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April 05 2007

(SPOILER) Herc's Seen Buffy 8.2! AICN's Hercules gives a page-by-page review of Issue 2 of Buffy Season 8 (AICN is having technical issues at the moment so link not working). Couldn't get a hold of it at your comic book shop? Comic Book Resources has an eleven page preview of issue 2.

Ok, the Spuffy in me sees Spike in the dream. But even if that were true, she was also dreaming about having sex with Xander, so anything goes...
I'm a total comic book n00b, but that review confuses me. Who is the intended audience? It's written in a bizarrely cryptic fashion, so as not to reveal any of the major plot points, but who in their right mind would be reading a page-by-page desciption of a comic book if they didn't want to be spoiled?

Anyway. Thoughts I've been thunking since I first attacked the issue this afternoon:

Are we to infer that Buffy and the Xan-Man have been McGettingItOn in the castle since she says, "I'll be gentle this time?" Zoinks!

Mr. Leather Jacket is infuriating in his ambiguousness. Beaucoup d'ambiguousness, don'cha know. Leather coat -- Spike or Angel. Calling Buffy "my love" instead of plain "luv?" Gotta give that one to Angel. Neck size? Definitely Spike.

Also? Andrew? Wouldn't have recognized him if he wasn't prattling on about Lando Calrissian. Definitely the weakest artistic representation of an actor so far, IMO.

Was Willow supposed to be issue one's floating feet? But she's not wearing a long coat and clodhoppers ...

And the most intriguing mystery of all -- what is the significance of the kung-fu moose on Buffy's tank top?
Xander and Buffy!?!?! Please say it ain't so, Joe!

They're like brother and sister, yikes. Remember that quote from Restless...

I haven't read the issue yet.. kinda clicked on this by accident.
I think this and floaty guy in issue 1 are the same person.Unless Spike or Angel learned to fly,I don't think it's them but our big bad.I think mystery floaty jacket guy/dream jacket guy is a red herring for our vamps.Joss is so playing with everybody who wants to see Angel and Spike.lol

There will be a Angel and Spike mention/scene in next month's issue though.

It does seem like Joss might be playing around with Buffy/Xander in season 8 especially after reading this issue.I think those two slayers who were on castle guard watch were noticing interest from Buffy in Xander.

We also get to find out what the kiss of true love that will awaken Buffy is.A kiss from someone who is in love with Buffy but Buffy herself doesn't have to feel necessarily the same way about.After this issue,I think it will be Xander and B/X will be danced around with in season 8 springing from this issue and next.

And I also wonder if maybe Buffy and Xander did the deed one time post Chosen as well.

Loved the Xander/Dawn talk although freaky that giant Dawn was naked during the talk.lol

Can't wait for the showdown between Willow and Amy.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-04-05 03:27 ]
I took the Buffy/Xander thing to be strictly dream wackiness. And one of the two Slayers on guard was the one who made the geeky Nick Fury comment in ish #1... she seems to be the one with a thing for Mr. Harris.

Overall, I really enjoyed #2 quite a bit more than #1. Part of it is because I was spoiled for everything that happened in #1, but I thought the pacing worked a bit better and the dialogue sounded more natural. Plus, gotta love the Joss dream sequences. I'd guess that the mysterious dream guy is neither Angel or Spike. Hopefully it's someone very very disturbingly wrong. Because that's always fun.

Looking forward to #3.
I agree with Lady Brick, the Buffy/Xander thing was only a dream as was the Spikelike figure. She is asleep. Damn that rat.

Also, I don't think the floaty feet from #1 belong to the floaty person in #2. And the first sentence told me immediately that was Andrew. I much prefer when comics don't try to be photorealistic. Andrew is a character. He doesn't have to look like Tom Lenk.
And one of the two Slayers on guard was the one who made the geeky Nick Fury comment in ish #1... she seems to be the one with a thing for Mr. Harris.


I think you're right on that.I just looked at both issues again.
I think you're right on that.I just looked at both issues again.

Good, because I posted that without actually checking it myself :p
But the Slayer who seems to have a thing for Xander, Renee I think, was killed right? During the attack she gets stabbed in the back with a sword.
Yeah,she's killed by those living dead monsters attacking the castle.
I really really enjoyed this issue as well. Agreeing with everyone that the B/X moment is a dream, well nightmare actually.
Had a "Nightmares" feel to it. That's always a good time to reflect upon. :)

Could Giant Dawn be only in Buffy's nightmare? Like maybe she isn't really a giant after all? I need to recheck my first issue and see if anybody else had contact with her, aside from Buffy.

Willow's entrance was freaking excellent. It mirrored my favorite moment in season 6 and the return of Giles. Giles is back too, I think? I love this comic. LOVE it!

A kiss of passionate love. In this Universe, that could be anymore. Especially if Buffy doesn't have to return the love for it to work. Hoping it's Angel all the same but time will tell.
A kiss from someone who is in love with Buffy but Buffy herself doesn't have to feel necessarily the same way about.


Sounds like Riley Finn to me.
We don't know that Renee is dead for sure, just that she's been injured. Who knows what healing powers their witches have.
Hey, I am all for a Xander/Buffy hookup. I was sold on the pairing in the first season and was never quite talked out of it despite my love for Angel and Spike (and Riley - what? I can hold multiple conflicting thoughts in my head at the same time. It's what makes me so indecisive in real life.) I do think that I am probably doomed to disappointment in the end, but I'll enjoy the ride.

If it's possible, I loved issue #2 even more than #1. Giles! Quippy Buffy! And more insight to the reasons behind Giant Dawn. Events are moving quickly, I expected it to take a few more issues before Amy was unleased, but we jumped right into her dastardly plan. Though it took me until my second or third read through to understand that Giles and Buffy weren't actually in the same place. It's still unclear what shape their relationship is in now. Love it and cannot wait for the next issue.
I have something to confess:
I have a huge crush on comic-Xander. His panels are my favorite and I *love* that he is getting so much attention. (As opposed to season 7) I've also become somewhat of a Xander/Buffy fan because he's perfect for her now and very available.

Was it Spike or Angel?: The coat and the way it was worn, along with that shirt suggests it was Spike, but Spike would have called her "love," not my love. Altough it is poetic, and he is a poet. What matters is that it possibly doesn't matter at all since its a dream. So I'm not going to worry about it. Plus, there's the possibility that its someone else all toghter, like Whistler or something.

Who is Amy's hideous boyfriend?: I'm thinking flayed-Warren at this point. It wouldn't have worked on TV with budget issues, and it would look *great* in the comics.

This comic was awesome from beginning to end. From Xander's commando-outfit line to his pajamas (there I go with Xander again. See?), and the sequence at the end. Its definetly the best comic I've ever purchased. And I should know, I've bought 2 ;).
I have seen it too, and I so thought it was going to be Xander until menomegirl said Riley. Dangit!! That makes too much sense that I now question the Xander thing!

Good second issue, I agree. And was I the only one who laughed when Dawn took a bath in a lake? LOL, that was frakkin hilarious to me.
A character killed off before love can flourish in the Buffyverse? Color me shocked ;)

But seriously, I was kinda psyched (albeit a little surprised) at the idea of a Buffy/Xander romance. I was always intrigued by those few moments in the series when it looked like there could be something more there, given the chance.

[ edited by prairieharpy on 2007-04-05 04:39 ]
I'm hoping it is Riley, personally. I liked him very much.

And I've got to admit, for someone who hasn't read a comic in very many years, I'm throughly enjoying these.
Arabchick, I was also a fan of Xander's duckie jammies.

My money's on Adam for Amy's boyfriend. Maybe she found his remains down in the crater and magicked him up a new core or something. There wasn't anything left of Warren after Evil Willow got done with him ... although I 'spose Amy could have magicked herself up a Warren body too, if she wanted.

I don't know that ol' Riley Finn is all that passionate about Buffy any more after his marriage to the Eastern European hottness.
I agree, karosurly, I think Riley is pretty much over Buffy. He looked healthily moved on last we saw him. My money's on Xander. I think he still holds a torch. I don't wanna see anything come of it, but I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that I ain't the boss of Joss. And that's probably a good thing.
I think B/X are together in this, or hooked up once, or are heading that way. Even though it was a dream state, I don't think the nightmare portion of Buffy's dream was her being with Xander, rather it was her fear of hurting him and possibly their friendship.

The true love kiss, I'd bet it's Xander. And karosurly, I agree too that it's not Riley. He moved on.

The figure in her dream saying "My Love", personally it seems like a misdirect to me, so it's not going to be either Spike or Angel.

Willow coming in at the end was fantastic.

[ edited by maje on 2007-04-05 05:21 ]
The floaty guy is probably Dracula. He was the one who had so many things he wanted to show her in season 5. He's also so full of himself that he might make the mistake of calling Buffy "His love".
The floaty guy being Dracula would also explain why Buffy is dreaming that Xander is losing his head. It could be a message of some kind, she used to get things like that via dreams all the time. Xander became Dracs butt monkey during season 5, maybe it's getting ready to happen again.

