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February 23 2007

Faith made Maxim's Lust to Hate List. Came in at number 3.

Also, Charisma Carpenter (looking very Stepford Wives) made No. 4 for Kendall Casablancas in 'Veronica Mars' and Melinda Clarke is at No. 8 for Julie from 'The O.C'.

It's a veritable Alexis of Whedonverse bitchiness (is there an actual collective noun for TV bitches ? ;).
Cool Faith mention.
Too bad they didn't use a "Faith" pic. :/
Good point about picture--that getup is very unFaithlike.
I think an Alexis is the proper collective noun for that, Saje, bravo!
That was a pretty unKendall like picture of Charisma Carpenter.

Also, a full Alexis of Whedonverse bitchiness needs to include Stephanie Romanov's Lilah.
Wow, I thought they'd be hard-pressed to trump Faith in this catagory... but no... they did it. Faith is right where she belongs on that countdown- right next to rather classic bitches!
It's interesting Charisma made this list, but that picture....ugh. I am sure they could have found a better one.
Yeah, Lilah should have been there.

And I think that Sunday, from The Freshman episode could have been a great longer-term character. love for Darla and Dru? Certainly Julie and Juliette can match up with anyone!
Have to say I don't care at all for that term being applied to women. I know you all mean it in a snarky TV wench kind of way but still. And I wouldn't categorize Faith as an Alexis at all. She was one of a kind, more of a hurt, evil child than someone who lived to give other people imperious shit, like Cordelia on Buffy, before she *cough* "grew as a person" (to quote Angel on Angel).
How about Sarah Thompson, who played the "liason" for Wolfram and Hart in season five?
It would have been great to see Lilah on there, and how about Darla? But that picture of Charisma - spew!!!
"Defunct"? Buffy still exists.
In re: Sarah Thompson...

I dunno, impalergeneral. To me, Eve never really did anything terrible enough to the Angel crew to push her into the particular pantheon that Maxim has there. She just never seemed evil or sexy enough to warrant strong feelings either way. Maybe that's just me.

And earlier re: Sunday from "The Freshman" Buffy s4e1...

Completely agree, Chris. Neat character for a one-off. Would've been cool to see her interact with the Scoobies later in the season.

BTW, did they ever mention how/who bit Sunday? Mayhap Spike or Angel circa Season 2?

Back to lurking...
It's a veritable Alexis of Whedonverse bitchiness

Now I know this refers to Dynasty, but my first thought was "Who's calling Alexis Denisof a bitch?"
I don't think Faith was really a bitch in the sense they mean. As in a glamorous, spoilt, bitchy sort of a person. Faith was tough, and certainly went to a bad place at one point, but she doesn't really fit the same archetype as the rest of the characters mentioned. She was definitely an enemy at one stage but never really came off with the same vicous insults as Cordelia, for example.

And speaking of Cordelia, I find it weird that Charisma was mentioned for her role in VM rather than as Cordelia. I have only seen the first season of VM (although my season 2 DVD dhould be arriving soon) but I thought her role was only really in the second season. One season on VM compared to three seasons as Cordelia on Buffy and another four on Angel? Kendall must have been a massive bitch to warrant mentioning before Cordelia.

I do think Lilah would perhaps be a better candidate than Faith, not only because she spent seasons deliberately working against Angel and being generally evil for material gain, but she did it with the style of a total bitch, whereas a lot of Faith's anger was directed towards herself but expressed towards others.

I think one of my favourite Whedonverse bitching scenes would be the conversation between Cordelia and Lilah in "Billy", although there is a wealth of Cordy material to choose from. Her sparring with Xander was also excellent, and that scene where she punched the pregnant Darla after being bitten by her.
I think it's funny that they found the most conservative looking picture of Charisma possible (she even wore hot evil maternity wear on Angel for awhile). I think it's also sort of interesting they seem to have actually watched the shows that the actresses are from instead of just judging them based on looks. If they count Heather Locklear twice I'm surprised that didn't happen for Charisma too, except maybe they caught on to the last three seasons of Angel where she niced up considerably.

These all seem to be fairly big names from the different shows though, so I can see why they would gloss over some more accurate though lesser known characters. If only Wonderfalls had run long enough since a goodly majority of that cast were charmingly hateful...
To mr_shemp,
I only included Sarah Thompson because her character was connected to Lindsay and whatever he had planned. It's too bad her role wasn't expanded into something better.
Then again, how come no one has mentioned Claire Kramer, who played Glory in season five of Buffy? That would be a better choice than Thompson.
I'm totally with you Tonya J, I don't think the term 'bitch' should be a term that is 'routinely applied to women' as you put it (I couldn't put it better).

