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July 05 2007

No Star For Joss. Looks like Joss did not get selected for the 2008 group.

But hey, The Munchkins, Christina Aguilera, Ricky Martin, and Vince McMahon made it. So that's some solace...right? Ahem...

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2007-07-05 02:37 ]

Christina Aguilera?
All I can say about this horrific turn of events is:
WTFF...F!?!
I have been depressed over this so much that I have not even updated the site. However, we will be back since the nomination rolls over to next year.

With Marsters comments this past weekend - this past week has been an emotional roller coaster.

[ edited by RavenU on 2007-07-05 03:02 ]
Heh, I'll stick up for Xtina: her last album was fantastic. I still listen to parts of it, and it's been out for months. Hell, I still listen to a lot of songs from the album before that.

Also, there are quite a few fantastic picks: Angela Bassett! Tim Robbins! Cate Blanchett! Stan Lee(!!!!!)

Good luck next go 'round. I'm sure it'll happen.
I'm all for Tim Robbins. But as much as I like Cate Blanchett, she should not be getting a star before Joss does.

But whatever. Let's see Cate's fans raise nearly (if not actually) $100,000 for charity on their own initiative.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2007-07-05 03:15 ]
Not much of an Xtina fan either and honestly I think she simply has not been around long enough to get a star, but well...

Joss will get his star one day, Im sure of that. So lets try for the next round.
Well, I'm a little ill over Vince McMahon getting a star, considering what's happened lately. But I'm sure he'll still get his star next year. What worries me is that he'll turn it into a storyline.
But Stan Lee's made the list, too. That's pretty good.

[ edited by impalergeneral on 2007-07-05 03:27 ]
OK, RavenU...I'm out of the loop. What about James?
{{hugs}} RavenU, and I am glad to hear that the money will be held for next year's nominations. Do you think a letter writing campaign to the Hollywood Chamber of Commerce would help at all? I would really like to see this happen!
OK, RavenU...I'm out of the loop. What about James?

Yeah, that threw me a bit, too.

Glad to see the Chili Peppers and Stephen Schwartz each got a star.

Next year...Whedon! ::crosses fingers::

[ edited by Haikes on 2007-07-05 03:48 ]
Will come a moment of ripeness.

(He's already got a star in the important place.)
Pointy, Joss is ripe. In the good way! Not the stinky way. Or maybe he is stinky, who am I to comment on Joss' preferred personal scent...

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2007-07-05 03:58 ]
Frankly, I don't really see the point of such things.

I hope Joss isn't disappointed, but other than that, don't much care.

Aren't these sorts of things silly, what with having nothing whatsoever to do with actual quality and all?

Kinda like Oscars and Emmies and such (oh, my!), which tend to have everything to do with anything EXCEPT quality most of the time.

Joss, if you care about the star, I've very sorry to hear you don't have it ... YET.

Seems to me what matters is the actual quality of your work (not all that bad, say I :-*) and how many people have been bowled over, and even changed (in a GOOD way) by it, not to mention how many will continue to be over the years, decades, and more, and, on top of that, all the collateral effects you've had.

And if you don't care, then Good for You, lad.

(I can call you 'lad' 'cause I'm, like, OLDER than you.)

About the whole "star" thing, for some reason I'm reminded of being at a conference -- I forget what city -- outside the main hotel, (smoking and pacing), seeing a bronze star dealy, and, liking historical monument thingies, wandering over to read it.

It said something like:

"On [date], on this spot, absolutely nothing happened."

Cheers!
Rogue Slayer, get all that Jossian olfactory talk out of your system now if you plan on bidding on Dinner with Joss! Let's not forget his list of verboten topics includes:

Odors, Mine


Harmalicous and Haikes, I can't be sure, but I assumed RavenU was referring to comments JM made about being sexually abused as a child at his Fangoria Q&A this past Sunday.
(He's already got a star in the important place.)


Uh, I'm more than a little afraid to ask....
sigh

I'm sure it is me, but I do not know who some of these people are.

Go try though, RavenU. You'll/We'll get him next year.
Rogue Slayer, get all that Jossian olfactory talk out of your system now if you plan on bidding on Dinner with Joss!

