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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other 'til it makes you quiver."
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May 20 2007

Let's Watch A Girl Get Beaten To Death. This is not my blog, but I don’t have a blog, or a space, and I’d like to be heard for a bit.

Last month seventeen year old Dua Khalil was pulled into a crowd of young men, some of them (the instigators) family, who then kicked and stoned her to death. This is an example of the breath-taking oxymoron “honor killing”, in which a family member (almost always female) is murdered for some religious or ethical transgression. Dua Khalil, who was of the Yazidi faith, had been seen in the company of a Sunni Muslim, and possibly suspected of having married him or converted. That she was torturously murdered for this is not, in fact, a particularly uncommon story. But now you can watch the action up close on CNN. Because as the girl was on the ground trying to get up, her face nothing but red, the few in the group of more than twenty men who were not busy kicking her and hurling stones at her were filming the event with their camera-phones.

There were security officers standing outside the area doing nothing, but the footage of the murder was taken – by more than one phone – from the front row. Which means whoever shot it did so not to record the horror of the event, but to commemorate it. To share it. Because it was cool.

I could start a rant about the level to which we have become desensitized to violence, about the evils of the voyeuristic digital world in which everything is shown and everything is game, but honestly, it’s been said. And I certainly have no jingoistic cultural agenda. I like to think that in America this would be considered unbearably appalling, that Kitty Genovese is still remembered, that we are more evolved. But coincidentally, right before I stumbled on this vid I watched the trailer for “Captivity”.

A few of you may know that I took public exception to the billboard campaign for this film, which showed a concise narrative of the kidnapping, torture and murder of a sexy young woman. I wanted to see if the film was perhaps more substantial (especially given the fact that it was directed by “The Killing Fields” Roland Joffe) than the exploitive ad campaign had painted it. The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is “I’m sorry”.

“I’m sorry.”

What is wrong with women?

I mean wrong. Physically. Spiritually. Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

How did more than half the people in the world come out incorrectly? I have spent a good part of my life trying to do that math, and I’m no closer to a viable equation. And I have yet to find a culture that doesn’t buy into it. Women’s inferiority – in fact, their malevolence -- is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere they’re sporting burkhas. I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards, and not just the ones for horror movies. Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished. (Objectification: another tangential rant avoided.) And the logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are, at the very least, expendable.

I try to think how we got here. The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women’s behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? In the case of this upcoming torture-porn, fictional. In the case of Dua Khalil, mundanely, unthinkably real. And both available for your viewing pleasure.

It’s safe to say that I’ve snapped. That something broke, like one of those robots you can conquer with a logical conundrum. All my life I’ve looked at this faulty equation, trying to understand, and I’ve shorted out. I don’t pretend to be a great guy; I know really really well about objectification, trust me. And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning). I just think there is the staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted. If we were all told the sky was evil, or at best a little embarrassing, and we ought not look at it, wouldn’t that tradition eventually fall apart? (I was going to use ‘trees’ as my example, but at the rate we’re getting rid of them I’m pretty sure we really do think they’re evil. See how all rants become one?)

Now those of you who frequent this site are, in my wildly biased opinion, fairly evolved. You may hear nothing new here. You may be way ahead of me. But I can’t contain my despair, for Dua Khalil, for humanity, for the world we’re shaping. Those of you who have followed the link I set up know that it doesn’t bring you to a video of a murder. It brings you to a place of sanity, of people who have never stopped asking the question of what is wrong with this world and have set about trying to change the answer. Because it’s no longer enough to be a decent person. It’s no longer enough to shake our heads and make concerned grimaces at the news. True enlightened activism is the only thing that can save humanity from itself. I’ve always had a bent towards apocalyptic fiction, and I’m beginning to understand why. I look and I see the earth in flames. Her face was nothing but red.

All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause – there are few unworthy ones. And nudge yourself past the brink of tacit support to action. Once a month, once a year, or just once. If you can’t think of what to do, there is this handy link. Even just learning enough about a subject so you can speak against an opponent eloquently makes you an unusual personage. Start with that. Any one of you would have cried out, would have intervened, had you been in that crowd in Bashiqa. Well thanks to digital technology, you’re all in it now.

I have never had any faith in humanity. But I will give us props on this: if we can evolve, invent and theorize our way into the technologically magical, culturally diverse and artistically magnificent race we are and still get people to buy the idiotic idea that half of us are inferior, we’re pretty amazing. Let our next sleight of hand be to make that myth disappear.

The sky isn’t evil. Try looking up.

Thanks for posting about this, Joss. It really is a disgrace to see how women are still treated unfairly in today's society, especially when they make up 50% of the population, as you've said.

And I think I speak for all of us when I say you're more than welcome to post like this here whenever you feel the need. If it means bringing attention to an important issue, bring it on.

[ edited by Thomas on 2007-05-20 05:39 ]
Jumping way ahead, I hope/pray/suspect that it is slowly becoming time again for the ascendancy of the feminine, and I suspect that the matriarch will have much more compassion for the opposite gender than has the patriarch.

But we all need to help assist pave the way. Joss' is again inviting some considered discussion - the first stone (so to speak) on a long path.
Oh joss, my heart is hurting right now, my ventricles are about to burst.

Thank you.
Thank you for bring such a sad story to our attention. I know stuff like this happens all the time all around the world and it makes me ashamed that people treat the other half of the species like this. The stories I have read about not just women but people in general doing inhumane things to each other really disgust me, and I feel powerless. There is so much inhuamnity(maybe it is an aspect of humanity itself) that is very easy to go into despair.

But at the same time as you said, there are people working on changing that. For me its not just the women, its injustice in general to each other to the planet that just boils my blood. Once again thank you for this, maybe I can do something. Or rather I can do something and should go and do it.
Thanks, Joss.

I know you're a student of film. I'd like to know what your take of the depiction of honor killings in the John Ford's Monument Valley films, particularly STAGECOACH and THE SEARCHERS. I think Ford reminds us not to think of the behavior as something foreign and external, but a force within us all that we must reconcile.

In other words, misogyny isn't a genetic default, and it's not the product of a barbarian culture, but something widespread and pernicious, in each of us to an extent.

Thanks for being the voice of reason, seeing as it is in such short supply sometimes.

[ edited by Chirp on 2007-05-20 05:59 ]
Say it again for those not listening.
All I can say is thank you. most of us ('us' being me) are so blind.
Here is a link to the CNN story. A link to the video is in the page. I had to force myself through it.

This is a horror movie. Period.

Too many emotions. I’m sad. And angry. Hulk smash angry.
We ARE out there. I go to a school that believes that women can make a difference and teaches us how to survive in this patriarchal society. I definitely understand the feeling of loneliness when your passions fall on deaf ears, but please know that the world is changing. Genders are blurring, societies are coming together, and women are learning how to take back the power. Information is coming faster, and bloggers are taking back the media. It's not fast but it is there. I believe that I can make a difference in the world and no one, man, woman, transgenered, NO ONE will ever make me feel inferior.

You are not the only one out there who believes that this society is going to pieces, but still has the hope to believe in change. Rest assured that the story WILL be distributed to a very angry population of women who tend to over-analyze things especially during finals.

Sania D.

Ps. Crying relieves the stress, brownies help with the constant need for anything chocolate, hugging someone who loves you makes you feel like you are worth something, and not completely inadequate.
You're right... just saying something isn't enough. But it's sad when people aren't willing or don't think to do even that much. So thank you for always being willing to speak and for pushing others to do that and much more.
It is only natural and human to snap when confronted with this kind of horror, unfortunately it seems to have been going on since history began (and I haven't really felt that humans have 'evolved' all that much over the last 3,000 years).
Your post made me cry, Joss; twice. First because you have the heart and mind to snap at this kind of violence (it is appalling how many people can ignore it), and second because you believe the people here are evolved enough to respond. I hope we don't let you down. You know that everyone here is working to raise money for Equality Now. It is never enough.
When my mother always looks at the news on the "War against Terrorism" and War stories in general she always comments that her theory to save the world would be to drop estrogen bombs we drop instead of nuclear bombs.