Never been a fan of the B/X theory, they seem more like family. Brother and Sister to be exact but we'll have to wait and see. If Joss does it, I'm sure it will make sense.
Yay! Been waiting for this thread all day. I was at the comic store right after they opened and went over to the Italian restaurant opposite to read. My jaw pretty much dropped into my pizza when Buffy asked Xander if he was coming to bed. No hints that it was a dream scene before. Typical Joe Swedon.

I doubt this is just throwaway with the characters. It's a dream but that part doesn't really seem like a nightmare in the sense that you cross scary boundaries for the first time. Not that it's real, either. But it could be long-term background radiation for both of them, both so long separated from their exes. I love the complex character stuff that's already going on.
Loved this ish even more than the first! I like that Buffy has a more easy going rapport with the other Slayers now, and loved the comment about Satsu's hair and the "kick my ass" training session. Very cute.

And consider me VERY intrigued by the kissing Xander dream, and the "true love kiss" development. ACK! In S1 and S2, I really wanted to see those two get together, but learned to move on. Now I'm getting sucked back to that place again!

And I also loved the Xander & Dawn scene - great stuff, and I'm glad to see Xander get so many good scenes these issues. I sure was starving for them in Season 7!

Oh, and my guess for Amy's boyfriend is Rack.
Buffy and Xander? I think I'm going to throw up. *collects self* It is amusing that it takes having no actor and dressing Komik!Xander up like Spike, to finally get B/X together hehehe. NB and SMG had zero sexual chemistry. Very convenient to not have to deal with that little problem anymore. ^o^ I'm still holding out hope that Joss is just toying with us but I'm not going to kid myself either.

Goddamn, I miss Spike! He makes everything better and... hotter. Whimper.
Hi karosurly. I checked out Zeus Comics as per your recommendation. I'll be going back next month to pick up #3. Thanks!
I'll second the Adam as Amy's boyfriend theory. In one of the many interviews Joss did before the first issue came out, he was asked who was his least favorite big bad in the Buffyverse. Joss answered Adam. I think Joss is going to use the comic to turn Adam into the badass he was meant to be.

I felt there was a good chance we might see some Buffy/Xander action in the comic, I just didn't think it would be this soon (even in dream form). I always thought they would get together on the show at some point, but the Xander and Anya relationship ended up being just too great to mess with. With Anya all sorts of dead (though I cross my fingers she'll appear in ghost form at some point), I think the Buffy/Xander pairing would make sense. That being said, I think Joss will throw us a curve ball. Xander won't be the one that kisses her, even if he does love her in a non-friendly way.
Back during Angel's season 5 I was hoping that Buffy would show up pregnant with Xander's baby (just because nothing would have freaked out Angel and/or Spike more), so I'm all for anything Joss does in this regard (but I already love Renee too).

I was telling some friends that although I enjoyed Astonishing X-men I wasn't attached to those characters and wasn't invested in what happens to them. But it hit me today that I am VERY invested in my Buffy gang, and the Runaways! Having Joss mess with the lives of these characters I love is really exciting, and I'll be waiting with baited breath every month for the new issues.
Actually, having Adam returns makes a lot of sense. I doubt Rack would be too pleased with Amy (she was the one who brought Willow to him in the first place) and Amy already (inadvertantly) did the Warren thing. Not to mention they're both dead (well, Rack looked dead.)

Adam, however, was presumably buried intact in the old Initiative compound. And it seemed like all he lost was a power source. Replacing that shouldn't be much of a challenge for Amy.
Yeah, I'm betting on Adam too since he wasn't so much killed as de-activated, and considerable portions of him aren't biodegradable. Plus he's so Amy's type.
Thanks for posting the AICN review WindTheFrog, I was tearing my hair out yesterday trying to find a review so people could chat about it.

Oh and a big oh. Comic Book Resources has an eleven page preview for issue 2 so I've added that to the subject line so people who couldn't get it at their comic book shop can at least read half of it.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=10211
LOL. I guess Buffy/Xander makes sense if incests your sort of thing. Yuck, I really dislike what this pairing represents all around. There's no way hooking them up isn't going to come off as somewhat preachy and condescending towards women for always choosing "the wrong guy" over the all-around stalwart and true good guy who's love was staring you right in the face, but ZOMG you were just too blinded by large foreheads and stick-uppy hair or cheekbones and abs, to see it! See girls? Buffy learned the error of her ways! Now follow her lead and go hook up with your best friend whom you've never ever ever EVER felt the slightest bit of a attraction for prior to reading the Buffy S8 comics! =P Very feminist. *rolls eyes and gags*

[ edited by AcidBath on 2007-04-05 07:51 ]
AcidBath, it was a magically induced dream. Ummm. Maybe you overreacted a bit.

Seriously! What is up with the ire?

[ edited by TamaraC on 2007-04-05 08:16 ]
TamaraC, did you not read the part where I said I know that Joss might be toying with us? No need to explain that it was just a dream. Call it overreacting, but I just don't like the thought of this validating a certain creepy faction of fans (mostly male) who seems to think Buffy owes Xander the Everyman her vagina. Even though I'm a Spike/Buffy fan, I would rather she end up with Angel. *shrugs*

[ edited by AcidBath on 2007-04-05 08:50 ]
Amy's boyfriend may just be a zombie like the ones she had attacking the castle, it would explain the general's disgust and there'd have to be corpses down in the Sunnydale crater.
I like the idea of Amy's boyfriend being Adam, but I wonder how they met or even how she knew of him? I think the better bet might be Rack or Warren, but then again maybe Amy met Adam in the crater, who knows. Although its probably someone we havent thought of yet, like possibly Ethan Rayne or even Jonathon.

So I really am the only one who laughed when Dawn took a bath in the lake? I thought that was really funny, for some reason!!
AcidBath, you're coming over very aggressive in your posts. I think you might want to tone it down.
My mother offically thinks I'm insane due to the terrified screams I was making while reading the whole Buffy/Xander scariness. I hope to God that isn't the direction Joss in going in.

On the other hand, it does kinda of make sense. And for those that decry incest, I have two words for you: Cordelia and Connor.

Okay, so technically that was three words. ;)
jerryst3161-You are so not alone, I think it's a hoot too, though I'm not sure why it strikes me as quite so funny. ("How big is she?" "She's so big that...")
Re Amy: given Amy's ability with the glamour, her boyfriend may not be whoever he seems to be at first.
Oh, this is so much fun.
I think AcidBath has hit the nail on its head re Buffy/Xander. Of course Joss had Fred fall in love with Wes after years of indifference and that storyline did not work for me either.
Am I the only one getting an "error 404 page not found", on the first link?
Count me in with those pleasantly surprised with the hints of B/X in issue #2 - even if it is all just dream-stuff currently. We should all know by now that dreams in the BtVS-verse usually have... *ahem*... layers. And the aspect of the 'true-love' kiss and its (purposefully) almost-vague/rule-bending criteria is intriguing, with the whole "passionate love", but Buffy not needing to be "in-love" deal. I'm not even gonna guess on who gives it to her, though. The anticipation has me curious, but still patient.

The "incest" argument that so many anti-B/X-ers seem to latch onto never made sense to me. Sure, they were/are very close best friends, but some of the best relationships evolve out of long-term bonding like that. And - to me - the "Restless" dream stuff that references Buffy in the sandbox calling Xander 'big brother' always seemed to represent Xander being afraid or resigned to the idea that Buffy only saw him that way (it was his dream/nightmare). It sort of pushed him into quelling those romantic notions for her. Buffy's dream/nightmare in this issue seems to be about her fear of hurting/losing the most constant/reliable/loyal person in her life, should a romantic relationship turn bad. And with how the dream started vs. how it ended, it almost appeared to be a good, "fun" dream that devolved when Amy entered her room and cast the spell, before trying to kill her. A sex dream-turned nightmare-of death. That's how I saw it, anyway.

Regardless of what goes down, though, I'll still enjoy what we get. I agree that the coat-wearing mystery man in Buffy's dream is probably a red herring for both Spike and Angel - feels like something Joss would pull. And while I never ever wanted to see the Spike/Buffy stuff, I generally enjoyed his development as an interesting character over the last few seasons of the show. That said, I'm glad the character rights to him and Angel are held by IDW, and that their usage in this season of issues is strictly limited. The original scoobies should be the primary focus to get us back on track, not the Spike/Buffy show as so much of seasons six and seven came to be. I'd like to think that the "long way home" could very well refer to this original "family" trying to get back to a place before things fell apart so badly - friendship-wise - in season seven.
On an almost related news, I just received by email Dark Horse's solicitation for July, weirdly there was no solicitation description for "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer #5".

I expect to see the complete lowdown I received online somewhere sometime today.

