see at least some money back.
Yeah, the sucky thing about the timing is you have to cancel hotels 24 hours in advance of the booking. Which ain't going to happen for people.
I donated to BBB....I feel so helpless... so it is the only constructive thing I can do for my friends.
I know how you feel, Charmuse. I just donated too, but I wish I could do more for the Flan 500. I'm sick and angry on their behalves and BE needs to start talking NOW, not in ten frelling days!
My hearts go out to the Brownshirts that are getting hosed by BE. Unforseen, my untanned posterior. For the attendees sakes, I hope there are swift refunds. Where did all the money go for this SOLD OUT event? It boggles the mind.

And yes, you can sue LLCs. The corporation would be liable and subject to judgments. Being an LLC means you can't go after the promoters' personal assets.
kellyhk - it's not just the money for the event which is missing. As in, yes, the corporation would be liable - but they didn't even have the money to run a convention. So if people won money back, where's it coming from?
I just got off the phone with my credit card company and they said I have to write in to the company to start the process of initiating chargeback because all the payment dates are more than 60 days old. So just fyi for people wanting to do this. Also, anyone know how I can contact Denise? I have to get a statement from her and include that in the writing..
Gossi, it won't come from anywhere. What will happen is BE will declare bankruptcy after the other entities (ie, the hotel) gets its share. I'm sure like any other con, they have a hotel contract and need to fill XXX amount of rooms lest they be billed a hotel fee.

The ironic thing? If the alternate Browncoat event manages to keep people at the Hilton, BE may reach its room block requirement and not owe the hotel a room fee.
backupbash@sfbrowncoats.com

I'm sorry to be so dense - how do I donate funds via an e-mail address? ^^^!!!***
Word from those who have spoken to both Denise and Dave on the phone is that they can't say anything at this time about the notion of refunds.
PayPal, Tonya J. If you have a PayPal account, you can donate by giving THEIR (BBB) email address. :-)

And you're not dense- you're just 21st century challenged! *teasing*
This is just... holy cow. All those people who were going to this con, I just feel so bad! I hope you guys can find something fun to do... and someplace to stay, as it sounds. This is insane.
AH! Good grief. I didn't know you could do it that way.

Thanks OzLady.
They can not talk about refunds because there is NO money. If they have no money for the convention how do they for refunds.

They don't. I honestly believe they never got a loan.
We love our Big Damn Heroes. Guess who just showed up at the hotel, to a resounding chorus of, well, you know, his song?
That. is. awesome. bix, thanks for sharing- that's the first time I've smiled in two hours.

I love that guy (Adam, not bix... no offense, bixie! ;-)
Funny, bix. God bless Adam. I've added it to the subject line as it's too cute that an actor turned up for a cancelled convention.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-12-08 04:37 ]
I love our Big Damn Heroes.

Adam rocks!!
That totally made me cry.
That is AWESOME Bixy! Adam is the man! Thank GOD our BDH's are really BIG DAMN HEROES. Mr. Baldwin..you have my unending admiration.
Oh that's wonderful! Bless Adam's heart.
Adam totally rocks! Thats just...I don't even know..but he is amazing...

But to get back to the refund thing then I still need to attempt to contact Denise if I want to initiate chargeback....if someone has an e-mail address could they please e-mail it to me? kballgetlost@yahoo.com
Adam showed? Was he even scheduled? Holy crap, I love that man!

And to Browncoats at the unFlan, you have my love and support. Hopefully, the party will rock never-the-less.
Adam showed? Okay, that settles it. Anything that man does from here on out, I am watching. Period.
I particularly feel bad for the 5 individuals who paid $5,000.00 for a lifetime Booster membership. Too bad no one said it would be the lifetime of a mayfly.
kballgetlost, if I were you I'd just send a certified mail to their corporate address (don't have it, sorry, but it's bound to to be around the interwebs somewhere). Make copies of everything for your credit card company. I really don't think you're going to get a reply.
I am finally de-lurking for this, of all things ... not looking for sympathy, just wanting to vent.

During Flan 1, I fell in love with the intimate setting and full schedule that BE delivered, and so now, a year later, here I am in Burbank, one of the Flan 500.

And, even better, I am one of the "Lifetime" members who shelled out $5000 for a prime seat and an all-inclusive pass to every BE event "for life." Funny how my definition of "for life" and BE's definition seem to be at odds.