I always wonder how much of our War like cultre is created due to the hunting and gathering mentality of man or whether it is the instututions that we have created that are to blame, but I guess those instituions are created by men so the point is rather moot (chicken or egg sort of stuff).

I do wonder though, that even if more women were able to get into the political arena today, whether it would mean real change or if they would be doomed to follow the instututions and rules we have put in place already. I would like to think that real change would be made but I suspect we would see much of the same.

I think this change cannot come from above it has to come from the bottom and grow like a wild fire, it has to come by keeping the issue vocal until enough people scream NO More! Only then can we look to dismantle the institutions of men and create institutions of prople.

Thanks Joss for the thought provoking post I hope it starts something even if it were to change the opinions of a few.
The problem is you can never reach the final few in power over the many. Evil men kill innocent women because it's far more empowering to them than say attacking an animal that can't speak out. Men in such cultures are taught by centuries of religion and politics to repress matriarchy to maintain their power. You can't change the men, you have to change their environment, their core beliefs (good luck with that, they'll never watch Buffy).

The crimes you protest are absolutely horrible and some of worst to bear, but I would point out the far more subtle crimes that breed and enforce this kind of thinking until it spills over into every aspect of a society. There are still many "developed" and "civil" nations where women are not allowed to even vote (hints: Kuwait, Saudia Arabia) Women have even died there not from attacks but from male ambulance crews who refuse or are restrained by family from taking an injured woman to the hospital. It's "easy" to be horrified by men beating a woman to death being permitted. How about instead being horrified by the mentality of a society that doesn't allow women to vote (or drive a car).
Pliny Thank's for the link but do we really need it? I don't like the idea of giving CNN more visits to their page to view something that we should be encouraging people not to view. It just send the wrong message to CNN that people will come to spectate this sort of thing and give them ratings.
This feels too important for me to write something that would be (for me) too hasty, and yet I want to respond right away, to support you, to honor this girl and your outpouring - to say I hear you, I hear this. I must just say for now that I've snapped and shorted over this one, often, and yet something like this, like poor Dua Khalil, can always make me snap again... (while, Tonya, my heart is also breaking, again.)

"I don’t pretend to be a great guy; I know really really well about objectification, trust me."

So does everyone, so do we all, even women themselves, from doing it as well as having it done to them. It may feel horrible to realize it, but it may also be the way in - our shared and secret corruption or something - which means we can somehow understand this inequity inside, (we are the objectifier as well as the objectified) which is also what is needed to move on, to evolve... if we can.

"I have never had any faith in humanity."

Ahh, but to truly not have any, I think, means you wouldn't post this. Not to be all Pollyanna, but it is the saving grace of your darkest work, and part of what draws us to you and your creations.

I'll write more later, but right now I think I have to decide if it's somehow my duty, my responsibility or not, to go looking for and watch this video. I don't want to, but I'm not sure that's enough...

Thank you, Joss.
There is nothing wrong with women. The real problem is any man who thinks he can define them before they can define themselves. I can see why Joss is upset by this "honor killing" story, nd why someone would be cruel enough to tape it and spread it on the internet. It's the type of terrorism President Bush isn't concerned with. I just hope that eventually we, meaning men, can be better than this..and that women make sure of it.
Phew. Now that I'm a bit recovered from reading that incredibly moving piece from Joss, here's what I've done lately. In late 2006, Fox television, headed by that giant intellect known as Rupert Murdoch, was planning to air the O.J. Simpson "Special" interview with Judith Regan (since fired from HarperCollins Publishing) about "his" book, If I Did It, describing how, if he "had" murdered Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman, he would have done it.

All I can tell you is that I saw bloody, rare meat RED. I wrote three e-mails; one to Leslie Oren at Fox, another to Fox at a generic email address to keep my bases covered, one to my local affiliate in San Diego, and a succinct, snail mail letter to Judith Regan in New York. Then I wrote two blogs on MySpace and sent out a bulletin urging people to boycott Fox. In my wildest dreams, I never thought I'd write a letter to another woman as I did to her, or that a woman could participate in such a horrible perpetration of pain on the Brown and Goldman families. But I can't say it pained me much at the time.

Apparently America has woken up to a greater extent than I thought with regard to this kind of shameful display that was going to be put on by a bunch of dirtbags after blood money. The outpouring of criticism leveled at Fox was stunning, stopping this filthy project in its tracks. Most of us seem to be done with ever seeing or hearing from this monumental monster, ever again.

Then when the story about the poster for Captivity was written here and The Huffington Post linked, I immediately went, read, copied Jill's suggested text and sent part of it with some of my own thoughts off to the MPAA.

Other than that, I think about injustice quite a bit and am embarrassed I haven't done yet, what I said I would do in the thread about Captivity, join and in some way, support the work of Equality Now.

Good thing I've got Joss to remind me and all of us how important their work is.

[ edited by Tonya J on 2007-05-20 06:42 ]
Thank you. <3

I watched the footage days ago and have had nightmares since. Something in me broke, too. Something that had lurked in the background as a theoretical horror became so real when I saw it that I can't undo it now. And worse, I can't comprehend it.

Your words keep me company and your plea for activism is echoed here.
I think back to the few brief years when I was particularly stupid and allowed someone who should have loved me treat me like garbage and let myself believe I deserved it. The only difference between me and the women you talked about is I live in a country with laws that protect me, where I am allowed to take a stand and say, "No more."

You're attention to the global situation, no matter who else has stood before you and spoken the same words, is relevant. Each time another person stands and says, "No more," it is relevant. Individually we make a difference, together we are force.
I don't want anything like this to ever happen to my daughter. Ever. It's time to change the world.
Hmm.

I believe men in various societies have tried to subdue women because of a simple sense of envy. Women control everything. They bare children. They control sex in society. Men may be physically "I can kick your ass!" stronger, but it's women who have the real power.

In terms of Captivity, I can't judge because I haven't seen it. I've found it interesting that people attack the "torture porn" sub-genre for its degradation of women when, in my experience, they generally focus on men. The main character of each Saw film is male. Our annoying protagonists in Hostel are men. Etc.

I can only defend fiction as just that -- fiction. If Captivity is truly 90 minutes of kidnapping, maiming, and murdering a defenseless woman, I would like to believe that audiences realize the gap between life and the screen. I was raised on horror; Halloween is the film that made me love film. But I can't watch numerous car crash/disaster videos that my friends point to on YouTube because I can't handle the real thing. It disgusts me.

I would hope others are the same.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2007-05-20 06:55 ]
Esprit de corps.

For anyone who has ever been inspired to fight the good fight--this is it.
My thoughts are with Dua Khalil's family and friends; the ones who cared about her anyway.

Sometimes I wonder how the human race has survived for so long...
Joss, thank you for writing so passionately and with such insight.


[ edited by Samantha on 2007-11-06 05:41 ]
I'm not sure how to feel about CNN and other news outlets showing the video. On the one hand, it's unquestionably horrifying and it's not something anyone should ever want to watch. On the other hand, every day more and more people are being killed in Iraq, and we as a society have become fairly numb to it all. When you only see the numbers, it can be hard to wrap your head around all of it. When you see something like this in pictures, or in this case a video, it's like a punch to the gut. The event becomes painfully real and, hopefully, leads to some sort of call to action.

Sadly, given how ratings-driven the cable news networks have become, I doubt CNN was looking for anything more than a ratings bump.
And why shouldn't we be encouraging people to view evidence that humanity has a very long way to go before we can call ourselves 'civilized,' Crypto?

