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March 18 2007

ANGEL season six! IDW made it semi-official--in canon continuing comics co-written by Joss are on the way!!

No spoilers (except slight mention of a possible guest star), but also some preview art for Spike: Shadow Puppets. Let the excitement and speculation begin!

I can't decide if this is cool or not.

Just kidding, it's so awesome.
But Ryall didn't seem as definite as he might be, so I will hold my excitement for the moment.
Having official confirmation made my day :D Though from this report I still can't tell if they are just thinking of a one-off series or an ongoing series? Here's hoping hoping Joss and Ryall lay the groundworks for an ongoing series.

Also there's a whopping big Joss interview in the UK Buffy/Angel Magazine #93 (the interview was probably conducted a few months back to make recent print), here's the quote regarding the IDW canon Angel:

Joss: I am talking to Brian Lynch who wrote Spike: Asylum about doing a sort of Season Six of Angel - a canon post-Angel story. I was really impressed with Asylum. Brian really got the humour and the rhythms and told a story really well. I though, "If they can do this, why shouldn't they?" It would be on a separate plane from Buffy, but having said that we are planning on having Spike and Angel appear in the BtVS arc. As far as the separate stories goes, we will resolve how they can both be going on. It might end up a little bit too much like X-Men, who are doing different things in every comic, but hopefully we will work out more continuity than that. I'm not going to make it so that you have to read both books from both companies. I don't think it's fair to people and I don't think it's fair in a single company. I hate it when a Spider-Man arc finishes in Iron Man. I get pissed off! There will be no Buffy "Civil War"! Well, maybe.


[ edited by Dalton on 2007-03-17 23:40 ]
Hell yeah! I'm pleased about the Buffy series, but Buffy came to an end. Angel didn't- it stopped in mid-action, and I've wanted more ever since. I'm so excited about this.
This is amazing! The two greatest shows are back! Can't wait!
omg, we'll find out whether certain characters survived or not !? it's been a family argument since that last episode !

*may spontaneously combust due to combination of anticipation and glee*
Wow. I was really hoping for this after Buffy season 8 and continuing canonical Firefly adventures were announced, but I can't believe they're actually doing it. Awesome!
I am insanely curious about what happened after the alley. Yay!
Fantastic news!
I think I'm gonna cry.
Fantastic! *sigh* I'm dying to know what happened in the alley too. (though I have imagined my own version(s))
This is great! I've heard some very interesting things with what would have happened to Gunn.
I really, really hope this happens.
I wonder if Lorne will be back.
I don't care to see what happened in the alley - I think it's more fun to leave it to imagination, for the most part - but I want to know how or if the story that was planned for the sixth season of the show will play out. I'm most fascinated by Illyria and what her very existance meant to Wesley. There are so many tragic and beautiful ways that story could have gone...but now that one of the characters is deceased, what does that mean? Because I still believe Fred is somewhere inside Illyria...until the PTB tell us otherwise.

An Angel comic certainly isn't the same as a TV show, but if it's canon and it's Joss, it's the next best thing. So, call it a (nearly) dream come true for me.

I think I'm gonnna cry some more.
I'm hoping Harmony comes back.

[ edited by hitnrun017 on 2007-03-18 01:40 ]
As somebody who's just started watching season five again, I say, I'd love it.
These are the best news ever!
I wonder if it will it start with the ally fight, or will we just get flashbacks to it. I don't think they can just leave it to the imagination.
So much more to find out about Illyria, and just because Wesley is dead doesn't mean he has to stay that way, it is the Buffyverse and I bet a deamon god like Illyria can do what Willow did.
Anyway, I hope Peter David will also be involved, he wrote some great stuff ( I love the Illyria Spotlight). Maybe Joss will get some of the ME writing people for this too and BKV.
Getting ahead of myself. Thinking about it now it seems it would be dumb for IDW not to want some Joss co-written Angel season 6 canon comics, with Buffy s8 #1 selling so well.
Who knows maybe Dark Horse and IDW will merge (IDH?) and there will be a civil war.
Well,Joss did say that what happened in the alley is a story for another place and time.This might be that place and time.


Peter David is exclusive to Marvel Comics so other then his creator owned Fallen Angel at IDW,I don't think his contract allows him to work on anything else outside Marvel.Unless he gets a special permission maybe like Jeph Loeb seems to have for Buffy season 8.

Would be great to get the other former Buffyverse writers invloved here too like with season 8.
This is great news. Congratulations, Brian! Your work so far has been truly enjoyable. It's lovely to see it acknowledged and you getting more work because of it, especially work with Joss whom you've said you admire. Also extra goodness for us - more great stories for us to read. Keeping my fingers crossed that this is true. Though, as I previously mentioned, it seems like more than a coincidence that Spike: Shadow Puppets and the Drew Goddard/Xander story for Buffy 8 are both taking place in Japan.

I'm also excited that the deal is with IDW. I love the quality of their books and truly appreciate the fact that there are no ads in the middle of the story. Also, Chris Ryall = super nice guy.

It will be fun to see if any of the versions/scenarios of the alley fight that we've all imagined come true. Yippee for more canon stories.
So much more to find out about Illyria, and just because Wesley is dead doesn't mean he has to stay that way

It would be so easy to bring back Wesley as part-demon, part-zombie. I was rewatching "Hole in the World", and Wesley had that last kiss while Illyria was still an infection inside Fred. He also vowed never to leave Fred in the same scene. If he internalized any Old One germs, that would make him a candidate to become a (reluctant and bitter) Qwa'ha Xahn.
They could totally bring Wes back as his comedy robotic brother, called Des.
Angel sort of had the most perfect ending it could ever have. I'm... not sure I want it back anymore.

Hell, it was perhaps the best ending to a TV show ever.
Watch Six Feet Under, then revise that statement.
... Angel didn't- it stopped in mid-action

See, I never felt that. Although it was cut off with more to say and the ending was necessarily compressed and truncated, 'Not Fade Away' was exactly the kind of open-ended, process not result, journey not destination 'resolution' that Angel demanded IMO. It was, for me, a nigh perfect way to end the show (in fact, Angel signing away his 'happy ending' in the form of the shan-shu prophecy without even blinking is one of the stand-out moments of the show and character for me).

That said, the comics aren't the show and I feel like we're in good hands with both creators continuing the story. Sounds like things are far from finalised but at the moment it feels like a single arc of maybe 5 or 6 issues rather than the complete season we're being treated to with Buffy. Hope that changes but i'll take what we get so long as it honours the TV show and what it achieved.

And I must say, I strongly suspect the Japan thing is just a coincidence but there's no reason the two stories can't be retroactively intertwined if it suits Joss et al.

(also, my money's on Gunn dying or becoming undead - I hope he does to be honest, anything else reduces his heroism in NFA - and maybe Illyria being very badly wounded. In fact, the story could be about helping her somehow, some kind of quest. Both of them always were suckers for a 'damsel' in distress ;)
In various scattered interviews, I'd read that originally, if Season 6 were to have happened:
#1: Wesley would NOT have been killed. (*I think it was an interview w/Jeffrey Bell in Angel magazine)

#2: Wesley would have later on had to have had made some sort of choice of whether or not in Season 6 to be able to have Fred return- at the expense of Illryia-- after Wesley would have had more connection with her down the line (*interview in the Angel Casefiles paperback)

#3: That Gunn would have survived the battle at the end- but as a vampire, and would have been the 'big bad' of Season 6.

