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March 13 2007

"Grey" Scale: Noxon earns exec stripes. Marti Noxon's been promoted from consulting producer to executive producer of "Grey's Anatomy" as part of her deal with ABC TV.

Uh oh. That means that Grey's is officially going downhill. Let's hope that next season isn't a big depressing season where Meredith gets raped and her and dr mcdreamy spend hours upon hours doing S&M and uttering the most cringe-inducing (AND LETS NOT FORGET-- DEGRADING.) dialogue. And TR Knight's character is probably going to develop a drug addiction. Expect all of the characters to be a shell of what they once were (That goes for the show as a whole as well.) I better go warn the Grey's fans...In fact, I think I'll write a pilot. Marti the Show Killer/Slayer.

LOL reminds me of Dru's line:

"Everything I put in the ground withers and dies."

RIP Grey's Anatomy. You have now officially, jumped the shark.

Oh how rude, where are my manners?

Congratulations Marti!! ;)

[ edited by vmars on 2007-03-13 23:49 ]
*clap, clap, clap* Good for her. I like what Marti has written in the past and wish her well in her new post. I'm not a "Grey's" fan, but my mother is so I'll have to trust her analysis of how Ms. N is doing.

I tried her "Point Pleasant" last season, but I felt it suffered from too much interference from a network that wanted an "OC"-East more than a supernatural thriller with bikinis. As a side note, I see from the article that four of the five writers for "Grey's Anatomy" are women. I have no idea how common that is, but it is nice to see that opportunities have truly opened up in Hollywood.

[ edited by Kyrax on 2007-03-13 22:57 ]
vmars, that's totally harsh.
Hey, lets just wish the best for Marti, shall we?
The truth usually tends to be harsh. :(

I'm just speaking my mind, and sharing an opinion.

I don't think she qualifies as a good showrunner/writer.

I think ABC/Grey's Anatomy is making a huge mistake.
Well, vmars, nice to meet you. I kinda' agree with "Grey's Anatony", not sure where that story is going. Guess we'll have to wait awhile.

Until then, cool your jets a bit, please. We're all trying to figure, second-guess, stab in the back, and dry-ice everyone in sight. However, we don't tend to do it here.
How sick am I of Noxon-bashing? Enough to break my rule of silence, certainly. I've had so many people rag on her for aspects of the show I developed, or praise me for things she came up with. She's been a vital part of everything people love about Buffy since she overhauled the halloween script in season two. She's as good a story-breaker as I've ever worked with. And she's a leader.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, Vmars. You are uninformed and rude. That's mine.
Jossir, way to support a beloved friend and colleague, and someone I am way tired of hearing bad-mouthed. Marti is a fine writer and a hoot and a half, which is the only stuff about which I can have an informed opinion.

Good on you for breaking silence - I'd so wanna have you at my back.

ET: fix typo.

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2007-03-13 23:52 ]
Holy scnhikes! A Whedon verbal beat-down...and what a beat down!


But an attempt to avoid seeming a simpering syncophant, I will say that even if Marti does drive Grey's Anatomy into the ground, she still deserves a modicum of respect that your seem unable to fathom or produce, vmars. If you got a beef, be mindful that there be powerful forces around here that will get mighty unpleasant with you if you can't keep a civil tongue.

[ edited by BlueEyedBrigadier on 2007-03-13 23:52 ]
You know, I wrote a long reply, but I just ditched it as somebody posted above. My short version is that I don't think there's a big understanding of Marti's involvement in the show, possibly because she's not as interviewed as Joss. A lot of people seem convinced that all aspects of Buffy which didn't work revolve around Marti. I think, reality, that's an opinion.

Here's the thing. Marti is on a 7, or 8, figure deal. That's $x,xxx,xxx. Or possibly $xx,xxx,xxx, I can't remember. That suggests, to me, she has far more of a clue than any of us actually, you know, realise. She's certainly earning a lot more than me, you and everybody else here. Aside from Joss. Uhm, possibly. Also, an exec producer on one of the biggest shows at the moment. Me? I work for a company that sells tinned tuna.

[ edited by gossi on 2007-03-13 23:56 ]
I have never previously responded directly in a thread when JW has posted, but on this occassion I just wanted to say... Thank you.

Marti Noxon is a wonderful writer and I think her tremendous and positive contribution to BtVS should not be undervalued. I accept I am in a minority, but I loved 'Point Pleasant'. I don't watch 'Grey's Anatomy', but I wish her every success and I will continue to look forward to her future work with keen anticipation.
Just adding my voice to the chorus of support.

I'm an on-again, off-again fan of Grey's Anatomy, but I have to say that Marti's recent episode was one of the reasons I come back to it, it was really well done.

I didn't know about her contributions to Halloween, that's one of our favorite episodes around my house.

Best of luck to Marti!

[ edited by Biff Turkle on 2007-03-13 23:58 ]
Well that didn't take long at all, did it?

Go Marti! Congrats!

When I think Marti Noxon: I think quality. I think naked Spike. I think quality naked Spike.
When I think of Marti Noxon I think of my country. No, wait... When I think of Marti Noxon I think of parking meters.
Yay for Marti! I can't wait to see what she brings to Grey's! I have been dissapointed with it's recent episodes but that last episode she co-wrote got me all excited about it again.
To Joss: I think its obvious that since I'm posting here, I'm a fan of your work. Now, I'd just like to say that I think you're totally off-base for calling me rude. Do you see me calling you rude when you've complained about a lot of people in your interviews (Obviously, you have a reason to.) But what I'm saying is that I've formed an opinion on her from what I've read on the internet, and seen on Buffy. (Besides, she was responsible for the episode "She" on Angel. Which in my opinion, was not a very good ep.)

Now, if you're saying that most of the things I think (And this is a general opinion among MANY fans.) are bad storytelling through season 6-7 were your ideas instead of Martis, then I take it back. Maybe you shouldn't have been running three shows at the same time, in fact a lot of people share that opinion.

