Whedonesque : Comments on 12183 : (SPOILER) Dark Horse's preview for the Buffy #1 comic book.

I didn't look at the pictures with the interview but couldn't resist this time. Just gonna have to say woohoo. Love the reveal on p5 :)

Paul_Rocks | January 06, 06:01 CET

Gun Buffy? I'm gonna guess those are electric-based weapons similar to what the Initiative used, because we all know Buffy has an aversion to conventional firearms.

Shiai | January 06, 06:08 CET

I'm feeling onboardy.

JDS | January 06, 06:19 CET

I didn't think I could want this comic more. I was wrong.

TamaraC | January 06, 06:20 CET

God, I feel like tap dancing!

Charmuse | January 06, 06:21 CET

Oh my. Straight off, an Andrew joke. Why I am so amused and happy about that?

The art inside is really cute... but she looks so young that it contrasts oddly to the older portrait art on the front.

numbereleven | January 06, 06:29 CET

I still love the reveal on page five as well.lol

Buffyfantic | January 06, 06:46 CET

I want more.

P5 reveal made me giddy.

TwisTz | January 06, 06:51 CET

Ah, the eyestrain from last month's smaller pics is relieved! The script that anagranfors deciphered was pretty much on the mark!

Got to join in with the love for the pg. 5 joke - oh, Andrew, you're such a wit!

catalyst2 | January 06, 06:52 CET

The artwork on these is major league cherry.

gossi | January 06, 06:53 CET

Well, I love almost everything. The pg. 5 reveal is awesome, the dialogue has the same punch as always. But jumping out of a helicopter with commando gear and fancy guns? It feels like a different show... I mean where'd they get the chopper? And a pilot? I guess there could be some Riley connection... I just hope the comic stays "Buffy", not "Dark Angel".

jam2 | January 06, 06:54 CET

Is it my own wishful thinking, or is Buffy sporting a Serenity shirt??? It looks strikingly similar to Chinese.

SerenityScape | January 06, 07:13 CET

I just saw the preview...and page 5. I can just imagine the reaction to that bit of news. Good thing March isn't too far away.

impalergeneral | January 06, 07:24 CET

I'm loving the P5 reveal as well. This really feels like Buffy is back! Can't wait for March.

maje | January 06, 07:26 CET

I'm totally excited as well. But what is with that red headed girl? I thought Joss said he only worked with artists draw real women. Who has hair that big? I mean, since the 80's?

cookie_dough | January 06, 07:36 CET

It's definitely a Serenity shirt. The first character matches the first character in the Serenity logo (the ship's nose version, where the characters are side-by-side rather than one above the other).

ETA: Comparison (jpg) with the first character on the shirt made red to show it more clearly.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2007-01-06 06:01 ]

The One True b!X | January 06, 07:40 CET

Oh my gods. Buffy is wearing a Serenity t-shirt. That's just freaking amusin'.

gossi | January 06, 07:54 CET

Well, it proves she knows good science fiction. If only she worked for Fox TV programming.

impalergeneral | January 06, 07:58 CET

I live in Canada. Where can I go online to subscribe to this new comic?

Saskbuffyfan | January 06, 08:10 CET

Also note the sidekick in panel 3 of page 5, sporting the Molly Hayes (Runaways) hat. :)

ETA: Oops, that should have been 3, not 4.

[ edited by lexigeek on 2007-01-06 07:01 ]

lexigeek | January 06, 08:19 CET

lexigeek, I was just about to post the Molly Hayes sighting as well. This is like watching an episode of "the Inside." But, um, potentially way, way better and longer.

CaptainB | January 06, 09:13 CET

I'm just curious to see exactly how big this series is going to be. Not for us, obviously, but for the comics industry. "Buffy" was on the cover of Previews, which means the distributor thinks it'll sell a lot, plus it's got mainstream press that even comics events like "Civil War" can only dream of. I'm wondering if this is going to translate into huge sales or people are just going to wait to buy the trades.

dark_tyler | January 06, 10:30 CET

I wait for the trades on Astonishing, but I will by both on this.

TamaraC | January 06, 10:43 CET

Hehehe, the page 5 cracked me up. Joss, you lovable... Joss! Can't wait for this. Done the hyping to all my converts too and yes, the feeling is very mutual.

Tmas | January 06, 10:54 CET

I too am happy and sort of relieved at the infamous Page 5 Reveal. The dialogue has a perfect Buffy feel, and the art is very well done. I'm really looking forward to this.

RaisedByMongrels | January 06, 11:34 CET

*tearing up now*

TheZeppo | January 06, 11:51 CET

I bet you the Serenity shirt was a gift from Xander.

[ edited by Tymen on 2007-01-06 13:15 ]

Tymen | January 06, 15:12 CET

I'm getting more and more uneasy about references to all this 'gun stuff'. Buffy was always dead against using such things in the past, and all the modern combat gear. Not keen either.

Buffy/Guns...Joss, say It ain't so.

sueworld2003 | January 06, 15:40 CET

Poster anyone?

TaraLivesOn | January 06, 15:45 CET

Buffy/Guns...Joss, say It ain't so.

It ain't so. Oh, yeah, I'm not Joss! (In my dreams...)

But you can clearly see on page four that she's using it to destroy an energy barrier around whatever it is she and the other Slayers are breaking into. And on page five Buffy says "Field's vaped and we're on the roof", as in "the field has been vaporised".

So it's some kind of energy weapon... not a gun. And we have no reason to believe it could be used against other people.

It's no different than her using the rocket launcher in season two. In fact, it's probably better than her using a rocket launcher!

I tend to think that Joss would remember something major like Buffy's attitude toward guns.

crossoverman | January 06, 16:15 CET

Poster anyone?

That's my new wallpaper. :)

Derf | January 06, 16:21 CET

TLO - thanks for the very pretty new wallpaper!

catalyst2 | January 06, 16:25 CET

Showing this, and pointing out that page five reveal, to a colleague actually made her cackle.

Craig Oxbrow | January 06, 16:45 CET

The cover art and info for Buffy #2 should be out in the next couple of days.

Simon | January 06, 22:19 CET

Taraliveson--Thanks for the wallpaper!

jcs | January 06, 22:34 CET

Does anyone else feel like they're just sort of covering their tracks for a lame mistake made in Angel that didnt go over well? Regarding the "pg 5 reveal."

numbereleven | January 06, 23:13 CET

Whether it is or not, it doesn't matter. At this point we were waiting how to see how creative the resolution is going to be and it paid off for the fans who stuck with the 'verse.

[ edited by delirium_haze on 2007-01-06 21:33 ]

delirium_haze | January 06, 23:32 CET

I really like that the art so far seems to live up to the Dec. 7 TV Guide interview promise that Buffy et al. wouldn't get fanservice "upgrades"

woo & hoo | January 06, 23:56 CET

Pretty! This is so exciting. But do you think it's gonna address why she decided to get a boob job?

marmoset | January 07, 00:20 CET

Whether it is or not, it doesn't matter. At this point we were waiting how to see how creative the resolution is going to be and it paid off for the fans who stuck with the 'verse.

I hope it wasnt intended to imply I wasnt a part of that.

At any rate, I still feel wanked around... like George Lucas trying to discount the Star Wars Holiday Special. Maybe I just feel like trying to blame all silliness on Andrew is an easy way out. Especially when they didnt seem to ever consider his imput before.

numbereleven | January 07, 01:05 CET

lol, marmoset

TheZeppo | January 07, 01:05 CET

I just finished the last pages of this arc and here you are reading the first. Circle-y. I am serene and at one with the universe. And yet there's this term... 'wanked around'... Hmm.