All this was I believe speculation from the writers' on 'what if'- but if that's the case, while I'm thrilled that canon-Season 6 is happening... (why didn't IDW do that in the first place????)---

What about the 'Season 6' that would have happened if Wesley wasn't killed off in the series finale? I know that in comics, death is always questionable, but it's hard to imagine "Angel" without Wesley as part of the ensemble. (My op).

Still, regardless of what comes, I'm thrilled to death that Joss Whedon will be returning to "Angel" and that things will be canon in that book. (though I wonder--- will everything else up to now be disregarded?) Hmm...
Flippin' sweet.
This *is* great news. I'm a newbie comic-book reader and knowing Joss will have a hand in AtS season 6 makes me very happy.
Alf is back. In POG form.

Seriously though, the ending of S5 was so perfect, my expectations will be dashed if S6 is anything less than completely true, moving...

Aw, who am I kidding? I can't but trust Joss with this.
IDW didn't do it in the first place because they weren't allowed.When IDW launched the Angel line two years ago,Joss was still trying to get the T.V. or DVD movies going.He didn't want iDW touching certain things or doing any firm canon stories.It's why they had to do so much tap dancing on The Curse and Old Friends and why they couldn't publically say any of the miniseries were after NFA even though The Curse,Old Friends,Asylum,Auld Lang Syne,and Shadow Puppets clearly are.

At this point,no on-screen continuation is happening so Joss is moving with their stories in comics.I would assume,he no longer needs to reserve certain things for those T.V/DVD movies so he is letting IDW go forward with him and do canon season 6.

He did say in a recent interview that if a on-screen continuation ever presented itself in the future,the comics wouldn't prevent that.He probably would just set anything on-screen after the canon comics,I would assume.
As to Wesley coming back, I'm not sure that's possible (but never say never in the Whedonverse) since he was killed by mortal means, not mystical. I think that was deliberate. Vale was a very powerful warlock, he could have killed Wesley with magic. As a mystical death, there would have been a chance of resurrection. Instead, Joss chose to have Vale kill Wesley with a huge knife. So an ordinary mortal death, not a big chance of a resurrection there.

Re the Japan location. Maybe Xander or one of the slayerettes will see Spike while they're in Japan and that's how Buffy finds out he that he's still undead and not at the bottom of the Hellmouth.

I'm excited at the prospect of learning more about Illyria. I found her character intriguing.

Gunn as a vampire. What a formidable foe. With his brain "upgrade", plus fightng skills now combined with vampire abilities, plus knowing Angel so well, and, to a certain extent, Spike think of the damage he could do. But how would he have been turned? Not like there would be a lot of time to turn someone during a battle.
True. And can we really see Gunn drinking from a vampire after being bitten while knowing what was in store for him ? Thinking not.

If that was a genuine plot idea for season 6 it would've been really interesting seeing how the writers solved that problem.

(guess there'd be some way to force him or maybe put him in some kind of magical stasis, kidnap him from the battlefield and then turn him ?)
Rock!

... So can we find out about the cyborgs?
I don't mean to be pedantic, but in my mind the end of Season 5 wasn't perfect. I think all concerned did the best they could coming up with a way to close out the show since it had been cancelled by the network. Leaving the ending ambiguous seems the best way they could have left it and now has opened the door to there being a Season 6 in this format. Whatever Brian and Joss come up with, I'm gonna be grateful and eat it up with a spoon and maybe some ice cream on the spoon ... since it's there. **WINK**

Regarding perfection, I love this quote from Sir Laurence Olivier (I get a daily inspirational quote every day at my gmail):

"Striving for perfection is the greatest stopper there is.… It's your excuse to yourself for not doing anything. Instead, strive for excellence, doing your best."
Great news! I'll be glad when we get more firm details. NFA was a great series finale, but if the story continues, I for one want to know how they survived the alley. I mean, they can't use the typical comic book "somehow"--as in Percy Pootwaddle was sitting on a hydrogen bomb when it exploded. Somehow he survived and became...Nuclo-Man!
If this does become something more than just a short run, I'd really love to see Minear, Fury, Jeff Bell, Greenwalt and DeKnight involved. Those guys were Angel for me. Seasons 2 through 4 of Angel are the best seasons of Joss television. Those dudes were 'uge for that. 'uge. A Season Six comic wouldn't be the same without them. Or, at least the first three.
I think Brian Lynch is a brilliant writer and I could see him continuing with Angel for years to come. I absolutely loved 'Spike: Asylum' and I can't wait to see what he'll do w/whatever is left of the fang gang.
(Sigh) What could of been if Joss had a sixth season.....damn that Jordan and the frog he rode in on!

Sorry, some anger still pent up in here. As I said in the other thread, I'm tickled pink to see the 'verse continue in any form as long as Joss and/or his fellow writers are at the helm.

I must salute my fellow members in several of the directions they've taken the characters. Reading this thread has been a storyboard by itself.
At least this, combined with Buffy season 8, will finally put to rest the theory of Buffy and her slayers riding in on white horses to save Angel in the alley. ;) That's way too easy a way out.

I almost don't want this to happen, because I'm worried. Angel went out so perfectly. It'd be so easy to cheapen it by having everyone miraculously survive. And bringing Wesley back just to have him back would disappoint me, as much as I love the character.

Personally, I'll only be satisfied if they do it in a way that is so spectacular that none of us could hope to see it coming. Something only Joss could come up with, you know?
I'm a little iffy on the whole continuity issue.
As far as the separate stories goes, we will resolve how they can both be going on. It might end up a little bit too much like X-Men, who are doing different things in every comic, but hopefully we will work out more continuity than that.

I really hope things line up, and obviously not in terms of when issues are distributed, because that's not up to Joss. I'd just hate to see Angel doing something in Buffy's comic while in the same timeline he's doing something else in his own comic. And that sounds like it's an option. They were pretty good with the shows in keeping things in one clear timeline, even when characters crossed over.

Also, I'm a little concerned that Joss is co-writing this with a comic writer. As in, it sounds like no Angel writers will be attached. Now, I trust Joss' judgement, and I know comic writers are on the Buffy comic, but NO show writers? Or is it still early in the game? I guess as long as Joss has story and script approval, it should be fine.

Of course, I just got a 10 minute speech from my comic nerd hubby that I'm a snobbish tv-fan who's being too nitpicky in what Joss says, but if he's preparing us for continuity errors already...it worries me. And when he says he's 'co-writing' something for the show comic with a non-show writer...I wonder what that actually means.

And Joss knows fans will read any canon comic he puts out, whether it's on DH or IDW or Frank's Independent Drivel. I understand wanting each company to have a complete story on its own, but he knows we'll follow him wherever.
Of course, I just got a 10 minute speech from my comic nerd hubby that I'm a snobbish tv-fan who's being too nitpicky in what Joss says

*Sigh*....All the man is saying is that he wants the series to be independent, but he still wants to do some cross-over visiting and he'll do his best not to flub on continuity. Doesn't mean we'll know the exact hour when Buffy's breakfast lines up with Spike battling the Moonnites, but it'll work out.

Sheesh, he's just trying to put people's minds at ease.

As to the comic writers' input, I agree. Neither Dark Horse nor IDW has a particularly good track record with Jossverse writing without Joss. So it kind of depends on how much input and communication there will be.
Peter David is exclusive to Marvel Comics so other then his creator owned Fallen Angel at IDW,I don't think his contract allows him to work on anything else outside Marvel.Unless he gets a special permission maybe like Jeph Loeb seems to have for Buffy season 8.