I know my feelings drastically shifted after watching the video, from simple frustration and confusion at how this kind of unconscionable behaviour can keep happening to almost pure and blinding rage at how people can call themselves pious or devout when they violate one of the shared cornerstones of the three biggest monotheistic religions on the face of our planet: THOU...SHALT...NOT...KILL!!! Last time I checked, Yaweh/Jehovah/Allah got into a pow-wow with Moses and gave him 10 key rules of conduct, with the first one clearly stating that killing someone is an sin of the highest rank.

I will admit up front, in front of my peers and anyone else who wishes to read this, that I am not a perfect person and I have had unkind thoughts about the opposite sex when I have been angry or confused or sad. However...never once have I ever lashed out, used my generally greater size and strength or even threatened anyone of the female gender due to negative emotion. To do so would violate one of the deepest covenants I have made with myself and with others: to never use physical violence or let the threat of it ever cross my lips. To violate that covenant would fill me with such shame I don't know how I would properly cope, since I would have thrown away every piece of wisdom my mother has ever given me about how to conduct myself.

Know this, Joss...we stand ready to fight with everything we have against such things. We cannot and will not go quietly into this not-so-shiny night for we will not stomach another example of this kind of horror happening. Every penny raised on the date of your birth through the celebration of how voices united as one can do the supposedly impossible shall be a voice calling out to strike down the oppression of women...to vanquish hatred based on gender...to eradicate the ability for a human to even consider for a single moment doing harm to someone else simply because the intended victim is female.
That's really terrible that no one helped that girl.
What agonizes me in situations like this (beyond the agony that such acts exist in the world at all), where video of an unspeakably hideous event or act surfaces, is that I find myself wishing that there was only a finite amount of pain and suffering in the world.

That, somehow, were I to sit down and view it, some degree of the actual pain and suffering would be lessened. Shifted out of the act and broken into thousands or millions of much smaller pieces that everyone else could carry the burden of.

It's a completely nonsensical thing, because obviously the world doesn't function that way. It's a thought arising out of nothing more than the sheer depseration born of horror and powerlessness.

Watching it would not lessen anyone's real and actual pain and suffering. It would just create a different kind of pain and suffering for more people.

Is there a responsibility to do so anyway? I have no earthly idea.
I agree with the Kurdish official interviewed in the CNN report who said part of a solution is recruiting female police and security officers. There must also be enough woman lawyers, judges, and appointed and elected officials to reach a sort of tipping point. That's how, recently and incompletely, women in the West got legal protection against previously sanctioned violence. Misogyny doesn't end, but it gradually loses its coercive power, without which it's nothing.
I am reminded of Joss' speech to Equality Now last year where he eloquently answered the same question over and over again, "Why do you write such strong women characters?"

Particularly the part where he talks about his father and grandfather being two reasons for it - because they prized the wit and strength of the women in their lives. And as Joss says, they realised that recognising someone elses power does not diminish your own.

Thank you, Joss, for again speaking so eloquently about the issue - people's ignorance of what happens across the world sometimes continues to astound me, so every time and every place these issues are raised is a great thing.

Not sure I agree with the term "womb envy", though I see what you are getting at. Surely it's simply bad enough that men decided that their physical strength should be prized over everything a woman has to offer, simply because of her gender.
Joss, thanks for posting. This story hurts. I feel the need to go give my daughter a hug and a kiss and tell her that I love her and believe in her ability to help change the world. Unfortunately it's the middle of the night in my timezone so that will have to wait for morning. We're already going to your birthday bash in Denver next month and included an Equality Now donation when we bought tickets. For some strange reason, I feel the need to donate again, and again, and again. That won't make the tears stop flowing, but it might help change the world at little bit...

ETA: Just rewatched Joss' Equality Now speech. Made me feel better. Less tears, but still hurts...

[ edited by dcubed on 2007-05-20 08:08 ]
Preach it, brother Joss man. And keep preaching it. You express my feelings so very well. Keep preaching it until no one is asking the question any more. Men like you give me hope for good relations between our genders.
Joss...if ever you're on the streets of Los Angeles, and a random teenage blonde girl with green eye shadow wanders up to you and gives you a big hug...this is why.

Thank you. You're making this world a better place for me, my sister, and my whole generation. You're swell!
...and here in the US, we do it as well, albeit in more "polite" fashion. silly woman, you can not have autonomy over your body. why? because, first of all, we just like to keep you down, but also because WE know when life begins because we are oh so very religious and our FAITH is powerful. silly gender-different people, you are Less Than Us and do not deserve the rights that are naturally ours, given to us by Our Father. plus it just feels fun to say "faggot".

there seems to be a commonality underlying much of this hatred of The Other, be she a woman, a queer, a person of color, or--confusing and ironic--a person of another religion. and we better start figuring out how to evolve past it.
I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to watch this.
I'm not an ostrich, but there is so much pain and anger in the world at the moment, that I prefer to seek out acts of beauty and kindness instead.

Like your post, Joss.

The fact that this footage HAS caused such an uproar is itself a reason for hope. Let's not allow the horrible, ignorant and cruel actions of a small number of men destroy our faith and belief in the essential goodness of all mankind.

Let's teach our children to be kind to ALL others, regardless of sex, race or religion. (As a teacher, I am ever aware of the power that I hold over the young minds entrusted to me, even if only for a year of their lives. Not to go all Whitney on you.)

We need to be wise in electing leaders who will implement policies that don't allow or encourage such acts of hatred in the future.

And we can all encourage beauty and equality to spread via the arts, through film, and yes, television.

And Joss, I hope that you take some comfort in the fact that your own works have spread positive messages that have changed so many lives for the better.

And thank you for your eloquent, thought provoking and incredibly moving post.
I would say it's our responsibility as citizens of more enlightened nations to engage these people and force them to stop these dark age tactics. Write your statesmen and tell them what you think.

Individuals alone cannot stop this, we can't donate to charities and expect something to come of it. We must remove this aspect of their culture, and only a united group of nations can do that. We may not have evolved to a Vulcan level when it comes to gender equality, but we should not let our own insecurities on the matter prevent us from taking a stand on what is clearly a practice rooted in religious dogma.

In the past we have taken the responsibility to stop atrocities against people for no reason other than their skin color, sexual orientation, gender, and other factors. The Holocaust, and slavery in the southern states were things we fought against to make people more equal. It doesn't matter if we or our fellow countrymen are not the ones being tortured and killed, it is our responsibility to make cultures that are more backward than our own evolve at least to our level (again, we're not perfect, but stoning people is clearly evil).

Thank you Joss, for writing such a powerful post here in the Black, I'll make sure to link this to all my friends.

PS. all these mixed up feelings about how people are treated in places not here (in my safe neighborhood), brings me back to all the protesting I did in the early 90s against the child labor used to make our cheap products.... unfortunately that situation has only gotten worse as now nearly all of our products are manufactured in 3rd world countries, abusing the poverty of the area for slave labor, but we will speak no more of that.
Joss, that broke my heart to read. I've always highly respected you, and this post of yours cements that opinion.
There's nothing I love more than a call to action...

I just hope all the energy, enthusiasm, and willingness to fight to the bitter end I saw from Whedonites when it came to getting from Firefly to Serenity can be thrown at causes like these.

I was so thankful for all the Browncoats that pushed and shoved until someone let Joss do his thing and give us the BDM. But to be honest, sometimes, I see the amount of energy people put into getting the "signal out" for an awesome but finished TV show and think that these people are capable of so much more - I'd like to see all that energy directed to other places.

Stories are key to humanity, they pull us together, make us question ourselves, make us realise things about ourselves we couldn't just be told up front, and I really do think stories can help save the world. But sometimes we need to be shoved out the door of our story universes to affect the real one, directly. While we all fought for the Firefly cause for a while, stories aren't meant to be causes unto themselves, they're there to point us at the real causes we need to be fighting for.