I think Buffy is one of the best shows on TV EVER (Restless being my fave.) But come on, you can't tell me that you guys didn't screw up in season 6. You can't tell me that the scene where they threw buffy out in empty places wasn't ridiculously out-of-character and to further the plot (And it wasn't realistic or true to the characters at all.) I'm not being rude. It's just that I tend to get disappointed when good shows go downhill. Seasons 6-7 WERE the Spike spin-off.

If Marti wasn't responsible then I suggest you start doing damage-control. Because I know that I'm not the only one whose being "misinformed and rude."

I get that you're defending your friend but come on, I think you're aware about how many people share the same opinion.

[ edited by vmars on 2007-03-14 00:24 ]

[ edited by vmars on 2007-03-14 00:33 ]
When I think of gossi, I think of "no shame" or "shameless."

ET: But now I see that there are folks that better embody that title, so I'm just gonna shudder and back slowly out of this thread... I remember when I thought I knew what "most people thought" and that what "a lot of people thought" mattered, though it was many, many years ago...

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2007-03-14 00:09 ]
Maybe you shouldn't have been running three shows at the same time, in fact a lot of people share that opinion.

vmars. Dude. I can't imagine why anybody would think you're rude.
Congrats to Marti. This is well-deserved. I'm loving her work on Greys.
To semi-quote Anya: I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking.

But I honestly don't see how I'm coming off as rude here.

Doublemeat palace, anyone?
Wow. That last bit of spleen is one of the sillier things I've read on the interwebs in quite some time.
When I think of Marti Noxon, I think that she's not wearing underwear.
Well, that was interesting.

Back to topic, wishing Marti the best!
I don't know who vmars is, but you should have just wished Marti the best, period.
I think it all depends on others opinions. Yes, Season 6 wasn't my favorite season, but I still love and enjoy it. I wasn't happy with everything characters were getting into but I think that it made it more thrilling, for me anyways, to see how they will deal with it.

Doublemeat is extra sweet!
Well, thank God vmars will never be a showrunner. That kind of lame ass attitude is exactly what will keep him from it too, should he ever aspire to it. I wasn't exactly a fan of Noxon's ascension to Executive Producer myself, but she's far from a sub-par writer and did plenty of good (and even a couple great) episodes of Buffy. And Joss, as a fellow Executive Producer, would have had to have read and approved the same things she did in S6/S7 for it to get the go-ahead. Anything you may blame her for in those two seasons, Joss deserves to be 'scolded' for as well.

Also, many fans will tell you exactly what you just said Joss himself couldn't POSSIBLY tell you, so you're really pushing it here. Philosophically, definitively, literally and totally - opinion is not the basis for fact, and belief is merely a predicate.

In addendum: Stop before this gets really ugly. You've annoyed Joss himself, so I don't think you're going to be making many friendly acquaintances in this thread.

[ edited by Ryan-RB on 2007-03-14 00:27 ]
Congrats to Marti! "What's My Line" is one of my favorite episodes of S2 and her commentary ranks #1 on all of the commentaries pre S4. (I'm only up to the beginning of S4 on my DVD watching.) I'm sure she'll do a wonderful job on GA.
vmars, your flaming does not compare with Joss's interview comments. Joss is refreshingly and consistently positive, giving credit where others might hog it. Even when he had a critical thing to say, as he did about "certain Donald Sutherlands," he made sure to point out that the performer in question is so good at what he does that he can sound beautiful reading the phone book.

I get that you're defending yourself but come on, you're uninformed and rude.
Anybody want to go to lunch with me to take me away from the keyboard? I'll pay. There can be fried mars bars.

Fun fact I just learned from Wiki of the Pedia: Jenji Kohan is Marti's Sister in Law. Jenji created "Weeds" for Showtime. Everybody should be taped to a chair and made to watch "Weeds". Seriously. It's freakin' a-maze-ing. (And also really good, if people can't translate my lame).
You're very clearly missing the point here vmars. Not everyone else is thinking what you are (and thank God for that). I, for one, love S6 (probably my personal favorite) and S7. No, they aren't the best seasons (that award goes to S5), imo, but they are nothing like the train wreck 'some' people claim they are.

And I think "Doublemeat Palace" creates a fantastic atmosphere. Not the best ep, but still valuable and far too overly hated.
I have heard that about Weeds, and Mary Louise-Parker is pretty, but I don't really...get why it's so good. It's on a long list of Shows People Have Told Me to Watch That I May Get Around to Watching One of These Days.
Watch it. It's incredibly tightly plotted, P-C, and the characters are fun. As a concept, it sounds dull. As a show, it just works. Also, it's laugh out loud funny, which helps a lot. I think it's the Wonderfalls of shows, as try explaining Wonderfalls to people and getting them interested & you will probably struggle - and then sit them in front of it.

[ edited by gossi on 2007-03-14 00:37 ]
...Seasons 6-7 WERE the Spike spin-off.

You say that as if it were a bad thing. *scratches head*
Truly, Joss-annoyance on here is so rare - I don't think I've ever seen it... his restraint is legend, in the face of what is occasionally monumental provocation/sycophantish tone.

Honestly, vmars, don't let the fact that you're online - that folks can't see you and no one knows who you are - lead you into writing stuff you would prolly never say to Joss or Marti or the rest of us in person. It's really just not on on whedonesque...

(Not that it really needs saying, or that it's even relevant, but I like every Season of BtVS and AtVS - even if that does make me sound like a raving toady... gossi, wish I could take you out to lunch and away from your keyboard - both for your sake, and 'cause that would mean I was in England and not in L.A. for a change...)
Well, a Wonderfalls comparison certainly moves it up in the queue.
I have to say, this makes me WANT to watch Gray's Anatomy (a show that I have had no interest in up until now).

Of course, I actually LIKED season 6 of Buffy, a lot. It's my favorite season, and it's the one that, contrary to what vmars claims many people think, developed the characters the most. It was absolutely the most character-centric season (when else did the Scooby-gang dynamic go through such upheavals?) and the single large flaw in it was the rigid analogizing of Willow's problems to drug addiction. Aside from that, I stand by my claim that it was a great season.