These days most of exclusives in the comic book industry, don't seem to mean exclusive from any of the independent companies, just DC and Marvel. So Marvel exclusives are just to stop the creator from working at DC during his/her contract, just as DC exclusive stops that creator from working at Marvel. So it's quite possible that Peter David could work on Angel Season 6.
It would be nice to have harmony back, familiar faces and that when I'm pretty sure that only Angel, Spike and Illyria survived,

But then again I wanted Harmony to go to the Slayers castle and apply for receptionist, handing in the recommendation she got from Angel.That would also be nice.

And Lorne!No season 6 without Lorney Tunes.
Dang Whedon for getting me re-addicted to comic books/graphic novels. I'd managed to wean myself off of them in 2001 when I got, ahem, a little obsessed with Whedon's shows. So traded in my X-men addiction for a Buffy one. Only to have Whedon go off and become a comic book writer and get me hooked again.

I agree with him. Marvel has a horrid habit of forcing you to read all their comics in order to follow a story thread. They did it back in the 1990s with Onslaught and then again recently.
One of the nice things about Grant Morrison's run and now Whedon's with Astonishing, is you don't have to read all of them to follow the story.

That said - I think cross-over's with Angel and Buffy make sense. And like the tv series, you can do it without people having to read both books. But the two tales do exist on different planes and genres. BTVS is more sci-fi/superhero while Angel/Spike is more noir/mystery/Sam Spade/gothic.
As long as he doesn't do a cross-over with Firefly, I'm set.
(Which the X-men did with Star Trek once and it was just silly.)

Love the idea of Brian Lynch/Whedon comic - Lynch nailed the Spike character in Aslym, as well as the tone and humor of the verse. I actually enjoyed Asylum more than the other BTVS/ATS comics including Fray and Tales of the Vampires. He is the rare writer who can combine action with character development without sacrificing either. He also has the ability to capture the complexity of the character - make him 3 dimensional. Can't wait to see what he does with Angel S6 - Whedon doing it with him, is a bonus.
I wish I kept notes on where I read the bit about Gunn being turned into a vampire and being the 'big bad' (originally) for Season Six. I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to spread fake rumors for the heck of it (Not my cup of tea to do that, trust me.). But the bits/pieces are from memory of different bits in Angel magazine interviews/internet interviews/etc.- and usually it wasn't necessarily the main topic of conversation per se.

But... personally, I love that idea, if it were true. It would have given Gunn a more substantial role in the show again (because remember during the last season, Gunn took on the brain enhancement experiment because he didn't feel like he had a lot to contribute aside from muscle next to Wesley)-

And.......how can an Angel series go on without Wesley? (Ok, I'm biased. Wesley ended up being such an AWESOME character, from where he started from to where he ended up.) If Willow could bring back Buffy back from the dead because she needed Buffy's help to save the world again, couldn't they do the same with Wesley (with, of course, consequences just like in Buffy Season 6)?

Still.... once Joss Whedon is back on=board, I'm there. I agree, it's a pity that Tim Minear, Jeffrey Bell, and the other Angel writers aren't mentioned as contributors as well- but, hey, this is still great news, I agree.......
Like Tara, I think Wes died a natural (?) death so that isn't optional. Then again, Joss is running this story so.......
I'm caught between ecstasy and dread here. It's awesome that it's gonna happen, but I've spent the time since the cancellation watching my own Season Six in my head, and some of it I'm really loving. So seeing the "official" story continue will be bitter sweet I imagine...
The Gunn becoming a vampire and being a big bad came from Amy Acker at a convention last summer.She was talking about The Spike movie if remember.

I found a old link.

http://tv.ign.com/articles/712/712641p1.html

Acker also gave more specifics on the movies then was previously known, explaining Whedon's intent to make three of them; one starring James Marsters's Spike, another Eliza Dushku's Faith and the third focusing on Alyson Hannigan's Willow. However, several other Buffy and Angel characters would have also appeared, including Acker's Illyria and J. August Richard's Gunn. In fact Acker revealed [Spoiler warning just in case these movies ever happen] that Gunn would have become a vampire and a primary villain.

Harvey chin, we're not doubting your statement that there was a possibility that Gunn was going to be a vampire in Season 6. In fact I remember hearing that also. I think Amy Acker said it at a convention. What we're speculating on is, not if it was intended but, how it could have happened.

Willow could bring back Buffy because her death was mystical. In Seeing Red when Willow tried to bring back Tara, it was made clear that a mortal death by mortal means could not be reversed. That seems like a pretty solid rule in the Buffy 'verse. I also liked Wesley, but I have to give him up as gone.
(Oops, looks like Madhatter beat me to this point.)
Harvey,
The Gunn as vampire stuff was discussed here on Whedonesque some time ago. It was around the time it became clear that the Spike and other movies/dvds what have you weren't going to get financed, and so people felt they could talk about what would have happened if they had. I think there was an interview where Amy Acker talked about it. It very much stuck in my mind because it was just the one thing that Charles Gunn would have hated more than anything else.

And as for there not being time during a battle, Harmony got turned during the battle with the Mayor. It doesn't have to take all that much time. I agree with those who say Gunn wouldn't willingly drink knowing what it would do to him, but being on the point of death he wouldn't necessarily be conscious enough to know what was going on or be able to resist it. It's never seemed like it takes a lot of vampire blood for the change, just a little bit dribbled into the victim's mouth. I don't believe his sister would have changed willingly either.

[ edited by barboo on 2007-03-18 05:54 ]
Isn't a bit premature to be worrying that other Angel writer's haven't been mentioned? Seriously. This is really early, people.
I never bought that Harmony got turned during the Graduation Day battle. Logically it is was very weak. The writers, unfortunately, just wanted Harmony back and used the fact that she was bitten during the battle as means to have her return as vampire. Vampires, along with most other beings, have a sense of self-preservation, besides being completely selfish. Turning someone during battle takes your focus off the battle and, therefore, makes it easier to be killed. Why would a vampire be thinking of turning someone during a battle, much less putting itself at risk by doing so?

That being said, I'm not too tweaked about it. It just seemed odd and it's fun to speculate how it could have happened. If that's the tack the story is going to take, I'm sure it will be explained satisfactorily, especially since Gunn is a major character and has a long history fighting and hating vampires -- unlike Harmony.

[ edited by MacGuffin on 2007-03-18 06:35 ]

[ edited by MacGuffin on 2007-03-18 16:01 ]
Actually we know that people who died of mortal means CAN be raised from the dead, just that what you end up with is going to be very messy (Buffy' Mom, and an entire police squad were raised from the dead). And personally I would be thrilled with zombie Wesley, he can eat my brains any time he wants to.
Hmm. Really concerned along with Rogue Slayer that there aren't any Angel writers on board. Of course with Joss steering the ship, there is a lot of trust. Still, nigglingness is present.

Saje, we've already seen Gunn go to some places unexpected. If he survives (big IF, cuz Joss has already said that he bit it, no pun intended - ok, maybe a little punnage), I can totally see him taking the immortal chomp. He's always been a risk-taker, and always wanted to stay in the fight.

What if he realizes he's dying, and that is the only way? Some good storyage there, methinks.

And I realize I'm in the minority here, but I have to say that I REALLY wanna see B and a squad of NewSlayers frickin' swoop the hell in to help with the carnage in the alley. I know Angel is all independent. But it would not only be a huge HOORAY moment. It also would speak to their history. I would love it. I would LOVE it.

