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"Why aren't you awesomed by me!"
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March 15 2007

(SPOILER) Hercules has seen Buffy season 8.1! Remember the good old days when we'd avidly wait for detailed Buffy episode spoilers from the usual suspects? Well they're kinda back. A page by page run through of the first issue of Buffy season 8 (courtesy of AICN's Herc) awaits you.

This would be a good place as any to have a(nother) Whedonesque discussion thread about the first issue. I thought it was great btw.

My local comic shop is sold out :(. But its ok cause I'm on the reserve list for the next shipment next week.
You know what's really cool?I'm sitting here at my keyboard with issue 1 of Buffy season 8 on my left side of the desk.On my right side of the desk,I have Angel:Auld Lang Syne #5 sitting there.New Buffy on one side,new Angel on the other.Freaky and neat to me.

I loved the first issue.It so great reading Joss's dialog and hearing the actors saying it in my head.Nice re-introduction to Buffy,Xander and Dawn.And the last page......boy she looks freaky.

Also some nice news,in my shop some new customers were picking up the issue due to the hype and media attention.Big Buffy fans but never read a comic before.When they saw issues of the IDW Angel books,they picked some of them up too not realizing Angel The Series has comics too.So season 8 might be a nice boost also for the IDW Angel line.
Got my copy today, and, yes, it was fun imagining the actors saying the lines in my head. Nice to have canon Buffy around again. But it's so tantalizing -- I hate how quickly one gets through the "episode."
I just want to know who belonged to the boots and duster(or cape) floating above the castle...
Woo and hoo. I'm about to start reading mine for the second time. The voices of our beloved gang are there, my friends. And of course the evil Joss-master leaves us begging for more. It's like I just had a really good meal, after having starved in the desert for 3 years. Melodramatic, moi?
This was my first trip to a comic store to buy my first comic book. I'm in Dallas now, which is good because my home town does not have a comic book store. So I used DH's comic book locator to find my shop. I went to Keith's Comics and the guys there were very nice to me. (Thanks!)
I ripped through mine because I wanted to know what happens. I didn't even wait until I got home because I was going straight to class, so I read it in the car. Not while driving, in the parking lot.


My thoughts:
This issue was laying the groundwork for what's to come, but it still delivered. Since this is my first comic book, I was surprised to see ads in between sections. The voices are there even though they're just words on a page in speech bubbles. The dialogue is crisp, the humor great and I reacted to Xander's body language. Don't ask me why, I just did. I can see movement in Xander's panels. Anyway, I can't wait for next month!
Luckily for me, I had 2 copies pulled for me, but I actually wanted 4 as I told two workmates about it and offered to get copies for them. I couldn't. It was sold out. Bob, the comic book store owner said that there must have been 10 people waiting for him to open this morning. That it was very unusual and he was glad it had been delayed a week as it gave him time to order more, although, as it turned out, still not enough.
I read it quickly for the story and only really heard Dawn's voice in my head but I will reread it again tomorrow and linger over the dialogue this time.
So, Willow is missing. Nice. And Amy is back and evil. Also nice. Do we assume that at least one of these plot lines will be wrapped up in the next 3 issues?
Damned these month-long reality commercials. Is there a way to zip around them? If I get in my car and ride around the block over and over and over really fast, will the next episode come any quicker?

I was definitely impressed with Buffy seasion 8.1. Yeah, if it were the TV-series, it'd be an expensive first act. Love the camera angles, the sets, etc.

Makes me wish the powers-that-be would put together a Buffy movie. Won't happen, of course. It'd make way too much money. Success is an anathema for Hollywood these days. They'd rather play it safe and give us and endless supply of T&A (i.e. Tedious and Asinine).
All I have to say is poor Dawn. And is it just me, or does it seem like Joss always portrays the act of sex as having negative consequences?

Oh, and great art throughout. I'm really liking the cover for next issue. Hopefully I'll be able to wait that long. :)
I told my comic shop owner a few months ago that I wanted about 10 copies and sure enough when I showed this morning, they were waiting for me. My advice to him at the time was that whatever number he was going to order, he should add 100 to it. So he ordered 150 copies instead of 50. He was sold out by noon. From the posts in this thread, I think we are going to see a big sellout!

I thought this was a brilliant start to Buffy's triumphant return! Great work Joss and Georges!

Can't wait for the next issue.

(edited for grammar)

[ edited by alexreager on 2007-03-15 02:45 ]
I ordered mine from TFAW, but couldn't wait for their delayed shipment next week. They first store (Glendale CA) I called laughed at me when I asked if they still had copies. They had tons and there was absolutely no reason to reserve one.

Not trusting the guy, I quickly drove over to the store and saw that they had TONS left including about a dozen variant covers (marked up to $5). I am betting this guy ordered at least 200 copies. I hope they sell well for him.

I wonder if he was just more prepared than other shop owners or if living within spitting distance to the studios makes for a different comics crowd.
Crap. Because of the one-week delay, I'm not near a comic book shop this week. I hope I don't miss this.
Anyway, I always loved Herc's reviews on Tuesday afternoons, and now look forward to these. I had a feeling they'd be back.
TamaraC...Legacy Comics? Are we in the same 'hood? I went after work and they had a ton.

Though I don't think they're used to women in their store, because as I was waiting in line(behind someone buying both covers of the Death of Capt America) to purchase the comic, one of the workers was like, "Uh, ma'am, do you have a question?" I held up the comic, showing that I was purchasing something, and he was like, "Oh!" When I got up to him, he told me there was a second cover if I wanted to buy both. I declined, cuz I'm a reader and not a collector, and also cuz the other cover wasn't very pretty.
I must confess I not only bought the copy set aside for me, but when I saw they had an alternate cover, I picked one of those up as well. According to my husband, that makes me a patsy. So be it! *sheepish grin*

Arabchick, I highly recommend Zeus Comics here in Dallas. That's where my husband makes his many, many, many weekly purchases. (So really, who is the patsy in this relationship?)
We were there when the store opened this morning. No line but I did notice the Buffy comics were in a holder right by the register. It'll be interesting to see the sales figures.
Rogue Slayer, we are indeed in the same hood. That is cool. Yep, I went to Legacy. He was pretty confused by a woman being in there. I bought the variant cover and he awkwardly pointed out that there was a different cover that was cheaper. Like I didn't have to reach behind 100 copies of the other cover to get mine.
I revise my earlier statement. I have only had the first course of what promises to be a gourmet feast. So, Buffy's "squad" is composed of a Japanese "catgirl" slayer, a redheaded Scot, and a German (possibly Scandinavian?) Apparently the US govt is regarding them as dangerous terrorists. An intriguing marking upon the victims, who were casting a force field. Xander Harris, large and in charge. Willow is MIA. Dawn's gone positively Brobdingnabian, and what the heck is a thricewise? Buffy apparently needs to get some (new love interest this season?) Amy and a technologically-oriented...being, are possibly the Big Bads (aren't Adam and Warren pretty definitively dead?) But whoa would that mess with Willow if Warren were resurrected! And where's the Real Watcher? What do we think, peeps?
After a five year drought we got a new comic book store in my hometown. They’ve been open about five months. The first thing I asked when I went in was, “Are you getting Buffy?” Today they did. I ordered two copies, but got three. Much to my surprise, one was the variant cover, which I kind of prefer. I didn’t even ask for it. Thanks to Heroes Haven.

My 2 cents …
All I can say is, “WOW!” It’s Buffy and a whole lot more. It is short, but most comics are these days, which is a pity. But it’s all cool, and I haven’t been this excited about a comic in a long time.
Wore my BtVS baseball cap all day in solidarity. Called my local comic shop- thank goodness the man who runs it is an older person, totally lacking in smarm. He had already set aside my two copies, and I'll get them on Friday.

*Bonus* He also had gotten in the Fred figure with braids that I'd been hankerin' for, so yay and squee, I'll be Whedoning-out this weekend with my new purchases!

It feels sooo good to be getting some new (real and Jossy) Buffy! I'm WAY more excited about this than a woman my age has a right to be. Tried really hard to wait for the trades, because of the annoying brevity inherant in comics, but I just couldn't.

Suck it, skeptics. :D
Variant cover? O wise ones, what does that mean? I have a Buffy #1 comic with our fair slayer levering open the mouth of a drooling green monster. What does the other one look like?

Was anyone else just really glad to see everyone again? Xander! Buffy! Really Huge Dawn! Sure, some of the gang were only namechecked, like Willow and Giles, but despite that I feel just like I'm checking in with old friends. It gave me warm fuzzy feelings to see Xander and Buffy working closely together again. There was no mention of Xander's African adventures which were all we really knew of what became of him since "Chosen." My first time reading through the issue when they fished the something out of the remains of Sunnydale I was half-afraid, half-hoping that it would be Anya. Well, I got the first letter right.

In summary: yay!
It really felt like "Buffy"...and I was unsure of the whole thing at first, not being much of a comic fan...but I could practically hear the Scoobies saying these lines...and yes, Jamie it was kind of short, wasn't it? Wouldn't have filled a whole episode :)
Picked up my copy today and just got finished reading it. Thought it was pretty good. Have to say I think this series is off to a good start. And the first issue was a good starting point. As I was reading it I could plainly hear the character's voices in my head. And the first issue is full of that witty dialouge that Joss is known for. I'll probably go back and read it again later as I was so excited I went through the first read fairly quickly. We've been waiting since July and it's finally here. Yay! It's good to have Buffy back!
I was at Big Planet Comics at opening time. And took an early lunch to read it. And felt the need to speculate, meditate and postulate.