All that being said, I don't know enough to know which aspects of Buffy are attributable to Joss and which to Marti (and which to the hundreds of other people involved with the show). All I know is that she did a lot of stuff on a great TV show; that makes me think I'll like what she does on OTHER TV shows.

(And yeah, Weeds is great!)
I kind of hope vmars was sitting at his/her computer today thinking: joss hasn't posted in a while, how can I possibly get him to post?
To me, it doesn't really matter. I made a comment, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. You can't judge a person by like a paragraph they write on the internet. I think Joss was out of line calling me "rude." He could've said that I "seemed" rude but honestly, none of you know me well enough to say I'm rude.

And maybe not everyone else but A MAJORITY do share the same opinion as I do and yeah, it really doesn't matter what I say because a lot of you (I'm not saying all of you.) are sheep and are going to think I'm rude because Joss said so. You guys wouldn't have even taken notice had he not replied.

And I'm sorry but when season 6-7 have SO many plotholes (More than seasons 1-5 combined.) I think its fair to say that the show slipped. I'm not going to apologize or say that I was wrong. I formed an opinion based on X amount of interviews and watching the Buffy DVDs. I think Joss was seriously in the wrong when he commented. But I know most of you are going to disagree.

I guess that makes me rude and uninformed. [insert eyeroll here]
I recently re-watched the Marti-penned "Surprise" (Buffy season two, ep 13) and noticed a lot of excellence.
Here I was, expecting Pruittgate.

That's what I get for being a wankulance chaser.

is ashamed
"Honestly, vmars, don't let the fact that you're online - that folks can't see you and no one knows who you are - lead you into writing stuff you would prolly never say to Joss or Marti or the rest of us in person. It's really just not on on whedonesque..."

Actually, I would say it to their faces. They're people too. It's called constructive criticism.

And I didn't wake up today saying "HMM how can I make Joss post." like some other user implied LOL. Honestly I had no idea he was going to read it but I don't see the big deal. He's a person like everybody else and he created one of my favorite shows. That doesn't mean I can't point out the flaws.
Christ that's the last time I go monster hunting on FF XII, anyhow Vmars you're out of line and it would be best to give up when the going is good. Actor and crew bashing maybe the flavour of the month elsewhere but not here.

Now if we can all get back on topic then that would be lovely. Otherwise I will take away people's buckets.
You guys wouldn't have even taken notice had he not replied.
That is incorrect, as both gossi and Madhatter commented on it before Joss did.

(Sorry, Simon, you posted while I was posting. *clings to bucket...that appears to contain Weeds DVDs*)

[ edited by Polter-Cow on 2007-03-14 01:02 ]
Congratulations to Marti.I have really enjoyed the recent episodes that she was involved with, great writing etc.The show just goes from strength to strength.
If we are talking about constructive criticism, I have one for the fanbase. I think that everyone tends to be very worshiping when it comes to Joss, and I think that he has a wonderful presence that identifies with every person around him. Creative and nerdy, a perfect combination for a cult fan base. I also think that if he does something wrong, then the fan base is the first to point fingers at the surrounding writers/producers... etc.

Joss is very wonderful, but I do you really think he didn't know what was going on in season 6 & 7? Marti Noxon is an integral part of the Whedonverse and she got the undeserved bad rap for much of the later seasons. I think that for all the Whedon worshipers, you should be even more ashamed that you even conceived that Noxon could pull the wool over Jossí eyes.

Marti said it best in her latest blog on GREY MATTER: "But, in my nightmares, Iím 90 at a Buffy convention, and nobody wants my autograph... I love Joss, but itís hard being his friend."

I wish her all the luck, and believe that the people who are writing Grey's are just as capable of hiring someone to write their episodes, as they are of actually writing them. Joss was correct in taking her underneath his wing if she only started in season two, and I believe that Grey writers see the same potential as Joss.

Lastly, I also know that stupid things are always said. I vote that Vars' comment be officially forgiven from this point on and chalk it up to a difference of opinions.
(I once wrote my professor an e-mail at 5 o'clock in the morning cursing him for assigning a paper. I believe the words were, "I canít believe you are as ignorant to assume that my time belongs to you..." Believe me, it only went down from there...)

Sania D.

Ps. I hope everyone is having a wonderful week; I have three midterms and a paper. If I can be this forgiving WITHOUT chocolate, then you can too. (I ate my entire stash and I havenít been able to buy any because of studyingÖoh the agony!)

[ edited by Sania Delian on 2007-03-14 01:00 ]
"I guess that makes me rude and uninformed"

Ignorance about a subject which you believe you understand?

Direct insult: "Marti the Show/Killer"?

Well, it doesn't make YOU necessarily uninformed and rude as a person, but it sure as hell makes your post that way.
Ryan-RB, I suspect you wrote that before Simon posted.
Sania Delian and Ryan-Rb, do read what I said several posts up and get back on topic ta very much.

Also vmars is banned. I should really be less subtle in what I say.

As ever, mod decisions to be discussed via email only.

Also differences of opinion are great, fan rants aren't.
I just want to add my congrats to MN. Whether one likes her or not, she's a success in a very tough business, and she's one of the relatively few women who can make that claim. I may have to give Grey's Anatomy a try now.
Marti Noxon's episodes of season two are some of my favourite. Sure I didn't like some of her later stuff, but that's just taste. I don't think any less of her as a writer.

I'm always glad to see the better Buffy writers moving on to bigger things, and I always make a point of checking them out if they come to UK screens. So for Ms Noxon and Allan Heinberg, I made a point of watching Grey's for the first time yesterday, and I quite enjoyed it.
I greatly enjoyed Season 6 and have never understood the negativity that is sometimes thrown at it. The whole 'life as the big bad' aspect of the Season was interesting and I believe that the writing/plotting during that time was as strong as ever.
Well, good for Marti. Whedon-alums learned at the knee of the master, yet they each bring their own innate skills to the game.