Whedon related stuff are as follow:

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER OMNIBUS VOLUME 2
SCOTT LOBDELL (W), FABIAN NICIEZA (W), CHRISTOPHER GOLDEN (W), DOUG PETRIE (W), JAMES MARSTERS (W), DAN BRERETON (W), ANDI WATSON (W), JEFF MATSUDA (P)CLIFF RICHARDS (P), BRIAN HORTON (P), RYAN SOOK (P), LUKE ROSS (P), WILL CONRAD (I),SANDU FLOREA (I), RICK KETCHAM (I), GUY MAJOR (C), DAVE STEWART (C), and More!
On sale Sept. 12
FC, 296 pages
$24.95
TPB, 6" x 9"
This second volume of our Buffy omnibus series collects many of the best Buffy comics to see print. As we follow the newly chosen Slayer from Los Angeles to Sunnydale and through her parents' divorce with Dawn in tow the souled vampire Angel makes his first appearance and the not-so-souled Spike and Drusilla cleave a bloody path toward the West Coast. This collection includes the critically acclaimed graphic novel Ring of Fire and the in-series "A Stake to the Heart", and reflects the Season One to Season Three timeline of the cult-hit TV series. A fitting companion to Joss Whedon's comics-based relaunch of the show.

SERENITY LUNCH BOX
On sale Sept. 16
8" x 7" x 3 3/4"
$17.99

Joss Wheden's blockbuster Serenity has staying power. This powerful space adventure doesn't want to end, so why should it?
In examining the rich and cohesive world of Serenity, we've designed a special lunch box. With the Serenity logo in brilliant litho-printed color on one side, and the iconic image from "Fruity Oaty Bar"? commercial on the other, bordered by the exotic intergalactic currency created for the film, this handsome lunch box is an insider's dream come true.
This is part of a continuing program of officially licensed Serenity items from Dark Horse, so watch this space for more new releases.

Lots of fairy tale elements in this comic, giant Dawn, Buffy dreaming she's allowed wishes, Buffy being asleep until she's kissed by true love. Oh, and a castle:)

I'm sure I'm wrong and Ben is Glory but I still think Dawn's bigness and her concern that Buffy still doesn't 'see' her and Buffy's dream curse that can only be resolved by the kiss are in fact both about the same thing....Buffy's emotional state. The dream seems to be exactly what Xander claims Kenny did to Dawn, it's manifesting Buffy's internal blah de blah. And her blahs seem to be still about her fears about herself. She's afraid sex with her will hurt, she's afraid of the darkness(her sexuality?), she makes a wish that she doesn't fall and the thing that saves her...a huge monster full of fire that seems to have crusified her and then sets her aflame.(Again, could be wrong but doesn't any of this call to mind Chosen and some plot points that were left hanging?)

And the kiss isn't standard fairy tale issue, it's not about one true love, she just needs to be kissed by someone who wants to kiss her passionately. It's not about Xander, Spike or Angel..it's about Buffy(again). The curse's resolution is small scale. She needs to accept that loving her doesn't need to be about death and hurt and BIG emotion. She's very capable of the small scale now.

And Willow may be floating but she's not wearing manly boots, I'm guessing the boots in the first issue belonged to Spike and that it's Spike she's dreaming about. Sure the 'my love' sounds off...but so didn't Buffy saying 'oh balls'.

Like Arabchick, I have a major crush on comic Xander, and I could sooo see B/X here. I just think that Joss is once again using a ship(ships...remember Angel hasn't shown up yet)to illustrate something about Buffy.(Like, she can love anyone she wants to, have sex with anyone she wants to and she doesn't have to worry about losing them...or swearing undying love for them.)
I'm getting the error 404 message too. As far as B/X goes, I just stared at the bottom of page 13 (I think it was) going "Jeezus, this guy knows how to write!" And being all amazed at how Joss can adapt to the different media and his ability to pace his stories according to the structures of episodic TV, film, and comics. And then I thought how I juiced I was at the idea of finding out how this B/X thing came to be and then I thought "I should turn the page now." Lo and behold it was all a dream, and hey, that works too.

I'm thinking Adam for Amy's boyfriend for reasons mentioned above. If B/X were to happen I wouldn't find it incestuous, but at the same time I in no way felt Buffy owed any man anything (That's not entirely true, I did think she took Riley a bit for granted and I wanted to see Parker get vamped so Buffy could give him that stake in the heart she owed him). Not to digress too much but I thought Fred/Wes was a relationship waiting to happen--they seemed like a great match to me.

Anyway, Joss has his Buffy engine revved up and I'm along for the ride (in the car part attached to engine, that is)!
On an almost related news, I just received by email Dark Horse's solicitation for July, weirdly there was no solicitation description for "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer #5".


In the letter page of issue 2,Scott Allie said there would be a month hiatus between issue 4,the conclusion of the first arc and the standalone issue 5.It's to give the various artists some extra time to give their best work.So it looks like we won't get a issue in July.It's the first of the various skip months we'll be getting between arcs.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-04-05 15:56 ]
... The curse's resolution is small scale. She needs to accept that loving her doesn't need to be about death and hurt and BIG emotion. She's very capable of the small scale now...

... I just think that Joss is once again using a ship(ships...remember Angel hasn't shown up yet)to illustrate something about Buffy. (Like, she can love anyone she wants to, have sex with anyone she wants to and she doesn't have to worry about losing them...or swearing undying love for them.)


Totally feeling you on this summation, ramses 2. I can easily see the overall message of Buffy coming to terms that her love life - and image of self-worth - need not be so "life and death" or epically star-crossed all the time. She may have an opportunity to be a regular woman, "relating" to/with whoever she feels comfortable. Thus, the possibilty of B/X seeming accessible while not totally out of place.

[ edited by clarkkent179 on 2007-04-05 15:25 ]
Oh I want a 'Serenity' lunch box!
I agree that the floating feet in issue #1 were not the same as Willow floating in at the end of issue #2 (no manly boots and no long black coat). And personally I had no trouble realizing that the silly hair guy was Andrew, who else could it have been?

Jerryst3161 I love your idea of Jonathan! Oh I hope it is Jonathan that Amy resurrected!
Buffyfanatic...I didn't know we were skipping a month. That just sucks. A month of wait is already killing me. Two months wait? Not acceptable at all.
AICN is having technical difficultlies at the moment hence the 404 error.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/32178

Two months wait? Not acceptable at all.


I'll write y'all a fan fic. So epic in scope, it'll will knock your socks off.

Or slightly more fun, during the hiatus months we could read Buffy season 8 fan fics written by fellow posters. We could do something over at Whedonesque.org if people are interested. It would pass the time nicely.
The wait is killer for me, as well. Plus, as someone new to the medium, I'm not used to those few filler pages at the end of the issues, so both times I've gotten to the last panel thinking I still had a few more pages of Buffy goodness to go. Yesterday I was reading issue two sitting in a tiny little chair at a tiny little table in the kids' section of the local library while my son was running around taking all Elmo-related items off the shelves and I might have audibly cursed when I realized it was all over for another month.
Must confess, I've never seen Buffy and Xander as brother and sister, but very close best friends after all these years. That relationship could develop into something more.

Though whatever the case is for them, I believe that the dream/nightmare Buffy is in will tell us about where she is at now. I'm looking forward to that. It's great Joss seems to be getting into what makes the characters tick so soon. Love it.
Simon,
Big yes to the posters fan fic page. Fun idea.
"The original scoobies should be the primary focus to get us back on track, not the Spike/Buffy show as so much of seasons six and seven came to be. I'd like to think that the "long way home" could very well refer to this original "family" trying to get back to a place before things fell apart so badly - friendship-wise - in season seven."

Man oh man Clarkent, that would simply make my day, I dont really care if Buffy is with Xander honestly, if its done right and both are happy then Im cool with it either way, but I agree focusing on the scoobies and getting back to that family dynamic would be wonderful. I once said that I would pay cash money to see the scoobs sitting around and talking, and I really would do that.

You know what this comic has reminded me of? The love I used to have for Buffy and Xander and Dawn and these characters, its good times, no negative thoughts, just plain old love for these four characters, so I really do get to laugh out loud at Dawn for bathing in a freaking lake (And Toast right there with you buddy--I have no idea why its funny, its just the thought that makes me absolutely chuckle) and hope that Willow just beats the crap out of Amy. And as usual Buffy herself just rocks so there that is...

"Jerryst3161 I love your idea of Jonathan! Oh I hope it is Jonathan that Amy resurrected!"

He *was* killed on a mystical seal and buried in the school, thats all I am saying...
Amy's "boyfriend" is sounding more and more like Adam to me. At first I thought, coming from Joss that meant it was a mislead and it would turn out to be someone totally different. But it makes sense that if he thought Adam was a letdown as a villain, he might use this as a chance to fix that. And we were promised an "old enemy" and Amy just didn't seem to me to fill that role - she was never Buffy's enemy per se, it was all about her and Willow.

But this being Joss, just to be on the safe side, I'm still putting a side bet on Clem.
I don't know, I almost feel like after having tried to kill or urged the killing of most of Buffy's other boyfriends, maybe Xander doesn't really 'deserve' to win the prize he's worked for since 'Welcome To The Hellmouth'. I still haven't forgiven him for "Willow said 'kick his ass'." Pretty much ever since then, I haven't been much of a Xan-fan. I can enjoy him in small doses, but I'd really like to avoid seeing him as Buffy's mate. And not just because of my own prejudices, but I just don't see them as a good fit.