[ edited by Pointy on 2007-03-15 04:24 ]
My one complaint is.. where did they get all the money for the advanced weaponry and SHIELD-like headquarters etc.? Sure, comics can be crazier because it doesn't cost anything to draw helicopters and explosions and space age technology compared to filming it, but in the story I don't know how Buffy (no job) and Xander (construction worker) and Giles (no job) are paying for helicopters. I assume Whedon will explain it soon, because there is no Tony Stark in the Buffyverse to pay for these things.

Unless that really was Mr. Stark with the General..


(Loved every second of 8.1. I'm sure I'm speaking too soon.)
Prosperina, you actually have the variant cover. The majority have this cover.
I suppose it's partially my fault that the Legacy store isn't used to females, because even though the Glendale store is the closest to me, I always go to a store in Studio City instead, because they're more likely to get the Angel and Spike comics. The owner said he bought 250 copies of the Buffy comic. Hope he sells out. I forgot to look for an alternate cover, though, although I always get one of each of the Angel and Spike covers that I can find, so maybe I'll swing by Legacy tomorrow to look for it. Let them be invaded by all the female Buffy fans in Glendale this week.
The shortness of narrative in comics, I will admit, bothers me. Still, I'm desperate to know who the floating guy is, and who Amy's boyfriend is.

The weapon Buffy found in the the lair looks like an M-4 carbine (the shorter, lighter version of the M-16). It's what most of the cool American kids in Iraq and Afghanistan are wearing, so I'm guessing that it's meant to suggest a connection betweeen the "victims" and the aggressors who are after the slayers. But who knows?
...Hm, the varient cover is actually rare enough to be marked up? Grr, I went out of my way to get a Jo Chen one mostly since I heart her paintings. I sort of wonder if I'd sell my single issues to pick up trades instead when they come out, since they're a lot more tolerable to read without ads getting in the way...

As for there being no Tony Stark in the Buffyverse (though I always thought that a Scott Summers might be a possibility...) Keep in mind that those nerds in-between high school and college managed to build a frickin' "life-model-decoy" if we're going with Marvel-terminology, so I'm assuming that they found a way. Maybe they picked them up at a Wolfram and Hart holdings liquidation.

Oh the curiosity about Amy's boyfriend thingie that seems to be gross... (And the continued questioning of what exactly a thricewise is. As made up words go, it's entirely plausible.)
deanna b, at least I know who to blame now.
I happily went off to the comic book store after work, bought two copies (didn't see the variant covers), and saw an old friend, from whom I got a big hug. The comic itself was awesome, and I laughed and enjoyed every page.

Was anyone besides me concerned that guns were in use? They're usually "of the bad" in the Buffyverse: "these things? Never useful."

Anyway, I'm thrilled.
k8cre8, I was a bit put off by Buffy blasting forcefields with big guns too. That's the main way it didn't feel 'Buffyesque' to me, but then hubby reminded me of the rocket launcher. Even so, I'd prefer less 'jumping out of helicopters and shooting things'. It's a bit jarring for me when I'm trying to immerse myself in that world again.
I'm still waiting for my copy ordered through TFAW. :( I still have to wait another week (so they say). The copies in this area are likely to fly off the shelves, but maybe I'll check tomorrow anyway.

Or I can wait (though I am off from work this week, so I have time to read it). I'm an adult. I can wait. :/
Squee! I, too, was so glad to see the gang again, especially Xander. Turning the pages of the ads (slowly) felt like waiting impatiently through the tv commercials yet loving every anticipatory moment, not wanting it to end too soon. April cannot come soon enough.

I'll admit to having to ask my husband about Nick Fury (I'm a clueless-comic girl) and then Wikied the details. Tee Hee. This has opened up a door to a new world of geekdom. Thank you, Joss!
Well, I've gone and done it. Got out the phone book to see if there's a comics shop in Hilo, and much to my surprise, there is! (Exactly one).
Now I just have to call & see if they're going to get the Buffy series in, & if not, find out if I can get them to order it. I feel so corrupted, I'm far too old for this. As in, I'm the one who should be doing the corrupting :)
In the meantime, I'll be looking online for the most spoilery stuff I can find, because obsession or no, it still isn't like a TV series. For which I have threatnerd death to someone who tried to feed me spoilers.
I'm glad you felt the same, Rogue Slayer. I had to keep re-orienting to the gun toter as Buffy, not someone else, rocket launcher aside.

On the whole, I've missed them so much, I was mostly just glad to see them. Xander "Fury" was definitely a highlight.
I don't know if that's a gun, exactly. She said the field was vaped after she fired, as in vaporized. Laser maybe?

And as far as where the money's coming from, I assume Giles has access to the CoW's accounts. And they were such cheap bastards. Remember "All those alchemists on the Council and we still have to fly coach"? And having Faith stay in that sleazy motel? That money had to be squirreled away somewhere.

My fave moment was turning the page and seeing giant Dawn.
Still cracks me up.
At some stage we'll be updating the quotes thing on the top right hand corner, so has anyone has got any favourite lines from the first issue?
""
I just want to know who belonged to the boots and duster(or cape) floating above the castle...


My prediction is that it's our missing Willow. I mean, who else do we know who flies like that?

My other big prediction is that the thing/guy Amy was keeping alive with magic was Adam or something else from the remains of the Initiative. It would satisfy the spoilers that we're getting a return character as the Big Bad and explain why they were so grossed out. Of course it doesn't explain the weird mushy green stuff on the inside of the cell door...

[ edited by JCapra on 2007-03-15 10:06 ]
Hmmm, favorite lines, well the one I adored was this, Buffy: "Went okay. 'Cept I feel a little weird about using a crucifix to kill someone." Slayer: "Yeh dinno much about religion, do yeh?", though i suppose that might be a little long for the mostly short blurbs that occupy the top corner.

And I also really liked this line, "Outstanding. I can't even feel sorry for myself in a linear fashion." Warm, delicious cookie-ness all around.
Once again call mean old misery but I have to say I wasn't all that keen on this at all.

I know it's very early days yet, and this is a scene setter so I'm holding off till I've read more.
I picked up my two copies yesterday. The comic store I went too had a bunch on display and I was able to pick up the 2 covers.

8.1 was a great start. It was very Buffy. I loved Buffy and Xander talking about the symbol she and her girls found. And that last page was perfect.
I've just read my copy and it was so good. Congratualtions to all involved. Here's my fivepeneth (five pence's worth of opinion if you're not from Lancashire!):

Perhaps the black floating feet belong to whomever the self-tattoed dead guys were working for?

Wow giant Dawn! How are they feeding her? Also when Buffy says, 'You don't have to be in Scotland. You have to be at Berkeley' is that a Richard II reference? Berkeley's an American university isn't it (?) so maybe not, but I have to say I went straight to:
'How far is it, my lord, to Berkeley now?'(Shakespeare, Richard II, Act 2, Scene 3.)
These are the first words Henry Bolingbroke says when he returns to England to claim his inheritance and, arguably, to vest the throne from Richard. Berkeley castle becomes the seat of his operations. Is this a hint Dawn will try to usurp Buffy at some point in the future?

Amy wants cheese, not just because of the whole rat thing, but because she's being paralled with Buffy who we all know likes cheese?

Adverts in the middle are confusing!

And, Simon, 'I miss my Mom' is heart-wrenchingly poignant but my favourite line has to be, 'Great Muppety Odin, I miss that sex.' The idea of a Muppet version of the great Norse God entertained this early medieval historian no end!
Thanks, karosurly for explaining the variant cover thing. Neat.

As for favorite quotes, how about Xander's line "...but your nerd points are accumulating impressively." Very Xander. Very funny. The "Great Muppety Odin" bit was awesome too.

I was kinda hoping that whenever we saw Dawn again, her story would have something to do with her Keyness or someway that she is being useful to the mission. Ginormous Dawn is really funny, but after the inital shock, I'm not sure where they're going with it. I'll just have to wait and see.

And so they're in a castle in Scotland? Did anyone else think Hogwarts?
I like "your butt looks big in those giant pants." The Buffy-Dawnness of it was so spot on. I've now read this issue four times. For relatively few pages, there is so much packed in it. I'm crazy to know who's floating above the abandoned castle in the duster. The mysterious "smile turned upside down" symbol and the mysterious slaughtered do-gooders (?) bearing said symbol remind me of the mysterious robotic do-gooders (?) in the AtS S5 episode involving Wesley's robot father. As for who "Subject Two" is, I wonder if it isn't Rack?

Also, is it just me who felt a warm fuzzy to see Sunnydale again, even if it is now a giant pit? Speaking of the post-Chosen Sunnydale pit, didn't Lindsay also go down into the pit to find the amulet Spike wore in order to bring Spike back? It's funny/eerie to think of Lindsay and Amy down there together, if but for a brief period.

I wonder if we'll find out what happened in Orvieto? Maybe in an Andrew-related panel or two.
ArielWillow;there is a Uni of Califronia cmapus in the city of Berkeley but that doesn't mean (hey, Joss writing this, rememeber) that it *isn't* a Shakespeare reference.