Although I wasn't a fan of Point Pleasant, I enjoyed Marti's work on Buffy along with most of you. And I don't think I've ever seen Joss get indignant on an individual's behalf like this, so wow.

Again, glad she's got a j-o-b on a top-rated show. Wish her all the best.
I heart Marti Noxon soooooooo much. I'm so happy that she's taking the reins of this awesome show.

And I, too, would say that season 6 is my FAVORITE season of Buffy.
*clings to bucket...that appears to contain Weeds DVDs*

There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that pee on Weeds DVDs and... Oh. Wrong thread.
Deleted because I'm not sure it's that relevant anymore.

Go Marti! Seriously. Never watched Grey's, but that's where the big bucks are.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2007-03-14 01:24 ]
Septimus: analogizing is a wonderful word! :)

gossi: I'll take you away from your keyboard if theres a deep fried mars bar involved! mmm so bad and yet so tasty... To bring this slightly back round to whedonesque - those little snack chocolate bars (cadbury favourites - were promoted by Tom Lenk on tv this side of the world) make good mini 'deep fried mars bars'

And really back on the less calorie topic- yay marti!
Well I guess this is on topic. Season 7 is one of my favorite seasons. I thought it ended the show wonderfully, and had lots of great episodes. I think Marti will be good for Grey's.
Uh ... geez, I am so wishing right now I had posted before I left work. As it is, I am thrilled for Marti's promotion and that there are so many women writers employed on the show. I don't watch G.A., not because I think it's bad but lack of time and energy to be a watcher of everything I think will interest me on the tube. I was going to give it a go awhile back mainly for Sandra Oh, who I think is a fantastic actress, but will admit the whole Isaiah Washington flap left a bad taste in my mouth. How much is he actually on the show (big storyline?)? However, knowing this information about Marti may spur me to watch, even though I'm what, two seasons behind now?
Tonya, while Washington's behavior in real life is pretty terrible, funnily enough his characters, and Knights characters relationship are one of the best things about the show IMO.

It's a good show to get into on DVD, season 1 is pretty short. And season 2 DVD's have extended episodes.
Congrats to Marti!! I LOVED the ep she co-wrote for Greys and I'm excited to see more from her on the show!

Odysseus - I totally agree about the relationship between george and of the best of the show!

[ edited by kballgetlost on 2007-03-14 01:41 ]
I know this was mentioned above, but for those who want to read the whole thing: Marti Noxon blogs about the Grey's episode she co-wrote. I've been a little hot and cold on the show as of late (and distracted by Heroes) but I look forward to seeing what she brings to the table.

[ edited by Lady Brick on 2007-03-14 02:38 ]
WHOA!! Everyone take a breath. Now, think before you speak please.
I was so excited when I saw her name as a consulting producer in the opening credits a few weeks ago, and then when I saw she wrote the most recent episode, I was jumping and pointing it out to my friends.
I'm glad she's doing so well. I know she's gonna churn out some great eps, and maybe even lend her great voice to an ep (I'm thinking a hospital karaoke).

And she did a great job on Buffy and Angel. Not an opinion, fact.
Well, I certainly don't have the statistics to back up what a 'majority' of Buffy fans feel, but I loved the work Marti did on Buffy, and season 6 was probably my favorite. I loved the depth and darkness shown in all the characters. I don't watch Grey's, and I don't automatically think that a writer I love will be a good fit for just any project, but I do think they are probably lucky to have her on board in this role.
I am completely in agreement with Tonya J. I only watch two shows regularly right now (well, not *right now* as they are on a break) Studio 60 and Veronica Mars. I think Marti Noxon is fab and I might actually check out Greys Anatomy in the future.
Big Congrats to Marti!
I'm one of the minority who watches Grey's Anatomy and I enjoy it as long as they stay away from having the characters do anything remotely medical because what they show certainly isn't what happens in the "real" world of medicine.
Keep it romantic and funny and occasionally, pluck the heart-strings and I'll keep watching it.
Thanks Odysseus, for your insight into the characters of Washington and Knight. I just may try the Netflix thing with the show.
And that's a good break to mention "Goners". Ahh, know you're tight-lipped, Joss, but a little peek?
Wait, how does that lead to Goners? Is it really the twisted tale of a fateful meeting between Odysseus, George Washington, and Gabriel Knight? That is secretly available on Netflix already?
While I think season 6-7 were weaker seasons then some of the others,there were things I liked in it.Everybody's opinions are going to be different.I think Marti Noxon wrote some great episodes over the series run and congratulations on her promotion.
All routes lead to Goners. Or something. I have no idea.
personally, i hope this means Marti pens an ep of GA that has ghost!Denny and Izzie going at it a la Buffy and Riley in Where the Wild Things Are.

what? a girl can dream.
I actually like Marti's writing quite a bit too. You could not find any better stories than what she wrote for Buffy in the early years. Fabulous! It's great that so many of Joss's employee's are finding themselves quite busy. He knows how to pick them. Just watch Joss's circle of friends grow.
Yays Marti. The woman sang the Parking Ticket song, for chrissakes. If she had done nothing else in her entire career she would still be forever blessed in my eyes.

I know it's very juvenile of me, but I really enjoyed reading that little smackdown (above). Imagine getting told off by Joss. I believe the correct phrase here is, Ooh burn.

[ edited by Mythtaken on 2007-03-15 04:04 ]
Congrats to Marti.

I've never watched GA but maybe now I'll check it out. I happen to love 6 and 7 just as much as the ealier seasons.
Wow. I leave for a while to go to work and the Hellmouth opened.

Ever since Marti was brought on to Grey's Anatomy, I've felt she was in her element. While I'm not in love with the show, her writing style is a perfect fit for the dramedy venue. The episode she wrote was well done. She's a talented writer (and has a terrific singing voice, too).

Also, Shonda Rhimes has said in the past that she is a big fan of "Buffy," and I bet she was thrilled to get Marti in there.