Have I cried? Oh yeah.
Am I upset? Definitely.
Am I thoroughly and utterly pissed? Yes, in every sense of the word. Or I soon will be.
Perhaps I was naïve or stupid or whatever you’re thinking as you read this. But for me, it’s not so much about the money (although it could have been used for other purposes), as it is about loss of faith and misplaced trust. As it appears now, I may never know what happened, even after the infamous “10 days.”

While I am grateful to the fabulous Browncoats who are even now working to make this a worthwhile weekend, I will be checking out and going home Friday.

P.S. Mr. Baldwin is the classiest person ever. He has earned even more of my respect and admiration.
A thought occurs. Even if money can't be squeezed from the stone that is BE, a legal action should be filed if only to get a look at their financials. That way, what really happened becomes public record, and we have more than what ever line of BS BE posts in 10 days.
twadde1, there's no point law suiting it. It's a limited company, it'd just fold, and nobody is liable since it's an LLC.

Actually, gossi, if I may put my lawyer beret on for a minute ;), the LLC is not an absolute shield. A judge or jury can "pierce the corporate veil" and make the individual managers personally liable, even in a limited liability entity--for example in cases of blatant mismanagement, fraud or if the owners failed to follow certain formalities. This means, the managers' personal assets may be on the line. It depends on the facts and the state law applicable of course. In any event, a good plaintiffs' lawyer would name everyone as defendants, i.e. the owners individually, and the LLC. Even if they are not found personally liable at the end of the day, the individuals are likely to incur significant legal fees to defend the suit.

In addition, state and federal regulators, like the FTC, have the power to investigate and go after the individual partners--not just the company--for misleading ticket holders and mismanaging the money. FTC decisions can carry pretty big fines.

All that to say that there are legal remedies available for the fans. The reality is that the LLC will probably file for bankruptcy sooner rather than later and that any legal judgment against it will probably never be recovered. This does not mean the owners can't be held responsible legally and financially. Fans who are considering legal action should move very quickly though.
--and this does not constitute legal advice. ;)

My wild guess right now, based on the tid bits disclosed here and there, is that there is some major chaos/dispute going on within the company and the partners are probably working out the details of a settlement with each other, and plan to start the bankruptcy procedures ASAP thereafter. The lack of public apology at this time probably means no one wants to say anything that may be perceived as admitting liability while things are still up in the air ... This is silly though-- ongoing legal negotiations do not negate PR damage control. If anything, their silence/lack of humility is angering fans more and inviting litigation.

I sincerely hope the fans will obtain some form of vindication. And it's sad to know that, in reality, nothing will make up for the awsomeness that Flan II could have been with experienced professionals at the helm.
I stand corrected, Alanna_Wolff :) Thanks for that.
A thought occurs. Even if money can't be squeezed from the stone that is BE, a legal action should be filed if only to get a look at their financials. That way, what really happened becomes public record, and we have more than what ever line of BS BE posts in 10 days.

You are absolutely right Xithor; discovery is one of the "beautiful" things of the legal system here ;)--One more reason to move quickly.
...Even though I'm sure the last thing on the mind of the Flan ticket holders right now is wanting to meet with a lawyer. :(

Well, at least they have Adam hanging out with them. He is one class act!
The chargebacks should be done right away, too. Like, tomorrow. It seems kind of unlikely that they still have an account with money in it, but it's worth a little time and a few bucks to try.
>>A judge or jury can "pierce the corporate veil" and make the individual managers personally liable, even in a limited liability entity--for example in cases of blatant mismanagement, fraud or if the owners failed to follow certain formalities<<

You mean like announcing the formal cancellation until late Thursday afternoon after denying it all day? To me that is blatant and reckless mismanagement.

I hope you whoever heads the class action suit (and there should be a class action suit above and beyond just getting a refund), they document the timeline of what and when things were said.

BTW, Adam, you rock.

[ edited by The Hey on 2006-12-08 06:12 ]
I stand corrected, Alanna_Wolff :) Thanks for that.

Oh no need to stand for little me! ;) Did I sound all lectur-y? *hangs head in semi-shame* You were absolutely right to assume an LLC is full proof; that's how it was designed--but abuses and frauds have made judges create this whole "piercing the corporate veil" theory that comes in handy at times (and it does sound like something Reavers may enjoy too! *extra bonus points*) ;)

My only reason for posting this (aside from being all Ms. Pompous Lawyer--I do enjoy that) ;) is to let distraught fans know there may well be remedies available. And if they are interested, they should definitely sit with a lawyer (as a cohesive group if possible--they'll need one big conference room!) and hear about their options. Consumer protection is really big right now, so it may be possible to get the attention of a class action attorney and even of a prosecutor or state/federal agency. Lord knows I dislike frivolous litigation--and this would not be one. More often than not, the legal system is there to right some wrongs. And Flan tickets holders have been done some mighty wrong.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain...
You mean like announcing the formal cancellation until late Thursday afternoon after denying it all day? To me that is blatant and reckless mismanagement.