Ah yeah, I was gonna spend the extra 10G I have laying around the house to get hubby and I to the dinner, but if I can't even talk about Joss' odors...pfft, not even worth it!

I guess I'll have to stand outside Croce's and yell 'smell' questions at Joss. Which will really be odd, since I bet he's not going there.
It's just the only nice-ish restaurant I could think of in San Diego...
I was gonna spend the extra 10G I have laying around the house to get hubby and I to the dinner


I'm still busily counting up the quarters I've found between the couch cushions myself. I'm sure it will be enough to push me over the brink into WinningBidderland. It's just got to be!
The loss to Ricky Martin must really sting.
tehabwa:
Frankly, I don't really see the point of such things.


As far as I can tell, it's to remind the rest of us how little most of the world cares about actual quality of work. I'm usually more than just a tad startled when someone whom I feel deserves it receives - well, pretty much any kind of award.
I'm so sorry, RavenU, because I can understand how you must have put your heart and soul into this effort. I know that you will make it happen eventually. :)
That's a shame, and I'm sorry for all the people who worked really hard for it.

And seriously, could someone tell us what comments from Marsters made this week rollercoastery?
Joss will get his star on Hwood Blvd, sooner or later, no question.
Stan Lee, Tim Robbins - great!
Ricky Martin - it must be some kind of silly joke from them, but I don't get it...
So does that mean each of those people did have the fans to raise the $25,000?

Going back to the criteria:

The criteria for Star on the Walk of Fame.

1. Professional achievement
2. Longevity of five years in the field of entertainment
3. Contributions to the community


I just cannot see how Joss is not the most obvious shoo-in.
With Marsters comments this past weekend - this past week has been an emotional roller coaster.

What's with James Marsters last weekend? Care to share. Don't leave us here with nothing...
Hey, at least Stan Lee got a star! That means Joss has plenty of years left to win, plus I'm sure by the time he's Stan Lee's age he'll have accomplished just as much! But let's try to get Joss a star before then...
Hey, I'm not too disappointed. Getting a star is a sign that you've made it to a high plateau of cultural awareness -- so, people in front of the camera have that much higher chance than people behind it, even though the magic of Hollywood freakin' depends on the people behind the camera, but the rewards system is very different. So I'm OK, b/c this designation is very very much a in-front-of-the-camera type of thing, and no matter how much I adore Joss as an artist, he's not at a point in his career where he's known to the Everyman. Normal people are aware of directors like James Cameron, Stephen Spielberg and Michael Bay. Joss, not so much.

Which is cool: being famous is not the same thing as turning in amazing art. It's a little like toiling as an artist in pre-Renaissance days, when artists were considered artisans and not individual men of genius. Only, you know, totally not as well.
karosurly wrote > Harmalicous and Haikes, I can't be sure, but I assumed RavenU was referring to comments JM made about being sexually abused as a child at his Fangoria Q&A this past Sunday.

That was part of it, he was fairly open with his talks all weekend. Some of what he said that had an effect me was personal but needless to say the dude made me cry and I so didn't need that. He did ask if Joss got a star and I told him no, I had told him about it back in April, and was glad that he remembered it.
Being someone not so familiar with the wrestling phenomenon (it doesn't seem to exist any more in the UK)... the idea of "storylines" in wrestling disturbs me. I mean, bad enough that they're pretending to be fighting, now they pretend to be drama as well?
So one of the recipients was a wrestler? That would explain why I don't know who some of them are.

I hope you are feeling a little better RavenU.
I would have said that Joss was too COOL to get a star, but since Stan Lee - who once said, "Hi cutie pie!" to me when I shouted "Hi Stan!" upon walking past him at a convention- got one, I have to just assume Joss is too COOL and too YOUNG. ;-)

And Tim Robbins is one of my professional heroes. Considering the contentious political climate in the country right now, giving "Bob Roberts" a star is pretty durn nifty, in my opinion.

RavenU, hang in there, honey. :-)
Being someone not so familiar with the wrestling phenomenon (it doesn't seem to exist any more in the UK)...

Does Big Daddy have a star ? Guess there've always been story elements to wrestling (the fake kind that is) even in the UK because they've always had 'goodies' (e.g. Big Daddy) and 'baddies' (e.g. Giant Haystacks). Whenever that happens arbitrarily it's a sure sign of an imposed narrative. From what I gather (not a fan), nowadays they're just more overt and more ambitious about it.