I love "The Girl in Question". I thought it was hilarious and relevent and everyone involved was at the top of their game. When I started writing the comic I had Buffy with the Immortal but it felt wrong. It was important for Angel and Spike to know she had moved on, but it was equally important for Buffy to be where she is in this comic book. And I realized Andrew WOULD have thought this up, and would have thought it was hilarious (plus the wink at the fact that everyone knew that was a double in the ep was fun). As for his input -- he was running the L.A. slayer unit in season 5 of Angel, so it's safe to assume he's got some cred. You could call this wank, but you could say the same about any retcon -- like Spike loving Buffy from the start and not realizing it, which worked for me just great, especially 'cause it had the chaos demon standing around with his antlers dripping (good times, good times). Anyway, it's idiotic for me to defend the work -- you either dig or you don't. But the part that keeps stopping me is this: why on Earth WOULDN'T George Lucas discount the Star Wars Holiday Special?

"But... how do you kill a thing... that has no life?"

Ranty, -j.

joss | January 07, 01:38 CET

Rant away, boss. I thought it was a great reveal and I laughed out loud.

TamaraC | January 07, 01:52 CET

Put me down as another one who loved that moment.

Derf | January 07, 01:56 CET

Yeah, I in no way feel cheated or wanked around by that reveal. Honestly, to me, retcon or not, it felt completely natural and right to me when I hit that bit. Sometimes even things that might or might not be retconny just turn out, by dint of creative accident, to be pretty perfect. Like how the retcon of River's direct rescue by Simon suddely gave all this lovely new texture to Simon's character in the series.

(Ooh, look, I used the word "dint"!)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2007-01-06 23:57 ]

The One True b!X | January 07, 01:56 CET

I dig! I laughed. I was intrigued. I can't wait. (It was better than CATS!)
Joss (Mr. Whedon?) (Master Joss?), with a fanbase this large, someone's always gonna feel "wanked" by whatever you do. I'm just grateful for more product from the strange and beautiful place that is your brain.
Gushy, Heather

orphea | January 07, 02:05 CET

Like I said before,I love it.

Buffyfantic | January 07, 02:06 CET

I like the retroactive spin it puts on Andrew in Damage and The Girl in Question, too. Andrew the vengeful nerd is still a nerd but getting over big time on the jocks and giggling away inside. Talk about "wanked around."

dreamlogic | January 07, 02:17 CET

I have never bought a comic book... ever. But, come March I'm gonna be flipping through the yellow pages for comic book shops! Thanks for keeping the 'verse alive and kicking Joss!

greenhair00 | January 07, 02:22 CET

Joss (Mr. Whedon?) (Master Joss?)...

We should just all call him Mister J. (in a Harley Quin voice, obviously). :-)

Niels | January 07, 02:42 CET

Well personally I was thrilled with the whole 'double' explanation, it suits the facts, the underlying feelings, and it delights my soul. There are some fans who still feel wanked about Spike wanting his soul. *eyeroll* There is just no talking to some people!
I am so excited to read Buffy's season 8, I've been rereading Fray and thinking we should get all the seasons that lead up to the world we find in Fray (I don't ask for much).

embers | January 07, 02:44 CET

"But... how do you kill a thing... that has no life?"

WoW, Joss watches South Park :). And what server are you on Joss?

GimpyD | January 07, 02:49 CET

double post...

[ edited by GimpyD on 2007-01-07 00:51 ]

GimpyD | January 07, 02:49 CET

Wow. Um. Whoa... haha. Here I was just trying to start a discussion and see if anyone felt an inkling in the other direction, and I get an explanation straight from Joss. Thanks!

It should be known that I also loved "The Girl in Question," and that's mostly due to the fact that Andrew is one of my favorite characters in the series. In, well, both series. It's made me a huge fan of Tom Lenk.

As a writer, I do completely see your side of things, and probably would have done something similar. And, as the same, I'll constantly try to pick everything apart. I guess I got the rebuttal I was looking for.

That being said, I'm also a huge fan of Star Wars, and OWN the Star Wars Holiday Special...

numbereleven | January 07, 02:54 CET

Dear Mr. Joss,

LOVE IT! Oh, I have been looking forward to this book for a while. Love the P5 reveal!! Squee!

Thanks ever so!

XanFan32 | January 07, 03:17 CET

GimpyD: I've noticed Joss channelling South Park before. I don't know if he means to, but it seeps through, like garlic in the skin.

numbereleven: you OWN the Star Wars Holiday Special? Oh my! Hee!

gossi | January 07, 03:20 CET

There are some fans who still feel wanked about Spike wanting his soul. *eyeroll* There is just no talking to some people

Well,I can understand that.I can buy that Spike wanted his soul and accept that is what the writers attended but for other fans,it sure didn't play that way on-screen.I get that it was supposed to be a big 'gotcha' but in this case,maybe things should of been played slightly different in some way.I think when the writers have to repeatedly explain what was going on then they might have gone too far in order to fool viewers.

Wow. Um. Whoa... haha. Here I was just trying to start a discussion and see if anyone felt an inkling in the other direction, and I get an explanation straight from Joss. Thanks!

It should be known that I also loved "The Girl in Question," and that's mostly due to the fact that Andrew is one of my favorite characters in the series. In, well, both series. It's made me a huge fan of Tom Lenk.

As a writer, I do completely see your side of things, and probably would have done something similar. And, as the same, I'll constantly try to pick everything apart. I guess I got the rebuttal I was looking for.

That being said, I'm also a huge fan of Star Wars, and OWN the Star Wars Holiday Special...

I will admit,I really disliked TGIQ.It just left a bad taste in my mouth although I loved the Illyria/Fred and Wes stuff with Fred's parents.So the season 8 spoilers tickle me pink because it does fix things I didn't like while at the same time,making total sense.I can totally buy the explanation that it wasn't really Buffy in TGIQ and the fake dating The Immortal was Andrew's idea.To me that's a great continuation of Andrew being the storyteller.

ETA

I've never even seen the Star Wars Holiday Special.Maybe Lucas will change his mind about releasing it.He changes his mind on everything else.lol

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-01-07 01:22 ]

Buffyfantic | January 07, 03:20 CET

Buffyfantic: The beginning 8 minutes of the Star Wars Holiday Special

It's when you get to the bit saying "his dad Itchy and his son Lumpy" that you KNOW it's gonna be GREAT! Maybe the comics will introduce Buffy's brother, Scratchy.

[ edited by gossi on 2007-01-07 01:35 ]

gossi | January 07, 03:27 CET

I've never even seen the Star Wars Holiday Special.Maybe Lucas will change his mind about releasing it.He changes his mind on everything else.lol

Hahahahah... oh my, did I have a hearty laugh at this. He'll re-release it with new scenes, CGI characters, and edit out Bea Arthur. In this case, messing with it could only improve.

numbereleven | January 07, 03:29 CET

I remember watching the Star Wars Holiday Special while it aired. I suddenly feel cool.

For Andrew to have created TGIQ scenario feels as natural as ~~sex~~ oops! breathing.

Thanks for the update Joss! Happy freakin' New Year to you and your family!!!

ETA: So can we consider Chewie's family canon?

[ edited by April on 2007-01-07 01:42 ]

WhoIsOmega? | January 07, 03:35 CET

Joss quotes good and tickled me pink (or purple.) A favourite show and a great episode.

I checked out the Season 8 preview last night, and, like The Zeppo, teared up, and like others, laughed and liked it.

As one who is still patiently waiting for the fulfillment of Joss's "promised" ANDREW: The Musical, all hail to storylines that develop his role in the Buffy-world.

More importantly, I just dug the whole thing, and it felt right. As His Purple Postage wrote, you either dig it or you don't.

I also liked Joss's slayer smiley-button reference (as I interpreted it) to the Watchmen smiley button.