And the "what's with the old-school mustahce on the lab tech" comment...her Herc, I resmeble that remark! (well I would e xcept since the old battleaxe left me in 2001 I went to a full beard.)
I'm going to believe it's a Shakespeare reference and then probably be proved utterly wrong by a cunning plot twist!
Entropy said:
"Hmmm, favorite lines, well the one I adored was this, Buffy: "Went okay. 'Cept I feel a little weird about using a crucifix to kill someone." Slayer: "Yeh dinno much about religion, do yeh?"

That IS really funny Entropy! I totally missed that. There is something about comics that just doesn't get into my brain the way a show or even a book does.
I just have to ask - is Amy is cahoots with the "Cheese Man"? "I wear the cheese but the cheese does not wear me."
My one complaint is.. where did they get all the money for the advanced weaponry and SHIELD-like headquarters etc.?

Yeah, that was definitely the hardest thing ofr me to get used to - just different to see Buffy as head of a major crime-fighting organization with headquarters and weapons and high-tech gadgets. But, this needed to set a different tone - after all, Sunnydale is gone, and there are now several thousand slayers – and I'm already getting used to it.
Most important, for me, is that the dialogue and feel for the characters all seemed spot-on, and it was so great to have them back, even for such a short teaser of an "episode." I agree that this seemed mainly like a (very enjoyable) set-up for what's to come, and I can't wait - lots of intriguing things left hanging....
Well, I can only assume Amy's boyfriend is someone gruesome. Or inhuman. Could be a giant rat...or not.

Could be Rack, because by now he'd be pretty ripe. One of the 'borg soldiers is possible, because they were pretty hideous already. Hey, maybe it's Warren, sans skin.
Maybe they are just going to build a big cheese trap for Buffy :)
Ah, I got all excited by the mention of Rack, 'cause I've been racking my brains to figure out who subject two is. But Willow killed him during her rampage in season six, didn't she? Anyway he wouldn't want a weapons lab.
Oh! I had another thought! The monsters in the church reminded me a great deal of the monsters/demons/whatever that were behind Urkon in Fray. I need to go back and check, but, I wonder if that was coincidence. Maybe this might indicate that the symbol is related to that future.
This issue was everything I had hoped for since the Season 8 comics were first announced. :)
Rogue Slayer, I sort of love your Warren notion. It's already been established that Amy is linked to Warren - remember her spell on Willow in Season 7 when Willow went all Warren-y? (Although Amy didn't choose Warren, I think, for Willow to disappear into. I remember Amy being somewhat surprised that Warren was the form that Willow chose.) Perhaps Amy met Warren in Season Six and they hooked up off-screen. After Willow flayed him, Amy rescusitated him by magic? That would explain Warren being able to be used by the First.

Also, Warren might want a weapons lab. (I agree, dreamlogic, Rack probably wouldn't want a weapons lab.) He seemed mighty taken by guns in Season 6.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2007-03-15 19:03 ]
As for Buffy's gun, she seems to only be using it to blast through the forcefield around the castle. As for the other weapons, well those are big friggin' demons, bigger than anything that was on the show, 'cept for the Mayor ala snake demon. We know how they took him out. It could also be alluding to Fray as Mel had a gun in her first splash page. :)
My favorite line was when Buffy said she was a big girl now. I also love that it came in a scene that juxtaposed grown up Buffy with Grown Dawn. (I'm also assuming that Buffy missing 'that' sex means that the fade to black scene in Chosen that Joss gave us permission to think might be sexual was well, sexual.)

I love Xander. I love Xander. It needs to be said more than once. I love the Andrew bits. Since Buffy had no idea why Andrew would think her dating the Immortal would be funny, can we assume that Andrew has kept some things from her? Like Angel and Spike in Italy...or even that Spike is 'alive'?

The markings on the boys' chests look a little like the carvings on Spike's chest the first used to open the Hellmouth. Could the boys have been trying to open either a new Hellmouth or door into a Hell dimension?

And I like the idea of it being Warren as well.
"Your butt looks big in those giant pants," was my favorite line too.I think the guy floating above the abandoned castle/church is going to be our season's big bad.

I'm thinking the sex comment is just the idea that she can enjoy at least the idea of sex for it's own sake.As for Andrew,at this point I don't think we have enough info to know one way or the other about how much Buffy knows about what went on in season 5 of Angel except that Andrew came up with The Immortal sham and lied to Angel and Spike about it as well as lying about Buffy being in Rome.Anything else,we'll have to wait for future issues and spoilers just like the old days.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-03-15 20:11 ]
I have to second "Outstanding. I can't even feel sorry for myself in a linear fashion." The frown turned upside down line was really good too-- and so Xander.

I also wondered where the money is coming from, and Subject 2 is a lovely mystery. I think it's the same person referenced in the #3 preview who wants revenge against Willow. But Joss is sneaky. I have to reread everything and think about it more. The previews are very cleverly worded.
(I'm also assuming that Buffy missing 'that' sex means that the fade to black scene in Chosen that Joss gave us permission to think might be sexual was well, sexual.)

I assumed she was referring to the rocking sex of Season 6, but you could be right. Or, she could be referring to sex she had with someone else between Chosen and now...but I choose not to think that!
Buffyfantic, I absolutely agree that the sex line is there to show that Buffy is free of the whole sex = dirty girl thing. But the qualifer "that" seems to imply she's missing sex with someone in particular.

Rogue Slayer, she could definitely be refering to sex with a mysterious someone else(Clem?:)) but she seems fairly forlorn about it doesn't she? She seems to missing all the things she's lost since the Hellmouth closed.
As far as the sex thing is concerned, I think it's pretty straight forward. She's just a girl pondering normal girl stuff. Not necessarily having a ‘who’ in mind, but wishing things were different. At the end of season seven, she had the promise of a life that was finally hers, but as we see, it didn’t go that way.

My concern is; who is 'floaty feet' and who is 'subject two?' I think there will be a lot of burning of the midnight DVD to figure that out.
I think straight forward would have been, 'I miss sex.' Kind of like, 'I miss hot dogs.' Now when you say, 'I miss that hot dog', it implies a particular hot dog. Besides, she's in Scotland, I'm pretty sure she can have sex in Scotland:)
Ramses 2 I'm not sure sex has reached Scotland yet. It doesn't seem to be that popular... Btw, was the 'hot dog' reference intentionally naughty??

I personally think Joss threw in 'that' very much on purpose...maybe more just to have us in a tizzy than anything else!

And at the risk of letting my Spuffy show...my opinion, it had to be Spike. I mean, the one time with Angel may have been nice, but the repercussions probably tainted the memory. And while Riley was...sweet and nice...he, uh...yeah, whatever, it was Spike!

But I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinion, as wrong as it may be.

j/k... :~P

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2007-03-15 22:24 ]
My latest hypothesis involves Amy and Caleb; He's split in two but being held together by Amy magic.
Rogue how could you ask such a thing? Of course it was intentional:)

I think Joss threw that in to start things churning as well. Ahh, good times!
I think the "that sex" comment clearly referred to Buffy having had secret sex with Puppet Angel - hence her saying "Great MUPPETY Odin". Duh.

That said, the fade to black scene in "Chosen" clearly had Buffy and Spike talking - or fighting. Cause Joss gave us all "permission" to think that too. *laughs*
I love that it was Andrew's idea for the fake Buffy to date the Immortal.

I liked Xander's Fury line.

And I agree, I think Amy is dating Adam - maybe she found his body and gave him a mystical power source.
Bought it, loved it. I quite liked the Jeanty cover when I saw it actually on the book so I bought both (and I virtually never do that). What the hell, it's not like it's out every month ... Huh, whaddya mean ? ;).

The dialogue was absolutely spot on and it just felt so great to actually be in Buffy's head (rare for the TV show, every issue for the comic) - the non-linear self-pity stuff was excellent. I could totally hear/see Nick Brendon's voice becoming more animated when Xander started serious and then just geeked out on Sgt. Fury and Dawn's "frickin' freezing" line was so Dawn.

Re: gun, hmm, yeah but definitely a big fantasy blaster type thing, more a 'directed device' than an actual gun and only used against force shields.

Re: money, well, there's a lot of Slayers now (1800, that they've counted ;) couldn't some of them have trust funds ? Also, I bet Buffy had Earthquake insurance, Sunnydale was in Southern California after all.

Re: sex in Scotland, nope, never happens, you have to actually sign a declaration at the border. Y'know how athletes sometimes abstain before a big competition ? Well, in order to finally get a team past the first round of the World Cup the entire country has decided to abstain in one big push. Possibly.

I think the floaty feet could well be Willow. Subject 2 i'm not sure about but, as has been mentioned, only Adam or Warren would want or need a weapons lab, all the other bads I can think of were magic oriented (and Warren being kept magically alive still missing his skin would certainly produce the sort of reaction we see the General have).

Nit picks ? Hmm. Err, the spirals on the castle staircase are going the wrong way (or the rare way at least). It's to do with swords and right-handedness ;). Also, did anyone else think "Frickin hell, how old were those stained glass windows they just smashed to bits ?" ? Just me then ;).