And I love storytellers who have the guts to not just lead us there with their stories but also turn up and rant until we get of our collective arses and do something. Cos a collective arse is a powerful force.

BTW Joss I looked up at the sky and I saw a cloud shaped like a demonic octopus. So I'm not convinced.

[ edited by Swil on 2007-05-20 08:44 ]
I took a Women's Studies class this past semester because of you. I was one of two male students in there, and the other one was only there because his girlfriend made him take the class. It's so sad that more guys don't take Women's Studies. It impacts everyone, not just women.

Thanks for the inspiration. Thanks for making me see the world in a different light. Your shows have helped me to accept myself for who I am, to overcome my social problems, and to realize how the culture locks us into gender roles, and that this needs to change.

You've given me something to fight for. I want to do what you did: make brilliant television. I want to use the medium to try and change things for the better.

What an amazing post. I have such admiration for you, and I hope to see more of your thoughts in the future.
Let's teach our children to be kind to ALL others, regardless of sex, race or religion. (As a teacher, I am ever aware of the power that I hold over the young minds entrusted to me, even if only for a year of their lives. Not to go all Whitney on you.)

This isn't targeted to you, even though I'm quoting you. This is my reaction to teachers that I knew.

I went through a school system that was made up of people who thought that it was their responsibility to teach the horrors of racism and sexism to their students. When a teacher forced me to read books and write papers on important topics, I didn't reflect on the material so much as loathe being made to do work. I ended up associating the two in my mind. The school was so bad that I begged my parents to send me to a Jesuit high school where, surprisingly, politics and religion(!) were not pushed on the students.

The result was that I was completely indifferent to sexism until Joss showed me the softer side of feminism. When I read and watched Joss talk about gender equality, I finally felt like someone wasn't preaching to me. I know that he's not a fulltime activist, being that he's a movie maker/author by day, but I think that those are the kinds of messages that the majority, sideline-sitting population needs.

kevingann: Good for you, and that other guy? It's the same as I mentioned above, there's no better way to make people appreciate something than to make them do something they don't want to do.

[ edited by Caleb on 2007-05-20 09:12 ]

[ edited by Caleb on 2007-05-20 09:14 ]

[ edited by Caleb on 2007-05-20 09:17 ]

... how many edits can this board take?

[ edited by Caleb on 2007-05-20 09:18 ]
Thank you, Joss.
It hurts inside, reading this. Thank you Joss, for being a strong and eloquent voice of reason here. It is horrifying that these things happen in this world, and that it is even accepted in parts of it.
Right then, trying to express my thoughts with my own ineloquency(A word? Perhaps not.):

Thank you Joss. Thank you for sharing your wisdom; thank you for using your voice to speak out. Thank you for reminding each and every one of us through your work what it means, for both men and women, to be empowered and strong: to accept and embrace the strength of others. Thank you for being angry about this; thank you for packaging into simple words what so many of us struggle to say, words that we can then in turn repeat to others. Thank you for demanding that the world be better. And most of all, thank you to everyone else here who tries to make a difference.
Caleb: You hit the nail on the head. The way Joss discusses these issues is exactly how they need to be discussed. You never feel like Joss is preaching; you just feel like he is saying what needs to be said.
Like a few of the other people, I cannot watch the clip that Joss referred to above. That's not because I am weak-stomached. It's because I need to retain faith that people can and will change.

Caleb, you said, "I would say it's our responsibility as citizens of more enlightened nations to engage these people and force them to stop these dark age tactics."

I may be mis-reading that, but it comes across as being horribly patronising to me. I grew up in an Asian nation. The terms "enlightened nations" and "dark age tactics" quite frankly piss me off. I agree with what Joss says, but I don't think that you can force beliefs on to people of other nations. Look at what happened when G W Bush tried to force democratic beliefs on to Iraq. Contrary to what you believe, there are many women from my home who would be disgusted with your attitude. They would not view such people as "rescuers" but as decadent destroyers of their secure world.

You also said, "Individuals alone cannot stop this, we can't donate to charities and expect something to come of it. We must remove this aspect of their culture, and only a united group of nations can do that. We may not have evolved to a Vulcan level when it comes to gender equality, but we should not let our own insecurities on the matter prevent us from taking a stand on what is clearly a practice rooted in religious dogma."

It is clearly not something that is rooted in religious dogma. Look at the way that the Chinese and the North Koreans treat their women. They are communist (and by extension, mostly atheist). What about in Africa? It is not that simple.

I would say that donating to charities that help to empower women is as much a part of this process as getting the UN and international organisations to campaign for gender equality. High-minded ideals mean nothing to women unless there is a visible effect on the ground. For that to take place, both a grassroots and top-down approach must be simultaneously employed. It would be useless to get rights for women if they didn't know what it entitled them to, and how it would affect them. In fact, I would argue that grassroots charity work is far more important than writing to your local councilman about international affairs. If there is one thing that I learnt in Angel, misogyny and hatred will always exist, whether they are in institutionalised forms or not. Getting women to recognise their own power and individuality will combat internalised hatred, prejudice and discrimination simultaneously.

Thanks for writing that blog post, Joss. It means a lot to me as a Chinese woman trying to get her peers to see themselves as more than an extension of their man. It is a fight that I have taken up personally. I can frankly say that you helped through the work that you produced - the Buffy-watching girls of my generation are generally not as scared, as subservient as those of my mother's, and my grandmother's. Even if there is prejudice and institutionalised misogyny, we are making progress. This from a culture that not very long ago, had women bind their feet for aesthetic reasons.

So don't give up hope, or faith. There will always be horrors and misogyny in existence. We learn from Angel that we will keep fighting, simply because it's the right thing to do. I will keep doing what I can, and Joss, I'm sure that you'll keep doing what you can too. Because that's all that there is, and every little step of progress makes a whole lot of difference to the individual lives of girls.

/done with the pep-talky and preachifying
Caleb: You hit the nail on the head. The way Joss discusses these issues is exactly how they need to be discussed. You never feel like Joss is preaching; you just feel like he is saying what needs to be said.


Rule #3: You don't talk about Fight Club. ;-)
kevingann: Yeah, it's the same tactic I used to promote Serenity to my friends. They would ask about it, or I would bring it up, and instead of going all fan boy, I told them that it was a solid sci-fi movie with good action and comedy. I refrained from telling them that it is amazingly awesome and the best movie they'll ever see, and I didn't mention that Joss is bigger than the Beatles.

Edited: Beetles => Beatles, I've been calling them the Beetles this whole time and nobody corrected me :)

[ edited by Caleb on 2007-05-20 11:55 ]
I, like most people here, have been a big fan of Joss' since the early days of Buffy. I don't post here nearly enough, and to be honest I was first drawn to Whedonesque because I loved reading Joss' posts. Let's face it... the man creates amazing characters and has some of the best writing ever.

A big thank you to Joss for reminding me that he is , after all, still human *gasp* . Even though I can't bring myself to watch that video, I needed to read this. I was lucky enough to grow up with a strong mother who always taught me to respect all people equally. I forget sometimes that not everybody was lucky enough to have someone around who was that amazing.

I teach martial arts here in central Florida and I've been toying with the idea of getting some of the local schools together for some kind of big show, but couldn't really come up with a reason for it. Other than the fun of it. I feel like this is the perfect reason to bring all these schools and people together now. A fundraiser for Equality Now would go a long way towards getting the message out there that there really is a need for change in our world. I'm going to make a big push to pull this one together. I'll get in touch with the people from the org and see about getting flyers, posters.. anything they have available to help promote the group.

I know the other instructors share my feelings about teaching every female student how to take care of themselves if they ever need to fight. But I also know we all teach our students that woman always have the right to say no. It doesn't matter what the situation is, a woman should always be in control of their own lives.