I posted a quick and breathless scenario of how I would like to see it happen at AtS's end. It was a long time ago, but I still hold those thoughts and images dear. They were nearly always THERE for each other, damnit! Why would this be any different?
Point taken, embers. I was thinking more along the lines of a Buffy resurrection (i.e., coming back normal) and not zombie territory.

I think the whole Angel, Season 6 still is in the preliminary stage; therefore, it's too early to worry that none of the Angel writers are signed up. I don't think IDW is at the stage where they're ready to announce other writers. I'm just happy Brian is working on this.
Hell, it was perhaps the best ending to a TV show ever.


Watch Six Feet Under, then revise that statement.


Yes. Six Feet Under had the best series finale EVER, even though I love Buffy and Angel as a whole so much more.
That's great news for those of you happy about it. :)

Too bad the show died for me when Fred became Illyria. I might check it out just to see who survived the alley but beyond that, I'm not interested.
It's great news that Angel's story will definitely continue. Besides Wes :(, I'm really only interested in seeing what happens to Angel and I'm glad we'll get a chance to offically revisit the story.
And I realize I'm in the minority here, but I have to say that I REALLY wanna see B and a squad of NewSlayers frickin' swoop the hell in to help with the carnage in the alley. I know Angel is all independent. But it would not only be a huge HOORAY moment. It also would speak to their history. I would love it. I would LOVE it.


Oh man,so would I.
When Angel was cancelled, I was shocked into grief so intense it was as if I'd experienced an actual death. The abrupt ending to Illyria and Wesley's story was particularly heartbreaking. We lost the opportunity to see two of the series' most talented actors go places with their characters that they (and we) had never experienced before.

While Wes's death happening through non-magical means* might take the option of resurrection off the table, consider: Illyria's powers were stripped and stored via physical device by Wesley in a "pocket universe" -- stored, meaning there might be a possibility those powers could be retrieved and Illyria restored to full strength. At full strength, Illyria could stop and reverse time. She could physically return to the moment of Wesley's death, prevent it from happening, or even change events entirely. She time-traveled, then non-magically killed everyone in "Time Bomb", yet later re-altered future timelines let them move forward again, alive, as if nothing had happened. Why couldn't she do the same for Wesley? Arriving only five minutes earlier to Wes's confrontation with Cyvus Vail would likely create an entirely different resolution to that event.

I guess in short, if Joss has his hand in and he's ready to start telling that story, I'm ready to see it. I could worry a comic won't fulfill the promise of the TV series, but I'm already resigned to the fact that we likely won't see these stories at all if they don't happen in some form pretty soon. TV is unavailable, so, considering what stands to be gained, I'm thinking better now than never, and better this than nothing.

*(which is arguable, since we don't know if the weapon was enchanted in any way)
Oh my god. :o

As symbolically meaningful as 'Not Fade Away' was for me, that final defining moment we see Angel in that closing shot, there was still far too much potential and goings on with the characters that it just screamed for more. So, yes, I'm very exited, and thus, I repeat my first words:

Oh my god. :o
I know beggars shouldn't be choosers but I was still holding out in some small way for the post NFA adventures of the Fang Gang being shown on the small screen. Yes I know it was a naive daydream but the announcement of the Angel season 6 comics was the final nail in the coffin for that particular fantasy. I was going to somehow work in William Pitt's comment "Roll up the map of Europe; it will not be needed for the next ten years" in the above paragraph but I haven't had enough coffee or cigarettes this morning.

Angel was my favourite Joss show. Buffy was my first love, Firefly was perfect viewing but my heart will always belong to Angel. I miss the show. We're robbed by the WB. So I want to see this IDW project work. I also want to see someone capable of writing the character of Angel. Very few writers manaage to nail him, I've never figured why he is so difficult to capture in comic book format.

As for Mutant Enemy writers coming on board, I think it's too early to tell. It was only in the last few months that we found out the Mutant Enemy roster that was going to write the Buffy season 8 comic books for Dark Horse.
This is the best news ! Congratulations, Brian,

[ edited by Shade of Pale on 2007-03-18 10:00 ]
Simon - Lord Palmerston was better! Sorry, couldn't resist!
I wanted small screen too. *sniff*
but comix, yeah!
joss made me love comix and tv and sifi... and hate spoilers...
joss made me the person I am today. and I don't want to see what happened in the alley, I want to know how they deal with what happened in the alley... and I want gunn staking himself when he finds out, that he's a vampire. like he did with Alonna. oh, no... I don't want that, or do I... I don't know what I want.

something very similar to great news. *performs the dance of joy*
will doug petrie be writing an issue? or steven s. deknight? or tim minear? or mere smith? will joss write one? how many square meters of earth are covered by the alps? how many by the indian ocean? questions over question... joss, do you want to step in with an explanation soon?
I wish I kept notes on where I read the bit about Gunn being turned into a vampire and being the 'big bad' (originally) for Season Six

Just to be clear harvey chin, I wasn't doubting your word at all, as others have said the idea was mentioned by Amy Acker and discussed on here previously, I just meant that as far as I know we've never heard that plot proposal directly from Joss and/or another writer (love Amy to bits but it's at least possible that she could've misunderstood an off-hand, even jokey, comment so until Joss says it, it's only semi-official to me).

Very leery of Wesley being brought back though much as I think he had possibly the best arc of any secondary Buffyverse character (sometimes I think it's Spike depending on highly scientific criteria like, oh, day of the week ;) I just think we're in danger of being pandered to and watering down the concept of death too much. Gotta have the peril.

To those worried about lack of Angel writers, right now we don't even know if it's going to be more than one arc or how many issues it'll run for, it's very early days. If we do end up with a 'season' i'd imagine the same deal may well occur with a mix of comics writers and Angel staff coming on-board (and EdDantes, have you read 'Spike: Asylum' ? I suspect it might put to rest some of your worries, excellent job).

What if he realizes he's dying, and that is the only way? Some good storyage there, methinks.

Actually, I really like that Willowy. Gunn being desperate and thinking maybe he can hold on to enough of himself to stay his course and keep the mission (and his subsequent struggle/failure to) would be a great way to do it and, like you say, muchos storyage possibiliticiousness ;).
And I realize I'm in the minority here, but I have to say that I REALLY wanna see B and a squad of NewSlayers frickin' swoop the hell in to help with the carnage in the alley. I know Angel is all independent. But it would not only be a huge HOORAY moment. It also would speak to their history. I would love it. I would LOVE it.


Oh man,so would I.

Buffyfantic


Oh no. Personally I would hate that! Maybe it's because I thought that the ending of Angel was far stronger then 'Chosen' that I wouldn't want to see a lessening of what was so beautifully built up in that Final Alleyway scene.

To have a bunch of 'baby Slayers' 'saving the day' would undermine that so much of that good work. Oh god just thinking about it now gives me the horrors. *shudder*
"Okay, look, this is my straight face. You don't want to mess around with the straight face because chaos will follow."

I'm laughing so hard, I'm crying. Where's my rock? I just need to think this one over awhile.
Hey, some of the speculation here could be considered spoilers, since it was plans fer da footar, and those plans may appear in coomkee form.

That said, I'll totally add to the speculation train as it rides into da mooount'n.

Wes!lives: Jeff Bells comments on that were about if season 6 had been going ahead, with regards to the season 5 finale "Not Fade Away". So Wesley wouldn't have died in NFA. Now, clearly, Wesley did die in NFA.

Gunn: Acker spilled the beans on that a bit, one suspects. Personally, I like to think Gunn's 'brain implant' has other side effects we don't know about... espes' in ye old case o' death.