Brilliant start, set the scene but gave us plenty of real content too. Roll on 4th April.
I was going to be all patient and mature and wait for my subscription, but then I thought 'who am I kidding?' and ran out to my local comic book store (and got their last copy). I am THRILLED, thrilled I tell you! I am so glad I wasn't completely spoiled. I'll be doubly careful not to get spoiled for the future.
I think it's a vague enough comment that anybody can think what they want.My opinion is that it's not really specific enough to say.To me,it came off as just missing that sort of raw commitment free sex in general.She's a woman in her early twenty's with a healthy sex drive and hasn't gotten any that we know of in about two years.I would be itchy too to get some by that point.lol
That said, the fade to black scene in "Chosen" clearly had Buffy and Spike talking - or fighting. Cause Joss gave us all "permission" to think that too. *laughs*

Funnily enough, I don't think they had sex either. Or at least I have a hard time imagining it. Well, not imagining Spuffy sex, cuz I can so imagine that, but at that point...I am hard pressed to think they did. Though, bless my hubby's heart, he's been trying to convince me. Actually, the Spuffy in me kind of hopes they didn't. For various reasons that don't belong here.

But you may be onto something with the Puppet Angel...Or hell, maybe a Muppity Odin came down and gave her a seeing too...it's not out of the realm in her realm!
Just finished reading it... wow, It is so good the have Buffy back!!! and see Joss directing even in the drawn form... I had to yell out a few times while reading... I was glad I had no idea was coming and can't friggin wait for the next one...
Yamsham ...and yes, Jamie it was kind of short, wasn't it?

Yeah. I'm trying to decide if this whole comic would even get us to the first commercial break. ;)
Please don't throw things at me, but am I the only person who thought that maybe the "great muppety odin i miss that sex" line was a wee bit odd for Buffy to say? It's not odd that she would miss sex, it's Buffy, but the "great muppety odin" just sounded odd to me coming from Buffy. Xander i could imagine saying that, it's just hard for me to hear Buffy saying or thinking that.

Everything else in this issue that Xander, Dawn and Buffy said was so spot on I could hear their voices and tones as clearly as if it were on screen, just that one tiny little line seemed strange to me. Even so, it was a funny line, just wondered if anyone else thought that as well.
I'm with you, Entropy. Way more a Xander line than something Buffy would say. It felt wrong. So, when they throw things, it'll be at two of us, and it'll only hurt half as much :)
Are we still using this thread?


Two cents:
Warren never died AT ALL!! Willow flayed him alive AND made him unkillable so he could eternally suffer! Evil Willow is MESSED UP! But now .. Warren has some crazy powerful immortality spell that Good Willow can't reverse because she'll never have that much passionate fury again!


And then Warren made it with Amy in the inside out hellmouth and wants some weapons because it stings to punch people.** That's gotta be it.


About the money.. 1800+ Slayer trust funds: somewhat plausible. Or Watcher's Council money. But now.. who built the stuff? The weapons and control room are really put together and I don't think over a summer Buffy figured out how to network satellites. The US Military/Initiative is probably the only organization capable of coming up with that stuff and they are on the other side of the fence of Buffy's terror cells. And as much as Wolfram and Hart could help, I can't see them arming a worldwide army against their clients. They gave Angel power because they thought he was worthless in the big picture. They were wrong. Doubt they'll try that plan again.



**Edit: It probably stings a lot worse to "make it" with no skin, but that probably wouldn't stop Warren Lovebot anyway.

[ edited by Awkward Saw on 2007-03-16 02:59 ]
I've always assumed the Watcher's Counsel had a lot of funds at its disposal and Giles was able to access all the cash.

One of the things that really made me steam was the patriarchal attitude toward the slayers: watchers were paid but the young women risking their lives were expected to live at home or get outside jobs.

I'm assuming Buffy has changed all that and the women get shown respect in a very important way: they draw a salary and get health benefits. Oh, and paid vacation.

The reference to sex sounds very specific, so I think she's talking about Riley, Spike or someone we don't know about.
Entropy and shambleau, I agree with you about that "muppety" line. It rang a little strange to me, too. Much more Xanderish than Buffyish to me. But I ain't complainin'. No sir.
I liked the line cos, funny ;). Maybe slightly out of character but remember, we're hearing her thoughts. We all think a whole lot of stuff that'd sound strange coming out of our mouths.

Different paradigm kids ;).
Yeah the line was funny. Plus you hang out with someone long enough you start to pick up on their way of speech, and while it may not become part of yours, you can/will certainly channel it.
Great Muppety Odin is definitely going to be my new catchphrase.

Hooray new Buffy!
Oh yeah. The reference to sex was definitely Spike-based.

Spike: "I don't call five hours straight a little while."

[Barney] SAY WHAT! [/Barney]
I dunno, I think if Joss wanted it to be so person specific with regard to "that sex" he would just say it. Plus, if Buffy still believes that Spike is dead and all she says is that she misses the sex? Not the greatest of compliments to him....

And if she knows he's alive - well she's still only thinking about the sex.

I do believe the sex comment is a general comment that could apply to any of the guys she's had sex with - we know she had great stamina per Parker the poopy head, she and Riley did it like bunnies on more than one occasion just as she did with Spike and while the morning after with Angel wasn't fabulous (neither were her "mornings after" with Parker OR Spike), the sex was no doubt incredible with him as well.

Saying "that sex" makes is specific only to the kind of sex she misses, not a specific person. We know Joss is allowed to use the names of Angel, Spike - really anyone. I doubt he would be vague - EXCEPT to draw just such a discussion over one silly and vastly unimportant line. I mean, she misses sex like she misses churros for heaven's sake! LOL! Sex is referred to as an appetite just like food - in fact, she was more specific about the kind of food she missed than choice of sexual partners.

I was much more moved by her "I miss my mom"....*cries*.

And yeah, I had problems 'hearing' Buffy's voice saying "great Muppety Odin" too - it struck me as very Xander-like instead.

[ edited by love4ba on 2007-03-16 14:32 ]
But Love4BA she didn't say "I miss THAT churro!"
And she didn't say "I miss moms"
She misses THAT sex, she misses MY mom.
Very different.

And your statement that:
"Saying "that sex" makes is specific only to the kind of sex she misses, not a specific person"

What kind of sex, Hellmouth sex?

She couldn't have found that kind of sex in Scotland?
Simon?


In my mind she was without a doubt remembering Spike, but I agree not in a very sensitive way.


As far as Amy's boyfriend goes I thought at first it was going to be Rack, who I thought was a great character, but the weapons thing does make it seem like Warren. That would make sense for an Andrew story line as well.

I hadn't thought of Caleb at all until it was mentioned. He also doesn't really make sense from a weapons point of view. Adam just seems too long ago, and he was kind of lame in the first place.
But Love4BA she didn't say "I miss THAT churro!"

She didn't say "I miss food" - or "I miss mexican food." She mentioned ONE specific type of food she missed.

And she didn't say "I miss moms"
She misses THAT sex, she misses MY mom.
Very different.


Of course not - she only HAS one mom to miss. She can miss many types of food but she mentions only one by name.

But she HAS had more than one sexual partner - and more than one that gave her great pleasure and that she shared HOURS of intense sex with. So she can miss "that sex" and there is no reason to assume she is referring to "that person". Because she doesn't say "that person" like she says "churros" or "my mom". Each time she tells us what she misses - her mom, churros and sex. That's ALL it tells us.

And your statement that:
"Saying "that sex" makes is specific only to the kind of sex she misses, not a specific person"

What kind of sex, Hellmouth sex?


How about passionate, intense sex? The kind she had with Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike? THAT sex. Hell, she doesn't even specify what kind of sex. Just "that sex".

She couldn't have found that kind of sex in Scotland?


I've no doubt she could. But she clearly hasn't. After using Spike solely for sex, I doubt she'd be interested in yet another sex for the sake of sex relationship again. She has grown past that but missing sex is still quite normal for someone of her age. It's an appetite, as I said - a craving. No more or less meaningful than craving a churro when you don't have access to a churro.

In my mind she was without a doubt remembering Spike, but I agree not in a very sensitive way.

I don't actually mind if she WAS referring to the sex she had with Spike. I'd find that kind of telling, actually. But the sex she had with Spike was not all "great" - remember the dumpster sex? The balcony sex? She had great guilt and disgust at herself over this purely sexual relationship with a vampire she hated - so the entire experience must be taken into account. So why would I assume she is thinking of her sexual past with Spike when I saw what it cost her, what she felt about it, how it was "killing her". Not great memories in my estimation.

But Buffy is a very sexual person. As I said, she had a LOT of sex with Parker in one night, she was VERY active sexually with Riley as well. And if she had said, "I miss sex with HIM" - or - "I miss sex with THAT PERSON" - well, then I think we might assume she is referring to a specific PERSON. But saying "that sex" is very clearly stating a specific type of SEX, not person. Like a specific kind of food - I miss CHURROS - not the vague "I miss mexican food".

[ edited by love4ba on 2007-03-16 15:40 ]
I want to weigh in on this discussion from the comic:
Buffy is clearly living in an isolated area of Scotland, if she encourages Gigantor Dawny to run the Moors. So there are only slayers and Xander around (and I think we all agree that the brother/sister relationship has been too long established to be easily set aside?). So getting laid in Scotland would be problematic at the moment (where do you think Dawny managed to 'get some'?). But I still think Buffy was longing for a new relationship, when I was her age (and between boyfriends) I was NEVER mooning over the past relationships, I was always hoping for someone shiny and new.