I LOVED Buffy Season 6. It was the most tightly done season, and the one that hooked me on the show. Prior to S6, I was just an occasional viewer of the show. Even after seeing the entire series (several times), it's still my favorite.

ETA: Season 7 was actually very good. It had a few weak episodes in the middle, but most of the episodes were great. Even the sucky episodes were much better than the average show.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2007-03-14 03:13 ]
WOW! All I can say after reading the comments above I think I'm a little breathless!

[ edited by stevekaw on 2007-03-14 03:19 ]
Well that's what I get for coming to the party late...yeah...
Anyway. Yay for Marti. I love reading/watching her interviews, she seems like she would be fun to go to coffee with. I don't watch Grey's, but I may have to read Marti's blogs anyway :) Congrats Marti!!
Grey's Anatomy is perfect for Marti... it's a kinda-soap, kinda-comedy/drama with witty dialog and actors who can deliver it. I don't normally like medical dramas, but this one has me hooked. Many congratulations to Marti!
Wow...I really should make it a point not to leave the boards for too long. All I can say in response to what I read far above is that in my house, the holy trinity is made up of Joss, Marti and Jane. I love them all. Congratultions Marti!
I said before I thought Marti was a perfect fit for Grey's, and obviously Shonda Rhimes agrees. Best of luck to her.

It boggles me that people as obsessed with the show as the Marti- haters don't understand how writing the show works, since it's been explained by the writers numerous times. It's why I think "uninformed" is an even more damning comment than "rude". Joss devised the general plot and arc of the seasons. Certain eps were set up for pivotal events. Marti and the other writers had their input after that.

The other eps were worked out as the season progressed, with the writers, not just Marti or Joss, hashing them over, setting up act breaks and beats, fitting the ep into the arc, and devising an outline. Then, and only then, did a writer write the ep, which was then revised. Joss gave it a final check. Other writers often wrote individual lines or even whole scenes, which is why Joss said that people have ragged on Marti for stuff she didn't write, and praised him for things that she had. It's a collaborative process, people.

I remember some posters going on about how wonderful Drew Goddard was after CWDP, and using him to bash the other writers, whom they claimed were phoning it in. It turns out Marti, Jane and Joss wrote most of the ep.

So, just because someone is credited as the writer doesn't mean they came up with the plot, that they wrote the line the audience groaned at or loved or even that they agree with the direction the ep goes in. Same goes for Marti as showrunner.

I happen to like Double Meat Palace (now anyway), but even for those who hate it, there's simply no way they know how much input Marti had into what Jane wrote, or into what they didn't like about seasons 6 and 7. If they don't like the season, it's far better to say so and leave it at that, rather than personalize it.

[ edited by shambleau on 2007-03-14 04:09 ]
oh god yes, I totally forgot about the singing. For that she could have the Hellmouth swallow us whole and get away with it. Well, in my eyes, obviously.
Somebody was ragging on Marti Noxon...
What a crock of shit...
She wrote-
"The Wish".. a completly and utterly defining moment for the Buffyverse... if you don't get why that is.. you never really "got" Buffy.
In many, many, many ways...the real Un-Buffy was Anyanka, she is the perfect Pre-empowered, male-defined version of feminism that plagued the literary and pop world--before truly empowered, true to life complex females showed up on pop/lit mythos.

She is Carrie, she is Alex Forrest (hater of bunnies!), she is Fay Weldon's Ruth, she is every victimized woman turned victimizer...
And if you watch the Wish, under many lenses, you can see what an incredibly writer Marti is...
I wish I had an ounce of her writing talents...
Jeesus man.. she wrote "I only have eyes for You"... one of the finest hours of TV...

I'm a Joss fan boy..yes...
But Marti.. .damn straight .. she rocks....
My favorite Buffy episode written by Marti was "Living Conditions." Very little is ever said about it, but to someone who has had to live with the nightmare of annoying roommates, it was hilarious!

Oh, and there are two kinds of people in the world: those who realize that writers are humans beings, and those who seem to believe they are living dart boards.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2007-03-14 04:43 ]
Congrats to Marti. Grey's is one of my favorite shows right now.

As for season 6 and 7, I'm not much of a fan of them. Good concepts but somewhere a long the way the execution of them failed to deliver, imo.

Nebula1400 - I always loved Living Conditions too. One of my favorites from season 4 and very much my college roommate experience, although I never proved my roommate was a demon. Sometimes I wondered though, lol.
Should have posted this before leaving work (would have been the 4th or 5th person posting) but had to dash to catch the train home.

Congratulations to Ms. Noxon. I'm a huge Grey's Anatomy fan and I loved the last episode that Ms. Noxon co-wrote with Shondra Rhimes. The scene with Christina (Sandra Oh) shopping in the 99 cents store because she can't deal with what's happening to Meredith. Funny and filled with pathos as well as so in character and human. Who hasn't resorted to a little "retail therapy" when things are bleak? According to Ms. Rhimes blog, that was all Marti's idea. Brilliant. I'm sure Ms. Noxon will bring a lot to the program.
My favorite Buffy episode written by Marti was "Living Conditions." Very little is ever said about it, but to someone who has had to live with the nightmare of annoying roommates, it was hilarious!

I love LOVE that episode. It was exactly like my college roommate experience! Except for my roommate being a demon, though I can't count that out definitively. But really, the food labeling, the gross personal hygiene, the window...hell, even the Cher song was a constant around my campus! I would say "Ah, good times," but it really wasn't. Wait a second...maybe I actually hate HATE that episode. Damn that Marti Noxon, she makes me think I love an episode I actually hate! How dare she!!
"Oh, and there are two kinds of people in the world: those who realize that writers are humans beings, and those who seem to believe they are living dart boards."

I used to be the same way about Marti, it was weird, I took a writer and show-runner and placed her in a position where my dislike of the season bled onto her. Then I realized exactly what Maje said, that she tried her best, and we disagreed. Im not a fan of seasons 6 and 7, I think Spike the vampire would have been good anywhere else but on BTVS, but good for Marti that she is now the producer of Grey's Anatomy. She is no longer my dart board because I think Maje is correct, so congrats to Marti.