Yes, it may well be, combined with all of the other misrepresentations (negligent or intentional). The problem is that things that are "morally" wrong may not be necessarily "legally" wrong and actionable in a court of law. An experienced litigator can certainly advise the Flan goers as to which route would be the most effective and which evidence would be the most damaging. Fortunately, it's possible that stuff going on behind the scenes and that we don't know about yet --like the way the money was (mis)managed or the way the corporation was run--could be the slam dunk. Either way, fans should hold on to any and all past communications with BE--e-mails, message board postings, pms... All of that can usually be used in court or in negotiations.
Wow. A long time ago I was thinking about swinging this event. I am glad I didn't, and I am so sorry to those who were planning on attending.

Adam: We already knew this, but you are first class. Thanks for showing up for the fans. You rock.
The Hero of Burbank, the man they call Jayne!

So sorry for all of you attenders, but have a good time anyway, and tks to the SoCal Browncoats.
Hey Dan Regal? Would you give me a call?

I have an activity.
If anyone can get in touch with him, please let him know I need to speak with him ASAP.
"And, even better, I am one of the "Lifetime" members who shelled out $5000 for a prime seat and an all-inclusive pass to every BE event "for life.""

Big hugs to you, LaFeeVerte. My heart really does go out to you. I'm not going or anything, but I didn't feel PERSONALLY offended until I read your post. (((LaFeeVerte)))
My heart goes out to everyone who is there, what a let down after all of the hope over this past week.

Adam: you are amazing for showing up, that has to lift some spirits :)

SoCal Browncoats: you guys really are doing the impossible by throwing the BackupBash and really pulling the weekend together at such a late date. Kudos to you, you are amazing!
Um....
I cant really add to this ... my heart goes all to invovled in this and has been hoodwinked :( I hope all those that are there are able to have a good time nevetheless...and just want to say that the folks of the Socal and Nocal browncoats have my complete and utter respect and admiration for their attempting to get the B3 bash going.

And Adam baldwin, what a guy. Even though I think his political philosophy is completely insane, I absolutely admire and respect that man! Anyone want to help me create a virtual shrine to him and his hero-ness?? I hope other verse actors like Nathan Fillion will show up anyway, even if a small amount of time.

Also this totally sucks for the people who wont find out about this incident until arriving at the hotel.
While I'm not going to be there (and I wanted to go to Flanvention too, if not this year's one then the following one) - I'd like to thank Adam, from the bottom of my heart, for showing up anyway. You sir, are the greatest. If this were video, you'd see me doffing my hat to you. Ditto to the SoCal Browncoats. You, too, are Big Damn Heroes.

As for BE - as perhaps the only "Smart Mark" (wrestling fan - look up the term on Wikipedia for a more precise definition) on Whedonesque, I'd say that they need to be very grateful that Browncoats are much more polite and civil then New York and Philadelphia (old school) ECW fans.
Allyson, he took off for the night, I think, but I just sent him email.
Any idea of numbers of attendees?
More: WHen Adam arrived earlier, he said that he's talked to Nathan. They, and the local BCs, are trying to work out something for Saturday afternoon.
Gossi: I'm not sure that creating a LLC means anything when you let the corporate filings lapse, I think the organizers of BE are flying without a net, and have been since Oct 7, 2006. But I still have hopes that my credit card company insures my payment in case of fraud (last minute cancelation). I have filed a formal complaint with the FBI charging internet fraud, of course they receive thousands of complaints so I cannot be sure they will investigate this one. And I will be writing to the Better Business Bureau tomorrow.
Oh, and seeing Adam Baldwin? Priceless!

[ edited by embers on 2006-12-08 08:29 ]
Any idea of numbers of attendees?

it's too early. Technically, Flan didn't even start tonight, but rather tomorrow (Friday). So this has been the early crowd.
I think there was such a paypal link at http://www.sfbrowncoats.com/backupbash/, but that site has not, of course, been updated to relect this cancellation...

Sorry, I just got home from work. The site is updated now, and the PayPal donation button is back.