Finally, yesterday while looking on the innertubes for a photo of Joss for a Goners-posting (don't ask) I happened upon this photo (which I've cropped down) of Joss with George Lucas at the June, 2006 AFI Conservatory Commencement.

I like to call it "The Two Masters."

(Apologies to Joss for the photo, which has apparently caught him in a facial moment that few would appreciate being immortalized...)

QuoterGal | January 07, 03:47 CET

quotergal... what a photo op. That's my entire life of fandoms in one picture.

numbereleven | January 07, 03:53 CET

Thanks Gossi.I'm going to watch it right now.It may be a train wreck but it's a train wreck I got to see.lol

And yeah,I wouldn't be surprised if George Lucas eventually releases it.He changes his mind on everything.

1)He would never do the prequel trilogy.He did.
2)He would not release any Star Wars film on DVD until after Episode III came out.He did.
3)He would not release the original trilogy on DVD untill Episodes I-III came out on DVD.Well,guess what,he did.
4)He would not release the original versions of the original trilogy on DVD ever.This past September he went and released them.

Buffyfantic | January 07, 03:54 CET

Oh yes, happy new year to JW.

Here's the star wars holiday special in 5 minutes (edited from 2 hours): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asnVcbWQ2cg.

gossi | January 07, 03:56 CET

Just like some alcoholic beverages or oolong tea, I realized sometime ago, that most of things that Joss created, just gets better with time.

I spent the whole New Year's Eve with my friends, within other things, we spent a lot of time continueing the group Buffy Marathon that we started a while ago, and we re-watched most of Season 6 and almost the first half of Season 7.

Although owning a Chosen Collection myself, and when I have time to pop in a disk I tend insert any random disk, and only watch the episodes in that disk, never giving the viewing a proper continuity.

Some episodes that I only watched once or twice, in that new viewing during our marathon, seemed even better than I remember from before.

As I commented before I'm really looking forward to season 8, it makes me glee almost as much like when we were watching new promos or seeing new promo pics for a new live action season.

I love TGIQ, being the one really light-hearted episode right before the chaos went down to the fang gang and a bit after all the mess that Fred's death and Illyria appearing caused. It allowed Spike and Angel to deal with a lot of things from their past, including Buffy. Although the title was "That Girl in Question", the episode was definetely about those two guys.
The reveal from page 5, actually makes me smirk, about all those comments about how weirdly or badly was done that scene with the - now literally - Buffy double dancing and moving her hair.

Onto retconning stuff. If things get bad, we can start balming those Superboy punches. Ha - bad joke for other DC Comics readers.

Numfar PTB | January 07, 04:03 CET

LOVE the pg 5 reveal! :D

Never seen the SW holiday special, no idea what it's about- though somehow have an image of Stormtroopers singing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" while dancing in a cancan line. Go figure.

Trek_Girl42 | January 07, 04:09 CET

I don't feel wanked around by the Buffy/Immortal reveal...to me it feels right (for Buffy and Andrew). If anything the thing that had me so unsettled was TGIQ's portrayal of Buffy so this new reveal has me all giddy and thankful. lol So thanks Joss!

maje | January 07, 04:14 CET

though somehow have an image of Stormtroopers singing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" while dancing in a cancan line. Go figure.

If only it was that good. Cancan-dancing Stormtroopers would be an improvement!

crossoverman | January 07, 04:21 CET

That bad huh..... :S

Trek_Girl42 | January 07, 04:36 CET

I thought it was fine for Buffy to be moving on in TGIQ, but this is much more hi-larious, and sensible at the same time. Well played, Joss, sir, well played! Good to hear from you! (And, gods, is the 'Verse busy on the interwebs all of a sudden -- there's a new blog from James Gunn today, an almost new one from Nathan, and this new Joss post -- rockin'!) :-)

billz | January 07, 04:36 CET

There are some fans who still feel wanked about Spike wanting his soul.

Heh, tickled by this trans-Atlantic usage difference. Next time someone asks how I feel I may reply 'Wanked' just to see what happens ;).

Just skimmed the thread with one eye shut and haven't read the preview (crazy spoiler boy) but i'm not a huge fan of TGiQ so if it's being wanked away I won't particularly miss it (not that the comics qualify as fan-wank - assuming that's what people actually mean rather than just colloquial British English for 'a bit rubbish' - since Joss is writing it. Or do fan-wank and retcon mean the same thing now ? Struggling to keep up with the crazy rollercoaster ride we call 'English'. Or used to, maybe 'English' is just sooo twentieth century and it's now Internetglish or Web2.0glish or something ;).

Liked the idea of Spike and Angel getting to a place where they're kind of 'finished baking' re: Buffy but for me it felt a bit filler-ish and since Angel (when signing the Shanshu prophecy away without skipping a beat) and Spike (with his 'effulgent' moment in NFA) both had great character resolutions anyway i'd rather have had more of Illyria or maybe have had the Black Thorn fleshed out a bit more.

(and i'd heard tales of dire woe regarding the Star Wars Holiday Special but those google extracts leave me feeling, well, kinda wanked ;)

Saje | January 07, 04:41 CET

Hahaha, Saje... even though I'm the one that used the term, and am american... I completely feel ya on the paragraph about language and terms nowadays.

numbereleven | January 07, 04:50 CET

QuoterGal, that "facial moment" is nothing. Check what I did to poor Brett Matthews at Backup Bash.

The One True b!X | January 07, 05:09 CET

I think I'm officially the biggest fan in the world of "The Girl in Question" -- I loved the idea of Buffy being with some new Immortal guy who wasn't Angel or Spike and who has a past with the Fanged Four. But I also kind of love the retcon (and that just means "retroactive continuity," yes? It doesn't necessarily mean anything was changed) -- because I remember saying at the time that we only have Andrew's word for Buffy/Immortal, and that Andrew's previously been well-established as an unreliable narrator. It's just kind of funny to me that people who didn't like the ep in the first place are upset to see the story "changed."

likeadeuce | January 07, 05:10 CET

And then there's Star Wars Holiday Special!

It has Maude in it! It has Maude in it! She's singing and dancing in a Tatooine bar! Her character's name is Ackmena! It's poetry! It sounds like dancing!

I have to have it, I have to have it, I have to have it, I have to have it. Oh, my sweet truss, I have to have it!

*waves great wads of cashy money!*

It has Ed Norton in it! It has Ed Norton in it! Jefferson Starship appears and sings the song "Light the Sky on Fire"!!

Oh, sweet Jesus, why has no one given this to me? How did I not, for all these years, understand how wonderful this is! Pat Proft & Bruce Vilanch worked on this! It is the Kitsch of All Kitsches! Ken and Mitzie Welch deserve a star on the Hollywood Walk-of-Fame, right in front of Frederick's of Hollywood!

It rules the universe! Let all bow down before it! gossi, thank you so much for this tiny glimpse of its beautiful richness! I am left both a bigger and more bereft person because of it!

Okay, yeah, I am looking forward to the Season 8 Buffy comic, but meanwhile, I have this magical extravaganza to obsess about!

*vows to locate it before another 24 hours has passed!*

ETA: Yeah, b!x, I saw that when you posted it. Most unfortunate! For some reason, it reminded me of Beany and Cecil, I'm not sure which.

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2007-01-07 03:19 ]

QuoterGal | January 07, 05:17 CET

THIQ was one of those rare times where Mutant Enemy took the Stargate approach and pitched the episode (with a certain message) directly at the die-hard fans. It was never intended for the casual viewer.

Simon | January 07, 05:32 CET

I love TGIQ and always have. I just find this sort of retcon a little bit pointless to be honest. Why have it be a con on the boys, why not just say she was playing The Immortal, end of. It smacks of shipper appeasement to me, and never having been one (until S5 and Spangel that is) I don't see the point. And I can see why Andrew would play a prank on Angel, but he cares about Spike so why deliberately con him.