BTW, my favorite Marti episode is The Prom and the class protector award, oh man that gets me everytime, I love it so. Though I will never believe, in my entire life, that Buffy wrote what Angel found on her notebook, but thats for another day.
Nebula1400: "Oh, and there are two kinds of people in the world: those who realize that writers are humans beings, and those who seem to believe they are living dart boards."

*sigh* Well, Nebby, if you hadn't won my heart already with some of your posts, including some very recently, this would have done it. Thank you for this...
Whatever season of Buffy I happen to be watching is my favorite! I love them all!

And if you go by's customer reviews - season six scores a 4.5 out of 5 stars (just like seasons 1,2,4 and 5) so I'd say it's safe to guess the majority of fans loved it! And season 7 was still very much in the "love it" category with a 4.0. Season 3 had 5 stars. Pretty much shows that the love for BtVS was pretty consistent throughout its entire run.

And I'm thrilled for Marti and wish her the best of luck. I don't watch Grey's but now I'm wishing I did!
Someone got banned for bashing Marti Noxon? That seems harsh. I realize this place has to keep a certain face, so that Joss and such will still post (I posted on Sons of Sam Horn, I've seen what "gehrig38" did, for those that even get that reference... Good stuff)... But, I don't think the poster was asserting anything unreasonable (that a lot of folks believe the show went downhill, that there were some nasty plotholes and stuff)... Though, maybe they went over the top. I won't deny it's probably shortsighted to blame Marti, especially since no one in this thread was actually there to say either way, but she was the showrunner... So, you know, I can understand why the poster would come to that conclusion. I realize this kind of comment is ban worthy too (some kind of "Don't talk about Fight Club" taboo on boards), but really... Banning someone because they didn't make a generic "Ooh, (insert cast/crew member/whatever is great)!" post seems, as I said, harsh. I realize it's an active effort to counter the harshness of TWoP and other such places (they're wrong most of the time, like about Season 5 of Angel but they probably are not wrong about 6 and 7 of the other show), but still... Is negative commentary really that bad? It leads to actual discourse, which is pretty awesome. Now I say all this as someone who thinks Marti is a pretty talented writer that can usually do the angst very well, so long as it's not taken to far. As it was in the later seasons of Buffy. A drama like Grey's Anatomy could use that angst, so long as it's kept within reason.

Well, I have to say, "Ooh Marti is great!"
I'm with those who love all seasons of Buffy (all-temperature Buffy!) and I really like to see friends of Joss in high places.
So this is good news.
And Gossi has been cracking me up lately.
Well congrats to Marti, even though I think she is too good for Grey's Anatomy.
Wow, what a post this is! Action, drama, special guest appearance and all ending on a congratulations to Marti! I don't post much but Joss comin in to throw vmars into the airlock for turnin on one of his crew is just legen... wait for it....dary! Now I know this should be left alone but all I have say is that this is a moderated site. Vmars original comment could have been forgiven if he had seen it was going to cause any uproar and noted that it was possibly harsh but just his opinion and walked away. But unfortunatly that wasn't the case. He can take those comments to AICN now. I feel the tone and direction of season 6 was necessary, and I feel more connected to the characters because of it. Every person (I think) hits rock bottom some point, loses themselves and end's up on a journey in their young lives in order to find out who they really are. Whether that was Joss's decision or Marti's I'm definetly uninformed, but from me to each of you...
Thank you,
Just adding to the Season six love.
I'll admit there were elements I didn't like, but it is BY FAR the season I re-watch the most.

It had:
Once More With Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Smashed, Gone, Afterlife, Life Serial, Dead Things, Bargaining 1 and 2

Along with:
"Every night I save you,"
Kitten Poker,
The Mummy Hand,
almost every conversation the nerd trio had especially:
"Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!"
Plus an erotic albeit angsty relationship unlike anything I'd ever seen on television.
And I will always be grateful for, as Arabchick said,
"quality naked Spike."
I don't watch Grey's Anatomy, but I wish Marti the best.
She gave me a season of very pleasureable viewing.
Congratulations to Marti! I also put her close to the top of Whedonesque writers, imo. And whoever did what on Season 6 and 7 of BtVS doesn't really matter to me because I love both those seasons.
you go Joss!

Everybody who saw Marti's Grey's episode "Some Kind Of Miracle" knows that it was one of the best episodes ever.

so Im still a fan of Marti's writing :)
Simon, you play FFXII? I so wish you were my age (and, possibly, unmarried) so that we could get married and have little Joss-and-Final-Fantasy fan babies! Good times.

Also, congrats to Marti! I haven't been watching Grey's lately, but I personally count this as a step in the right direction for the show.

Ooh, and for what it's worth, season 6 is counted as one of the best for me.
Congratulations, Marti!

Being a Buffy fan herself, Shonda must be having a ball working with Marti. I'm sure the show is going to be even better from now on.
Wow, talk about coming in late! Damn you, Hawaii time zone.
Yay Marti!!
Go Joss!
Thank you, Simon :)
Arabchick said Marti was responsible for lots of "quality naked Spike". Um, is there any other kind? I have no idea how much naked Spike Marti was responsible for, but if it was only half, she could never have written a word & would still be a goddess in my eyes.
Glad to see that all the "sheep" here have fallen in line and .... um, wait .... not going back to count, but it appears to me that for every two season 6 lovers (count me in, it's my favorite), there is at least one who didn't like it much, or at all. Baaaaa.
A further comment on non-sheepdom but staying on Marti topic: my absolute favorite ep she wrote was "Goodbye Iowa". I realize I'm probably in a tiny minoity , but I cannot express how much I loved that ep. As a writerly geek, I thought it was as tightly constructed and compelling as any ep of the entire series. Using Riley's loss of innocence as a macrocosim for the "loss of innocence" subtext of the entire fourth season was just plain masterful storytelling.
I love Grey's Anatomy & I think it's a perfect fit for Marti. It's a show with heart, wit, interesting characters & that mix of drama & comedy that so seldom works, but when it does, it's just plain great entertainment.
Yay team.
Honestly guys, I think its unfair to keep talking about this when vmar isnt around to defend him/herself. Its unbecoming to talk about someone behind their backs, and we here at Whedonesque are better than that. I think we should congratulate Marti, talk about her episodes on Buffy, and talk about Marti in general with regard to Grey's Anatomy.