The signup form is back too. If you purchased a ticket for Flan, whether you plan on attending the Backup Bash or not, please take a minute to go through the signup form. In the worst-case scenario that Booster Events refuses to give refunds and we need to turn this into a class action suit, we'll need a way to get in touch with all 500 ticket holders. And since we already have about a third of those accounted for through this form, it's probably as good a way as any to get everyone's contact info.

[ edited by RayHill on 2006-12-08 08:48 ]
This is all just beyond belief.

BTW, Andy at QuantumMechanix asked me to post his email and to let the backup organizers know that they are standing by and if they can help in any way, please let them know! His email is: gorea@quantummechanix.com.
This is billz's disembodied internal thoughts here. My boy billz would probably be posting right now, but the combination of the unbelievable pile of s*** that has been dumped on our kind and rockin' Browncoat community at the last second, when there is no possible way for people to have reasonable time to make other plans, and the unbelievable kindness and hard-rockingness of Adam Baldwin for showing up to kick back with people for a few hours, has made billz completely catatonic. Such...s*****...behavior...and...such...awesome...behavior...at...same...event...
*smoke pours out of billz's ears* ;-)

I am sending love and condolences to all who paid money in good faith to attend Flanvention Fiascovention. I hope that this will be just another War Story, and that the great time you had chillin' with Adam (and with AB again and Nathan on Sat.?), and doin' the fun things SoCal Browncoats hook you up with, will help to make up for all this undeserved crap coming your way. :-(
I just go home from the Hilton. There were about 130 people there.
FYI, I'm told that Backup updates will apppear on the California Browncoats site.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2006-12-08 10:08 ]
My greatest sympathies to everyone who was planning to attend Flanvention this weekend. I can't even begin to express how utterly horrible this makes me feel.

Kudos to Adam for showing up, and I hope he, Nathan and the other BDH's can work something out for you guys this weekend.

Also a big shout out to the NoCal/SoCal Browncoats for flying to the rescue!
I just can't believe I'm seeing this. I want to cry. I watched the events all last week in horror, and was very relieved for all the 'coats going to Flan when they said it was on. I really thought this had been saved, even if Booster were clearly in serious trouble. I am so sorry for those who were attending Flanvention, but do hope that the Backup Bash will be fantastic for you.

Adam showing up anyway sounds like the best possible start! I love our BDH's.
This has been a hell of a few months for the Browncoats but this has to be the worst news. I'm so sorry for all the people who have travelled far and paid much to go to Flan 2 only to have this crap levelled at them.
I had this horrible sinking feeling that this would happen since the whole cancelled/not cancelled thing last week. It may be the cynic in me but I had the feeling that they just said it was back on to scupper the Back Up Bash plans. Why would they do this? I have no idea but I just got that feeling. Maybe out of sheer embarrasment that Browncoats could pull together in 10 days something they couldn't pull off in a year.

This has been awful news to wake up to this morning and I have shed more than a tear for those people turning up in Burbank today to find this out.

I truly hope something can be salvaged from this. And Adam Baldwin, you ROCK!

Edited becuase I forgot to add:

I have been an 'affiliate' of BE - ie if someone buys a ticket through my website I get a commission which I regularly received on a monthly basis and helped pay my hosting fees etc. I have not received any commissions since September even though I have earned them, so it would seem that they have been in finacial difficulties since that time. I have just donated my last commission to the Back up Bash and if I still had the money from my previous commissions they would have had that too.

[ edited by Cider on 2006-12-08 13:31 ]
Wow for once my real job in commerical lending and my love of Firefly come together at an odd time.

Few things about corporate bankruptcy. First of all, they would have to file, which can take weeks. There is then a stay of 90 days where no one (secured creditors or otherwise) can go after them. A judge will then look at the debt. First, the judge will throw out any loans taken with in the last 3- 6 months (logic is that that they took the loan knowning they were in trouble and planned to file bankruptcy,) next is the secured creditors. To be honest, a company like this isn't going to have much in assets, maybe some accounts recievable (your money in banking terms). But unless they put their houses up... I doubt there's much secure debt.
So then on to unsecured debt. The judge will place them in an order of importance and how they will get repaid... either through liquidation or through long term repayment or not at all. No matter what, this is a process that takes a couple of years to iron out for a company.
My 2 cents is that they may have tried to get a loan, but in the banking world, this kind of business would not have been seen as stable or have a storng source of repayment.