But given that I'm on the record as saying I wont be buying these comics I guess I don't really care. :0)

lynnie | January 07, 05:34 CET

'Stargate's a good example Simon because, as with SG1 ep '200', though I thought it had great bits, was funny in parts and was in general enjoyable and still a cut above most other shows at their best, 'The Girl in Question' sometimes seemed like it was trying a bit too hard IMO, maybe a little bit forced.

Everyone's mileage is gonna vary though.

Saje | January 07, 05:47 CET

"but it was equally important for Buffy to be where she is in this comic book"

Hmmm, my only question would be why thats important. Was it because Joss saw the reaction TGIQ got (Note: I wasnt around in the fandom when TGIQ aired so I go by the best accounts that I can, including here at the Whedonesque archive)? Was it just that Joss wanted to tell a story so he changed it? Like Numbereleven, I too felt that way, that once the big page 5 reveal was actually revealed that it was more a product of a "wank", and of course, the question then becomes, whether Joss changed it because of fan reaction or story-line consideration, given that originally he had Buffy with The Immortal.

Mark Twain once said that a lie can get around the world before the truth can get its pants on, and in that sense, I think motivations matter behind the "wank". For me, whether it was a retcon or wank or whatever, its like Joss said "hey look at this great episode--I love the message and everything else--but im going to change it because the story says so or because fans didnt like it". Which ever one is true, for me, Twain was right, and once you brand someone, especially three years before you try to put the truth out there, the lie will always be more powerful. Thats my big problem, and its made worse if Joss did it because of the reaction TGIQ recieved. Because in the end, I dont care what the truth was, the lie is always more powerful.

jerryst3161 | January 07, 05:50 CET

But I don't think the "wank" changes what's important in TGIQ. The message and story (re: Angel and Spike) stays the same.

It seems to me people are coming at this from a number of different angles, which is interesting. Personally, I like the retcon cause it's clever and funny, not because I ever disliked TGIQ (I didn't).

jam2 | January 07, 05:57 CET

And I can see why Andrew would play a prank on Angel, but he cares about Spike so why deliberately con him.

Because, as clear from the 5-page preview, there was an important strategy in place. Why jeopardize that strategy for any reason, if Andrew at that point was committed to the slayer mission?

The One True b!X | January 07, 05:59 CET

Hmmm, my only question would be why thats important

Jerry, I think you'll have to buy the comic to find out :o)

In fairness, I'm not going to question Joss about any of it. He knows how to tell a story, and if he's thinking about the emotional and practical side of Buffy Summers and friends, I'm a happy boy. Although Ugly Betty makes me happy, so maybe I'm easily pleased?

gossi | January 07, 06:22 CET

I loved the Girl In Question it was one of my favorite episodes in Season 5 of Angel. I have to agree with Simon about this episode was meant for die hard fans like us but never for the casual viewer. While I'm anxious to see start reading the season 8 comics. I have to wonder about the Angel are fans ever going to see him again ?

lstevens | January 07, 06:28 CET

I had two major problems with TGIQ: its wacky tone really played havoc with where the story was headed (like Go Fish really needed to not be before Becoming) AND the fact that Buffy was dating some immortal guy - which seemed to be the antithesis of her "still baking" and ignores the problem she's always had with dating vampires: she's still human, it'll never work.

The tone is always going to be a problem. And the fact that the episode is supposed to be about Spike & Angel moving on... and yet they still don't is maddening.

What the comic does is put Buffy back as the focus. Angel & Spike still dealt with their problems (or not). But Buffy hadn't put aside saving the world to date The Immortal. So my second problem with TGIQ is solved.

And what drove Joss to do this? The story. As he says, it's important for Buffy's story, so he did it. I'd love to know the nitty-gritty details of why he did it, purely because I am interested in how and why writers make a choice. But, frankly, all that would achieve here is making some people mad.

What's important is - he did it for Buffy.

crossoverman | January 07, 06:30 CET

I loved the Girl In Question it was one of my favorite episodes in Season 5 of Angel. I have to agree with Simon about this episode was meant for die hard fans like us but never for the casual viewer. While I'm anxious to see start reading the season 8 comics. I have to wonder about the Angel are fans ever going to see him again ?

I agree.....and disagree.....to hell with decisiveness!

TGiQ was the second(or first full) Buffyverse episode I ever saw (after seeing 3/4 of "Smile Time" :D). And I loved it, however at the time only on the pure entertainment level. It was FUNNY, and straight forward in that sense. However watching it the second time (after having seen most of Angel) there was a lot more to be had from the episode, so I think it can really go both ways.

I love the idea that it turns out Spike and Angel were chasing the wrong girl all along- as it was never about Buffy, it was all about them.

Trek_Girl42 | January 07, 06:45 CET

As I said on the original thread about the p5 reveal. it made me laugh and want to buy these comics. I had nothing against TGIQ, though I was not its biggest fan (fun, but something missing) and I always thought there were twists being set-up for who The Immortal actually was. We kept hearing about him from such different perspectives, and none of them seemed quite real. I just thought this was great, though.

newcj | January 07, 07:04 CET

I agree with Jam2: "But I don't think the "wank" changes what's important in TGIQ. The message and story (re: Angel and Spike) stays the same."
Angel and Spike were behaving foolishly (losing their heads, did you read Shadowkat's review?) over Buffy, so in fact the comic book retcon fits perfectly, they were fooled. In this way the episode is all the more meaningful, while showing that Buffy was not wasting time pretending to be Paris Hilton (God forbid). I can only say again, I love everything I've seen of Buffy's Season 8 and I wish it was starting this month!

embers | January 07, 07:04 CET

About that Serenity Shirt Buffy appears to be wearing...
Hope she got it from a Licensed Vendor! *wink*

TDBrown | January 07, 07:31 CET

Oh TDBrown, Universal didn't license a red sleaveless T-shirt, I'm thinking Dawn printed out the Serenity logo onto an iron-on transfer and made the shirt for Buffy. But what I'm worried about is where did that black haired slayer get ahold of Molly (Runaways) Haye's Hello Kitty hat?

embers | January 07, 07:47 CET

All of this being said, I forgot to mention the reason I'm really REALLY excited about the Buffy comic.

New costumes. Yes, I'm a costuming nerd... comic costumes are usually at least a bit cooler than normal tv costumes. And Buffy's commando thing at the beginning is just great.

And, sidenote: has there been any word on the surviving potentials we already know? I belive Vi made it through, but she was helping someone I dont remember... and her fate was questionable. Anyone know if they'll be cameoing?

[ edited by numbereleven on 2007-01-07 05:49 ]

numbereleven | January 07, 07:48 CET

Yes, Vi made it, and she was helping Rona, who had a serious-looking neck wound. I wouldn't mind seeing them again, but have no idea if they'll appear.

dreamlogic | January 07, 07:59 CET

I'm sure Kennedy will still be around. Whenever Willow shows up... I think Joss is keeping Willow from us, because he's a big meanie - and also a tease!

crossoverman | January 07, 08:02 CET

Gah. Andrew never had an original idea or thought. To think that he came up with the whole cover for B is just asinine. I'm so large with the Andrew hate. Give the innovation to Xander! That stupid and insig character stole so much from what Xander could've contributed. The only reason Andrew even figured into it is because the actor was available. Bleah.

Willowy | January 07, 08:28 CET

Wow! Sometimes I am pretty glad that I never got involved in the Buffy/Angel online fandom. I didn't know that people had such negative views about such fantastic shows.

Edited to say: That sounded harsher than I intended.