ETA: Ive read through this entire thread and there is post after post that has taken a shot at him/her. I agree that he/she was a little rude, but as my mom always told me, two wrongs dont make a right. Though technically if you multiply two negative numbers you get a positive number, but thats clearly tertiary to the discussion. My advice? Stay on topic and lay off vmar, you will all feel better for it. Or at least, you can throw things at me, that might help too!

[ edited by jerryst3161 on 2007-03-14 09:56 ]
Sorry jerryst3161, I thought I was being subtle :)
**throws things at jerryst3161**

Well, you SAID....

Meanwhile, I just want to say that 1) I Love Season 6, 2) I don't know who was polled to come up with the assertion that the majority of fans didn't like it or Marti, because I disagree on both points, 3) Joss, yay, and 4) Congratulations to Marti!
Yikes, I figured there'd be celeb postage cos, y'know, 104 comments but turns out there's been celeb postage and controversy. It's like a sherbet dib-dab, in the bad way.

Not read all the posts but skimming I saw this

When I think of Marti Noxon, I think that she's not wearing underwear.

Which struck me as weird. Until it struck me as funny. LOL Polter-Cow ;).

I'll chip in with, I don't think commenting on the quality of someone's work is bad per se (it's the famous ball we all keep playing ;) and that, ultimately, is what happened, just that there's ways and ways of doing it and well done Joss for sticking up for his mate.

Also, though I stopped watching Grey's after about 8 episodes (too soapish) and so don't really care from that perspective, Marti Noxon wrote 'The Prom' so I reckon I owe her at least as much happy as that episode has given me over the years i.e. a lot. So congrats to Ms Noxon, long may your success continue.

(and yeah, as usual with the whole S6/7 thing, someone will claim the majority opinion is against and then, funnily enough, the majority of responses won't be. Always makes me grin ;)
Shey, I love Goodbye Iowa, too. One of my favorite Marti epis.
Congrats Marti! I love season 6 of Buffy! I have yet to see an entire episode of Grey's Anatomy. I hear it's good though, so I might give it a shot.

And yes, banning seems a bit harsh...
I will say for the final time that if anyone wants to discuss a mod or admin decision, it gets done via email only.
How sick am I of Noxon-bashing? Enough to break my rule of silence, certainly. I've had so many people rag on her for aspects of the show I developed, or praise me for things she came up with. She's been a vital part of everything people love about Buffy since she overhauled the halloween script in season two. She's as good a story-breaker as I've ever worked with. And she's a leader.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, Vmars. You are uninformed and rude. That's mine.
joss | March 13, 23:45 CET

I am not usually a brown-noser, but YAYYYYYYYY! I personally LOVED the later seasons, and I've been getting annoyed for a while at the few but very loud online bashers. (to the point of almost leaving the fandom, so I could keep some enjoyment of it) Thank you Joss. Marti wrote some of the best episodes of the series. The Prom is classic.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2007-03-14 14:41 ]
I loved season 6 and 7...and as for someone referring to them as the uhhhh...Spike spinoff...well, that sure worked for me!!!!!!!

Wish we could have had a real Spike spinoff. He's the reason I kept watching both shows anyway.

Back on topic now....all the best to Marti on her new venture.
I think that people give Noxon trouble not for anything specific, but because she's not Joss. You can always tell when Joss has a hand in an episode, because it sparkles in a way no other writer can reproduce. Joss-withdrawal makes people cranky. Maybe Noxon's amp only goes to ten, and criticism leveled at her is simply because she doesn't hit eleven the way Joss consistently does. Well, who the heck can? Point Pleasant was a nice little show, and I found myself muttering, "Yes, but it's not Buffy." Then I realized that nothing ever will be.
Congrats to Marti!

I love her writing. I love her singing pleas to traffic cops.

What I donít love... (Wait for it)

Öis not seeing enough of her writing.

Season 6, out of context, may not be everyone's cup of tea, but when taken as the whole of a character and mythology arc, she rocked that season! In a collaborative medium she very much holds her own and lays waste to many. I wish I had a tenth of her creativity and vision. She may be "90 at a Buffy Convention" but Iíll still get in the Marti Noxon line!

Here's hoping Joss taps her for a story or two for season 8!

[ edited by Shahua on 2007-03-14 15:46 ]
Boy oh boy! A person takes one night off from Whedonesque...

Congratulations Marti Noxon! To be hired as an EP on one of the hottest shows on TV is huge.

Good for Joss to break silence to stand up for one of his peeps. Also, thanks to him for giving us another clue in the Who Wrote What game. MN did rewriting on Halloween, huh? Good to know. I always really liked that episode.

I have to admit, I don't understand the BtVS and Ats writer hate that I read (including the Joss hate.) They are just people doing a job as best they can, and almost always amazingly well. Call me a kiss-ass but I have an incredible amount of respect for all the people that worked on these shows...except maybe for a couple actors who had minor parts...none of them singing.

Favorite Marti episodes. Tough because she mostly had those difficult, move the story along, tie up things in a bundle, episodes. At the moment New Moon Rising comes to mind because I just read it again, and it did such a good job of dealing with all the emotional transitions and conflicts that the characters were going through. It is the examination of complex emotional inner conflict and how it manifests in actions that I loved so much in S6.

[Expletive of choice], BtVS had such a great team.
I got like 10 replies in before I realized there was far too many for me to read and since there is no way I'm going to sit here and read all these replies, I want to apologize if this has been said before. Kyrax, from what I understand it's quite uncommon to have that many women on staff. I might be completely wrong though but I vaguely remember some article I read making a big deal about how many women, or that the show runners were all women or some such.