Again, I wanted to send a public thank you to Joss for more than just giving me many years of great entertainment. I find I have a renewed enthusiasm for teaching Martial arts.
Oh and Caleb... it's "Beatles". Time for another edit? =)
Insane, illogical, misguided violence is growing in all areas of our lives. Women are hated for being women, religious people hated for being religious, cats hated for being cats. Violent acts carried out on all groups that don't conform to the wishes of those carrying out the violence. Either do as we do or you are meat for the floor.

I'm not one of those who is absolutely against violence in movies or on television. I've seen the Die Hard movies more often than I can count. Hell, if I was so against violence then both Buffy and Angel would be off my viewing list. Violence is a part of us and it has a place in the world whether we like it or not.

What has no place in the world is the pleasure of violence for the sake of violence, which is what we are discussing here. Whether that be in watching a movie that has no point other than to be as sick as it possibly can be, movies such as Captivity and Hostel where the violence is the only point, or in the use of violence against somebody who has simply chosen to live differently to you.

I have had to step into many a fight outside a rock club where a kid is getting beaten up just for daring to wear "emo" clothing and be seen by a bunch of brainless chavs who aren't happy to let him walk on by. In fact there are actually groups of them that choose to wait on street corners where they know young rockers will be leaving gigs just in the hope of catching one alone. Because they like to dress differently. It's a known fact that there are organized groups of football hooligans that go to the matches with the sole intent of starting trouble. No thought of watching the game.

If we can't control ourselves when it comes to differences in musical taste and football teams then what hope is there for us in matters of race, religion and gender? Do women ever stand a chance of being treated with respect when there are men out there that will kill you for wearing a Manchester United shirt?

By the way, thanks for posting this, Joss. Whilst I would hope that many of us here at Whedonesque are already intelligent and enlightened enough to know cultural sickness when we see it, hopefully your words just might open a few eyes to some ugly truths.
Excellent post, Joss. This world needs to wake up and realize both sexes should be treated with respect and dignity.

Unfortunately, honor killings in the Middle East are being replaced by a new horror: honor suicides. This seems to have a huge popularity in Turkey, where women who have "brought shame" to their families are actually given the unbelievable choice of killing themselves or their families will kill them. Imagine being handed a gun by a family member and being told, "Kill yourself or we'll do it for you." See, this way, it looks to the Western world as if Turkey's honor killings have declined, when in reality, women are still dying for the same reasons. It just appears as though they committed suicide, and therefore died of their own choice.

The current issue of Marie Claire (with Rebecca Romijn on the cover) has an excellent article on the whole honor suicide thing, for those interested in reading further.

I've actually lost some travel writing jobs because I've told the mags that I won't do puff travel pieces to countries where women are not treated as equals. I just can't in my right mind promote a country that treats women as though they have no rights.

SenseiJJ - I'm a journalist in Orlando. If you put together an EN charity event, drop me info on it and I'll help get the word out. :)
I'm not sure if it's womb envy though. The same people who victumise women are often those who victumise those, say, more intelligent than they are, those more stupid, those who are richer, poorer, hairy backed - or not, or just different in some way. Nevertheless it seems that paradox lurks for the civil minded, one must be intollerant of intollerance.
What is wrong with women?

God, thank you for simply. asking. this. question. I've wondered about this question too: why? Why is there such hate in our culture against women? Where does it come from and for what purpose?

Literally hours ago, I was thinking about porn (as you do) and how I personally, as a woman and a feminist, couldn't hate it even though sometimes it embodied things that are so terribly misogynistic and depressing. As a feminist, it's not the erotic I object to: it's the way the culture shapes eroticism into something ugly, something that feels (to me, a woman, at least) assaultive.

I don't know about the theory of men's jealousy of the female biological "superiority" -- frankly, I think it all devolves into a question of sex. Something in the male sex drive responds to violence. I'm not saying all men, or even most men, but the parts of men that are dangerous to women are sexual.

What do women fear: the rapist knocking you down in the street -- the boyfriend who smacks you -- the authority figure (boss, dad, teacher) who won't take no for an answer. Every women has had a moment in their life, probably several, where they felt in fear for their lives from a man, felt in danger, and there has been a tinge of the sexual; from serial killers to the guy on the group of men who feel entirely justified in beating a woman to death for being sexually impure, it's all about sex and death. Somehow they are linked in the male psyche, and some cultures mine it more than others. Those horror slasher movies are as much about sex as they are about the grotesque.

Of course, I could be talking so much shit. It's so strange to think -- sorry -- that a man gets it. Because really, mostly men don't. A great book I read on the subject is "The Gift of Fear" (Gavin de Becker) and there's a line that says it all: most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death. That's the gap we're talking about.

[ edited by dottikin on 2007-05-20 10:14 ]
Quick pop back in to say that I don't think anyone has to watch the clip and b!x, I really wish sharing the pain did lighten the load. I sat with myself for a while, and then I watched it... because as much as I am familiar with a certain kind or level of violence against women, I am also a white, privileged American WASP woman protected from much of the raw evil that the world manifests - including that which we perpetrate on other nations.

I don't wish to have those images in my heart-and-mind's library - but somehow I, who live in my books and movies and made-up world a great deal of the time - need to see and feel those things in a way that makes them real to me. Whatever the reasons they were originally taken and posted - which are varied and complex - they also served as a terrible reporting, much like the compulsive, thorough and boastful documentation of the Nazis has given us lasting and unforgettable images of the Holocaust.

For who I am, it was right for me to see this. Not sure I have any opinion on what anyone else should do - it seems such a personal decision.

I have re-posted Joss' post on my MySpace blog - I thought perhaps he would want as many people as possible to see it.

As always, I have turned to my beloved books when in need of solace and understanding:

"Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darknesses of other people." - Carl Jung

"We cannot change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses." - Carl Jung

"Understanding does not cure evil, but it is a definite help, inasmuch as one can cope with a comprehensible darkness." - Carl Jung

Just -- unbelievable, in so many ways. Joss, just when the world continues to shock and hurt me, you continue to amaze and move me. And, dude, gorramit, if anyplace in the world IS your blog, this is certainly it. *going to Equality Now website*

Also, ShadyLane -- the most frightening and sickening part is that this WAS her family who did this. There is no "family who cared for her" to have in your thoughts. Here's something to have in your thoughts instead, IMO -- this girl was my age, just about. Just a teenager, still in high school (of course, in her country -- possibly/probably not so much was she allowed to go to school). What would my life be like if I was living in that culture? I pray I would have had the heart and the mind and the guts to try to stop this insane torture if I had seen it. I pray I have the heart and mind and guts to do whatever I can to help others in my own life here in the States, every day.
I can't decide which direction to go. I am wholly against honor killings, and am saddened that these things come out of my culture. Thank you, Joss, for bringing this type of horrific event to our attention.

I was going to post about how the American News Media villifies Arabs by broadcasting this, but I'm not going to. What I read above my post, (with a couple exceptions) was not filled with hate toward the part of the world I call my home land, but of sympathy toward the young woman who died, and the others who share stories similar to hers, and activity that should be stopped once and for all.

I was going to tell the story of my cousin getting engaged while following old Muslim traditions, and how hearing about it made me cringe, but having seen it, well it turned out to be pretty cute. This was going to serve the purpose of describing how and why tradition stays alive. But its not needed.

I could tell you about my female cousin in Saudi Arabia that is a practicing Psychologist in a hospital and has both male and female patients, or my aunt who owns her own boutique in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. I could tell you about another female cousin who is a Dentist in Jordan to show to you that not all women give in to submission. The women of my generation, even in that part of the world, hold the majority of seats in universities and have professions. I am on my path to go to Medical School, and even though my aunts try to talk me into doing something easier, I won't give up just yet. This summer, I'll be going to Palestine with a volunteering team of Physicians to try and treat some diabetes, fix a handful of cleft palates, and maybe save the world.