But I don't think Joss will go that way. Not just because it would probably upset most of the fans(cuz I just can't believe that a majority of fans are B/X shippers, and I think some of us still miss Anya and how she complemented Xander) but because Joss rarely goes with the obvious. And maybe there won't even be a love interest. I mean, maybe Buffy just misses the sex right now, because she gets all the comfort and friendship and companionship with Xander. (Aww, poor Xander, he might just be *that* friend.)

But there will probably be *some* kind of love interest. It would kind of be nice to see that Buffy is capable of truly romantically loving someone other than Angel, and sustaining some kind of relationship(not too smoothly though, we do luvs our drama!). I'm kind of done with seeing the men moon after Queen Buff, and her giving them scraps of her heart or body. (Which is why I actually did like that Riley moved on and found a perfect match.)

(Wow, could I use more parentheses?)
I think I want Mystery Boyfriend to be Adam for the sole purpose of seeing Andrew's reaction to meeting a magical demon cyborg. Poor little geek missed out on all the robots on the show.
Just want to point out that some of us saw 'the Spike and Buffy show' and the estrangement between the scoobies as part of Buffy's tumultuous relationship with being a Slayer and not an ill planned step away from 'track'. The track needed to be stepped from....it's there in season 1 and every season thereafter, Buffy needed to come to terms with being the slayer.

You think you're seeing a big happy family or the story moving towards that(I too love that everyone is 'coming home') but I'm not seeing 'the happy'. Buffy and Dawn are estranged. Giles sounds all forbody. Buffy is once again in a position where she's unable to help because of her issues. And for better or worse, Buffy is going to have to grapple with those darn ships(and her sexuality) that some parts of fandom don't want her to address. And I bet as soon as she does....there will be more issues to deal with. Like Willow dealing with Amy. I do agree we'll see the core four...I'm just not so sure that the core four will be so happy for long. As for family dynamics? I'm probably the only fan that saw Chosen's core 4 dynamics as very representative of growing up. You love these people, they're your family, they really don't know you.(And yet they kinda do)
I'll agree with other statements that the comics do remind me of earlier times. Some parts of the last two seasons were really hard to watch for me, and I spent a good portion of the time being pissed at the core Scoobies. So reading the comics is kind of like a breath of fresh air in a way. It makes me remember why I fell in love with these characters.

And while I am in no way a B/X shipper, I can see Joss doing it. Since when has he listened to us anyway? :) One aspect that might also be interesting is to see Buffy doing the pursuing for once. Most of the men in her life have been the ones drooling after her, so what if the shoe was on the other foot? I think it might help her gain some valuble perspective on her situation.

I would also hope that Dawn isn't strictly regulated to "little sister" status. Dawn either is or will be eighteen soon, and I think her character is capable of showing more maturity (not that she's extremely immature though).

I was worried that the comic format might limit some of the character's growth, but I can see now that it's just the opposite. I'm really excited about the course of things so far. And here's hoping that the suspense of the next month won't kill me.
I'm a fan who doesn't really want to see Buffy deal with ships. It's coming over rather coy. I hate coy.
alright....Buffy and Xander. please God no. that's all i'm saying. ok it's not, when i read "are you coming to bed?" i had to stop, look at the pictures, reread it, and do it all over again before moving on. thank the God that it was only a dream. I do not see Buffy and Xander together...at all. I too miss the heck out of Anya. she and Xander were so right for each other.

true love: am i the only one that remembers Spike in Chosen right before he "died?" Buffy grabbed his hand, told him she loved him, and he said, "No you don't, but thanks for saying it." it's SPIKE! he was more in love with Buffy than Riley was. Come on people, he almost killed DRU for Buffy. I'm guessing the one true love (whom buffy doesn't have to love back) is obviously Spike. which is why it probably won't be him......ya know how Joss is. too obvious.

Amy's boyfriend: I'm on board with the Adam thing. she could easily witch-up a life source for him. Rack or Jonathan would be okay too i guess, but please no Warren. please no. He killed my girl. and speaking of my girl's girl.....

Willow is back! oh yeah, watching the show down with Willow and Amy will be fun. maybe i'll get lucky and Amy will kill Kennedy in the mist of battle. here's hoping.
Add me to the Buffy/Xander= Ew/Yuck camp.
Just about as enjoyable as Cordy/Connor.

I'm actually getting to the point that I would prefer if Angel and Spike are not in this comic, based on the way things are going so far.

Turning Buffy into someone who has to BEG for Xander's sexual attention ("I can be gentle") demeans her and everyone who has truly loved her. Kinda gross.

Although to be honest, I haven't seen this issue yet, just read other's reviews, so I could be seeing it wrong.

But I guess it goes without saying that for everyone who is obsessed with the idea of living in the past with the "core four" there are others like me who really connected with Buffy through Spike's story and are not all that worked up about the "core four" idea at all.

To each their own. I will give the comics a look see, but luckily if I don't like the way the story is going, I will be perfectly content to stick to fan fic, not like if this were an actual show.

The comics I can ignore if I don't like. The show or a movie I couldn't.
Again, good post, ramses 2:
Just want to point out that some of us saw 'the Spike and Buffy show' and the estrangement between the scoobies as part of Buffy's tumultuous relationship with being a Slayer and not an ill planned step away from 'track'. The track needed to be stepped from....it's there in season 1 and every season thereafter, Buffy needed to come to terms with being the slayer.


I understand what you're saying. I agree that the storytelling was done well for the purpose it needed to serve - addressing some of the issues of darkness and isolation that come with being The Slayer. But my faint hope for where this season can take the scoobies - since Angel and Spike can't be major players, for logistical/financial reasons - is to a place where Buffy's gap/separation from the group is beginning to be closed/mended. It appears this has started with Xander, based on the first two issues, and will hopefully spread more with Willow showing back up. The sister-tension with Dawn will always be present, and her giant (attention-grabbing?) state is a nice - and literal - metaphor for their sibling issues. We just need to figure out how estranged Giles is.

You think you're seeing a big happy family or the story moving towards that(I too love that everyone is 'coming home') but I'm not seeing 'the happy'. Buffy and Dawn are estranged. Giles sounds all forbody. Buffy is once again in a position where she's unable to help because of her issues. And for better or worse, Buffy is going to have to grapple with those darn ships(and her sexuality) that some parts of fandom don't want her to address. And I bet as soon as she does....there will be more issues to deal with.


Again, I agree that right now - and for the immediate future - the family dynamic is anything but happy and a carefree. The very problems that pushed everyone apart prior to "Chosen" still need to be addressed, it seems. I just think this jumping-off point is a decent place to start rebuilding. Buffy will still deal with the inherent differences that make her a slayer (no longer 'The'), but should be at a place to realize she would never have made it this far without her friends and family to have her back, whether she's wanted them there or not.

As for family dynamics? I'm probably the only fan that saw Chosen's core 4 dynamics as very representative of growing up. You love these people, they're your family, they really don't know you.(And yet they kinda do


Fair enough. Perhaps with this season we can see them getting a chance to know each other all over again - who each of them are at this point, after all that has happened. And I'm not gonna hold my breath for any particular 'ship along the way, but the undertones of what is showing up so early are intriguing.
I do see them as having family dynamics. Which is why the idea of Buffy having sex with Xander, or Willow, or Giles, squicks me.
That really isn't how I see a positive re-connecting with one's family.
In issue 1, take a look at the face reflected in the Gov guy's helmet down in the hellmouth. I think that's Spike. Remember he returned in Angel incorporeally at first, maybe because his body was still in the hellmouth.

I think Xander in her dream represents her fear that she can never have a relationship with a regular guy (like non-drugged Riley) because of her slayer strength.

I also think (and hope, total Spuffy here) that the leather clad dream-guy is Spike. Amy thinks he'll turn on Buffy because of being trapped in the Hellmouth but she is so soooo wrong.

Also really looking forward to a Willow/Amy dust up. I smell power.

May have missed this in the Issue 1 discussions but is the Buffster wearing a Serenity tank top? I so want a lunch box.
Oh, I think some of these posts are getting a bit too close to shipper war comments- Xuffy, Spuffy, Bangel- careful, now. :-)

My sense is that Joss will not pain Buffy with any regular, for the simple reason that any pairing turns off some part of fandom. Just saying.
But Cmbackshane, Buffy has always dealt with ships. I think the trick is to see them for what they are and not to mistake any for the last/most perfect/ true love. But in the first two issues we've had Buffy discussing sex and dreaming about it, and that she's going to need to be kissed to get out of this mess. I'm not getting coy from the comics, this seems pretty in your face to me. With a twist to be sure, but there apparently has to be someone apparently in love with Buffy. I'm guessing that:

If it's Angel we get a resolution.(Somehow this kiss of true love but Buffy doesn't have to be smacks of storyline set up...Buffy will confess her feelings at the end of issue 4.)

But of course it could be Spike as well. Ties up the Chosen cliffhanger. Maybe sets up the stand alone issue...remember that Joss discussed how the comics would set up a Spike movie with some answers to Fray. So he doesn't have a movie, that doesn't mean he won't venture into that territory. Buffy realizing he's not dead, and not a dream could prove to be a artist's bonanza.

And yes, it could be Xander. If you look back to the series there always were shippy like B/X moments, very, very cozy and normal. They also seemed to be followed up by harsh reminders that Buffy wasn't 'normal'. It would be an interesting start to a new take on the story if normal guy awakens the slayer to action.