[ edited by TamaraC on 2007-01-07 06:48 ]

TamaraC | January 07, 08:41 CET

I always assumed it was a total Scooby job, and also that Andrew delivered the news just because he was the one on the west coast (or wherever) at the time. And that Buffy was just taking a break between really important stuff to go dancing. I never had anyone to talk about it with, though; no one else I knew was into Buffy except Gorramsister who lost interest (O.O BLASPHEMER!!!). But I'm just as happy to be wrong. And still haven't read the spoiler cuz I'm pretty new to comics and want pristinity when I finally read it. *smiles happily in anticipation*

cabri | January 07, 09:00 CET

Gotta disagree with the J-Man a bit. Spike was a secondary character at the time of "Lovers Walk," and his behaviour made sense both at the time (pining over Dru) and when retconned, oh so brilliantly, in "Fool For Love." Buffy is the character around whom the 'verse centred for many a year, and for our only glimpse of her after "Chosen" to be as the vapid party girl clinging to The Guy That Every Other Woman Falls For after "Chosen" seemed to imply she was past that just feels wrong. Waiting several years to provide an explanation doesn't quite sit right either.

That said, I still don't think it's a huge problem, at least for me. It's in no way as elegant as the "Fool For Love" retcon (or the "Becoming, Part 2" retcon of Angel seeing Buffy, or the "Darla" retcon of Angel pretending not to have a soul...), I had already wanked that the Buffy we saw in the episode wasn't really Buffy anyway--or at the least that Buffy had not turned vapid, and that there was still depth to the girl. (The aforementioned) Shadowkat's essay helped a lot, actually; the episode is about Angel and Spike, running around looking for a two-dimensional babe that doesn't really exist. And so the real Buffy is no more in that episode than, well, the real Fred is.

Seriously looking forward to the comics. Is it March yet?

WilliamTheB | January 07, 09:02 CET

I love the innertubes! I have found what I was looking for, and I am walking on air! And then there's Ackmena!

Even though George Lucas has apparently said something to the effect "that if he had the time and a hammer, he would track down every bootlegged copy of that program and smash it..."

I gave in to my urges and located that which I must have. Sorry, George. It hadda be done...

Oh, yeah, and about all the love/hate/fan character fights/shipping/non-shipping/un-shipping/my character-could-beat-up-your-character?, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum?

In the words of the immortal Willow-Vamp, "Bored now..."

QuoterGal | January 07, 09:02 CET

Seeing the five minute edit of the Star Wars Holiday Special increased my suspicion that I saw it when it aired. I know I certainly would have tried, because I totally obsessed on Star Wars after seeing the movie. But I still really can't remember. Perhaps it's best that it remain dwelling among my other repressed memories. As an adult watching, though, did it seem to anyone else that Mark Hammill was badly messed up in the scene with R2D2 and the Wookies? With the whites all around his eyes and the off-time delivery? That would be in keeping with the times.

Willowy, you keep doing this thing where you deliver these extremely harsh comments on other people's opinions. Then you usually bend back a little, because you really are a reasonable person and do understand that there are other points of view. But that doesn't seem to be where you ever start out from. Could you possibly reverse your horse and cart, or at least delay giving your immediate reaction until you've thought it over?

Consider, I will fight you forever over Andrew, even though he's far from my favorite character.

dreamlogic | January 07, 10:51 CET

QG, I know this is getting hammered to death, but my little typing fingers are screaming, time for my boring interpretation of TGIQ versus S8! So, feel free to watch a video (perhaps The Star Wars Holiday Special!) during the following: ;-)

So, in TGIQ, we see Buffy dancing away in an Italian nightclub with an assumably attractive being called the Immortal, whom we find out from flashbacks really knows how to please the ladies. So, good for her! Buffy took time to party at the Bronze all the time when she was a Sunnydale resident, and, she had attractive and immortal boyfriends during much of that time. Just having a good time with a boyfriend doesn't suddenly make Buffy shallow or not the Slayer or not Buffy, even if this time she's in Italy instead of Cali. The question is, as crossoverman pointed out, had she put aside saving the world altogether to date The Immortal? My opinion at the time, like cabri's, was no, Buffy's just taking a nice break with her current flame. Who is neither Angel nor Spike (nor Riley, for that matter). I think that was perfectly in keeping with Buffy as the Slayer, and with the lads and their unresolved issues, to say: she is living her life, and not with you; everybody, get a grip and move on (which, really, Angel and Spike had to do in order to be prepared to become champions of the world willing to sacrifice themselves in NFA; if they were still rivals for Buffy hoping to reunite with her, could they really have worked together and accepted the risk of death?). Worked fine at the time.

But now I can see that Joss wants to tell an even deeper story: Buffy, in fact, did not have time for a nice vacation or break when she suddenly had 1800 slayers to think about and lead. So, although there's nothing wrong with nightclubbing with your honey, in this case there was no time. Good way to retcon. Now, as far as Andrew, IMO I really believe in his willingness to emulate Giles and take Watcher training seriously. (I mean, think for a second about HeadBoy!Wes we saw when he took that everybody-go-back-to-high-school potion [sorry, can't remember the ep name, the one Lorne narrated] -- what a prat! Could you ever see that guy maturing into Dark!Wes? And yet he did! Well, I think Annoying!Andrew could mature into Useful!Andrew.) Andrew could easily have blended his past ability for storytelling with his new job of protecting slayers by cooking up a story to protect Buffy very well -- after all, if Spike and Angel bought that the nightclub blonde was Buffy, then certainly all her enemies would as well. And if the enemies bought that she was on vacation with her boyfriend, then maybe they would get a false sense of security that Team Slayer (because this was way bigger than the Scoobies by then) wasn't as organized a threat as they thought. *voice of Nelson from Simpsons* Ha-Ha! Jokes on the enemies. And, Willowy, Xander is busy at Scooby headquarters doing depth perception exercises and something really important, like using his military background to organize the entire army, not just the Italian or Los Angeles batallions. ;-)

billz | January 07, 11:20 CET

"Gotta disagree with the J-Man a bit. Spike was a secondary character at the time of "Lovers Walk," and his behaviour made sense both at the time (pining over Dru) and when retconned, oh so brilliantly, in "Fool For Love." Buffy is the character around whom the 'verse centred for many a year, and for our only glimpse of her after "Chosen" to be as the vapid party girl clinging to The Guy That Every Other Woman Falls For after "Chosen" seemed to imply she was past that just feels wrong. Waiting several years to provide an explanation doesn't quite sit right either."

Agreed. You know the saddest thing for me? Im a regular at TWOP, I love that site, but no matter what Joss says many dont feel like the comic is canon. I tried once to defend Buffy in TGIQ with the P5 reveal and it didnt go over because they dont consider that canon. To them, its fanfiction that just so happens to be written by Joss.

I never disliked TGIQ for what it said about Angel and Spike, but I did dislike it for what it said about Buffy. You wanna know what the worst thing you can do to a writer is? Call him/her a plagarist. And no matter how much that writer then proves that he didnt plagarize something, that stigma will always be with him. Waiting three years to fix this problem, like William, just seems wrong to me because I still cant get past the stigma that Buffy is vapid and living in Rome like Paris Hilton.

Needless to say, I wont be buying the comics. Sorry Gossi...

jerryst3161 | January 07, 11:22 CET

Joss, you NEED to put up an article (or just make it a book) where you discuss the extent of your involvement in every episode along with giving some discussion on what you thought of them. I'd pay money to read that! Come on... you know you want to.

mikejer | January 07, 11:27 CET

I tried once to defend Buffy in TGIQ with the P5 reveal and it didnt go over because they dont consider that canon. To them, its fanfiction that just so happens to be written by Joss.

Erm, well that's just silly. It's Joss' creation, Joss is writing it, he says it's canon. So it's canon.

Now, granted, I see the canon issue as a three-part deal. There's canon, community canon, and personal canon -- which really are just terms of convenience to make it easier to talk with people in different camps.