I do agree about the 'Muppety Oden' phrase, except that she has been so surrounded by younger women that I could easily see them developing their own silly curses and catch phrases. It does sound so specific and off-beat that I'm wondering if it will even be explained in a future issue.

I am very curious about Amy's 'mate' and was kind of hoping it was Ethan Raynes, but that would be too much to hope (that my favorite nasties would hook up). I can't believe how over joyed I was to see her!
"I mean, she misses sex like she misses churros for heaven's sake! LOL!"

That passage starts with Buffy commenting on how things between her and Dawn have been bad since that day they changed the world. She then poignantly states she misses her mom, something else, then the churros, then sex, then 'that' sex. She's not expressing lust here, she's mourning what she's lost and reflecting on where she is. Remember she ends this part by reminding herself that she's a big girl now.

Now I suppose it's your perogative to read that passage as Buffy missing a particular sex act with Parker,(do Scots not do certain sex acts?) but doesn't it make sense to try and read this as a reflection back to what we saw in Chosen? A reminder to fans that everything changed that day, that Buffy grew up?

And as for your reading that sex with Spike was not that great...I actually agree with you and Rogue that Buffy wouldn't be missing that sex. Way to much baggage wrapped up in that lust. But remember, when she's with Angel in the graveyard she tells him that Spike is in her heart, and all the qualifers she uses speak to Buffy contemplating a new beginning with Spike. She returns to sleep in his arms and does so quite openly for the first time.(Remember she's in a house full of people) There's no reason why that fade to black wasn't Buffy and Spike having guilt free grown up sex. And that would be something Buffy would miss.
(do Scots not do certain sex acts?)

Nope, absolutely anything the sheep is willing to do we'll do, we're very broadminded.

(the question makes it sound like we have an annual meeting to decide:

Angus: So, Wullie, are we still no dain nummer 34 fre yon Karma Sutra, like ?

Wullie: Och, Angus, keep up mon, wur aw dain 34 like bluddy rabbits, it's 56 wur discussin. Just disnae seem fair on the whale, dya ken ?

;-)
Lol Saje:) I'm trying to wrap my imagination around which sex act would be so, well 'so!' that Buffy would be pining over that particular one. And if it's just the act then why not grab a brawny scot and have at it.

Actually, I'm back to hoping she means Clem. Remember the funky thing he did with his head in front of the sits? Now that's something no scot could do. I could see her pining after 'that':)
What's with the preoccupation with Buffy and sex? There was so much more going on in that book.

-I mean “she destroyed her hometown for god’s sake.” Yet people / demons were still there?
-Floaty feet.
-Subject 2.
- You know they are going to call Riley in, or at least get his take on the ‘terrorist cells’
- What’s with Amy’s grudge anyway? Why does she have such a hate on for Buffy et all?

As far as money is concerned, Giles was still employed by the council, and really the only one left, it would be natural he would take over ‘the business.’ Remember in season five when the council tested Buffy and were going to deport Giles to get her to comply? Buffy asked if they could really do that and Quinton boasted/threatened that she had no idea of the resources the council had. Since the Demon/Slayer landscape has changed it is no great leap that the core found a new more modern paradigm to continue the fight.
Shahua I totally agree, there is a LOT to discuss:
I always felt that the Watcher's Council had a lot of money socked away, they have existed forever and there are a lot of sorcerers connected, so I would think they would have billions well invested. Since most of them died I would think it wouldn't be that hard for Giles to have ended up controlling the whole shebang.

I always thought that Amy resented the fact that she lost 3 years of her life living as a rat in a cage. Obviously it was her own stupid fault, but she was always the type to blame others (of course growing up with that manipulative Mother she had reason to feel that way).

I am VERY curious about the floaty feet, particularly since they reminded me of Spike's feet.
Shahua that's been my point, that passage isn't about sex,(or food) it's about showing us what Buffy's lost and where she is now...a grown up.(A follow up reminder if you will that the flaming hands symbolized something big had happened) And it's worth talking about because if Chosen's spell signified that the slayer was free now to love as deeply as she wanted to, it's interesting that here we have Dawn whose huge status after running free with her emotions have them both rather forlornly distant from each other and lonely for what they're missing.

Embers, I thought it was interesting that we have Buffy saying that the boys came looking for a fight just as we see the long black coat and boots that seem so trademark Spike.
Maybe Amy's boyfriend is Clem.

(Yeah, I know he was leaving town but he could'a gotten stuck.)
Just got mine today so I'm late to the party! I absolutely loved it! The floating feet and duster looked like Spike's but that's too much to wish for! I also agree with those who think the money comes from the council. Giles seemed to be the only one left alive and I'm sure there would have been provisions for the "next in line" to become the leader. Kind of like Roslyn becoming the president in BSG.

I loved big Dawn! I don't think that's going to be long term, just another funny thing that happened to Dawn that won't last once Willow can fix it!

Xander saying "Five by Five" threw me off because that's always been a term I've associated with Faith.

And I loved the whole Immortal thing and that they tied it in to AtS.
Nevermind, answered my own question.

[ edited by Odysseus on 2007-03-16 23:29 ]
Love4BA, your last post made me laugh.

And I would bet anything that the floating "Spike" feet are Andrew.
Thanks for the heads up to find this thread. So many things to try to figure out.
First and foremost, I lOVE the Buffy and Xander interaction. It was great to see some scooby bonding. Willow and Giles mentions were also pretty nice. Dawn as a giant is pretty amusing. Poor Dawn, maybe THIS time when she screams for everyone to "get out", they might listen. LOL
That last bit with Amy was pretty cool, I have no idea who she was keeping alive but can't wait to find out. I hope it isn't Warren. He is one of my least favorite characters.
Buffy missing her mom is heartbreaking. Buffy still seems somber a little and is giving off an "alone" vibe. Maybe when all the scoobies regroup under the same tent, that will ease up a little.

The Muppety odin sex comment. That one really threw me for a loop. My first thought was of Angel because he was a muppet in the series. Not sure why else she might phrase it that way. Her next thought about her first time confirmed the Angel vibe for me. That one is definately him, no questions asked.
What I find puzzling is...are we supposed to conclude that Buffy knew or SAW Angel the great muppet/Puppet? Why use the word Muppet? The use of the word Odin is also interesting. Anyone who hasn't looked into who he was should. It's pretty interesting.
More than anything, I love having these things to wonder about again. Thinking about Buffy in particular is pretty freaking exciting. Can't wait til the next one. Good times ahead. :)
The Muppety odin sex comment. That one really threw me for a loop.


Joss' patented pop culture reference which usually means nothing but sounds really good. And who doesn't miss sex if they haven't had in a while? Like most people I think she misses the act rather than the person who is umm acting.
LOL Simon. You could very well be right. A life without sex can leave one wishing. You have to admit though, the Angel/Muppet thing does make you go hmm. Too bad WTP isn't around to really stir things up. I like the cryptic messages, it gives us something to obsess over.
Reading through these comments is the best entertainment I've had all day (no Buffy comics in Hilo). The funniest thing to me is the convoluted lengths some people will go to to deny that Buffy could possibily be thinking of Spike. *Parker*??. And that she somehow knew about the Angel puppet because she used the word "muppety". I swear I hear Joss laughing in the background.

And the exchange about sex with sheep in Scotland .... I nearly choked on my coffee :)
Does anyone know of anywhere you can order online? (the comics, not puppets or sheep).

Edited to say: Never mind, I found it :) may take a while but I'll get them eventually.

[ edited by Shey on 2007-03-17 11:54 ]
Reading through these comments is the best entertainment I've had all day (no Buffy comics in Hilo). The funniest thing to me is the convoluted lengths some people will go to to deny that Buffy could possibily be thinking of Spike. *Parker*??. And that she somehow knew about the Angel puppet because she used the word "muppety". I swear I hear Joss laughing in the background.


I doubt you ever needed to go to convoluted lengths to deny that Buffy must be thinking about Spike.I think if it was about a specific person,whether Spike,Angel,Riley or Mr.Poopy Head aka Parker,it would be much clearer.As fans,sometimes we read more into every little thing based on our wants and desires of what we want to see happen but a lot of times a tree is just a tree.It happened on the shows and it's not surprising that it would happen with the comics too.I think what Simon says is pretty on the button.

Joss' patented pop culture reference which usually means nothing but sounds really good. And who doesn't miss sex if they haven't had in a while? Like most people I think she misses the act rather than the person who is umm acting..


I don't think the sex comment is any bigger or more complicated then that.I thought Joss used the Muppety Odin line just because it sounded funny too.lol
Okay, I'll bite. She's just missing sex. A lot. Just sex. Raw sex and not sex with anyone in particular. And mexican food. Then why the heck can't she have any?

And Cheryl, if Buffy did have sex with Puppet Angel, was that before or after his date with Nina? :)
Ramses2, why can't she get any when she is on an isolated moor in Scotland (so isolated that giant Dawn can go out for a run without anyone seeing her) with only 50 slayers for company? Okay Xander is there too, but I don't think she is quite ready to hit on him (maybe she will soon). And I don't see any reason to sneer at her for wanting 'raw sex', she is a healthy normal young woman. When I was her age I was often longing for sex and romance without any thought of mooning over the problematic boyfriends of my past, I was always longing for somebody new.