Keep after your credit card companies as this may be the only way... it could make the CC companies, the ones to go after them, not just the browncoats... lets be honest Visa is a lot more powerful than us and Visa REALLY doesn't like it when it gets stuck with the bill.

I'm sorry for your troubles... but you have a right to a refund, either through the CC's or the company itself. Fight for it.
I have not received any commissions since September even though I have earned them, so it would seem that they have been in finacial difficulties since that time

Cider - ditto. The comission payments were paying for Serenitymovie.org, but they stopped in September.
Many commiserations with everyone who'd been hoping to go. This just sucks.

Meanwhile, much applause to Adam Baldwin.
Respect for Adam Baldwin. He has restored my faith in showbiz people.
I feel so terribly sorry for everyone who paid money for this event. For weeks now I've been listening to people talking about how carefully they had to save so they could go!

Adam is officially my hero. The man is a true Browncoat.
And hello to the meta fans who enjoy wank. Play nice.

I really can't say that with a straight face. Get a new term will ya?

Adam Baldwin is the fan hero of the year in my book.
Does anyone know if there's any video floating around out there of Adam's surprise appearance? I am so proud of our BDH! I had a hope that something like that would happen. It's rare though that my undying optimism is proven. Thank you Adam. You're the best!!!
Don't believe so, skeezycheeses. He hung around for a couple of hours in the bar with people. There are plans afoot to get the fans and the guests together tomorrow.
Just a short drive-by (kinda busy with the house..)

I'm utterly speechless at this point and don't really know what to say. I defended BE just like OzLady because both Denise and Vicki are my friends and I believed in them. I don't understand how this happened.

My heart goes out to all of you.

All of those who are working to make something of the weekend for the Flan attendees, you rock, totally.

And Adam Baldwin rules.

*hugs*
I think Adam is truly a hero here. And I do hope that there are news stories printed about this, so he gets some credit outside the 'verse. I don't think there are too many celebrities who would do this. What a special guy.
BE Victims, another place to vent now that the board is gone.
but you have a right to a refund, either through the CC's or the company itself.

My experience with CC companies has been that they are very willing to work with you when a merchant doesn't deliver the goods you've paid for with the card. In the aggregate, they care more about the cardholders than any given merchant, especially one who is in breach of their agreement with the CC company. It's more hassle when the charge is a few months old, but don't think you're the first this kind of thing has ever happened to; there is a process.
I was gone during the beginning of this, and did not have tickets to go, so I have kept silent as I caught up on these awful goings on.

I just wanted to express my sympathies to everyone who had tickets to Flan2 and add a few random thoughts. IMO no one should feel stupid or guilty for trying to be fair to the promoters or for buying into what they were selling. I'm cynical and do not have much faith in people to begin with. However, losing faith in promoters trying to sell you something because of this I can see, but not faith in people in general. Not when you look at how the fans in California and around the world are rallying to try to save the weekend. The promoters are a few people who did everybody wrong. People are the ones trying to make it right.

I hope that everyone who is there or who has non-refundable tickets to get there, will let themselves have a great time for the weekend in spite of this horrible disappointment.
The North and South sound like they are finally coming together...even if it is only in California...under a Browncoat banner. It sounds like it could be a memorable weekend thanks to some of the extrordinary fans, actors and whoever else may end up showing up, if anybody.

I am not much of a joiner and so I do not get involved heavily in fan events. I cannot tell you how impressed I have been by the fans of Joss Whedon shows and the quality of their involvement with each other and with a good cause.
Mark Sheppard has turned up at the hotel to say hello to peeps.
We also welcome our Fandom Wank masters, makes a change from the anime and Harry Potter fandom stuff you guys always seem to cover.
Quick, somebody give ginmar an account!
gossi - cut it out and play nice. My heart goes out to everyone. This is just awful but I am so proud to be part of such a great fan movement. You SoCa Browncoats rocketh mightily.
I was telling someone last night that I knew some of our BDH's would show up this weekend because they felt bad, and she kept saying no way, their agents would freak, yadda yadda - and then I read that Adam showed up. No surprise, he's like the bestest. Then I read he and Nathan are trying to work something out with the Browncoats to do something Saturday; more no surprise from me.

Now I read that Mark has shown up to say hi.

I can't say enough how much I adore these people!!
Mark Sheppard has been here most of the day, he has been posing for informal snapshots and chatting with fans. He is very handsome and charming (and the accent is real!). We are very lucky to have such kind generous celebrities in our fandom.
I agree, rockgoddes. I predicted they'd show up a week ago, when we first heard that flan may be cancelled. It's so great of them to do this. What a wonderful cast we have. I can't express how much love I feel for them right now.