Everybodies so obsessed about the alley. Here's a question. The alley's done. W&H, gone. What do the band of buggered do now?
Wesley and Illyria is possible the greatest story ever created in any medium, so I do hope for some form of continuance of that -- some posters above already came up with some great ideas on how to (like Wesley somehow having obtained a bit of Old One essence/power or Illyria fully regaining hers). I do think Fred's soul is really, really gone though, just like what happens in real life when someone dies, sadly. But it would still be very interesting and emotional to see Willow at least try to get her friend back though (like I heard was originally intended). Even though in the end it is too much to ask even from her, the most powerful witch of all.
I had a feeling this was coming from the moment Joss announced Buffy Season 8. Glad to see it, though my pocketbook is already screaming.
gossi, just let it go.
Yeah, Willowy, I like that Gunn idea, too. Especially since Gunn has already shown he's willing to take that sort of big chance, risking losing himself- with the brain upgrade.
I'm more excited about this than I am about Buffy. Angel was the best show.

Of course I am still a bit bitter about both of my boys, Lindsey and Wesley, dying at the end tho....
Oh my God.

Oh my God!

OH MY GOD!

I am so very, very happy. Buffy S8 had an utterly fantastic start last week, and I'm completely confident that Angel S6 will rock, and heartily.

Buffy and the Slayers coming in to save the Fang Gang...two words: "Hell" and "no." That would be terrible; it would totally undermine the significance and meaning that that last-ditch fight had. Angel, as well as Angel, had become a different entity separate from the Scooby Gang, and there's no way I'd want to undo that.

I don't particularly even want to see what happened during the alley fight; I wanna see what happened after. I also don't want Wesley back, as amazing as he was. That'd be like bringing Tara back, at least to me. If it happens, maybe Joss and Co. can surprise me...but right now, I am firmly opposed to it.

But whatever. It's Joss--and Brian, whom I've heard is excellent at writing these characters--doing Angel S6. Plus Serenity: Better Days is coming up.

All of my favorite shows are back!

Unplugged is at peace with the world.
YES!!! IT'S ALL BACK!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA Joss will rule the world!!

So yea I'm excited!
Unplugged, I disagree that it would undermine. I think it would be incredibly awesome. I don't mean for B to "save the day", I mean how cool would it be for them to fight back to back and have the odds just a bit more even? Like I said, "to HELP with the carnage...".

Even if they still lost, it would be a great chapter in the mythology. And to me, the perfect opportunity for them to come together once more.
Given that the alley fight would be of epic proportions, I can't imagine that at least some of the slayers that lived in LA wouldn't notice and go to kick some demon ass. Not necessarily Buffy since she's on another continent, and short of teleporting I don't see how she'd get there in time, but I can see some of the LA/CA slayers definitely showing up.

Simon, I'm with you on the disappointment that this news seems like the death knell for a movie. But is does give us some new canon stories and, who knows, there may be a movie yet. Hollywood seems to like making movies out of comics. (I have to keep my little flame of hope alive.)
After reading all these posts, I have mixed feelings regarding characters returning, etc. In particular, I have mixed feelings about Wesley. He was probably my favorite character on Angel until Spike joined the gang, and I would probably place them as a tie in s5. But I liked Wesley mostly because of AD. Were the series to come back to television or film, I would likely welcome any way to get him back, just to give AD screen time. But in the comics format, I think I would rather the character stay dead, because of how much Joss would have to tinker with the mythology to explain his resurrection.
"But then again I wanted Harmony to go to the Slayers castle and apply for receptionist, handing in the recommendation she got from Angel.That would also be nice."
LOL! That would be awesome!

I agree that it does seem like the final nail in the coffin as far as ever seeing anything onscreen. But I have been semi-resigned to that for a while.

But if it has to be done in comic form, I am happy that Brain Lynch is doing it. Asylum truly was outstanding.

I don't really want slayers to show up in NFA. Rather I think Illyria should bend time or something, which would also make just about anything possible, including Wes and Gunn's survival.

Of course I could also see Angel turning Gunn if he got the chance just for the expedience of needing him later. Angel was being pretty brutally pragmatic at the time.
Not that brutally pragmatic. Yes, Angel was willing to make a ton of sacrifices, but if he didn't start drawing the line somewhere, he might as well have permanently joined the Black Thorn. Even when he turned that guy in "Why We Fight", he really struggled with it.

All that being said, yipee!!! I think I'm more excited about this than the season eight comics. And while I do feel "Not Fade Away" was an amazing way to go out, I am eager to find out what's been happening with the Fang Gang.

And I have to agree with previous statements about the slayers swooping in to save the day. It just wouldn't do our team justice. In a way, it would nullify all the sacrifices they'd made. Buffy has her story, let Angel have his.
I'm wondering if a lot of the plot points are gonna change because cast/crew have revealed them (since the show was cancelled and all), or if they're just gonna go ahead with their original plan...

The revealed plot points are awesome (I remember something about a post-apocalyptic LA as the setting... yes?), and new stories will of course be as thrilling, so I'm excited either way, but I do wonder.
I don't know why people are upset about the idea of Buffy's team swooping in to save Angel's team. I mean, who swooped in to help Buffy in Chosen? (Ok, so the amulet came from W&H, but it was still Angel who made the deal.) I'm 100% certain that Buffy's team would have been obliterated without the amulet, because their only real plan was to make the few Slayerettes they had into full slayers, and even that wouldn't have worked against that ocean of ubervamps.

Not that I'm saying I need to see the Buffy gang save the Angel gang, but I wouldn't see it as terrible. It would at least show that the Buffy side still gives a damn what's happening on Angel's side, and that they don't just dismiss them altogether.
Here's what Brian Lynch has to say on his blog about the possible deal.
Dear Powers that Be,

I need more Wes.
No, really. NEED.

Love,
S.
I don't know why people are upset about the idea of Buffy's team swooping in to save Angel's team.


I think 'upset' is a bit strong. I'd be mildly annoyed. For five years I watched the show to see a vampire with a soul struggle with his past and fight the good fight with his friends. Having a bunch of slayers swoop down from the rooftops to save the day makes the whole thing pointless and redundant. Plus it reads like fanfic.

I would like to see Angel become human by the end of the season 6 comic books though. It would be the natural ending to Angel's journey.
Angel isn't natural, though, he's Supernatural! (Sorry).

Angel and friends went into a life or death battle against huge odds, where they knew they would likely die. If the resolution to that is that slayers come in, save the day, Wes comes back to life and everything is great then... well... It'd be a shit story. Angel 'season six' is a great idea because of where it begins. Anything can happen. That's a lot of plot. If you take everything away from a person, what's left?
I would like to see Angel become human by the end of the season 6 comic books though. It would be the natural ending to Angel's journey.


No, Joss is saving that for the 2010 big screen Buffyverse movie where Buffy, Angel, and the main cast of both shows join forces to fight the biggest, epic, most global apocalypse they've ever seen. You know the one, mentioned in Fray, that forces demons out of this world and stops the Slayer line for 500 years.

Yes, it's going to happen. I live in a happy place.
Angel swooping in to save Buffy in "Chosen" is a completely different story from the possibility of Buffy et al. saving Angel's butt in the alley, because Angel was a part of Buffy, whereas Buffy was not a part of Angel. He was the first vampire she helped redeem. And besides, it's not exactly like Angel did all the work....