There. I think I've said everything I meant to not say. Good night.
Wow. Just wow. I love you, Joss. I just fucking love you. You keep to amaze me with so much love and compassion and a mind wildly set on not accepting the unacceptable.

The main problem I see is that we women often enough buy into that hateful attitude and accept it as a fact - that something is indeed wrong with us. We can be so mysogynist against women who choose to give birth and raise children, because we find that life uncool.
I'm in the middle of recovering from that nonsense and what you wrote, Joss, jump-started another effort.

We can beat this. We really can. Just be yourself, you are one of the good guys out there. In the meantime, we try to be ourselves too. Girls. Women. Crones. Whatever it takes.
Arabchick, thank you so much for saying what you said. I didn't mean to be negative about all people in Muslim cultures, just those who think that honor killings are the way to go, or who think that women should not go to school and make choices about whether to have a career or not. Hell, I'm negative against people in American culture, or European culture, or Asian or African or Antarctican, who think it's OK to hate just because someone is different -- a different gender, a different sexual orientation, a different color, a different ability (or disability). Your Saudi cousins sound like they are great people who happen to be women, and I hope those women have great lives and careers helping others. I wish you every kind of success in medical school (and, are you still acting? acting success to you, too!), and you TOTALLY ROCK for your volunteering in Palestine! I hope that goes great, too, and I hope that you DO save the world! :-)
I had a little conversation with my doctor the other day about young women in the professions who are averse to identifying themselves as feminists. She is about the same age as I am, and works in a teaching hospital with lots of young women interns and residents, and did a little informal survey. She said a serious majority of them had no interest in women's issues at all. She got the same result talking to her 11 year old daughter's girl scout troop.

The blindness and,hell, ingratitude to those who went before them, making it possible for them to do what they do, is amazing to me. How can we make them realize that Dua Khalil is our sister, and we are not safe while she is not safe? It is heartening to read both your post, Joss, and the responses...to realize that there are people all over who really feel this, know that it's not over, and are willing to keep fighting.

[ edited by toast on 2007-05-20 11:34 ]
I may be mis-reading that, but it comes across as being horribly patronising to me. I grew up in an Asian nation. The terms "enlightened nations" and "dark age tactics" quite frankly piss me off.

Stoning someone to death is barbaric, and a practice I would expect from someone raised in a culture that isn't developed. That's why I used the term "Dark Ages." If someone thinks it's offensive to call the people in the video barbaric, or to suggest that those who are disgusted by it are (relatively) enlightened, I would say that they should be offended.

Now, if someone is offended because they are of the same race, they shouldn't be. I specifically did not bring race into this discussion because I am not linking race to culture. I also do not link country to culture. If you look at the United States, say 100 years ago, there were many distinct cultures, and some of those cultures took a more active role in lynch mobs, for example, than others.

It is clearly not something that is rooted in religious dogma. Look at the way that the Chinese and the North Koreans treat their women. They are communist (and by extension, mostly atheist). What about in Africa? It is not that simple.

You are correct. Religion often perpetuates ideas like these, but the religions themselves have to be born from somewhere, and I would say they come from man. While religion isn't the root cause, it is clear that it doesn't help. People have often used religion to give legitimacy to misogyny, and that is what has to be stopped.

Arabchick: it's interesting to read someone who is closer to it than New York. Being so far removed from foreign cultures that aren't Canadian or European, it's hard for me to put my mind there in order to make more founded opinions. I am glad that women are treated better where your family lives, and that the culture doesn't support heavily misogynistic practices. If my comments came off as being hate-filled, I want to assure you that that was not my intention, and neither was making a blanket statement about a group of people other than the group of people who thinks killing a woman is okay.
The blindness and,hell, ingratitude to those who went before them, making it possible for them to do what they do, is amazing to me. How can we make them realize that Dua Khalil is their sister, and they are not safe while she is not safe?

I actually find it quite positive that those women can go into those professions without being actively feminist. They can go on like it's NORMAL for a woman to study in those fields without having to point out that they are women and that those fields were once closed to women.

Dua Khalil is not their sister; they can live perfectly normal lives and not care about what happens to people in other countries. As we learned from "Earshot", people have enough of there own stuff going on. With so many issues available to care about, and so little time to actually do anything about any one of them, it's hard to blame people for apathy on issues which are so far removed from their lives.

Also, to suggest that they are ingrates for not caring about women's history is unfair to them. Remember, as time goes on, if things get better, you will need less and less feminists, and that's a good thing. I doubt we'd ever be able to completely get rid of the movement, but as women become more and more equal, there will be fewer battles to fight.

... wow, I think that's the most I've typed on a thread here, ever.
How dare you link this to race.

This is the media's idea that honour killings don't happen in western countries ALL THE TIME, in christian households, in middle class households who have internet access, inside toilets and every advantage poor uneducated people in the middle of nowhere dont' have. That MOST domestic violence is about honour in some form, whether religious or cultural, and that mostly it is covered up for that same honour by men and women for the same reasons the woman in the video died.

You want religious encouragement of violence against women? check your bible. ANY bible. The vast majority of christians will choose not to use it, just like the vast majority of Muslims CHOOSE NOT TO. But it's there if you need it, if you're insane, if you live in an area that encourages fundamentalism as a way of life. If you're a woman there's no answer to it and if you're a man there's a nice excuse for you.

The problem with videos like this is that people watch them and have an excuse to hate entire cultures, vast portions of a map.


I'm also very very tired of people who need visual evidence shoved in their faces of human rights issues in order to feel something. You got so desensitised to violence that you need video footage of the starving, the downtrodden and the dead before you'll give money to a cause? screw you. There is *no such thing* as compassion fatigue. It's an infinite resource, like love. And if you're truly too stupid to realise that death and destruction are BAD THINGS that need to be stopped *without the video*, screw you twice. And I guess that screws over every poor country that can't afford the mobile phones to tape it.

Secret Message to Joss: it took THIS to break you? You weren't paying attention.
support bacteria - it's the only culture some people have.
Caleb-Women's issues are absolutely not removed from any woman's life, and only someone who is not a woman could truly believe that. Everyone of those women has experienced some mysogyny in her life, and has been able to ignore it so far, because of good luck, location, money, or social status. It ain't gone, it stems from the same source, and you know what they say about those who forget history. Plus, they are now privileged and I think those of us who are privileged, owe.

[ edited by toast on 2007-05-20 12:23 ]
Thank you Joss, for those wonderfull words.

I share your despair.
I live in Israel, a country basically founded on bias. The hate of my people towards arabs is practicaly ingrained - and to top it off it's a mostly Chauvinist society. Just talking to people can make the top of my head burst.
I don't know how to battle racism, misogony, etc. I try to do is through my art, but it all seems so weak against the wall of hate. But these words are truly inspiring, and I'm gonna do my best to circulate this wonderful essay.

Again, thank you. You are a brother in the pacifist-arms in the good fight.
Thanks, Joss!

It's refreshing to know there are still people in this world who give a damn. You're inspirational.
I teach children, a lot of them don't have a good homelife, I hope that my words have the same power over them, can inspire them and show them that the world doesn't have to be a bad place.
Hey sansmercy, I realize this is a very emotional topic, but let's refrain from finger pointing and yelling quite so loudly. I won't ask a second time.
sansmercy, a large problem is that these types of murders are apparently legal or semi-legal in some areas.

Also, as you say, some people are very human-like (bastards!) and are affected by visuals more than other forms of media, so I can't decide whether you're saying this video is ultimately bad because it promotes racism, or if it's good since it gets the message through to thick headed people like Joss.

You got so desensitised to violence that you need video footage of the starving, the downtrodden and the dead before you'll give money to a cause?