I do agree however that 'fence sitting' too long in this particular story could appear coy. Hey, I guess I'm a shipper but frankly I'm game for whomever helps tell the next step of Buffy's story.

Clarkkent, I think we see eye to eye(no Xander pun intended) on tons, I absolutely agree that the comics will see the scoobies become closer as family.(Even if Joss travels down the B/X trail)But saying that, I still think there's a real possibility that the dream that has Buffy pierced through both hands and feet(the same Christlike pose Spike has shown often) and then is set on fire may actually be more about Chosen then B/X. (But I'm not saying it's going to be spufferific)

[ edited by ramses 2 on 2007-04-05 18:11 ]
The Xander thing was misdirection, to make us go 'wait, what? Oh its a dream!'. He is a guy who is close to Buffy, and she is lacking in the sex, so its natural that he would show up in her dream as a partner. Hasn't everyone had a sex dream featuring a friend? Anyone?

And Amy's boyfriend is surely Warren. He is (was?) the tech guy and Amy requested a weapons lab for her boyfriend as part of the deal. The general's reaction to seeing him makes the most sense if he is looking at someone who has been flayed and burned. Not sure Adam was in that bad shape when Buffy killed him. Plus, he must have been removed when the Army shut down the initiative site.

However, my record trying to predict what Joss will do has always been spotty.

[ edited by EditorAl on 2007-04-05 18:23 ]
Clementine said:

In issue 1, take a look at the face reflected in the Gov guy's helmet down in the hellmouth. I think that's Spike.


I dug out issue 1 to look again, and I see a woman's features -- full lips, long hair. I still think it's Amy the Rat.

EditorAl said:

Amy requested a weapons lab for her boyfreind as part of the deal.


See, that's another thing that made me think it was Adam. I figured he'd want to fix himself up since cataract-eyed Buffy done broke his arm gun.
Speaking as a Spuffy, imo B/X is a fantastic idea, the best way to make the maximum people happy (or at least not unhappy). I'm all for it.

Though I'm struggling to learn how to enjoy reading comics, I have enjoyed the overall storyline. It's not that I'm a snob about comic books, I've just never got into them, but now I'm trying to get interested.
Reddygirl- I am the same way about comics. I had not read a comic since college in the late 80s. Fray was the first since then. I enjoyed them, but did not quite 'get' the medium. Now with X-Men, Runaways and Buffy out, I have finally learned how to really read them. It has led me to pick up others that I have enjoyed, like Y: The Last Man. Now I am getting my kids the comics for younger audiences (My son loves Spiderman, my daughter likes Scooby Doo).
Guys. the "incest" thing is just so not the case. I mean, even ignoring the fact that incest requires an actual direct genetic/family connection between sexual partners, Xander has always (and I mean ALWAYS) seen Buffy as something a hell of a lot different than a sister. Buffy might not have viewed Xander as anything more than a close friend but if that was to change then all it would be is the development of a close relationship into a sexual one. Incest has absolutely nothing to do with it and I'm not sure where everyone is getting the whole "ick factor" from.

Even the Cordelia/Connor thing seemed a little blown out of proportion at the time to me. Again, absolutely no blood ties between the two whatsoever and, from Connor's point of view, he only ever knew Cordy as a very hot woman he met as an adult. Even for Cordy the closest thing that can be said is that she knew Connor as a baby for a matter of weeks before she went away and he was taken by Holtz. Hardly a true mother/son relationship. The only issue I had with the relationship was how it got in the way of Angel and Cordy getting together. Always thought that those crazy kids would make it work.
oh yeah, i forgot......they mentioned Tara in 8.2. i was geekin' out so hard. that is all.
I love the idea that "the long way home" is talking about the road to bringng the core group back together again. And I think Buffy's "I miss the gang" in issue 1 points to that, too. But of course, as we all know, it could mean something completely different that we've never thought of.

And what about that symbol? Does anyone else think that it actually is a beautiful sunset? That would be so Whedon-ish for an off-hand remark to turn out to be right. I can just hear Buffy now: "I *told* you it was a sunset!" This would also fit into the post season-7 world where Buffy is the new Giles and therefore the one with the answers.

And what could the sunset represent? Well a sunset is the onset of the night, which is when the vamps and other baddies come out. And this would tie in to all the talk about darkness in the dream.

Does this make any sense at all?
Broken Soul, dare I say it...but IMO there are catch phrase slogans/arguments that each faction(mostly shippers) use to try and cut off other groups at the knees. Spike's a rapist, Angel's a pedophile and Buffy and Xander together would be incest. These labels/whatever are lobbed like bombs so that instead of thoughtful discussion the other party will be effectively embarrassed so much that they cannot quite enjoy the story the way they see it.
Very true, ramses 2. The Angel pedophile accusation doesn't hold much water with me, given I'm from the UK and Buffy was, as far as we are concerned here, a full year over the age of consent. Okay, they weren't having sex here in the UK but both legally and morally it is just a non-issue for us.

Don't even get me started with the "Spike is a rapist" issue. A girl has a violent sexual relationship with a soulless vampire for months, many times jumping his bones only minutes after telling him that she wasn't interested, and then expects him to understand the one time where she really isn't going to change her mind the second they start smashing up the furniture? Yeah, that's going to end well! Spike's actions were wrong but they weren't rape.

Okay, going way off topic now so before Simon steps in to remind me of that, I now return you to the topic at hand... ;)
Which is....Buffy and Xander wouldn't be incest :)
I liked the issue a lot. There seemed to be more content, though these things are just waaaaaay too short.

When I got to the X/B moment, all those comments that this was something Joss had, at one point, planned on doing came flooding back. I don't think I said "Oh no!" out loud, but I could have. I was already to the "I hope this is a dream." phase by the time I turned the page.

I never liked the X/B pair up for lots of reasons including that I have been in that position with guy friends most of my life. If it did not spark in the first few months of really getting to know them, it just didn't happen. And if the relationship happened anyway, it was hollow and doomed. Another reason is that popular entertainment usually goes down that road. If single men and women are friends long enough, the writers eventually just put them together romantically. I just find it tired.

I'm not a shipper so I think it is likely that any of them, Spike, Angel or Xander (Riley seems to have moved on) might be able to bring her out of her dream-state...IF Amy is telling the truth. Big if, IMO, unless I missed something that would compel her to be truthful. If she is not telling the truth, she could lead them on quite the merry chase down a memory lane full of men pointing fingers and saying "I knew you didn't really love her."

When it was indicated that one or both of the boys would show up in the next episode, I had this vision of Spike and Angel showing up together and both of them having to kiss her at the same time so that the other one would not be given the first shot at waking her up...that would probably please the Spangels as well. ;-)

Let's see. 1. I think the floaty guy in the black coat is a mislead because it is just too obvious/easy for it to be Angel or Spike. 2. I don't think anyone is talking technical incest in the case of B/X any more than that is what they would be meaning if they said the same thing about Buffy/Giles. They are just trying to express their gut emotional reaction. That does not happen to be one of my objections, but I can see why they feel that way. Oh, and 3. Jonathan was not buried in the school. The principal took him somewhere outdoors. It looked a lot more desert-like than urban. I am still desperately trying to come up with someone besides Adam that I think fits the bill on this one, but so far no luck.
I liked the issue a lot. There seemed to be more content, though these things are just waaaaaay too short.


Man, aren't they though! I may have squeaked out loud on the tube at the coming to bed line, and then again when his head fell off. I was so relieved when it was a dream!

Very impatient to see what happens next...
Can we get off all the I hate/I love 'shipper stuff and just talk about what an awesome comic we got from Joss and George? Shippy discussions always seem to lead to anger and badness, and I think we all have a lot to be really happy about now that we're getting fresh doses of BtVS every month. I'd rather bask in the joy with my fellow fen than rehash 10 year old ship debates. :)

One thing I really like about the Buffy comic is that unlike other comic series, I can imagine the actors reciting the dialogue as I'm reading, so the experience feels that much richer because I can almost hear the inflections SMG, Nick, Michelle, etc. would use in each scene.
I'm not seeing any real 'shippy' debate(full on fight...or even a Harmony/Xander slapfest) Saturn Girl. Maybe you can suggest other topics of discussion, perhaps the meaning behind Xander's PJ's vs dream Xander's uniform? Or what other wishes Buffy might have made during the dream? I'm trying, but so far Joss himself seems to be inviting shippy conversation and I'm not finding it so hostile.
I wouldn't say the conversations have been hostile, but reading comments like "I want to throw up" or "it feels like incest" in reference to a possible Buffy/Xander storyline isn't real pleasant, either. Those kinds of discussions are soooo old. Let's talk about all the new stuff!

As for another topic of discussion, I'm curious as to the meaning of the weird tattoo that turned up on the corpse in #1 and now the soldier with a Buffy hate-on in #2. Are they aligned with those knights of Byzantium that showed up in Season 5? We got another reminder this issue that Dawn was the key, so I think we're shaping up for another Dawn arc.
If you guys can (now and in future) continue talking about Buffyverse relationships the way you are doing in this thread now (i.e. as objectively as you possibly can and leaving room and respect for other people's interpretations), we (we the mods) are fine with it.
One thing I really like about the Buffy comic is that unlike other comic series, I can imagine the actors reciting the dialogue as I'm reading, so the experience feels that much richer because I can almost hear the inflections SMG, Nick, Michelle, etc. would use in each scene.