And where exactly do you think she would get Mexican food on some isolated moor in Scotland?!
Embers, firstly, I'm not sneering at Buffy. I'm actually not sneering at anyone. I just don't see how we've jumped to the conclusion that Buffy is so isolated in Scotland that she's had no chance for sex. She has a helicopter that one could imagine she could use from time to time. And Dawn certainly found someone to have sex with, hence her problem. And hey, even the standin Buffy is having a very high profile fling with the Immortal. Sorry, this seems more like a self imposed break from sex...say coming from her maybe I dunno...grieving? Is that really such a stretch knowing what we know she experienced in Chosen?

And do we really think that blurb with Buffy sitting missing her mom and everything else she's lost in Sunnydale and ending with her stating she's a big girl now is all about 'raw sex'? We don't see any connection to a sexual relationship that saw her come to terms with being a grow up? And that maybe that bit was actually about her being grown up?

As for where she could get mexican food? Sheesh, sooo thinking Buffy is thinking of Spike is a huge stretch but using mexican food as proof that she's in the only part of the world that multiculturalism(or sex) hasn't hit isn't?
Joss' patented pop culture reference which usually means nothing but sounds really good. And who doesn't miss sex if they haven't had in a while? Like most people I think she misses the act rather than the person who is umm acting.


I think you are right Simon. Personally I think it's the act she's missing, not a particular person. And it's very much like Joss to go with a pop culture reference or just having a character make a statement without it having to mean something deeper.
Somewhere way up thread, Saje, you were worried about those broken stained glass windows! I'd say you don't need to be. The colours were very bold and even across the glass suggesting fairly modern work. (No really, in really old - say pre 1400 at a guess - stained glass you can see the colour running to the bottom of each piece of glass.) Plus all that boarding up at the top would suggest that place was used to broken glass work! What, I think too hard about these things? Surely not?

Does anyone else read the line, "Everybody calls me 'ma'am' these days" as a deliberate, if subtle, presentation of Buffy as some kind of Queen-like figure?

Finally, re favourite lines, I think the opening line should make the list for top right hand corner status: "The thing about changing the world ... once you do it, the world's all different."

[ edited by ArielWillow on 2007-03-17 19:00 ]
I dunno, Georges got the spirals wrong on the staircase, he could've made the glass look more modern than it was too. I'm still not happy ;-).

I think the "ma'am" thing just denotes her new status as top banana (and also makes her feel a bit old maybe). I do like that opening line though.

I'm also with the 'just a funny phrase' school re: the sex stuff. Big fierce Odin in muppet form is a pretty funny image and if, say, Xander had said 'and bowling, Great Muppety Odin, I miss that bowling' I don't think anyone would be pondering exactly which time he went bowling he was missing. But because it's Buffy and because there's Angel/Spike lurking in the background, it apparently has to have a specific meaning. Sometimes it's just a cigar people ;).
Sometimes it's just a cigar people ;).

Yes, but .... the question remains, *whose* cigar?? :)

[ edited by Simon on 2007-03-19 12:43 ]
Arrrg .... I finally managed a "quote", but the entire text of my post ended up in the "quote box". Well, it's progress.
Shey...Not sure how to respond to your post. Are you upset that *I* didn't immediately think of Spike with Buffy's words about missing great muppety odin sex? I guess I don't get it. I don't connect great with season 6 Buffy and Spike sex, sorry.
Don't mind for a second that you do though. To each their own.

I wish I understood how it's o.k. for the conclusion to be made that Buffy is thinking of Spike by some fans but isn't o.k. for others to think of someone else. Especially given the words used. Great, Odin and Muppety brought Angel to my mind. Probably isn't but would fit. Not a declaration of knowing the truth, just getting in on the discussion at hand.

Ramses....I think we'll have to wait and see what Joss is saying about Buffy and her sex drive and with whom if anyone she is thinking about. Like I said before, I like having this to think about again. Obsessing over Buffy is my all time favorite thing to do.

Saje...You have to admit, trying to figure out what Joss is saying to us IS half the fun. Especially since we don't have the eye candy of seeing the actors in action.

This thing is doing some kind of wonky quote thing.??

[ edited by cheryl on 2007-03-19 01:02 ]
Cheryl if Joss isn't saying something positive about Buffy(as in she's all grown up and guilt free)then I'll, I'll, I'll do something juvenile. Seriously I think we 've seen high school Buffy, college Buffy, young adult Buffy and now we're seeing Grown up Buffy. While I get that some people will faint if Buffy is seen missing Spike and sex with Spike, the point is she had sex, lots and lots of guilt sex with Spike so it's not a huge stretch to think that Joss might use sex with Spike to show that she's grown up and not having to be guilty about the whole thing anymore. Could it be about someone else? I guess so, but it's a whole lot of stretching to make a point then, a lot of stretching that I don't think Joss feels he needs to do. Remember, it was fans that decided Buffy didn't mean what she said in Chosen, and it was some fans that decided Buffy had bad sex with Spike. I doubt you'd find any writer to agree with these fan suppositions. Having Buffy miss Spike the person/vamp/thing that she had enflamed hands with, that she said she loved? I'm just not seeing the stretch here. The story set up that Buffy might be 'baked'(grown up) and might actually view her relationship with Spike as something positive. Is it a stretch that she might miss him? I see nothing given from Chosen on that would indicate that.
Ramses...You are misunderstanding me in a big old way. My thoughts about the clip in question have nothing to do with Spike. You are imposing Spike into what my initial reaction was to reading "Great Muppety Odin Sex". I'm not trying to build a case against Spike he just didn't *pop* right into my head when I read that. Angel did.
We could argue back and forth all day about season 6 Buffy and Spike sex and what that represented, or didn't, but it wouldn't change the facts that we will never agree. You saw something beautiful and mature and I didn't.
FTR, I see NOTHING wrong with Buffy missing the Spike of season 7, I would be surprised if she didn't. They were the best of friends and a great support for one another but lovers, having "great muppety odin sex" they were not. The sex between them came at a much unhealthier and abusive time. I can't see Buffy looking back to that time with any kind of longing. It was a pretty crappy year all the way around for her. Could I be wrong? Well yeah, I don't have a crystal ball, this is all just one big heap of speculation until Joss makes it clear. If he ever makes it clear.
Can we agree to disagree?
Well of course we can disagree Cheryl, I saw spuffy as just another relationship used to show Buffy's progression to maturity. It makes sense to me that if the next step is grown up Buffy, that she would miss the sex that almost destroyed her/made her come to terms with who she was....if you see her missing muppet sex we've never seen, or high school sex that started the sex =guilt, or one night stand Parker sex than more power to you. I'm just guessing that Joss wants to move forward so that Buffy and spuffy will be seen in a whole different light. After all, when you think Buffy and sex you don't think muppets....you think Spike.
Seems like someone (Shey ? ;) has missed off a /div (which closes quotes). Strange, I could add one in Preview but it disappeared when posted.

Saje...You have to admit, trying to figure out what Joss is saying to us IS half the fun.

Oh, absolutely cheryl, we all do it and to be honest I suspect with the comics it'll happen even more since there'll be less dialogue to go on and more time between doses (and that's totally the right word ;). It just sounds like a throwaway line to me, the rhythm and imagery make it funny, it could even be something Joss his own self says in real life (which would also explain why it sounds more like a Xander comment to some).

Remember, it was fans that decided Buffy didn't mean what she said in Chosen ...

Well, that's true Ramses 2 it is just an interpretation but it makes sense for Buffy to tell Spike in that situation what he wants to hear (and to me that's how SMG plays it, as if it's a thought that's occurred to her now, as a reward for a friend she's very fond of or even loves but is not in love with, when she knows he's about to die to save the world). And it also makes sense for him to 'know' she was lying (hence "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it" - which, significantly IMO, she neither protests nor denies). Even as a monster Spike never kidded himself except over Buffy. Now, in extremis, he sees her with the same clear eyed insight he's traditionally applied to everything else. That's his 'baked' end-point.

(and note, even though I prefer Spike to Angel as a character, I have no preference for either 'ship - to be honest don't much understand the whole 'shipping thing full stop. I found them both compelling viewing and great opportunities for character insights and development so i've no axe to grind in that respect)
I'm with the folks who think it was just way too short. Comic book = not enough content, especially for $3.00. I miss these guys and got this comic, but I really have to think seriously about my money situation.

Oh, there is another discussion going on? Yeah, "great muppity Odin" did not sound like Buffy to me either but it would make a good front page quote. ;-)
Oh yeah, definitely too short. Ideally we'd have a graphic novel a month or, better still, a '52' style issue a week but brevity comes with the sickle in comics unfortunately (Joss keeps insisting on 'breaks' for so-called 'eating and sleeping'. Pure laziness if you ask me).

If it helps newcj I think some libraries keep comics (either a fairly recent link from here or a link from a link from here has a brief comment by a librarian talking about how many sign-outs they had in the first day - I think it's a system whereby you sign it 'out' but stay in the library to read it). Failing that, without meaning to incite unlawful behaviour, you could, ahem, 'flick through it' in the shop but just 'flick' very slowly and thoroughly ;).