But, still, if those people don't think something Joss says is canon in fact is canon, they're deluding themselves. But, of course, there's nothing wrong with them having their own community canon. I just think they should be honest about that instead of saying something isn't canon when it is. Heh.

The One True b!X | January 07, 11:35 CET

b!x - so glad you posted in such a reasonable tone. Otherwise I might have had to post something along the lines of "HEY PEOPLE (and yes, I probably would have been shouting!), this is WHEDONesque, not TWOPesque or me-esque! If Joss says it's canon, it is. End. Of. Story." but, of course, your far more restrained post removed the need for me to say that so there is nothing for people to be offended at from me.

catalyst2 | January 07, 11:55 CET

Billz, my concern about Buffy dating The Immortal was more than the fact she might have been taking a break to have a dance. It was the fact she has again fallen for the wrong guy... and essentially duped into a relationship with a man who is basically impossible to say no to. TGIQ makes it clear that everyone falls for The Immortal... and given it was our last canon view of Buffy, it was extremely disappointing. (I didn't particularly like to see Dru and Darla being so completely vapid and head-over-heels about The Immortal either. Another case of... really? That's the last we'll see of those two? But at least with them, it was the past...)

Now we have new canon. The fact it's taken three years, jerryst3161, seems irrelevant. I'm just glad Joss came to his senses and realised that Buffy needed to be single in Season 8. If she had returned yet again dating the wrong guy, then I would have been upset. No longer.

crossoverman | January 07, 11:58 CET

In the name of all crap that's holy, these are some sweet-looking pages! I already have a standing order set with a friend who''ll be picking them up in another town, but he's a good 40 minutes away, and I don't know how I'm going to stop myself from running out to buy an extra copy the second they come out nearer-by. Very possibly I won't. (Hey, I may be this 'verse's bitch, but at least I'm woman enough to admit it.)

And ... I just realized the first issue is scheduled to come out before the end of the Buffy class sessions and the mini-con, *boggles* which means I'll be able to discuss it with other fans in real-time *boggles more* ... which is a first, since I never knew any flesh 'n' blood BtVS fans during the show's first run.

I just have to say thank you, Joss, for the wonderment that is about to unfold, and for the pleasure of knowing these characters that live and breath as much as we all love them. As far as I'm concerned, you can retcon and fanwank to your little heart's content. You're the storyteller and they're your toys, after all -- I'm just damn happy to be sitting in your sandbox these days. Let the tales begin. I'm all ears!

Wiseblood | January 07, 12:03 CET

OMG..yes Bixy! It's canon, it's JOSS. We have more Buffy! Deal, shippers.

Charmuse | January 07, 12:50 CET

Ah, no, my dear billz, don't misunderstand me - of course, we are all here to discuss the meaning of Whedon-creations and their significance, and new information will always call forth intelligent discussion, as is inevitable and welcome.

What I get tired of are the same old objections and shopworn grievances - to characters, old storylines, Buffy and Angel seasons and plots and twists, relationships, etc., etc. I avoided these like the plague when the shows were on, and it's years later and the same stuff gets chewed over and over like gum that should have been spit out years ago, sometimes on a level that would disgrace a group of first-graders.

It reminds me of family gatherings when Aunt Justine gets all sputtery about Great-Grandmother's butterdish and she has to air her story all over again and you can hear it coming and you want to run but you're polite and she's old so you listen to it for the seventeenth time and inside you wish either she or you were dying or dead.

And rather than risk becoming exactly like Aunt Justine, I won't mention this my personal grievance again, but truly had to state it once and be done with it.

But boring, you, billz, my friend? Never.

BUFFY: I'm telling you, I, I think there's something about this thing.
XANDER: Well, I don't know, Buff. It seems like we've been through every book.
ANYA: Yeah, even the ones that weren't so boring you wanted to kill yourself.
XANDER: We have those?
- "Smashed"

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2007-01-08 05:11 ]

QuoterGal | January 07, 13:09 CET

Huh. Am I the only person in the world who wasn't at all bothered that the last we saw of Buffy, she was living the life she'd wanted to live since Season One: happy, carefree, dating, dancing, being a girly-girl? Nowhere in TGIQ was it said that she was madly in love with The Immortal or falling for the wrong guy again. (And Angel's and Spike's opinions aren't Joss' opinions!) I totally don't get why anyone assumed she was in love with him just because they were together for a while. Why couldn't she have been just dating and having some fun? Sure, the world still needs some saving, and there are new Slayers to train, but again, Buffy now gets something she wanted all along: the entire fate of the world not resting on her skinny shoulders alone. Someone else can look after the new Slayers for a while, someone else can slay the demons for a while, while Buffy takes a much-needed and well-deserved vacation, being courted by an irresistable man and having some guiltless fun. It never occurred to me that she was in love with The Immortal, nor that he was in love with her. As for Darla and Dru being "vapid" over The Immortal, please. They had just had some really good sex. Hell, they didn't go chasing after him, clutching his coattails wailing Don't leave me! He came, he pleased the ladies, he taunted the men, he went away; he left the ladies, at least, happy. I didn't mind that our last sight of those two was when they were happy, either, temporary as it was.

TGIQ was supposed to be light-hearted. Not a final summation on the rest of Buffy's life, or even the entirety of her life at that moment. I liked it fine, and while the retcon wipes it out, I don't mind that either. Either version of the story works for me.

zencat | January 07, 13:40 CET

Im a regular at TWOP, I love that site, but no matter what Joss says many dont feel like the comic is canon. I tried once to defend Buffy in TGIQ with the P5 reveal and it didnt go over because they dont consider that canon. To them, its fanfiction that just so happens to be written by Joss.

I just don't get the whole obsession with "Are the new comics canon? and "Are the Angel comics canon?"

Maybe it's because I come from comics, where at certain Distinguished Companies stories fall in and out of canon at the editorial whim of the month--but I figure, who cares? If the stories feel true to the characters and world and accepting them into canon doesn't contradict anything else, why not just accept them?

I actually don't like the retconning of TGIQ, but I don't feel it's worth making a big deal of.

Niels | January 07, 15:05 CET

just don't get the whole obsession with "Are the new comics canon? and "Are the Angel comics canon?"

Begun the canon wars have.

If people don't want to read the comic books, that's fine. I understand that the boycott of the comic by the League of Buffy Season 8 Fanfic Writers is now in its sixth week.

But for the rest of us, it's the continuation of Buffy but in a different medium. And I have a sneaking suspicion that by a process of osmosis (hey that rhymes!) more and more of the waverers will see it as canon.

And if there's so much wank over 5 preview pages, god help us once the actual issue comes out *rolls eyes*.

Simon | January 07, 15:11 CET

Whoa, zencat, it's like you're reading my mind. I agree with everything you say! :-)

And QG, you are right, it's not worth airing the same old arguments about characters, plots, etc. But I thought I was reading an underlying something else in some statements, that was kind of a strange, kinda negative attitude not tied just to this ep, but to assumptions about women who get dressed up and go out on the town.

So, not for the sake of TGIQ, but for the sake of all women who like to dance in nightclubs to have fun -- since when does a woman enjoying a little dancing or a little sex automatically make her vapid? Who says a woman has to be in love to dance with a guy -- maybe it's just fun, no strings for them both? I think that was my big point -- there's a big range between "having fun in a nightclub dancing with your current boyfriend" and "Paris Hilton-level vapid." I believe there are many factors that help determine where one falls in this spectrum, such as: several quarts of alcohol and/or powdery substances derived from coca or poppy; the wearing of panties when out in public; dancing with your boyfriend versus sex in the rest room with strangers; and going to work the next morning (or whenever the workday starts) versus showing up several hours late and hung over. Like zencat said, Buffy was just enjoying some fun, being-a-young-woman time; it didn't seem she suddenly had a lobotomy. I mean, sheesh, if a guy goes out dancing in a nightclub with his sexy girlfriend, do we call him vapid? I'm just sayin'.