Angel turning Gunn would just not happen. I could see him going as far even to kill Gunn if he needed to (the way he killed Drogyn, the pure), but Gunn is his friend, and Angel knows that that is the last thing that Gunn would want of anything. And from the first episode he was in we saw Gunn choose death over vampirism, in the form of his sister. Nope, no way Angel would go that far.

I'm sort of nervous about Joss "co-writing" the arc; until Joss steps forth and announces its canonity I'll be skeptical. Nothing of course against Mr. Lynch.
Joss you never rest do you!
I would like to see Angel become human by the end of the season 6 comic books though. It would be the natural ending to Angel's journey.

Simon, from your post to Joss's and Brian's eyes. However, much like Joss answered my question about Buffy having any lasting happiness, perhaps Angel's story will never be fully told either. But I certainly like to think of him becoming human again.
I would have loved it if Buffy and the gang came to fight by Angel's side in the alley. I don't think it would have taken away from his story as long as they were there to support him and his family and didn't take over the fight. It would have been great to really see Buffy and Angel fighting shoulder to shoulder, like he said in Chosen.
Thank you, maje. That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier. Twice, in fact. The "saving the day" was never part of what I said.

I said HELP.

*sorry if that's pedantic, but it was starting to bug me...*
Re Vamp-Gunn:
FRED: Cordy's evil. Nice suit.
ANGEL: It's not Cordy.
WESLEY: We don't know that for certain.
GUNN: Whoa. Back it up for the new guy. You saying popping mama threw you a beating?
LORNE: Kid Vicious did the heavy lifting. Cordy just mwa-ha-ha'd at us.
GUNN: Why?
ANGEL: Beastmaster.
GUNN: You think she's working for him?
FRED: She is the Master.
GUNN: Guy steps out for a few hours, half the place goes super-villain.

It would be interesting to see. Plus, I think J. August would have done a very good job with that on screen.

Re Season 6 Comic:
Wait, I go from never walking into a comic book store, to buying 1 a month, and now I'm going to be buying multiple comic books? Should I start collecting action figures while I'm at it? Joss makes you do the wacky.

Re Not Fade Away:
I think it was a great way to go out. Shows that were perfect from beginning to end (for me, anyway) were 1) Angel, and 2) Ed. Having it end there worked for me.
So many comments..

* to MacGuffin and Saje:
"Harvey chin, we're not doubting your statement that there was a possibility that Gunn was going to be a vampire in Season 6. In fact I remember hearing that also. I think Amy Acker said it at a convention. What we're speculating on is, not if it was intended but, how it could have happened. "

thanks for clearing it up, I thought I'd read it here, but wasn't sure. Also, even though nobody said they doubted me, since there are soooooo many wild rumours out of nowhere on so many projects on sites like aintitcoolnews.com, I wanted to try to reference where I got my information at each point. thanx! :)

To Barboo:
"I agree with those who say Gunn wouldn't willingly drink knowing what it would do to him, but being on the point of death he wouldn't necessarily be conscious enough to know what was going on or be able to resist it. It's never seemed like it takes a lot of vampire blood for the change, just a little bit dribbled into the victim's mouth. I don't believe his sister would have changed willingly either."

Agreed. Also, with the giant number of mutants, trolls, monsters, etc. at the finale, who's to say Gunn wasn't dragged off during the melee?

To Jobo's comment:
"I'm wondering if a lot of the plot points are gonna change because cast/crew have revealed them (since the show was cancelled and all), or if they're just gonna go ahead with their original plan...

The revealed plot points are awesome (I remember something about a post-apocalyptic LA as the setting... yes?)...."

I also heard the same about the post-apocalyptic setting...but revisiting it might be odd, now that "Buffy Season 8" now exists, and some level of continuity between both comic worlds are trying to be met.

Personally, I do have a couple of concerns.
One of the AWESOME things that I've loved about Joss Whedon's shows is that the seasons never seemed to 'hold anything back' by the time it reached the season finale.

With soap operas and many comic books, where things can drag on because there's no real 'beginning-middle-end' (except maybe miniseries)- One thing that I hope is that the structure to the Angel comic becomes similiar to the tv seasons, that there do become great permanent changes to the characters from seasons to seasons- (or however long a season would be in comic book terms).

I'd LOVE it if we got a chance to see Angel finally become human for a season- and have the show develop with him AS a human for awhile! The tease for 5 seasons has been him being able to permanently become mortal, to finally find redemption.
Seeing how Angel would react to finally getting his one true wish (or dying not getting it) was what I was hoping to see in the series finale, and I felt robbed when it ended on a cliffhanger.

(though I love the Tim Minear joke that if the show had one more season and a series finale, Angel finally becomes human, then gets hit by a bus.) ;p

Basically, while I'm thrilled that Joss Whedon is writing Angel again, I hope that these aren't 'one-shots' but really continue the personal journeys of the whole ensemble and have them grow and change as much as they did in the tv show. To have anything less than that Buffy is getting now... well.... like Simon said, beggars shouldn't be picky, so I guess I should just be happy with what's happening and leave it at that.

still.... ;p

.
There are those of us who feel Buffy and her fellow slayers coming in to help out in the alley would be fitting. To me not only Buffy and an army of slayers, but Willow and an army of witches and Riley, Sam and an army of armies would be what it would take for the good guys to win that battle.

Now if you're not down with that, that's cool; everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But given what Angel, Spike, and Ilyria were up against, what other plausible way is there for them to have survived?
"But given what Angel, Spike, and Ilyria were up against, what other plausible way is there for them to have survived?"

I'm guessing that they fought back, but then were taken prisoner- and then eventually escape (except for Gunn, who gets transformed). Just a guess.

To have Buffy and the army of slayers come in and save the day- the reason that wouldn't sit well with me, is that it's highly unlikely (with Sarah Michelle Gellar not doing repeat appearances as Buffy) that this would have been the season 6 opener, given what resources they had at the time. I might be wrong, but since the show was also going in the direction of being more of a 'standalone' show anyhow, my own desire is to see where it was SUPPOSED to go at the time, if it were given a series renewal.

Having Buffy and the slayers save the day is plausible, but I'd feel that it was robbing the audience of what was really going to happen if the series got picked up. (Unless, of course, having slayers save the day was in the original plan. Again, I'm just guessing.) ;)
I would think that there would be plenty of vampires that would realize turing Gunn would be great revenge on Gunn himself and create a strong ally against Angel. It seems like once they are almost dead, victims of vampires don't seem to have a lot of will or consciousness left to resist being made to drink the vampire's blood, so I don't see that as a problem.

Oh, and in regards to Harmony, I just figured some vampire took the opportunity to sire a pretty girl rather than fight the fight. He was already tasting against the Mayors orders, so why not go all the way. Choice: risk unlife in battle with armed opponent or pick out a pretty girl from the crowd to drag off and sire. Tough choice for some guys but usually sex always wins.
But given what Angel, Spike, and Ilyria were up against, what other plausible way is there for them to have survived?

They fight tooth and nail for hours, maybe days and then they run away. Not saying it'd happen but at least it would fit with the means/ends, pragmatic nature of the show.

Angel and friends went into a life or death battle against huge odds, where they knew they would likely die. If the resolution to that is that slayers come in, save the day, Wes comes back to life and everything is great then... well... It'd be a shit story.

Bingo. That is a Buffy story (and probably a bit too youthfully optimistic even then). A fight that's won, even at a high cost, is exactly what's required of a story about growing into adulthood with all its risks and pain but also excitement and possibility.