The benefit of it being so short though is you can read the whole thing in an 'enjoyment pass' just letting it flow over you and then go back and re-read it for a 'meaning pass' and then pore over your favourite art from the issue and still only have used up about 15-20 minutes. Bonus ;).
Thanks Saje. Unfortunately my town's library does not have any Whedon stuff at all and no graphic novels that I have seen, much less comic books. I will do some research for other libraries in the area, though when I have looked for previously recommended graphic novels I have come up pretty dry.

As far as standing in a shop reading the comic, they are tiny stores with almost no one in them except me, my son and the clerks. How pitiful do I want to make my middle-aged self? Should I train my son to create a diversion or stand there once a month reading Buffy comics and never buying anything. No. I'm pretty pitiful sometimes but I draw the line somewhere before those options.

Ok...I admit it...I came close to trying to read one of the Serenity comics and one of the Spike comics in the store a couple times while my son was shopping for Yugio cards way back when. They were just sitting there, right in front of me...but I couldn't bring myself to do it. (sigh)
Saje I 'shipped' every single relationship Buffy had, each one helped tell her story, and each one did that wonderfully. I do think that spuffy was the relationship used to help explore Buffy's move into adulthood and I have to believe that Buffy by Chosen's end knew her feelings more than Spike. In an episode full of iconic moments I have a hard time believing that enflamed hands meant Buffy had come to realize she had a good friend in Spike. The slayer line had just been transformed, earlier in the season Spike tells Wood that slayers can't love fully, Angel reiterates that in the graveyard scene. So if the line is transformed I have to imagine that gone was the guilt over sex and gone was the limit on emotional connections. Sure Buffy might have been trying to make Spike feel better, sure Spike has always known Buffy better than herself. But those enflamed hands make me think we were to see that this now was a slayer that Spike knew nothing about, Buffy had transformed. She was grown up. So it makes sense to me that the comic would have big girl Buffy missing the friend/lover she had sex with a lot. Someone whom she appeared intent on exploring a new relationship with if you go by the conversation she had with Angel. Of course she could be missing sex in general, but again, even excluding the 'that' qualifer, the muppety Odin description sure seems like she's remembering sex with someone in particular. I'm not saying this makes the comic 'shippy', I think it's just a really great way to show that a. Buffy's grown up, b. no more guilt over sex, c. just as we are reminded that the slayer line is changed with all the new slayers calling her ma'm, we are reminded that emotionally Buffy is a bit more baked.
Short? Short??

I think we're lucky to have this. Great muppity Oden, (no hidden meaning) Remember the guy was trying to get a superhero movie off the ground. He's also trying to do Goners at Universal, he writes X-men, making deals to take over Runaways, as well as the odd cameo, and odd TV directing gig, as well as other un-named projects, and a family, AND he still cranks out something for the fans! Come on.

Whether it's printed or not I believe the guy constantly lives in these universes (universi?). I’m sure that he’s constantly thinking, ‘wouldn’t it be cool if Buffy did this,’ or, ‘If Mal said…’ It’s just now it went from thought to ‘hey that’s a good idea, I should totally do that.’ With comics writing, movie writing, and looking for the next cool thing to do, we should be thankful that he returned to the Buffyverse. I’m sure he had plenty of other things to do. Now say, ‘thank you Mr. Whedon,’ and set up a pull list at your favorite comics store and await the next issue.
Of course I am happy that Joss is doing this comic. I realize that he tried to do movies etc. and comics is what he could do to tell these stories. I am glad he persisted and glad he went for it. I want to read them all, preferably right now. ;-)

At the same time, as someone said, if this goes to 30 issues that is $90 not counting taxes. I can buy my son a season and a half of sports at the Boys and Girls Club, or 9 months of Netflix at the unlimited one disc at a time rate. That is a lot of ball games or movies. Unfortunately not Whedon movies.

ramses2 I am right there with you on the relationships being an integral part of the story being told and enjoying each one for what it was and the story it was telling. I can also see your point about the Spike and Buffy's exchange at the end of Chosen. Personally I have no doubt that she loved him at that moment, but I go back and forth on whether she was *in* love with him.

The "that sex" phrasing just seemed odd to me, especially paired with the muppity Odin comment. The only thing that seemed to make sense to me is it being a reflection of what her life has become. I'm assuming later issues will tell the tale.

Saje Buffy not arguing with Spike when he said she did not really love him never bothered me. Besides the immenently threatening death that made it hardly the time to have a debate about the nature of love, I just thought that there was an acceptance between them that they cared about each other and that that was going to have to be enough under the circumstances.
I also think Spike's initial emotional outpouring to Angel when he comes back a ghost seems to contradict the argument that Spike knew she loved him only as a friend. The ILY, and Spike's reply seemed more cliffhanger than resolution to me.
Great muppity Oden, (no hidden meaning)...

I think there's a hidden meaning here ... ;-)

Tickling my mind is the idea that at some point in the show Xander or someone else said something about 'that' something in exactly this context when talking about something general, just can't quite remember. I still just think it's nothing but a quip but man, do I hope i'm wrong. The extra density if it turns out to be foreshadowing would be just spiffy.

I just thought that there was an acceptance between them that they cared about each other and that that was going to have to be enough under the circumstances.

Oh, they absolutely cared about each other, not debating that in any way, shape or form. She just wasn't in love with him IMO. When I watch it I see a very subtle performance by SMG where she seems, to me, to be deliberately playing slightly desperate insincerity (desperate because she wants him to believe her in his last moments). When Spike says "No, you don't but thanks for saying it" she doesn't even reflexively shake her head in denial in fact she seems to have the tiniest smile of acceptance, almost pride, as if to say "Ah, can't fool you anymore, you really are a 'complete man' now". Sure there's no time for debating abstract philosophy but if you feel that passionately about someone it takes no time just to say "I do, I swear it" (time yourself if you want ;).

And from a 'shippy perspective how much would it have set everyone's pants ablaze to have her protest and him reach over and gently, tenderly place a finger on her lips to still them as they gazed into each other's eyes and he slowly shook his head ? Course, maybe Joss just didn't think of that ;).

The flaming hands ? Beautiful image, beautiful gesture. She gives him her pain as a friend that loves him, maybe, again to make his last moments easier, to convince him more. But pain is not that much in the grand scheme of things, not for a Slayer.

I do agree though Ramses 2 that Spike in Angel S5 is not the same 'complete' Spike we see in 'Chosen', especially in TGiQ. Much as I thought he was great in that season I can't deny the character took a step back so that he could take a step forward when he needed to. Other than that I think we may have to agree to disagree, seems we have a "Deckard is a replicant" style difference in interpretation ;).
...the point is she had sex, lots and lots of guilt sex with Spike so it's not a huge stretch to think that Joss might use sex with Spike to show that she's grown up and not having to be guilty about the whole thing anymore.

They had lots and lots of sex, yes, but it was hardly "guilt free" for Buffy. She had massive guilt (and a whole lot of other negative associations) because of her sexual dalliance with Spike in season 6. But I do agree that she is a big girl now and is able to think about sex without guilt and even miss it - WITHOUT needing it to be specific to a person. I suspect the reason she ISN'T having sex now is because, as an adult, she wouldn't necessarily want to be sexually indiscriminate. She's done the "20-something" sex with Spike. So she misses sex but she is cookie dough and not ready for a relationship. Simple.

Well, that's true Ramses 2 it is just an interpretation but it makes sense for Buffy to tell Spike in that situation what he wants to hear (and to me that's how SMG plays it, as if it's a thought that's occurred to her now, as a reward for a friend she's very fond of or even loves but is not in love with, when she knows he's about to die to save the world). And it also makes sense for him to 'know' she was lying (hence "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it" - which, significantly IMO, she neither protests nor denies). Even as a monster Spike never kidded himself except over Buffy. Now, in extremis, he sees her with the same clear eyed insight he's traditionally applied to everything else. That's his 'baked' end-point.

Wonderfully stated and I couldn't agree more. This is EXACTLY what I saw in "Chosen". And though I wasn't the biggest fan of Spike by the end of season 7, I found this to be a moment of true growth for him - accepting what was and what wasn't and doing what he felt he had to do anyway.

When I watch it I see a very subtle performance by SMG where she seems, to me, to be deliberately playing slightly desperate insincerity (desperate because she wants him to believe her in his last moments). When Spike says "No, you don't but thanks for saying it" she doesn't even reflexively shake her head in denial in fact she seems to have the tiniest smile of acceptance, almost pride, as if to say "Ah, can't fool you anymore, you really are a 'complete man' now". Sure there's no time for debating abstract philosophy but if you feel that passionately about someone it takes no time just to say "I do, I swear it" (time yourself if you want ;).


Yup - I'll even go a step further and say that I can see the point where Buffy realizes that Spike is going to die and makes up her mind to tell him the one thing he's wanted to hear for the past 2.5 years. And while I do believe she came to love him, she was not in love and that was the acceptance that Spike came to. It's why she was able to look to a happy, hopeful future with a smile on her face in the end. It doesn't take away from Spike's sacrifice. But if she had just discovered she was IN love then I don't see her smiling and hopeful for her future, nor would I think Joss would consider that a happy ending. It would be Buffy falling in love again and having it end tragically - again. Been there, done that. This was different.

The flaming hands ? Beautiful image, beautiful gesture. She gives him her pain as a friend that loves him, maybe, again to make his last moments easier, to convince him more. But pain is not that much in the grand scheme of things, not for a Slayer.