I agree with that, I can hear those voices, too. (With the exception of the "muppity odin" thing cause that just sounded more like Xander than Buffy.) So yeah, I'm enjoying these comics, kind of surprised I'm liking them so much. I don't really "get" comics, I prefer the richness of detail in the written word or the visual impact of television/movies and so comics have always seemed flat to me, a bit empty. These aren't, perhaps because I can hear the chracters speaking.

I loved Dawn taking a bath in the lake and Willow's entrance at the end.

And if Amy was telling the truth, I still think it could be Riley. His love for Buffy was true and I don't think he'd forget a first love like that, even if he has "moved on". It could also be Angel or Spike or even Xander, who always had a torch for Buffy. But I'm leaning toward Riley, just the same.

Oh, the knights of Byzantium! I didn't think of that. That'd be cool.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2007-04-05 21:03 ]
Thank you Caroline!

Sorethumb, Buffy's dream about the darkness seems more about herself, and while it's Xander who's telling her she's the dark right after she's popped his head off, everything after that....the wishing she won't fall, the monster who impales her in a sacrifical lamb manner, her recognizing said monster and then her being set on fire seem to be more about Buffy coming to terms with her emotional life after Chosen.

And Saturn Girl I agree with you about those comments. I don't think we're really heading for B/X but I do think to scoff at the possibility is to ignore a very real plausible way the story could have/might still go.

So we're watching season 5 again right?:) I definitely can see this shaping up for a Dawn arc, but I also agree with Sorethumb that it may be about the real dark, the night and all the badness to come. We may not get a total answer to Buffy=Fray, but I'm still holding out hope for Joss's thoughts on how a Buffy comic could lead to a Spike movie that linked to Fray.
Ramses 2,
I definitely agree that the darkness in the dream refers to Buffy. And not just her emotional state--we know from the series that the slayer herself has demonic origins, which is one of Buff's biggest fears. Multi-layeredness is the standard here. We all know that nothing is limited to being representative of only one thing. And as you say, it seems like something dark is fast approaching our Scoobies.
This is slightly off-topic (well, kinda), but does anyone know who the next arc is going to center on? It still takes some getting used to having the "mini-arcs" wrapped up in four issues.
From what I remember,the comics were going to have a loose tie-in to the various DVD movies but didn't Joss recently in one of his various interviews say that this tie-in or connection has now been abandoned for the comics since no movies are happening and he is doing something different here instead for season 8?

As for Fray,I remember back a year and a half ago in an interview on Chud,I think,that he said he was thinking about using the comics to start to move to the Fray future.I don't think that was as tied to the Spike movie or the other DVD movies as much as potentially the comics.

So I don't think the Buffy comics were going to lead into the Spike movie which would link to Fray but be more along the lines of the various DVD movies sort of happening alongside the comics with some tie-ins but not directly so they could stand on their own.

The potential lead in to Fray which at the time didn't sound like it was a set decision yet by Joss seemed more like it was going to be confined/linked to the comics more directly rather then the DVD movies.

Overall though it sounds like certain things have changed, been modified or ideas have been dropped now for these season 8 comics we are getting.I think we might get some Fray set up down the line maybe but I think things from the DVD movies won't really factor into season 8 so much now.The comic/DVD movies connections seem to be part of the lost ideas of the Buffyverse now.I expect canon Angel season 6 comics from IDW will be sort of the same deal and not the season 6 we would of gotten on-screen.

You know,there should be a book published about all the various aborted Buffyverse projects and what they would of entailed.Got a long enough list to do a book about.

-The Ripper BBC spin-off
-Buffy Animated
-The Faith spin-off,
-Angel season 6 on-screen
-The DVD/T.V. movies
-The orignal plans for these comics with Buffy/The Immortal together living in Rome and what the DVD movie tie-ins would of been.

This is slightly off-topic (well, kinda), but does anyone know who the next arc is going to center on? It still takes some getting used to having the "mini-arcs" wrapped up in four issues.
deepgirl187 | April 05, 22:34 CET


The next arc centers on Faith and begins in issue 6.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-04-05 22:44 ]
So I don't think the Buffy comics were going to lead into the Spike movie


From what I remember originally the comic book was going to lead directly into the DVD movies. But since they didn't happen, Joss had to adapt.
Agreed Sorethumb, that's why I think Dawn being a giant is both about Dawn and her relationship to Buffy as well as being about Buffy and her emotions.(Not to mention being about Dawn and the Thrisewise Kenny)

The image may be exactly as you state, a simple depiction of a sunset...and as you imply...so much, much more.
Don't even get me started with the "Spike is a rapist" issue. A girl has a violent sexual relationship with a soulless vampire for months, many times jumping his bones only minutes after telling him that she wasn't interested, and then expects him to understand the one time where she really isn't going to change her mind the second they start smashing up the furniture? Yeah, that's going to end well! Spike's actions were wrong but they weren't rape.

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, but the only reason it isn't rape was because he didn't succeed. Spike's actions in Seeing Red DO count as attempted rape. It doesn't matter what his previous relationship with Buffy was.

Sorry for bringing it up, but I couldn't just let that go uncommented on. Please return to discussing the awesomeness of the comic.
Come on now, you can't really do the 'Let me have the last word and don't discuss it anymore' bit. I'm pretty sure only the mods can do that! :~)
Ok, I could be mistaken but weren't the "floating" feet in episode one shown in the daylight? Wouldn't that rule out Spike and Dracula? As well as any other vampires?
Come on now, you can't really do the 'Let me have the last word and don't discuss it anymore' bit. I'm pretty sure only the mods can do that! :~)

Oh, I wasn't trying to... just meant that I'm not trying to start an angry flame war or anything, especially one that has nothing to do with the topic of the original post.
Well Lady Brick, when you start examining the story under the gaze of 'real life' they all start to look pretty darn creepy. Lots and lots of bad intent, good intent gone bad and plenty of rapers, murderers and whores. Man, the list of rapists alone is staggering...:)

And that's just our heroes.
I'm still a little confused as to when Buffy's conversation with Xander about Dawn ended and the dream began. Or was the conversation part of the dream, maybe a replay of an actual conversation?

I actually LIKED the drifting apart of the Scooby "family" (looks around warily for brickbats, sees none, continues). What impressed me most about Buffy was the emotional realism under the fantastic trappings. And since I don't know many people who are still best buds with the people they went to high school with, the gradual splintering due to lovers, differing roads being taken, blah blah maturity cakes felt true to me. I don't want them to grow together again. Or at least not like in high school. Doesn't happen that way.

[ edited by shambleau on 2007-04-05 23:58 ]
Shambleau,
I'm leaning toward the beginning of the dream being a replay of an actual conversation, since I think the Xander/Dawn conversation actually happened and that Xander would have discussed it with Buffy. But yeah, the line between dream and reality is definitely very vague here.

And I certainly see where you're coming from when you say that the Scoobies growing apart makes it more realistic. But I still want to see them reunited. I guess a little vicarious wish-fulfillment would be nice. And see, there's those wishes again:) And plus, while I've had several of my old high school friendships go up in flames, there are also several that are still going strong. I still have a couple of Xanders (though not nearly as sexy as scruffy, eye-patched, duckie-pajamas Xander was in this issue--WOW!):)
Well Lady Brick, when you start examining the story under the gaze of 'real life' they all start to look pretty darn creepy.

Of course. Fictional characters in general are always doing things that most people get away with in real life. It's what makes them entertaining. It's also what allows writers to make statements about society without actually hurting real people.

The thing is, IN the context of the story, Spike's actions were attempted rape. They were referred to multiple times as such. Spike's own actions would indicate he shares that assessment.

Don't get me wrong, Spike is quite possibly my favorite character in the Buffyverse. He has a fascinating arc. But what happened in Seeing Red shouldn't just be written off as "just part of a story." It's clearly meant to have resonance in a very real world sense. And I found that having someone brush it off the way people brush off similar incidents in the real world to be profoundly disturbing.
Well, any sexual involvement amongst Buffy Xander and Willow in any combo would inevitably have an infnatile aspect, given the direction their friendships have taken. But the other hurdle, Buffy and Xander know too much about each other's exes...so I'd foresee some too-juicy-for-comfort arguments in their future.

If thsi is August '04, Dawn should eb ehading for ehr senior year in high school, so I don't quite grasp the Berkelyr emark. (Okay I know it's a good-sized city and maybe Dawn was suppsoed to be at a prep school there, still I get the wrong impression.)

And I'm less judgemental about making AMy so villainous, since htye've establsihed she's doen the EMpress Carlota thing already anyhow so she's at worst Guilty but Mentally Ill if not NGBROI.