Meh, the video didn't help on that front. I like my money the way it is, mine, and then some porn store owners.
edited to say Joss linked to EN.

[ edited by sansmercy on 2007-05-20 13:00 ]
toast: I'll take your word for it, and, in hopes to understand it, from now on, you can call me Loretta.
There is nothing wrong with women.


There is however a great deal wrong with certain aspects of many societies .

It's not an East/ West thing either . American gun culture sickens me just as much as any so called " honour killing" If videos had been around in the days of the lynch mobs that footage would doubtless have been on youTube . Recently there has been footage of a young gay male couple hanged for their " crime". And remember the Rodney King beating?

The upside is that crimes get recorded and exposed

The downside is that we become a society of bystanders and voyeurs waving our video phones when we could be doing something to help . And watching the footage on the TV or the internet with a decreasing sense of the real impact of what we are seeing.

We live in a world increasingly inured to violence and it's not just men oppressing women, how many times has footage from Northern Ireland shown us the results of "punishment beatings" based on religion? How many incidences of football violence, school shootings, queer bashing?

Violent death is always an outrage and it seems to me disingenuous to be more outraged if the victim is a woman . After all superior male body strength is hardly defence against an angry mob, or, indeed a bullet,


And by the way apologising in the face of unmerited violence is not a purely feminine trait . It's a hard wired survival instinct . Hell you'll even see it on the old Western films where the tough guy falls to his knees in the street and begs for mercy .

I have not seen nor shall I see this video

Yes something needs to be done but it needs to be done at all levels and starting out with the assumption that the violence and horror is a product of misogyny or womb envy isn't necessarily the best place to start.

Yes there is imbalance but it's not just gender based

And , believe it or not ,most people do not take it for granted or accept it.


Sorry if I sound ranty but women are not frail creatures to be protected . To imply this is in some way to diminish women , A woman beaten to death is a terrible thing , a man beaten to death is equally terrible and happens as frequently ,albeit with different " justification"


And boy do we need to sort our own societies out before we start pointing fingers at other cultures!

We need to be outraged but not because the victim in this case was a woman but because she was a human being . It's the same argument as was used before women gained the franchise . Some ( mostly male) campaigners wanted female suffrage on the grounds that women with the vote would be a civilising influence in politics . In fact women deserved the vote not because they were women but because they were an equal part of the society under governance

Sod feminism ... it's about humanism and the rights of every member of every society regardless of race gender, class, orientation, ability ,religious belief or the lack of such belief.


End of rant .

[ edited by debw on 2007-05-20 12:39 ]
Sansmercy, look before you rant. Joss linked to Equality Now.
I mean this totally for information and not to be snarky, sansmercy -- Joss did NOT link to the video. He linked to Equality Now.

ETA: Heh, if I am going to have the exact same thoughts as someone else, I am pleased to see it is Caroline. Sorry about the duplicate information.

[ edited by billz on 2007-05-20 13:18 ]
Hey Loretta, cute name, kind of old fashioned, but nice.
debw: Of course it is ultimately about humanism, but we have to understand, and fight the forces against it, and these include racism and sexism, among other things, including economic forces IMO. Yes, it is most important that we are all human, and it would be badder than bad to forget that...but you have to fight the fight on all fronts, and this is a biggie...involving as it does, an evil directed against a little over half of us humans.

[ edited by toast on 2007-05-20 12:58 ]
Bless me, I apologise wholeheartedly to poor Joss. I didn't click the link because it looks like it links to it - entirely my fault. :-D

I know most men are too busy being upset that they can't bear children and then beating their wives in frustration and jealousy to pay too much attention to where they link. Joss is clearly a highly evolved being.

Womb envy is such a burden on poor men. I blame women, for flaunting their tampon ads and suchlike in the face of mens terrible loss.

Really, womb envy. Brilliant deduction. Not economics or education or lack of power or cultural fear or any number of other possible reasons. No, in the end it all comes down to the fact that nice sensitive men want to make babies and have periods and people who can do that scare them. Okay.
I suggest you take your sarcasm somewhere not here.
It's things like this that make me think of the phrase

"Stop the world, I want to get off"
Joss Whedon, you may not be "a great guy", but you are a great man.

You do your gender proud.
This is the first thing I've read today, Joss, and it inspired, motivated and strengthened me to prepare for my next bout of (totally non-violent) hate-fighting. Thank you. Also: awesome essay-man-ship.
"SenseiJJ - I'm a journalist in Orlando. If you put together an EN charity event, drop me info on it and I'll help get the word out. :) "

zengrrl If I can get this off the ground, I promise I will let you know ! My school is in the Melbourne area , but I know a woman in Orlando who runs her own school and would jump at the chance to join an event like this. So at least we will have an Orlando angle to promoting it . heh
Thanks for not linking to the video; I won't look at it anyway. I refuse to watch horror movies like "Captivity." Hell, I can't watch "Law and Order" or "CSI." Or the news. Not only am I a woman, I am a mother to two girls, and my heart can't take it.

I'm not politically minded. I hate that crap. I see these guys (mostly guys) spouting off all sorts of stuff they'll contradict an hour later if someone contributes enough to their power fund. I'm sickened by it. I vote hopelessly, because it's always a lesser of two evils, and I hate that. I feel like I can't change anything, and that pisses me off.

A while back, though, I learned that you don't have to be politically minded, and you don't have to watch these videos. All you have to do, woman or man, is live a life you can respect, and teach your children, boys and girls, to do the same. As a matter of fact, I don't believe there's anything you can do that trumps that. Please, do that.

But beyond that, whether it's giving time or money to a cause, blogging it, or just respecting yourself and the women in your life, if you live to the cure, you are the cure. And, as I look back at times of humans being brought across oceans in boats like chattel and women being treated as procreational property and the vile heartbreak of the Holocaust, I do feel hopeful, because as tragic as this is, and as heartsick as I am for Dua and those who loved her, I feel very strongly that this is one of the last pathetic cries of a dying demon. All we can do is keep sticking our swords in it, where ever we get the opportunity, and for everyone whose power has been stripped by evil. Not just women.

Oh, and as a side note: Sex was associated with shame to do exactly what it did - take power away from women - so don't worry your pretty little selves about objectifying, boys. Sex is natural, and god-given, and sometimes, you get your groove on, and that's okay. We do it, too. If you do it without disrespecting or hurting anyone else, then you're doing it right. There's no more shame in sex than in video phones; it's all in how you use it.
There's a lot I could say on this subject, but won't, because hey: information overload.

But I can say this -- next month, Serenity goes back into cinemas again worldwide as a benefit for Equality Now and other charities. The lasting legacy of that film, in my humble opinion, is those screenings. It's screening at Glastonbury Festival this year, for those who haven't heard. Obviously, screening a movie for Equality Now isn't going to change the world, but it's something which has happened without Joss having to do or say anything 'bout it. Art can help save the world -- or at the very least shape the world. In good ways and bad. The reason I'm here is some little show called Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and the international success of that show heartens me.
Lani-I feel pretty much as you do about electoral politics, especially at higher levels of government, but as you can see here, there are other ways of acting politically. I wish I felt this was the "last pathetic cry of a dying demon"; I don't. But, besides living the cure in your personal life, there are plenty of other ways to "stick your sword" in it, if you want to get involved. (I'm talking to myself here, too, and I'm going to get busy.)
I don't have any answers; only questions.

Can we really do something about this? Not just supporting charitable causes, but truly effecting a change in our species?

Can we let go of all the petty little mental constructs that serve to divide ourselves from our neighbours.

Can we observe the violence in ourselves, and if so can it be ended, not by following the words of some saint, guru, politician but by truly seeing what we are.
commandlinegamer : Needless to say, I don't have answers to these questions either. But I think this is where Art comes in, re: saving the world, if such a thing is possible. Because it can really make you kick out the bottom of the way you look at things. And there is absolutely nothing harder than changing our own or someone else's mind about anything truly important.