"Facing fearful odds" in a dark alley, in the rain, charging towards the enemy when you 'know' you'll almost certainly die as a result in the total acknowledgment that you cannot win the war, you can only say to The (Evil) Powers That Be "Here we stood, against you and we lit such a candle ..." is more adult, more complex and frankly, at risk of being a bit controversial, more in keeping with the male nature of the show. It's an 'Angel' thing it doesn't belong in Buffy's world nor she in its (though as she gets older it will more and more until eventually she'll be the adult that has to accept that "No-one here gets out alive").

(and without making a big thing of it, I still think Buffy and the rest of the girls would've won without the amulet although admittedly nowhere near as quickly - certainly think that was how it was being presented to us what with the music, tide of battle turning after Buffy - literally - stands in the face of evil etc.)
100 posts! Hooray!

Didn't read the heading, what's this thread about?
Hey, everyone (and especially MacGuffin who I really love even more now for saying I'm a super nice guy...)--

I'm with you that this is fantastic news, since I love Brian and Joss and have been wanting to do something like this from the very start of our Angel comics. Never quite thought it'd happen, so it's very exciting for me, too.

I do have to ask a li'l bit of patience on everyone's part, though... this one is still in the planning stages (but ohhhh, are the plans exciting) and is months away at least. There's still Shadow Puppets to come first (and the Asylum and Auld Lang Syne TPBs). Shadow Puppets is just a blast, so I hope everyone checks that out first, and enjoys the sweet, sweet anticipation of this for a while, too. And as soon as we can all talk more about it, we will.
Well, as Angel said to Buffy, "I'm not gettin' any older."
Oh wait ...
Great to here from you,Chris and Brian.It's still early days yet but I think you can feel how excited everone is.Both Buffy and now Angel feel like they are really back.

As for Buffy and the Slayers helping in the alley battle,maje and Willowy pretty much expressed my feelings to the letter.
No one's mentioned what, to me, was the obvious:

Harmony getting turned during the battle against the mayor was entirely sensible. Why just stay confined to maiming and slaughtering when you can build your army whilst doing so?

And hi, Brian and Chris! Can't wait to see where all of this goes.
True but doesn't it take days for people to rise from the dead as vampires ? Previously we've seen folk being buried or laying in caskets before turning, much too late to help in the battle.

I do have to ask a li'l bit of patience on everyone's part, though...

Ah, patience. Yeah, no problem, that's totally our forté around here. Ahem ;).

(and welcome Brian 'receiver of the ultimate compliment from Joss' Lynch and Chris 'keeper - or at least editor - of the Angel flame' Ryall, thanks for the update, it really is exciting)
So many thoughts in this thread. Makes for good late-night insomnia reading, thanks all (and Brian and Chris, who have been tapped to head up this awesome venture with Joss. Suckers! ;)

...what other plausible way is there for them to have survived?

Going back to my earlier post, I always wondered what the purpose was of introducing the 'Mutari generator' (that gun-looking, Illyria-power-sucking device of Wesley's) in the first place if they didn't intend on using it again in the future? And why go to the trouble of saying Illyria's powers had been put into a "pocket universe" unless they wanted to leave open an option to give them back to her/it at some point?

I like to imagine that on Wesley's last day, he conspired with Spike to hide the gun/thingy in the basement of the Hyperion. It makes meeting in that alley, of all alleys in LA, perfectly sensible (besides the all-important iconic symbolism of having them making their badass last stand at their old digs, where they fought the good fight on their own terms).

While Angel fought the dragon and Illyria got to do more violence, Spike could have gone for the gun and then zapped Illyria. I don't think Illyria at full power would have had any difficulty whatsoever turning an entire alleyful of demons into a sticky, rain-swept smear with a mere gesture. Of course there'd be awful consequences with giving her all her powers back so abruptly, which would be great fun to sort out in the coming months, and I like to think that's when they all ran away into the sewers to hide for a while and figuratively lick their various (and in Angel's case, probably terrible) wounds.

I hadn't heard the intriguing Gunn-as-vampire/season BB rumor before, but I definitely imagine it happening only if he was turned against his will by another vamp. Knowing how Gunn feels about vampires (exemplified by Gunn dusting his own sister, which Angel witnessed), I can't believe Angel would do that -- at least not any Angel we've seen up until now.

(The nostalgic part of me can imagine Buffy and her slayettes showing up to join forces.... Then the bubble pops in my brain, and I remember that Buffy wasn't even taking Angel's phone calls in S5 and, according to Andrew (not the most reliable source of info, but still) she didn't trust him anymore. Doesn't sound like they would be waiting with packed bags to jump on a plane and come save Angel's W&H tainted ass, if they even knew what was going on in LA, which seems pretty unlikely. But on the other hand...)

(...if Faith got wind of things early on, and just happened to be in the area collecting slayers, I could see her (and Robin Wood, the way things were going in "Chosen") showing up to pitch in, since she had a loyalty to Angel borne of more recent vintage. Can you imagine her response on learning that Wes, her sorta-kinda-Watcher, has been killed? Criminy. Won't happen, I'm sure, but could make a hella good fanfic, anyway....)

[ edited by Wiseblood on 2007-03-19 08:20 ]
Tonya J commented:
Well, as Angel said to Buffy, "I'm not gettin' any older."
Oh wait ...


In Angel season 5, Spike in one of his bitchy moments tells Angel that all the do-gooding and angst is aging him. I thought at the time that was laying a seed for season 6 and the inevitable aging process (though, truth to tell, DB is looking a hell of a lot fitter now he's recovered from the knee and putting on weight thing). James Marsters is lucky - his bone structure and whippet-like build have stood him in good stead but if Angel had gone on, they'd have had to have accommodated DB's aging. This comment of Spike's suggested to me that Angel, instead of miraculously turning mortal, was becoming more human from the journey he was taking with all the upsides and downsides that would bring. Of course, the logical outcome of that thought is that 1,000 years down the road, he'd be gross and wrinkly (a bit like Dorian Grey's portrait)but still with the immortality and superpowers. Not a pretty thought.
I argued this same idea with a friend several years ago, nemesis, figuring that the burden of Angel's soul -- especially since it had been thrust upon him rather than acquired willingly, and considering that his lifespan as a evil vampire was far longer than Spike's -- would have worn him down physically moreso than Spike's soul would have, comparatively. (Though I agree DB's looking uber-fantastic these days, and could probably keep pulling off the immortal thing for another few years.)

I love the idea of Angel going human eventually, but it's also been put to me before that Angel likely already had his shanshu in "I Will Remember You" and turned it down. Could he possibly be that lucky twice? This is Angel we're talking about -- Mr. Bad Karma Magnet of the known universe and all :)
A canon Angel continuation would be very exciting. I hope it happens, although I've rather enjoyed having my version of the events after NFA - there were shrimp!

As for bringing back dead characters, not just Wesley and quite possibly Gunn, but even Lindsey, surely it doesn't always have to be the good guys behind the resurrections? Even if Wolfram and Hart are brought down then a new big bad's going to fill the void right? Also, Harmony drank from Hamilton remember, so the blood of Wolfram and Hart is running in her veins too!
Please please please find a way to bring Wesley back. I've got this incredible soft spot for watchers.
More Buffy and now more Angel. This is great news. Just great.

OMG I just saw a comment about the series going on and the way David looks. Have you seen him lately? He is looking fine. Really fine. No problems there.