A shout out to sarrava and theonetruebix and the rest of the PDX Browncoats who are down there. Hope you guys have a good time in spite of it all. You have lots to tell us when you get back.
Ya know, for a Fandom Wank, it was surprisingly sympathetic (and many posters also added props to Adam Baldwin):

• "...more horror-inspiring than wanky right now, since most of these people have legitimate concerns..."
• "... seriously though, what a nightmare."
• "I'm impressed at all the legal talk going on there. These people are very determined to get their money back..."
• "On one hand, I think everybody's justified at being pissed. On another, this set my 'this is a scam' alarm shrieking when I first heard about the Nov. 28 announcement."
• "I'm not really involved in fandom, but it makes me love Firefly just a bit more to know the actors are good people.
• (someone's deleted a post that was present earlier in which a poster said that the legal advice on whedonesque was pretty damn good...)


Anyway, I've seen Wanks next to which this reads like a bloody love letter...
Really? Iguess I never read their stuff. I thought they were being quite a bit harsh laughing at the fans etc...
I thought they were being quite a bit harsh laughing at the fans etc...


That's their raison d'etre. Think Defamer but with a fandom slant.

But in other news, Joss posted a couple of times in another thread.
Fandom Wank? That's really a term? Honestly?

Just sounds weird.

Maybe I need to stay in more.
I check in about once a week to see who's been wanked at, and posters tend to vy with each other for imaginary "Crueler-and-Funnier" awards. Rarely have I seen posts with "well, they have a legitimate point" and "wow, this sucks for them" and the like...

There were some folks who mentioned their enjoyment at seeing Browncoats or Whedon fans suffer, but there always are folks that just don't care for us.

And I have to admit I laughed at this comment: "What do they care? They're still free."

There was some harshitude. But mellow in comparison to some things they've said about HP or anime fans...
*looks outside for rain of toads* The Wankers were being semi-kind?!? Dude... can the apocalypse be far behind!?!? ;-)

Actually, it's really heartwarming that something like this seems to bring out good in a lot of people. If I didn't think Allyson would come through the computer and throttle me, I might start singing "Kumbaya." *teasing*
Simon: thank you for the link to the Jossy posts; I hate to miss those even when I'm focused on the dramady that is happening at the Burbank Hilton this weekend!
Nathan's just turned up to see people. Obviously, he's well aware it was cancelled.
Woohoo for our BDHs!
Alan Tudyk and Christina Hendricks showed up also.
Unbelievable. So so far Jayne, Badger, Music Man, RPG Man, Mal, Wash, and Saffron showed up?

Frikkin' jiggy. I'm so glad for you Flans, I could spit. Not that I... spit.

Seriously, have a great time, can't wait to see the pics (RavenU, have you been so hurt by this that you aren't snapping? If so, my heart goes out to you, loyal girl.)!

This fandom is special, and alive. Fuck the greedy bitches that shafted any and all of you, and I mean that with great vehemence and a big third finger to the perps. If shame could be a sickness, I hope it haunts and weakens them for decades. Your trust, dedication and dollars were taken from you this time, and one can only hope that it never happens again, that no fans ever get taken such awful advantage of again, ever.

The BDH's are indeed just that, and have come to show support of their own volition and appreciation of you and your dedication.

Be proud, happy and stay strong. This wrong won't go unpunished, and the generous will be revered and loved right back for always.

Man, I'm so emotional about all this. You peeps (fans and stars alike) are so much more than da bomb. Is there even a word?

*admires* *loves*
Well said. =)

(Especially that... *saucy* line. ;-)
I am also among the BE Lifetime members that paid $5000. In fact, I was the first. I'm not looking for sympathy or anything. I took a risk and lost. Sometimes life works out that way. I am angry, but as my fellow VIP Lifetime member posted earlier, it isn't as much about the money as it is the trust. I was very much a BE defender and supporter in the past and I am left feeling a bit unclean by it all.

When I heard that Flan was officially canceled, I went ahead and changed my return flight and I came home yesterday. I am very glad that those that stayed are getting to meet their BDH's. I cannot express my admiration enough for these folks. Coming to a canceled convention to hang out with the fans makes my heart swell. It's the kind of thing that makes you proud to be a fan.

I also want to thank the organizers of the Backup Bash. You guy's and gal's rock!

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home