I wouldn't expect any better from Maxim though- it's sexist tripe to begin with.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt that Joss would be proud... he created Faith as a strong female character with ethical issues, not to be dismissed as a 'hot bitch'.

[ edited by zillah on 2007-02-24 04:13 ]
I don't like the term "B----" either but am resolved not to use it myself, I don't pretend I can tell other people what to do.

I sure don't think Faith belongs on this list. She's powerful in a whole other way than the other women on the list. Right sentiment, wrong list.
I also think Darla and Dru and Cordy should have been there. Charisma's role on VMs is a pale imitation of Cordy imo. But, I guess they couldn't fill the list with Buffy/Angel characters. I also wondered why Starbuck and Six from BSG weren't on that list and Karen from "Will & Grace".

Edited to add that I also cringed at the "B" word as a description of these ladies and think of them more as hot chicks with attitude. It particurlarly bugged me with Shannon Doherty because they weren't really discussing a character and more her as a person.

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2007-02-24 06:47 ]
Also, a full Alexis of Whedonverse bitchiness needs to include Stephanie Romanov's Lilah.

Agreed, this is probably only a demi-Alexis ;).

Re: the term bitch, i'm normally very reluctant to throw it around myself (even on the rare occasions I actually mean it i'll usually say 'bint', just sounds less harsh).

However, much as you could argue some of these women shouldn't be on there (Brenda Walsh certainly shouldn't IMO), 'bitch' is not just another way of saying 'hot women with attitude', in fact I find that insulting to, well, hot women with attitude.

The term in common usage means "a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person. esp. a woman". Some of these characters qualify, some arguably don't but aren't we in danger of getting a little bit carried away with political correctness to say a woman can never be called a bitch, even if she is one ? J.R Ewing was not a 'powerful guy with an attitude', he was a complete and utter bastard (note, irrespective of his parents' marital status). If the shoe fits, call it a, err, well-fitted shoe ;). Insults aren't meant to be pleasant, that's what makes them insulting. All just IMO of course, YMMV etc.
Also lusted after Faith, so....Wait a sec!! Same said with Buffy, Willow, Joyce...starting to see a pattern here. Thinking, thinking. Ahh, still thinking.

Oh, it's the moonshadows! I knew it was that Sun thing.

[ edited by Madhatter on 2007-02-24 16:53 ]
Saje – you say you see the word ‘bint’ as less harsh. I have quite the opposite feeling.

In Arabic and Swahili the literal meaning of ‘Bint’ is daughter. The related word Binti means ‘daughter of’ and is similar to ‘Miss’ in the sense of a young woman - past puberty but ‘not yet’ married. Having spent most of my teenage years in East Africa I hear it - when used in English rather than in Swahili - as a supercharged version of slut with strong racial overtones.

The Oxford English Dictionary puts it rather more dryly defining ‘Bint’ thus: “A girl or woman (usu. derog.); girl-friend” and states “The term was in common use by British servicemen in Egypt and neighbouring countries in the wars of 1914-18 and 1939-45.”

Spike uses it in several episodes of Buffy and that had a big impact on me - I found it quite confronting and it really prompted me into thinking much more about his past.

His use of this insult in those examples can be contrasted with the similar sounding, but very different, word he uses for Dawn. He calls her ‘little bit’ – the missing consonant turning the meaning of this word (back) into something closer to its original Arabic/Swahili meaning.
That's interesting purplehazel, another word servicemen brought back with them which entered common usage (like 'pukka' or 'dekko' and I guess further back, 'jodhpur' and 'juggernaut' ?).

Unluckily for me I didn't spend much of my youth in East Africa (lived for a few months in West Africa as a lad, specifically Nigeria, and a couple of years in the middle east - great experiences all) and so the word doesn't have those connotations for me, it's just standard British slang, possibly after Monty Python brought it back into vogue in the 60s and 70s (not sure if it had fallen out of mainstream use or not since the war) which seems most likely to me to be where Joss and, therefore, Spike picked it up. I do like how the word keyed you into Spike's past though (yet again we have the Buffyverse prompting different, totally valid interpretations based on differing experiences, it's no wonder we love those shows so damn much ;).

(another variant, AFAIK of Scottish origin/usage, is 'bisom' pr. biz-um which my Mum still uses and I used to. It means basically the same thing or at least would be used in the same context as 'bitch' but, again, sounds less harsh to my ears)
purplehazel; How does the racism angle apply when it's sued between people of the same race, like Spike and Harmony, or Andy Capp and various local birds? (the comic strip is where I picked it up)

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