Well, here endeth my opinions about this TGIQ-related discussion. I really am not so into it that it's worth arguing any further. Agreed, Simon, I sure hope this doesn't end up in a giant, worldwide, interwebs wankathon. (Yet another of my statements that sounded so much better in my head than on the page.) Just wanted to have my girl Buffy's back when she took some time off to go out clubbing with her newest hottie, yo. ;-)

ETA: BTW, QG, I was trying to give you a good excuse to go and watch that, ahem, interweb find you found, you know, the Tar-say Ars-way Ecial-spay. Was it everything you feared and/or hoped, lol? ;-)

[ edited by billz on 2007-01-07 14:03 ]

billz | January 07, 15:55 CET

I loved this preview, the page 5 reveal (I even said "Aw, poor Angel & Spike.." out loud) and can't wait for the comic. But I also couldn't help thinking how COOL this would be if this was an actual movie.

Coen | January 07, 17:58 CET

Jesus christ, Joss. We're on a hundred posts from *5 pages*. You do realise you're going to crash the internet each time a full issue comes out? If Willow dies the world will explode, also.

gossi | January 07, 18:08 CET

Should have known that Joss had posted in this thread when I saw the comment count had gone into three figures.

Gotta say, TGIQ was one of my favourite episodes of season five. I loved the humour and I thought that David and James were at their best. The one and only issue I had with the episode was it's place in the run of things. Whilst the cancellation obviously meant that it was a now or never deal to tell the story I always feel like it tends to break up the momentum of the "Angel going dark" storyline. Maybe if it had been episode 18 rather than episode 20 it might not have seemd like such a big deal but either way it's only a small niggle at best. Overall though, I liked TGIQ a lot.

As for the comic book series being canon or not being canon, it's canon if Joss says it's canon. Joss says it is. Therefore, it is. Canon, that is.

Technopagan | January 07, 19:45 CET

I do not think any amount of huffing and puffing is going to blow Joss out of his Supreme Commander of the Buffyverse role. Just my opinion.

It seems like sometimes people, not all people of course, forget all about perspective as part of the story...yes and part of life, but that is another subject. ;-) One of the things I love about Joss's stories is the way all the characters have the perspective that they have because of who they are and what they have seen and been through ... and that it is totally different from that of the audience. Usually we know more than the characters, but sometimes we know less or the same amount. We see the tender scenes between characters that other characters don't and we see the emotional pain they shut off in public, even with their friends. Often that is why characters react differently than the audience wants, because the characters have not seen and experienced what we have. Sometimes, however, what they have experienced is held back.

The Angel/Spike storyline in TGIQ was told completely through Angel and Spike's viewpoints, something that seems rare in Joss's shows. (Is there a scene in that storyline without them in it? I'm trying to remember.) That is one of the things that had flags waving in my head that this is not going to turn out to be what it seems. I did not expect this particular fake-out, but as said in my post above in less words, I always expected the reality to be totally different than Spike and Angel's perspective of it led us to believe. The fact that they were not even filtering their earlier memories of him through the we were evil and did not have souls filter was a huge red flag for me. The only concrete thing I felt I got about anyone other than Angel and Spike from that storyline was that Andrew was growing, that this Immortal guy was extremely good at manipulating Angel and Spike, that he was probably going to end up a good guy who had some reason to keep Angel and Spike alive and that his relationship with Buffy is going to turn out to be very different once we got away from Spike and Angel's perspective. Questions I had were more about his actions toward the boys rather than Buffy et al. Maybe it is just me, but I am very careful about the perspective people have about anything when they are jealous. I figured The Immortal used jealousy to blind them to whatever was really going on. That was just my take at the time, I have not really thought about it that much since. I was very surprised people felt the episode said anything about Buffy at all.

newcj | January 07, 20:33 CET

Jesus christ, Joss. We're on a hundred posts from *5 pages*. You do realise you're going to crash the internet each time a full issue comes out? If Willow dies the world will explode, also.

No no no, Gossi. The proper term for this, when discussing comic books, is "break the Internet in half." :-)

Niels | January 07, 21:15 CET

"Break the Internet in half"

A term that has recently become personified by Joe Quesada, it would seem.

Technopagan | January 07, 23:07 CET

I for many, love the nod to TGIQ. I am so excited about this "season." Me, I just want to know what the real Buffy had to think about Angel and Spike showing up there... Are they going to address the whole Spike not dead thing? I soooo can't wait for this to come out!!!!!!!

skye2477 | January 07, 23:29 CET

If Willow dies the world will explode, also.

As long as our wanky little heart doesn't change, I don't care.

Simon | January 07, 23:44 CET

With regards to canonity, can someone explain why these wouldn't be canon? To me it seems like another spin-off from the original Buffy TV show, produced by the creator of said TV show, just like Angel. I didn't watch these shows at the time--were there any debates at the time Angel premiered as to its canonity? (Are there still?)

The only reason I can see for dismissing the comics as non-canon (that wouldn't consequently also dismiss Angel as not part of Buffy canon) is that the actors won't be portraying the characters, and that's something that's unavoidable in the new medium. But I'd understand that, even though I think that's an acceptable trade-off for more ME-alumni-produced stories. I guess the question becomes, how much creative right do the actors have over their characters? The traditional ME answer seems to be "not much" (c.f. Sarah in "Dead Things") but usually "the right to walk away" (c.f. Amber not returning for season seven).

And if it's not about the actors, than it's just another spin-off, like Angel. ("I am NOT like Angel.") If people aren't interested in the comics, that's fine, but I don't quite understand where the "not canon" claims come from. I mean, I stopped watching Enterprise after a season and a half of trying, and tend to ignore it, but just because I ignore it doesn't mean it's not Trek canon. And that's an even more ambiguous case, because the original creator of the universe didn't create/approve of that show; the man he put in charge (Berman) did.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2007-01-07 22:03 ]

WilliamTheB | January 08, 00:02 CET

Comic books spin-offs of television series are usually not canon. But these ones will be, just as a few Babylon 5 comics and novels were canon back in the day. I think it's just a concern over a change in medium, because at least we know it will have the stamp of Joss on it - telling the kinds of stories Joss thinks need to be told. (As opposed to other comics or novels in the Buffyverse, which Joss freely admits he didn't read or have time to approve individually...)

Perhaps in the future there will be levels of Buffy canon, just as there are in the Star Wars universe - with the films being the Supreme level of canon and the expanded universe of books and comics being varying levels of official.

And the Star Wars Holiday Special being wholly-endorsed NOT CANON by George Lucas.

I do feel a little sorry for the Season 8 fic writers who spent so much time... apparently creating a whole lot of AU Season 8 stories. They've been Jossed.

crossoverman | January 08, 00:31 CET

If the Internet breaks in half, how do I know which side I want to make sure I'm on when it's done breaking?

The One True b!X | January 08, 00:54 CET

Oh B!x I hope we all end up on the half with Whedonesque! It would be too hard to keep up with all things Whedon otherwise.

embers | January 08, 01:08 CET

A term that has recently become personified by Joe Quesada, it would seem.

Well, he did invent the term... ;-)

If the Internet breaks in half, how do I know which side I want to make sure I'm on when it's done breaking?

We're at the center of the Breaking, here. I'm sure there'll be pieces of Whedonesque floating around on both halves.

Niels | January 08, 01:31 CET

I for one can't wait to see the Internet break in half. I missed all the original wars because I came into the scene about halfway through S7 and was less-than-Internet savvy at that time. Should be fun to watch. With popcorn.