[ edited by cheryl on 2007-03-19 13:39 ]
I never bought the idea that IWRY was Angel's shanshu mainly because the Oracles implied it wasn't.The shanshu was introduced in the finale but the seeds I think were laid back in this episode when the Oracles revealed that TPTB can grant mortality but they weren't responsible for this.The Mohra demon was an accident.

Angel:"It was the demon's blood. It wasn't the Powers-That-Be that did this?"
Male Oracle:"The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?"
Female Oracle:"You faced a Mohra demon. Life goes on."


To me,this is indicating Angel becoming human here in IWRY was a fluke caused by The Morah's blood.He'll have a second shot at becoming human in the correct way,by saving humanity and averting the Apocalypse.The name of this event is revealed as the shanshu,in the season 1 finale.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-03-19 19:13 ]
Well, all right then. That discussion was a few years ago. Wish I could go back in time; I'd forgotten the Oracles closed the loophole.

I guess there's nothing to do at this point but wait and see. If Buffy S8 sells well and Angel S6 can do likewise, maybe a film of some kind won't be out of the question. Comic book movies, as somebody said upthread, are pretty popular in H'wood these days -- especially when they're franchisable. And Joss has nothing if not a gift for stories that lend themselves to being told through time. Must be a bit of Irish in the man....
As much as I wanted a season 6, I agreed with Gouki. A good part of me wants to just think of them as being there, in the ally, fighting the good fight, and that's all I need know. I'd rather not know who lived and who didn't. I'm happy thinking that the firght was what mattered, not the outcome.

That, and I was somewhat disappointed with the first Angel comic. It was okay, but, as Simon said, no one has quite managed to capture Angel's voice in comic books yet. That, and, well, I was glad it wasn't "canon," so that I could still think of those heroes, fighting together in the ally.

Also, it would mean that I didn't have to have "Angel" without Wesley. See, if the series was over, than I could say that Wes was there to the end.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
I kind of think that Brian Lynch and Chris Ryall deserve special colors for their names here at Whedonesque: I really appreciate having them post and I sincerely hope they realize that the arguments and concerns expressed here show our huge interest in an Angel Season 6! I can be patient, after all I have lots of other comics to look forward to (like Spike: Shadow Puppets). I'll definitely be reminding my local comic book store to stock up on these IDW titles, they don't want to be caught short like they were with the first Buffy season 8 comic!
I'm sorry to be the one that sucks here, but I really don't want this. I'll read it if it's canon (which the IDW report said it was), but I want to remember Angel as fighting his fight. His fight never ended. That's what made the finale so perfect, he didn't end winning or losing, he ended fighting. I'm also disappointed because I think Joss will bring Wesley back, and I can't think of a satisfactory (to me) way for that to be done.
I can think of several ways to bring Wes back. Just have Ilyria tune back in on that wonky time travel thing she does. Ilyria is crazy about Wes, she'd do it in a heartbeat.
Don't forget another beautiful and powerful lady who thinks a lot of Wes with the ability to move worlds and raise the dead. Lilah. This pair was actually my favorite of the two.

Add me to the list of people who would be jazzed as hell to see these comics lead into a Joss Whedon, SMG and DB feature on the big screen. I'd also be thrilled to see the queen with her army of slayers at the end of NFA. Willow, Giles, Riley??? Oh yeah, bring in the troops. Make a full circle moment AGAIN to the Mohra demons words about alone, together, powerful and dead. You have to love continuity.
Another perspective on Wesley's demise:
What if he wasn't dead- that Ilyria got it wrong (she didn't bury the body onscreen, nor bring Wes' body with her)?

What if another villainish lackey took away Wes after Illyria left and did something to Wes' body WORSE than death, screwing up his mind/etc.- and so his return wouldn't be 'nice and tidy', but an arc back from whatever was done to Wes.

Wes had soooo much more potential to go places as a character, although his 'death' in the finale was definitely heartbreaking with Illyria posing as Fred for him.... the ensemble of "Angel" to me was what made this (and Buffy and of course Firefly) a greeeeat show.

It didn't just center on any one character, you cared about the whole family of characters. Having Wes back would keep a sense of 'history' alive since, besides Angel, no other character has been around as long in the two series. Wes has a certain relationship dynamic to Angel that can't be duplicated by Angel/Spike or Angel/Gunn.

That Wes had more/less become Angel's equal in a sense makes him a little more fascinating to me, because he did it through study and training of supernatural elements, rather than through a supernatural curse.

Wes brings a great human perspective and can stand up to Angel toe to toe- With Spike, in a way, Spike steals the show and while he's fun to have around, he kind of reduces Angel to being a 'straight man'.

In old classic "Star Trek" terms, (and I know this may sound strange to anyone who hasn't grown up with classic Trek) Wes is Bones to Angel's Captain Kirk. And what's classic Trek without the core relationship dynamics?

Wes is the 'everyman' who was the relatable buffoon in the beginning, to becoming the great dark underrated human character that could face the supernatural, through his own efforts to be able to challenge them.

Remove Wes, and you remove that 'ordinary joe' character from the family.
Ok, I promise that's my last argument as to why Wes is essential to the "Angel" family of characters. thanks for indulging me. ;)
Am I the only one who would like to see Connor return? Wait, scratch that, I probably am the only one who'd want to see that. :)

Yes, I pretty much despised him in seasons three and four. But by season five, I think that he'd become a worthwhile character. Had the series continued, his character had a lot of potential for growth. Seeing him interact with the rest of the crew would add an interesting dynamic to the series. Hopefully Joss and Co. will include him in the festivities.
Cool I can’t wait for these to be released; being that Angel is my favorite Whendon show. But hey with the Buffy comics here I can be patient till they come out.

About the Wes resurrection I always thought the best way to bring him back would to just say his contract w/ Wolfram & Hart went beyond death and kept him in one of there alternate dimensions, then Angel & company go in and find a way to get him out.

I’m also hoping one day we get a Ultimate Buffyverse movie w/ both cast together fighting that super apocalypse mentioned in “Fray”, but I always hoped it would be more of a movie miniseries ala Lord of the Rings. And hey w/ the computer tech their using in movies now (see X-men 3), the age for the actors playing our favorite immortals wont matter as much if it takes 5 or more years for anything to hopefully happen.
Oh deepgirl, I would LOVE to see Connor. Sure he was creepy in Season 4, but he was wonderful in Season 5, and I had loved the Angel: Spotlight Connor comic.

If they ever do a Buffyverse movie (and I hope they do) I sincerely hope they won't CGI the actors to look young, I would rather that Joss wrote them to explain that time has passed and the characters are the same age as the actors.
I wouldn't mind Conner coming back either. His line of " Hey, dress for less" was one of the best that season. I loved that scene of him stepping in to help his Dad. Brought a tear to my eye.
I'm looking forward to the Angel comix with hope and worry. I hope us more mature fans won't be forgotten in favor of a kids comic. I also hope there will be more of the Angel and Spike relationship. Spangel!
Gunn as a vampire will be interesting if that happens.I always thought Lawson was a slap in the face to the fans who were devastated at the change of Spike's sire. I and tons of fans truly hope that that will be changed back in the comix. Angelus will always be William's one and only SIRE to us!

[ edited by angelusiredspike on 2007-03-20 04:02 ]
For this fan, Dru sired Spike. Very compelling storyline, Spike and Dru. Second favorite pairing of the series.
It seems to me that Angel: Season Six will be written the same way as the Serenity comics. Joss comes up with the stories and character arcs, someone else writes them, and Joss gets final edit of the graphic novel.
Angel Season 6 - three words have never sounded sweeter!

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