However, they seem to have selective amnesia about that last one - Tara, Fred, Joyce.

Not really, as Buffy and Angel aren't going to be considered Sci-fi by PRG. That's considered fantasty, which historically as a ... slightly bigger margin of powerful women. Slightly.

But since they're talking strictly sci-fi, Firefly/Serenity are the only stories on the table.

ladycat | May 22, 17:28 CET

Ah ha, but Buffy is not scifi, it's fantasy. And there is a difference. And all the chicks on Firefly live.

Emma | May 22, 17:31 CET

LOL!

Though seriously, those eight simple rules do a lot to show some of the prejudices in sci-fi. Joss excluded, I think we have a ways to go.

And I love the one about space syphilis. :)

deepgirl187 | May 22, 19:30 CET

Another example is Tasha Yar (Star Trek TNG) sleeping with Data and then dying.

On the other hand we have Farscape. Chiana didn't just cheat, she cheated on Dargo by having sex with his son. She never appeared like a man but she certainly was no lady. And she never died (she did on occasion go blind).
Zhaan did die and she might have had sex but other from that she was a saint and a lady (though she did have a shaved head).

urkonn | May 22, 20:51 CET

Maybe the BSG finale I watched was in an alternate reality, but Starbuck isn't dead. She died, and I guess this could have been written when she was dead, but now that she is among the living I don't know if she can still be cited as an example.

And while the women might have survived Firefly and Serenity, the one happy and established relationship did not survive, in true Joss fashion.

[ edited by theclynn on 2007-05-22 22:09 ]

theclynn | May 22, 21:29 CET

I think Joss just liked using romantic moments just before some of his character's deaths just to heighten the tragedy of their deaths and make it even more traumatic, rather than to "punish" them as such for their sexuality. Tara and Willow, for example, has an active sexual relationship for a couple of years before Tara's death so I would in no way interpret Tara's death as her being punished for her sexuality.

It was just Joss' style of storytelling to have the characters experience a happy reunion before brutally killing one of them off. And I think people have came up with interesting interpretations of their own, even if I don't necessarily agree with them, such as Tara's death was more of a punishment for her ignoring her relationship problems with Willow rather than the fact that they had a relationship at all. But I prefer to see it as Joss pointing out the horror of someone being killed when they weren't even the intended victim, and of course it was clear from Willow's control and power issues that something quite explosive was going to happen with her magick before too long. Tara's death was just the catalyst for that to happen.

Razor | May 22, 22:46 CET

I suppose in some ways you could view Joss as punishing some of his characters for their sexuality (Angel turning into Angelus, GiantDawn). But I think what Joss and co. really try to do is punish characters for being happy. There was a strong tendency for something horrible to happen to a character just when they were about to obtain some type of happiness. Wes and Fred, Buffy and Angel, Willow and Tara; all met tragic ends right when it looked as if they might, heaven forbid, find joy in their lives. Happiness seems to be more of a crime in the Jossverse than sex ever was, I think.

deepgirl187 | May 23, 00:31 CET

I don't buy that Joss punishes his characters for happiness; just a happy moment followed by sudden death is always shocking, which is good for storytelling. And he uses it a bit too much.

Still, he always lulls me into a false sense of security, so it's never failed to work for me...

UnpluggedCrazy | May 23, 01:19 CET