Again, I agree. Their hands catch fire because Spike is literally burning up from the inside out. And you can see that there is pain for Buffy but she fights through it to give him this moment - of trust and love.

[ edited by love4ba on 2007-03-20 06:12 ]
Seeing as this is "season 8", just want to point out that one of the main themes of season 7 .... & I can't imagine anyone taking issue with this .... is the healing of Buffy and Spike's relationship, once she found out that he had a soul.
The only question left to our imagination, intentionally according to Joss's Chosen comentary, is whether or not they had sex, that last night. But the facts that are just *there*, beyond question, are that Buffy was actively pursuing that healing, that she in her own words "belived in" Spike, and how she proved that, by giving the Initiative guys the go ahead to remove his chip. And her verbal confirmation ("Were you there with me?"..."I was.") of what was so obvious in Touched, that is, just how far that healing/reconnection had progressed. That look they were exchanging, lying in each other's arms, was not by any stretch of the imagination a "just friends' look.
So I'm still gonna go with, if she was thinking of sex with *anyone* specific, it had to have been Spike.
I agree with Shey, season 7 was about healing, and most importantly, the healing of Buffy and the Slayerline. Part of season 7's story was to show that Buffy was so emotionally disconnected that she no longer knew what she felt. We also get a reminder a few times that slayers can't quite love as deeply as they should. So in that penultimate moment(Joss called it such), I have to believe that what we're watching is something far more than Spike and Buffy being in pain and Buffy giving him a pity ILY.

Remember, Joss carefully packed Chosen with iconic imagery. Since enflamed enclapsed hands are seen in many cultures as representing spiritual wholeness and unity, is it really a huge jump to think that in that moment, that penultimate moment when Buffy's been transformed by the spell and Spike feels his soul that Buffy's ILY really meant that she was emotionally healed and able to love? That the hands are meant to be seen as Buffy being spiritual whole and grown up?

I guess I just don't see why Joss would waste valuable storytime depicting pain, especially in the midst of showing Spike in otherwise heroic bravada. Joss has said that in that moment the world falls away for both of them and they are only aware of the other. For me this really underlines that the moment was to signal something major, something big. He also said that SMG didn't understand what he was trying to show.

And love4ba, Buffy's guilt over sex wasn't just in regards to Spike, it was actually a major theme since the early seasons. It was tied up in the feminist message, it was about sex and power and self acceptance. 7's dirty girl storyline was IMO, to underline that this was a slayer problem and not just something Buffy specific.

By the way, there's a great buddhist statue in the Philadelphia Art Museum that depicts enflamed hands, it's very powerful and moving.
Ramses, I don't think it WAS a pity "ILY" - as I've said many times, she did come to love him - just not the way he wanted. You are right that there are iconic images in "Chosen" but it doesn't just relate to Buffy/Spike. There is a reason that Spike saw Buffy kissing Angel and it is in part, why he recognizes that the love she is offering him as he's dying is not the love he's seeking.

Buffy wanted to bask in Angel's arms after kissing him passionately - but she wanted to rest and find comfort in Spike's arms. One is romantic/sexual in nature (B/A), the other is two people who have been through hell together and are now reaching that place of intimacy of trust. Something Joss himself said was the whole point of their season 7 storyline. Forgiveness, trust, intimacy.

Surely you also recall that Joss' own words in the "Chosen" commentary talks about the icon imagery of Buffy and Angel once again meeting in a graveyard and once again talking about a potential future - with each other. That it was important to give hope to THAT relationship for the future.

IMO, it doesn't take anything away from what Buffy and Spike gave each other or were to each other in season 7. After all, had Buffy kissed Xander the way she did Angel I think most people would be shocked. Because you surely don't kiss a friend that way either. And remember, she also said to Spike "doesn't it have to mean something?" She had, as Joss ALSO said, the "big emotion" for BOTH of them. And it was love for both of them - just a different kind.

And I'm sorry but I didn't see Buffy having any guilt in her sexual relationship with Riley. She had guilt over the AFTERMATH of her night with Angel, that is absolutely true.

As to the flaming hands, well if Spike hadn't been burning up from within, maybe I could see the flaming hands as being the powerful, mythic thing you saw. It was a beautiful image to be sure, but it was also understandable given that Spike literally WAS burning up from the inside out. And yes, I saw pain on Buffy's face but she fought through that to give him this moment in his time of death.

And I'm sorry, if that moment was to signal that Buffy had finally fallen in love again and just then realized it - how is it possible that she's happy and smiling and hopeful for her future without that person she has just come to realize is her love? And how painful and tragic would it be that he ALSO denied that very love? Sorry, I just don't see it. And I don't think that means I'm missing Joss' message. I believe I got it just fine. In fact, the only way for me to reconcile Buffy kissing Angel, basking in his arms and Joss' own words about hope for the future of B/A and a happy ending, is the way I've explained it.

I'm sure we can all agree by this point to agree to disagree without implying that one "got" the obvious message and the other didn't.
The kiss wasn't iconic, I think you may be confusing the definition. The scene in the graveyard was, because it called to mind the importance of bangel to Buffy's story. But the kiss was not iconic, nor according to Buffy, passionate. (It was without tongue:)) Remember, Joss speaks of needing to get Buffy from that graveyard with Angel to Spike's arms without looking slutty. Well it's fairly easy if you see that scene as iconic(and Joss is discussing this not the kiss as such), a bit of a prod to remember that ships serve to mark where Buffy is on her path to being a grown up. She discusses the future with Angel, she discusses how she's not able to know her mind yet....Angel assumes it's because she's the slayer...we get the cookie dough, and Buffy discussing her relationship or whatever it is with Spike in present/future terms. And yes, at that moment in the graveyard there is hope for the future with Angel as well because Buffy is still being shown as emotionally stunted...the girl who calls herself cookie dough is not a girl who's reaffirming her love for anyone.

And sorry, Buffy did carry dirty girl baggage in her relationship with Riley. She was afraid her sexuality could hurt him, she would leave their bed to hunt...the implication of her not being satisfied, and Spike is shown as someone who might understand her 'darkness' in ways Riley couldn't. The mere fact that we were shown Buffy and Faith responding to a primal need as something dark speaks volumes to where Joss was going with the story. I think it's slightly disconcerting that B/A would be seen as 'the' sexual relationship...this is the relationship that first introduced a heaping level of sexual guilt onto the slayer. I think it's not for nothing that Angel stands by as Buffy slays Caleb the monster who has been employing sexual guilt to paralyze Buffy and the sits as he is intent on their destruction.

As for the 'does it have to mean anything' question, I think it becomes clear in Chosen as she transforms that the answer to that is a resounding yes. And it's a yes because just as bangel was a terrific story that helped tell Buffy's story as a young girl, spuffy told the end part where she becomes an adult. That enflamed hand scene is just as iconic as the graveyard. The relationships told her story, the iconic moments then must speak to that story. Buffy's penultimate scene cannot be about pain and loving but not really loving....because that's the story that needed to be changed. That iconic moment must speak to grown up, emotionally healthy Buffy.

And bringing this back to the comic, we actually do get confirmation that Buffy's grown up. We do get confirmation that things have changed.

As for Buffy being able to smile and be hopeful? I'll say it again, the smile was joyful not happy. Buffy had just witnessed something remarkable and triumphant. It was a glorious moment in Spike's life, and I would think as a fellow champion she would have been proud and joyful for him. As for being sad about his death? It sure sounds like Joss has covered that in the first comic.
Well I'm not gonna rehash the ship issue - you have your view of what you saw, I have mine. I will say that a friend of mine emailed Georges (the guy who worked on the comic) and even HE confirmed that the "that sex" line was a general statement meant to show that Buffy - as a grownup now - does indeed just miss sex as it's been a while for her. No specific person in mind. Not that I needed confirmation of that as I find the whole conversation rather silly. It was one line and not even the most important one, imo.

I'm sure it won't stop people from believing what they want to. :)
Well that gave me a good giggle Love4ba:) You are so certain that Buffy could not possibly mean Spike that 'your friend' had to email the artist. Strangely enough when I'm certain of something? I don't feel the need to chase down artists or writers and insist they tell me I'm right. Or where the plotline is going. Just curious, is this the same friend who emailed PAD before the first Spike comic came out to make sure that Spike wasn't going to be heroic?
*sigh* God, does everything always have to turn into an accusation of an anti Spike movement? Seriously, this *Buffy* comic is great in everyway, we should all be sitting back grinning from ear to ear. We finally have more Buffy. FINALLY!
We should just agree to disagree and enjoy the ride.
Let me just point out that the shipping stops here or accounts go buh-bye. Seriously. This will be the only warning. Not one more word in this thread.
*Blubbering & sputtering* .... I sooo wanted just one more word. :)
You can have another word, it just better not involve shipping :)
zeitgeist, I saw your "stop this now" post at home this morning. Then I checked "recent comments" a while later at work and your post on this thread came up as the most recent post. My first thought was, "Wow, zeit has the power these days. He says stop posting on a thread and people stop posting EVERYWHERE!"

(Before your post, I was going to suggest that Buffy was really talking about that sex she heard the couples at Whedonesque were having, but I guess that clever ruse to ship you and Smidge would be seen through right away. Damn.)

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