I'm a computer scientist so I will summarize with a series of equations:
Marti Noxon = Awesome
Greys Anatomy = Awesome
Greys Anatomy + Marti Noxon = Awesome^2
Actually it would be 2*Awesome. Awesome^2 would occur if you were multiplying the two.
Heh, I was wondering whether to point that out but I wanted the reassurance that at least one other person was as pedantic as me ;-).
I think it's fair to say, Saje, that there are easily as many pedants as non-pedants on whedonesque...

But that's okay - I think that pedants are awesome2. Maybe that's because I am one...
Season 7 is by far my favourite season of Buffy. It's not even close. If Marti Noxon had anything to do with the direction of the final seasons of Buffy, I will love her forever for it.

Congrats, Marti!
Late to the party as usual. This is about to slip off the front page, but I just need to say that I watched Buffy all the way through, S2 to S7. I caught up on S1 after that. And my favourite season was S6. I didn't even know that people hated it with such a passion until I read about it online (Whedonesque posters certainly enlightened me). I didn't know who the show-runners were, and became a Joss-fan later based on the overall quality of the Buffy series, which is my favourite show ever. I've never quite gotten the Marti-bashing, although I'll readily admit that my favourite writers are Mr Whedon and Ms Espenson (based on individual episodes). It's a matter of personal preference. My sister told me that she likes the Marti episodes, and thinks that MN cops a lot of unfair flack.

Also, in the interest of Shallow!Viewing, let me just say that Willow going dark is the sexiest thing ever. I think Marti's style of writing - charactery/drama - is probably a very good fit with Greys' Anatomy. I only saw the first season, and wasn't particularly impressed. They have lots of pretty people, but that only keeps my interest for so long. I heard that the 2nd season was better, but never got back into it. Congratulations Marti.
"Marti Noxon = Awesome
Greys Anatomy = Awesome
Greys Anatomy + Marti Noxon = Awesome^2
war_machine | March 14, 17:04 CET

Actually it would be 2*Awesome. Awesome^2 would occur if you were multiplying the two.
theyarescientists | March 14, 18:09 CET"

Maybe this is a case where adding MN and GA creates a chain reaction that ends up multiplying Awesomeness...but then I guess it would have to be written differently. ;-)
Personally, I'm looking forward to the day when "Season X of Buffy vs Season N of Buffy" discussions are recognised as being as tiresome and pointless as "who's gonna play Wonder Woman?"

Never going to happen of course. Everything these poor people do for the rest of their working lives is going to be held up and compared to "Episode K in Season Y of J-verse"

Are we ever going to draw a line under TV Buffy and Angel and Firefly let them move on with their work and their lives?
Hrm. I missed the excitement. Oh, well. Just add me to the pro-Marti list (although the show in question here isn't my thing), for the record, and I'll go back to whatever it was I was doing instead of being over here.
I know this is off the home page now, but .... Reddygirl,(re. "Goodbye Iowa") great minds think alike & are often in a minority :)
I really understand the "let them move on" sentiments, but Marti was a part of a phenomenom unlike any other in the history of TV, as were all the rest of the writers, directors, actors & producers of all the Jossverse shows. They will always be related to this marvelous, unweildly segment of fandom. What a wonderful thing, that it can still conjure so much passion.
My first thought when I saw that Marti was taking over the show was
'oooooh i'm gonna have to start watching Greys anatomy'

I thought she did a great Job on buffy. hell I honestly cant think an episode from season six I didn't like. and really if there is anything I don't like about an episode there is always alot of other stuff going on that i do like. thats why I love the show so much.
Never seen much of Grey's Anatomy, but I do love me some Noxon work, so I might check it out. Shows are just better with her working on them.
Maybe they are just that awesome though. So awesome that when added they in fact join forces of awesome in such a way as to become exponentially awesome rather than linear. Like the Wonder Twins, only where both their powers are useful. Or Voltron. Yeah Voltron. Cause 5 lion robots separately is good, but even larger human looking robot with a giant laser sword is better. Or maybe I should never try to make a math joke again. :(

[ edited by war_machine on 2007-03-15 13:01 ]
I'm going to give Grey's a second chance, because of the exponential awesomeness of MN.

[ edited by toast on 2007-03-15 14:16 ]
Yay, I enjoy Grey's! I am excited that Marti is going to be involved more. I wish her tons of luck! And I'll be watching tonight!
Congrats Marti!!

As someone that spent High School and most of College working at a fast food restaurant whose initials are BK and has a very freaky looking king as a mascot, I can tell you, Double Meat Palace was dead on about the type of people working there and about the management, and the feeling you get when you work there, and the coming home feeling and smelling of grease, and the making out with the vampire in the alley.... oh, wait ;-)

Anyway, it was a great ep!

-- The soon to be "Mrs." of another Joss fan!!

[ edited by WilliamTheBloody on 2007-03-16 19:07 ]
Congrats, WilliamTheBloody - may your transformation into marriage partner be all that you desire.

May we then call you MrsWilliamTheBloody? 'Cause what an effulgent name...
Let me add my congratulations, WilliamtheBloody. I'm so glad you can share this passion. Does he post here?
Hi Lioness, no he doesn't, but if I remember you correctly, you met him (along with me) at the Serenity pre-screening in Toronto.

OOO, I can be Mrs Spike *sigh*.......

Oh, and mmmcookies (Did I get all the m's?) now my mom has to listen to my father tease her about being a "Mother in law", LOL

[ edited by WilliamTheBloody on 2007-03-19 14:15 ]

[ edited by WilliamTheBloody on 2007-03-19 14:16 ]
Congrats to Marti Noxon! This brings to mind the Buffy interview where Marti Noxon talked about loving to kill characters. I liked that one a lot. Drama. :) I couldn't really get into the plot of Grey's though. It'll be interesting if I like it more in the future after this.

edited for clarity

[ edited by Sunfire on 2007-03-20 20:44 ]

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