And Buffy broke Adam's Polgara skewer, not his gun.
I don't "brush off" Spike's actions in "Seeing Red"...but I don't see them as attempted rape...they were foolish, misguided, horribly wrong...but he truly thought, really believed, because of what Dawn told him, among other things, that somehow, if they just could somehow resume their intense physical relationship, that things could somehow be right.

He was wrong, of course, terribly. But he wasn't trying to *rape* Buffy, which entails much more than sexual activity, he was trying to get them back together again. When he realized how grievously misshapen his actions were, he engaged in a massive fit of self-loathing...not usually the reaction of an attempted rapist.

Repeat: not an excuse, but an explanation. My take, at any rate.
Lady Brick said:
"And I found that having someone brush it off the way people brush off similar incidents in the real world to be profoundly disturbing."

This is exactly what I was arguing, in this fandom if you don't like spuffy you say the above. If you dislike bangel you point out how profoundly disturbed you are that fans aren't repelled by Angel watching a lollipop sucking Buffy. Hate B/X? Be terribly disturbed that fans aren't squicked by the incest vibe.

No one simply dislikes a shippy story, we're all profoundly disturbed by each other's morals.
Oh noes. I think this thread will soon make baby Jesus cry. And the Great Muppety Odin, too...
I'm tired of hot potatoes (like how evil season 6 and 7 are or the AR/Non AR in Seeing Red) arising in Buffy threads just because people felt they had to say it for no apparent reason.

Here's a good idea. You can always email each other or take else where. So don't piss on this doorstep. (That was OTT even for me - apologies).

[ edited by Simon on 2007-04-06 01:22 ]
Eh, sorry, not a shipper in the least. I think both the Spike and Angel relationships worked very well in the series. They had very different dynamics and happened at very different points in Buffy's life. They're both completely valid parts of the story.

My issue is more with making excuses for a man trying to force himself on a woman, no matter who they are. I mean, this is a show where the mission statement is female empowerment. It doesn't matter what the man's intention is. It was blatantly portrayed by the writers as attempted rape. In the case of Spike, it was clearly linked to the fact he didn't have a soul at the time. I'm not sure why anyone would argue anything else.

One of the things I liked about Buffy was the interjection of the real world into the the fantasy and the metaphors. It was used very sparingly (Joyce's death, Spike assaulting Buffy, the shooting of Buffy and Tara) but very powerfully. Some of these incidents were resolved by the fantasy elements of the show, some weren't. But there was always a very real sense of "this isn't the way things are supposed to work" when the metaphors were stripped away. And I think it does the story a disservice to ignore that.

It's too early to see if there will be anything similarly "real" in the comics, but I'm looking forward to finding out.
Right fair enough, didn't seen my comment. So back to season 8 discussion. And who that floaty bloke is.

Also I think issue 5 will be a Joyce centered issue. But that's my gut instinct more anything.
Simon...you said you would write us some fanfic that will knock our socks off during the comic dry spell? I'm going to hold you to that. Two months wait is unimaginable at this point. I can barely stand the thought of waiting 4 weeks.
Does this make anyone else seriously miss the series? I already missed it but this is almost torture. What I wouldn't give to see some of these comic scenes played out by the actors on the screen.
EditorAl, thanks for the encouragement. I think it will sort of like learning to love opera. In my teens I never would have believed I could become a person who loves opera the way I do now.

As for Amy's boyfriend, I would love it to be Ethan.
Lady Brick: "My issue is more with making excuses for a man trying to force himself on a woman, no matter who they are."

Bloody hell, I believe I said, "Not an excuse, but an explanation."

Not an excuse, okay? An explanation, in the context of the drama. Not a validation of behaviour, okay?
So, how about those Dodgers? Pretty cool huh, with the baseball and the hitting and the losing?

And Simon, its a Joyce and Jenny centered episode, how could your gut miss that? :)
I thought the important ship here is Amy's, and I am coming to think it must be Adam: everyone who sees Adam would be grossed out by the whole part man, part machine, part green monster thing... not to mention the big gaping hole (poor skinned little Warren could never be as intimidatingly off-putting).
Though I'm not a shipper, if forced to choose a pairing, I'd say Andrew & Adam.

Andrew: You're an unholy pairing of the blackest of the black arts and secret...est of government technology. Just like Coldstone from Gargoyles.
Adam: I am like a popular overpriced brand of ice cream?
Andrew: Cyborgs are so much better than ice cream.

(Just bein' silly.)
Xander is not in love with Buffy or otherwise he would have kissed her already to help deal with the hordes of zombies. Buffy is their leader and as seen with the beginning of the issue (hehe... I almost typed episode) clearly a lot better fighter than any of them. Xander would have gone straight to kissing Buffy before ordering around any of the other slayers. I think that's why he was asking about friendship-love, as that's what he and Buffy have.

What would be interesting, is if the Scoobie gang have to call up Spiker and Angel to try to wake up Buffy. Only to find neither of them able to wake her up with a kiss. Which sort of sweeps the board clean and allows Spike and Angel to exit stage left, to be dealt with in the Angel comics. Joss said he would use those character sparingly and this situation would give them a small cameo, while at the same time writing them out of the series for now.
What would be interesting, is if the Scoobie gang have to call up Spiker and Angel to try to wake up Buffy. Only to find neither of them able to wake her up with a kiss

And then the fandom explodes...!!! :~P
And Simon, its a Joyce and Jenny centered episode, how could your gut miss that? :)


Heh. But in all seriousness, it could be a Buffy and Joyce themed issue. The line in the first issue about Buffy missing her mom made me wonder if Joss intends for this to addressed in full at a later date.

Guesss we'll know this time next month when the solicitation info for August comes out.
Who can wake Buffy up? My guess is that it won't be anyone we expect. Thus I'm more interested in questions like: if army-man has that tattoo on his chest, was the force-fielded castle an army set-up, or does army-man have divided loyalties? I'd assume the latter. If the symbol links to the Big Bad in someway then it'd be really interesting to have the slayers and co. trying to avoid the army whilst fighting the key evil only to find that that evil had a stronghold within the army.

My other thoughts on the comic:

So the collective noun for slayers is passel? (See the inside cover 'catch up' text.) I googled it and it just seems to be an alternate form of parcel and can be used to describe a group of indeterminate size. I feel it could lead to entertaining puns along 'gift-wrapped pointiness' lines!

There is nothing funnier than Buffy's, 'It gets EXPONENTIALY prefixy'!!!

Dawn is the Loch-ness monster?

Hurrah for ariel Willow. (Sorry, couldn't resist).
If all those hellmouth deaths were mystical (and we know Jonathan's and Warren's deaths were mystical, too) Amy's boyfriend could really be anyone, what with her powers of glamour, and all that. She could be making whoever it is look ghastly. But I was just thinking that those army guys might have been pretty appalled to see that Amy had hooked up with a Giant Snake. I jus' miss the Mayor.

ArielWillow:I love Giant Dawnie, Lady of the Lake, the New Nessie, whatever. She's pretty exponential herself.

[ edited by toast on 2007-04-06 14:16 ]
I don't know that Jonathan's and Warren's deaths could be considered mystical. Human beings took a knife and a bullet and forced them into two human bodies. One was inspired to do that by mystical means the other did it by mystical means, but they were still humans killing other humans with non mystical objects.
True, newcj, see your point, I guess those could go either way. What with the zombie action, it may not matter that much how the guy died. And there's always the outsider Giant Snake option. Though I do see I'm doing some major wishful thinking on that.
Reddygirl,

That's an excellent analogy. Different types of art have a certain 'code' that needs to be decifered to be appreciated. I saw Rigelleto a few months ago and had the same sort of breakthrough. I finally felt like I got the medium of Opera. You have to first get past the preconceived ideas (i.e. comics books are for kids or opera is highbrow) and then you can really appreciate these forms.

And I hadn't thought of Ethan, that would cool. I still am thinking Warren, but would love to see a return of Ethan (perhaps tied to the folks with the 'beautiful sunset' markings). He was taken away by the Army, so could have conceivably converted the general to whatever scheme he was planning.

Toast and newcj- Willow showed that the dead could be brought back, perhaps Amy is powerful enough to have done that with Warren. he would be the perfect vehicle for her to go after the Scoobies.
Reddygirl, Editor Al,: Funny that opera should be twice-mentioned in this context. I had a similar experience when dragged to Verdi's Don Carlo many moons ago, and was thoroughly converted.

It is also sort of like each medium requires a certain kind of suspending of disbelief in order to get the particular powerful experience it offers, maybe with some transcendent realities? Like-people don't sing when they talk, there aren't any literal demons running around-etc., but if you can just put that stuff aside a minute...wow.