WhoIsOmega? | January 08, 01:57 CET

TGIQ didn't work for me because I felt that the 2 stories being told should have been 2 stories, 2 episodes. And Buffy wasn't just out for a night of dancing, it seemed to me that she had blown her duties off and was (for once, admittedly) having a grand time in Rome. I much prefer to find out what was really happening and so I loved p.5. But like newcj, the story of the Immortal was so obviously one sided that I never felt I did get the whole story.
Someone above said that they were glad to see that Buffy was, in fact, taking her new responsibilities seriously. So am I. So, thanks Joss. Even these 5 pages have made me very happy.

Lioness | January 08, 02:13 CET

"We're at the center of the Breaking, here. I'm sure there'll be pieces of Whedonesque floating around on both halves."

Only if it is part of Caroline's plan for ultimate world domination. I have faith in the Whedonesque team. I'll bet the Flicker, .org, MySpace etc. diversification is to make sure we all have something to hang on to until we can find the mother ship...or something like that.

newcj | January 08, 02:49 CET

I enjoyed TGIQ when I first watched it (on DVD), but I enjoyed the preview retcon even more, if only because it's the first time I've been party to a retcon in real time. It's exciting!

ArielWillow | January 08, 02:50 CET

I just accompanied my husband to his comic book store of choice (Zeus Comics in Dallas), and we chatted with the owner about Season Eight. He said it's by far his most popular add right now -- sounds like we here are Whedonesque are just the tip of the squee iceberg.

karosurly | January 08, 03:19 CET

I had two major problems with TGIQ: its wacky tone really played havoc with where the story was headed (like Go Fish really needed to not be before Becoming) (...)

And just to show how opinions can differ, that was one of the reasons why I love them, especially on the TGIQ case.

Comic books spin-offs of television series are usually not canon.

In most cases definetely.

That can feat quite well into what
But these ones will be, just as a few Babylon 5 comics and novels were canon back in the day. I think it's just a concern over a change in medium, because at least we know it will have the stamp of Joss on it - telling the kinds of stories Joss thinks need to be told. (As opposed to other comics or novels in the Buffyverse, which Joss freely admits he didn't read or have time to approve individually...)

Just a complementation onto your paranthesis. Fray, Tales of the Slayers and Tales of the Vampires are all canon in some way, with Joss stamp in them. Only there was never such a big fuss over them back when they were released, because this time, we're actually getting a direct continuation to the show, with those same characters.

And if there's so much wank over 5 preview pages, god help us once the actual issue comes out *rolls eyes*.

Good or bad, we have a lot of Buzz.

Numfar PTB | January 08, 03:39 CET

Fray, Tales of the Slayers and Tales of the Vampires are all canon in some way, with Joss stamp in them.

Ah, yes, thanks for clarifying! And you're right - it's the fact Season 8 is a continuation that's the source of concern. For some reason.

crossoverman | January 08, 04:17 CET

Elements introduced in Fray showed up on the series.Things like the slayer origin and the Scythe.The only thing that doesn't match is that Fray hints at the original end for the series that was changed when the show was renewed for season 6-7.The idea that all demons and magic was banished from this plain by a Slayer and her friends in the early 21st Century and no new slayers were called till Fray.This slayer who ended the demonic reign was sucked into the portal with all the demons/magics.

I remember over a year ago in an interview where Joss said he wanted to fix that continuity discrepancy eventually and get from the end of season 7 with dozens of slayers to that point that was shown in Fray where there were no more slayers,demons and magics.

ETA

As for canon,Joss's says it's canon.He's writing arcs in it himself,former show writers will be writing arcs and Joss is overseeing everything.

One of the interesting phenomenas I've seen with this season 8 series is people considering the season 8 comics as canon only if Joss does certain things whether it's featuring a certain character or characters or certain plot points an individual wants addressed.Basically people saying it's only canon if I agree with what Joss does, what he includes and it's what I like.If he doesn't use this character,doesn't do this and that,or he dose do this or that,then it's not and can't be canon.Fans considering it canon only if it suits there purpose.Since it's a comic book or a different medium,they can create an out for what they don't like which they couldn't if it was on-screen.

For me,my opinion is that for better or worse,this is canon.What I mean by for better or worse is that no matter what happens in this series,whether I like a certain development or not,it's canon just like if it were to happen on the shows.

A good example would be is if Joss had decided that Buffy really was dating The Immortal like he was originally going to do.I may not of liked it but I would consider it canon.I'm just glad he changed his mind though because it felt wrong to me too.lol

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-01-08 03:55 ]

Buffyfantic | January 08, 05:33 CET

Well, I didn't peek. I was very tempted. I want to be surprised...like my 5 year old little boy was on Christmas. I can't wait!!

jenofthejungle | January 08, 07:00 CET

I know I'm late to the party what with breaking my wrist and all, but you know Joss has always blown apart things we thought were "givens" in any story. Dead is never really dead. The Immortal isn't necessarily so. Buffy isn't always really Buffy. I think it's a clever way of thinking outside and away from the "Immortal" box, and telling stories he would rather tell.

I'm all in for the ride! Even the pieces of my arm that had to be put back together are excited about season 8.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2007-01-08 06:15 ]

Nebula1400 | January 08, 08:15 CET

Yikes, Nebula1400. What a bummer. I hope you have a quick and painless healing. You have to be able to turn those pages come March. ;-)

newcj | January 08, 09:34 CET

Yikes, Nebula1400. What a bummer. I hope you have a quick and painless healing. You have to be able to turn those pages come March. ;-)

newcj | January 08, 09:36 CET

Good healing to you, Nebula1400; like newcj, I hope it's both swift and pain-free.

I also hope it's not your dominant wrist... Well, that sounds different than I mean it...

QuoterGal | January 08, 09:54 CET

Nebula1400, I'm also wishing you fast and (as much as possible) painless healing of your wrist. Are you typing one-handed now?

I was in my comic store last week picking up the latest AXM, among other things, and I said to the guy at the counter, "Can you add the Buffy comics to my list?" He just looked at me and said, "It's already on there!" Do they know me or what?!

samatwitch | January 09, 07:30 CET

It seems like no one else had exactly the same problem with The Girl In Question that I did. I interpreted Buffy's Chosen cookie-dough-speech as swearing off guys to find herself, which I considered completely asinine and unnecessary (being 13 at the time), but grudgingly accepted. And then TGIQ came on, and she was dating someone else, which, God, if you break up with your boyfriends to grow as a person or whatever, at least stick with it. It was the flaking that struck me as vapid, not the partying. Plus, I was sad that the Gang had seemingly totally dissolved worldwide.

So: Very happy about the comics, and agree with other posters who called the episode even more meaningful now that we know that the 2-D Buffy Angel and Spike were chasing actually wasn't Buffy. Bring on the deep meaningful retcons! Also lovely lovely gorgeous artwork that's now gracing my desktop.

My personal favorite thing, though, is where Buffy goes, "And I've still got my Watcher." I don't know why, but I never really got over the bit at the end of Lies where she slammed the door in Giles' face. It never seemed like they really made it up. And then, to all appearences, they were separated again. I'm just extremely happy that that wasn't the case; I'm rapidly coming to realize the Buffy/Giles is my (totally platonic) OTP.

Spoon! | January 10, 02:04 CET

"I interpreted Buffy's Chosen cookie-dough-speech as swearing off guys to find herself,"

Wow, I never even thought of it being interpreted that way. That *would* make TGIQ seem to be a major character adjustment.

I always assumed that the cookie dough speech was about not putting so much pressure on every relationship. Not expecting each to be the perfect relationship that will last the rest of her life...and then assuming she has failed if it does not work out. I thought she was trying to take the pressure off, trying to just live her life (if she survived) and see who she became. Maybe she would have relationships, maybe not, but she would approach them differently and without such heavy expectations.

newcj | January 10, 02:51 CET

January 06 2007