[ edited by toast on 2007-05-20 15:43 ]
Last night I was surrounded by Whedon fans who all went to dinner after seeing Waitress. The age ran from 19 to 52 or so. I was really tired but wanted to attend because I knew I could sell more tickets to our Can't Stop the Serenity screening.
And this is why.
It is good to be reminded why we do what little we can to make a difference. We do try. Clearly, we should try harder.
This gave me chills.
Not wanting to distract from Joss' message which is very powerful and impassioned, but I would be interested to see him make a documentary on this subject.
Recently I took a class in Women in American History. This is America right, it couldn’t be that bad. All they teach you really in regular history classes; from elementary through high school is when women got the right to vote. And even that barely warrants a whole chapter. This 8 week class taught me more about what women in my own country have struggled for than I have learned my entire life…which is good for me and sad for anyone who HASN’T taken a class like that. Looking through history, we see the stories of people who risked everything to take a stand, and we are awed by them. Well now it’s own turn to stand up. We cannot take what freedom we have lightly, we have a responsibility to those who came before us to stand up for those who can’t, to speak for those with no voice, to finally say enough.

Thank you Joss for being a voice, and for inspiring others to speak.

P.S. I second Simon's documentary idea!
"I have never had any faith in humanity. "

Sorry for the contradiction, but I think you just may have a spark in there after all. I think that if you didn't, you wouldn't bother getting angry. This may have "broken" you, but often broken bones heal and become stronger at the breaking point. Maybe what's true for the physical can be true for the spiritual. Just maybe.

It's easier to roll over and accept that things as they are is the way they should be - that way, you abdicate any responsibility for changing things. It's Monday-morning quarterbacking for the entirety of human society - "If only Delhomme had stayed in the pocket" differs only in scale from "If only I'd been there when they dragged this poor girl outside."

Well, Mr. Whedon, you've made it clear that I WAS there. So now what do I do? Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't an option. And the would-be "coolboys" who recorded this may well have awoken a sleeping giant. Because now Dua Khalil isn't just some girl half a world away who was barbarically killed in some twisted satisfaction of family honor - she's got a name. Dua Khalil. And she's got a voice.

Let's make it heard - even if it's a scream.
I'm a woman in her 30s. I'm numb. I'm jaded. I'm frustrated and overwhelmed. I'm a lot of other similar adjectives.

I'm also ashamed.

I grew up in an area of the U.S. where misogyny was the norm. I have vivid memories of seeing two movies at the theater one summer. In both of these movies a woman was struck by a man. After both of these scenes people in the audience clapped.

I also have memories of what my mom had to put up with. A workman refusing to do his work based on my mom's say so. She had to get her husband's consent. The principal of my grade school caving in on some issue, not because I was right, but because he didn't want to deal with my mom. I still remember the attitude in his voice at the time.

Fortunately for me we were outsiders to this way of life. My mom told the workman he could either do his job based on her OK or we'd find someone else to do it. I knew the principal of my school was a jerk, not because of anything my mom ever said, but because I just knew he was wrong. I had seen life in other parts of the country. I'd seen the way my parents treated each other. The way it could be. The way it should be.

So I know wrong when I see it, but I've seen so much wrong over the years I almost don't react anymore.

Joss, you have made me ashamed of myself. You have made me want to be a better person, to try harder.

Thank you.
I would like to quote from a very wise man -

"Carefully watch your thoughts, for they become your words. Manage and watch your words, for they will become your actions. Consider and judge your actions, for they have become your habits. Acknowledge and watch your habits, for they shall become your values. Understand and embrace your values, for they become your destiny." - Mahatma Ghandi

It all begins with one human being and if another begins and another, then real change in the world will occur.

Thank you Joss
I can understand sansmercy's frustration at all the posts which seem to think that mysogenistic violence only happens in other countries. It happens everywhere, all the time. It always has. I don't think that it is because it is natural to our species, I refuse to believe that, but it is definitely not restricted to just one religion or georgraphic region.

However no one who knew Joss or his work would imagine he would be even indirectly promoting this RL violence by linking to it. Naturally he was seeking to link to a cure (in some small measure) for the violence.

I couldn't watch the CNN tape, but then I can't even watch 'Law & Order: SVU' because in that show all the violence is against women and children, and I really don't get the entertainment value.
You may of lost faith in humanity Joss, but for people like me you've restored mine again and again.

Humanity may be f-d up, but there's good people out there trying to make a difference.
Me, I think it’s fear. Too many men are afraid they are not strong so they bolster themselves by punishing the weak, just because they can. Too many men are afraid of how lust takes over their thoughts and makes them lose control so they subjegate what they see as the origin of that lust, either by punishing women for being attractive or by just raping them to get what they want. Too many men are afraid of how their friends and family will regard them if the women under their control try to defy orders and live for themselves. Too many men are afraid of life in general, and they banish the fear by becoming an object of fear themselves. And too many women agree with this and stand by as it happens.

I don’t think womb-envy answers it. I suspect Joss personally envies the womb but lacks even the slightest fear of women that would help him recognize it in others. This is a Good Thing, and should be spread around.
Sansmercy. Thank you for your bile. It's always fun to read a post that contains a line about compassion being an infinite resource AND the phrase 'screw you twice'.

But it highlights a point I think bears making. One of the things that keeps people from doing anything constructive is the overwhelming feeling that it simply isn't enough. And the withering disdain of people like Sansmercy has a similar effect. It freezes people, makes speaking out or lifting a finger awkward and problematic. I can only assume that Sansmercy has spent a lifetime addressing the problems the rest of us are only just now waking up to. But the fact is, whenever a person decides to do something useful -- no matter how late or how little -- that's something useful.

I freely admit that seeing that vid affected me in a way I haven't been in a long while. And I think what sent it over the edge was the idea of the person recording it. Because murderous rage, while inexcusable, is understandable. Casual recording of murderous rage is much more chilling.

There are so many ramifications of this act, and many of them will be polarizing. Race. Religion. Politics. All the non-gender based violence that needs to be addressed. It's all part of the same quagmire. Can't solve it all. Just stake out your piece. My piece will always begin with that simple question: how did women become so universally undervalued and abused? How was it pulled off, and how exactly was it useful?

Thank you guys for letting me vent, and for your responses. Let the debate continue. Maybe with a little less screwing.
Thank you, Joss, for causing everyone to consider this issue -- and its broader ramifications -- for at least a few minutes. If it causes people to take action because you are, well, You, then the world will undoubtedly be a better place, at least in those local areas where we as individuals have some impact. As you say, stake out your piece. Every little bit helps.
By the way: four arrested in Iraq "honour" killing
Doesn't begin to solve this but it's a start.
I love my wife. She has weaknesses, I have weaknesses. We know each other's weaknesses. She has strengths, I have strengths. We know each other's strengths. At no time will I use my strengths to take advantage of her weaknesses. I use my strengths only to help her. She reciprocates fairly. I hope you do, and I hope your wife does.

All I can ever hope is that more married couples start to behave this way, that more societies start to behave this way, that more countries start to behave this way.

[ edited by Flyvote on 2007-05-20 16:48 ]
I totally agree with Joss. What chills me more is that this is not a sole case of people videoing things like this. In Australia recently there have been several incidents of teenage boys raping teenage girls and taping it on their mobile phones and then puting the video on Youtube. What has the world come to where teenage boys think this is acceptable, even funny behavior? it makes me sick. Which is why I am against linking to the video, (thank you Joss for not doing so) becuase I believe these videos affect you much more deeply than we imagine. But it's your own choice whether you want to see it or not personally I prefer not to watch it.
Thanks for posting this, Joss. I've already read about it at different