[ edited by toast on 2007-04-06 15:20 ]
Exactly Toast. By transcending the confines of reality, they capture something essential about reality. They (comics and opera, and the best TV) capture a deeper emotional reality. I suspect that this is what makes Buffy (show and comic) resonate so much with we fans and why it appeals to such a wide range of people.
newcj;Warren wasn't killed by a bullet, thsat was purely a torture device. He alive when Willow telekinesed his skin of (listen for his yelp) and in fact may have just been "shocky" rather than clinically dead when she flamed him
Toast and Reddygirl, you are putting your fingers on a very interesting truth about all artforms, not just comic books and opera: They must be learned, like a new language. They only seem "natural" and "intuitive" after you have learned their codes, or put more simply, the way they communicate. Even something as seemingly straightforward and accessible as a conventional Hollywood movie is actually a set of codes that is anything but straightforward and accessible to a complete neophyte. I'm always amazed to watch my nearly 4-year-old son trying to track what's going on in the Hollywood movies he watches. Scene changes, for example, are utterly confusing (where did everybody go?). It's quite instructive.
That is interesting about the opera and comics analogy. My mom was an opera singer so I was raised around opera. Even so, I remember the first times I really connected with what was happening on stage. Looking back on them, they always seem more like, so this is what it is *supposed* to be like, moments. Maybe that is the experience I am starting to have with comics, I don't know. Time will tell. ...And it may take a while cause at least with opera you don't have to wait a month between each act. ;-)

EditorAl,Willow showed the the dead who died *by mystical means* could be brought back. When she tryed to bring back Tara, it was made clear the magiks she had at her command would not raise those who had been killed by non-majical means.

DaddyCatALSO, yeah, I guess. I haven't watched that scene as carefully as others because I cannot watch that kind of stuff. I may have only watched it once, actually, so I can't get too specific in my aimless wondering about whether if he was "cured" of the mystical fire death, he would still die by the bullet wound no matter whether or not the flaying could be undone. Ick and yuck. I'm stopping there and conceding anything anyone wants to put forth about it. (shiver)
My first "I get it" moment with opera was Turandot. I had loved a lot of arias from different operas, but seeing that was the first time all the dots were connected and I fell in love with the art form. Hopefully the Buffy comics will do the trick, too.

Toast, EditorAl, 1starbucktown, great posts. Old Hollywood movies do have a code that has to be cracked. The Hays code made sure another code had to be developed to suggest taboo subjects. A man lighting a woman's cigarette was a sign the couple had had sex. And the audience at the time understood that.
I liked this issue a lot, especially the Giant Dawn scene. I like the way changes of scene are depicted in the panels and dialogue. It has a really believable pace to it. And the way the dream sequence starts out realistic and gets more and more zany-weird was really fun.

I can't think of a better page to find out I was wrong about the "true love" not needing to be romantic than a page where an undead Scottish army is climbing the castle walls and Xander is wearing ducky pajamas.

I couldn't go to the comic store until late yesterday. Sadly they were out of Jo Chen covers, but when I asked if they had any of those left, I was informed that the copy I was holding was all they had left. They said they've ordered more, which was good to hear.
Yeah, what you said, too,1starbuckstown. And although there is some innate resistance to learning the new form (I come from a family of classical musicians, too, newcj but pooh-poohed opera for years, missing the point entirely), there is alot of pleasure to be had in learning to "get" the new one. ..what with the "aha!" moments and all.
And being a visual arts type by nature, I am loving the comic books-to look at, read, handle. Nice.
1starbuckstown, I am having the same experiences with my kids (4 and 6). My son was envious of my new found interest in comics, so I bought he and my daughter some of the Marvel Spiderman comics for younger kids. It took them a couple of issues to really be able to follow the action, but they are now hooked. They had the same experience when my wife showed them a video of the Pacific Northwest Ballet Company's Nutcracker. After a couple of viewings, they really got the way the story was told through music and dance.
One of the pleasures of the Buffy comic is learning to read Comic (book). There's something wonderful about the way the designers take full advantage of the physical medium of the book itself, how the act of turning a page becomes the functional equivalent of a theatrical pause or a cinematic edit, depending on what's required. Even the lettering, which one might naively assume is of no great importance, is, in fact, of great importance to giving voice to the characters. How perfect is the tiny text, captured in the smaller speech balloon, for rendering Andrew's "from a friend, I heard that" pathetic lie. That neat little trick with the lettering (and, of course, the writing) practically channeled Tom Lenk. I know for the comic-book afficionados, what I'm describing is beyond obvious, but to a newbie, it's a real treat.
When all these things- the text, the design, the drawing, the layout, memory of the characters created by live actors in the past- come together, the experience of them can be sort of hyperreal, because of having so many different types of components. I think comics have kind of an inherently dream-like quality anyway. A treat, as are your comments.
One more new posted story and this thread will slip into the archives. I have enjoyed the discussion. This is a great community and I will lurk less and post more in the future.
Now here is another interesting thing about opera and the Whedonverse. My mother is an opera person. That is her most preferred art form. She has liked BtVS and Firefly when I have showed them to her, but the only series that I have ever seen her watching of her own volition was Angel. Thinking about it at the time, I realized that Angel was the most operatic of the series. Separately, I also realized that Angel was very comic-superhero-like when I heard it discussed by comics fans. So does that mean comics is a natural alternative art form for my mother?

EditorAl, good idea. ;-)
newcj. sounds like your mother is a good candidate for comic-book conversion.
Just an idea that occured to me that I would post before this post goes off the main page:

It's all Xanders dream.

Heavy military overtones
Unrequited love for Buffy
Big giant dawn taking a bath but he is all brotherly.
trying to decide what love is the right love for buffy (the whole " kiss" scene)
Buffy says "Muppity Oden?" Xander maybe. Buffy saying it is a
hard sell.

yep, it's all Xander.
New theory on Amy's boyfriend.
It's the Cheese Guy!

And can anyone help me out with Amy's "twisted sister" allusion. Xander answers it with "No, but I hate you" (or similarly, I don't have the book with me). Doesn't make sense to me.
Sorry, barboo I already suggested the Cheese Man on the thread about issue 1. At least I think that was the thread. Be careful, it got people started making some really cheesy jokes and theories.

I am assuming it is a pun on the band Twisted Sister, but I could be wrong.
Well I honestly think its going to be Adam - everything fits. But wouldn't it be cool if it were the cheese man?

So I still don't get why Xander would answer "No but I hate you."
OK, so late to the party that i'm actually that guy that turns up the following weekend by mistake in full fancy dress when you're having a quiet dinner with the in-laws but I only just got a chance to read 8.2 ...

Great, great issue. I felt like some of the dialogue wasn't quite as spot on the character's voices as Issue 1 BUT the story is moving along very nicely and it had all the trademark Whedon wit. Andrew's 'likeness' confused me briefly until I read a little bit more of his dialogue, then it became very him, very quickly.

Hmm, not just zombies (are we using the Zed word ? ;) but Highland Scots Zombies ? The Slayers could be in trouble, lucky Willow turned up I reckon (and Joss wasn't kidding when he said she got a great entrance).

What matters is that it possibly doesn't matter at all since its a dream

I dunno, "Little Miss Muffet", "Counting down from 730", we see a lot of important stuff in Buffy dreams. I have a suspicion about the "Scottish Lint" line of Robot (?) Xander's head but can't get past McLint or MacLint ('Son of Lint' ? 'Return of the Son of Lint' ? 'Bride of Lint' ? ;-). Course, it could just be random Cheese-man-ness but in a comic, where dialogue is precious, it seems less likely. Loved the playful structure of it though, sort of like the start of 'Serenity'. And the head coming off is a potential clue about Warren (who built robots) and Adam (who was one, sorta). Also, thinking about it, "Don't lose your head" was a phrase in 'Highlander', about a Scottish Immortal and Macleod means 'Son of Claudius' (a Roman emperor, Immortal, Rome, see ?). Giant Dawn's potential 'subconscious whammy' could be another Warren hint ('The Killer in Me'). Hmm, maybe multiply cluey. Or maybe not at all. Very Foucalt's Pendulous ;).

Buffy/Xander would be weird to me BUT regardlesss of that, it was a fantastic "Oh you are so NOT going there Whedon, surely ?" out-of-left-field moment. Great 'facing page' writing. On the surface I think it basically just shows how much Buffy needs to get laid (i.e. that she's, even subconsciously, seeing Xander in that way).

And horrible as it was, impaled Buffy's hurried, "New wish, new wish" was also so very funny ;).

Interesting comments about 'reading' different media and what EditorAl among others points out shows that comics are not in any way a lesser medium when done well, just different. And since it's germane this seems like a good time for my quarterly pimping of Scott McCloud's excellent 'Understanding Comics'. If you want to really 'get' the medium I don't know of many better starting points.

(I get nothing from said pimpage, BTW, wish I bloody did ;).

(and Jonathan/Rack don't seem to mesh with the need for a 'weapons lab' in issue 1, they're both magic guys. Plus, in Scotland we only have one "freakin' lake" - probably due to a cartographical typo, so what Dawn amusingly bathes in is almost definitely a "freakin' loch" ;)
Since there is definite flirtation between Xander and that other Slayer(Renee?) clearly, Buffy is having a premonition dream. Renee is actually evil and Xander will lose his head over her and things will go badly.;)
Well, it could happen.
I loved Willow's entrance right down to her quoting Giles. That entrance of Giles' was my favourite moment in that season and I loved that season.
barboo Try it with Xander starting to laugh at Amy's "joke" and then stopping himself with the reminder that he cannot enjoy the joke because he hates Amy.

so what Dawn amusingly bathes in is almost definitely a "freakin' loch"

...and all I could think was Brrrrrrrr.

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