Sorry for those that put time and effort into the star thing, better luck next time (the apparent daftness of their choices would actually make me feel better since it clearly shows that Joss wasn't 'refused' based on not deserving it, or even on the campaign mounted in his name).
Do you know why Joss didn't get a star? I'll tell you. Because he didn't write the story where "...those cute inner-city kids taught their coach a valuable lesson." In other words, he didn't appeal to Dawn's demographic, using formula Hollywood cardboard cutout creativity. No, instead he used real creativity, and told unique stories adults want to view again and again.
I think its quite a thing to have such a loyal following that a contingent of fans raises money for charity in your name. Star or not, he has already won.

Side note: I've met Stan Lee a couple times and he is a bonafide class act when it comes to his fans.
No they are not responding to my inquiries. Gorramit they gave Dick Wolfe a star and even Donald Trump got one (I'm still trying to figure out what that one was for). And I challenge anyone to find a Law & Order fan and ask them who Dick Wolfe is and they couldn't tell you. Joss at least has more name recognition than most Creator/Producers on TV.

Goes back and **pouts** in corner.
I think you underestimate Dick Wolfe's name recognition especially among fans of his shows. People may not think much of him but he's pretty well known IMO.
The Munchkins???? And Not Joss?? Sigh. (shakes head, staring at floor)
They gave one to Howie Mandel, fer chrissakes. There is no justice in this world.
Sad to hear it didn't happen, RavenU. It took them this long to give it to Stan Lee-- it might just be the kind of recognition that comes later in the career of someone who writes within genres rather than supermegacrazypopular type tv and movie work.

Claims of who is more or less deserving of recognition strike me as very apple vs. orange comparisons-- acting's different from writing, directing and producing. I couldn't judge who's more or less worthy even though I'm happy to see some names on the list and don't recognize others.

One thing the list suggests to me is that there needs to be a pop music connection to cover all the bases. I'm going to call it now: Joss's surprise break away Latin hit for the win in 2009.
Actually helcat you would be surprised by how many don't know who he is. Besides the L&O boards I know plenty of people who never miss an episode but have no idea who created the show. While if you mention Joss Whedon even a casual viewer will say isn't he the Buffy guy. I would say if all things were equal Joss has more name recognition among his fans compared to Dick, and Joss has done it in a shorter period of time.
Personally I find the star for Donald Trump to be an insult to the television and movie industry, and lowers the prestige of the whole 'have a star' thing. However I had been convinced, by RavenU, a year ago that this is something that Joss would appreciate, and something that may not be possible to do at all in the near future, so I was happy to donate to it.
It is a disappointment to not get approved right away, but I hope that the organizers are not too discouraged and give up.
BTW RavenU I hope that JM's reported comment that he thought Joss was done with TV was not one of the things that got to you. 'Cause that is just JM's perception. People change their feelings about things all the time.
I am in agreement with helcat. I think alot more people know who Dick Wolf is then people give him credit for. He has been around forever he deserves a star just as much as anyone. Just because he does not have the kind of fandom that Joss does, does not make him unworthy.

Joss will get his star!!
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but a little less hatin' sounds good to me...

In our little corner of fandom, Joss is the tops but just because someone got the star doesn't make them more or less deserving. It's just their turn. This isn't an award, its a popularity contest.

Frankly, I'm happy Joss isn't a household name. It's like when your favorite band makes it really big and you have a hard time getting a ticket with all their new found fame. (Or like comic shows when I used to visit with artists in Artist Alley who are now surrounded by security and mobs of people at the Marvel booth)
I know that his is a Whedon website, but some of you are seriously lacking in objectivity.

Since 1999, Christina Aguilera has had 6 worldwide wide #1 songs and 8 in the top 5. She has won 5 Grammys,while being nominated for 16 and sold over 30 million records. Like her music or not, she is a bona fide star.

Vince McMahon revolutionized the sports entertainment industry and made it into a billion dollar franchise. Since the 70s McMahon has taken the business from a small northeast company to a worlwide mega business, branching from television, to music and most recently producing his own movies. Like him or not McMahon has made strides in television and the way wrestling is seen World Wide.

Ricky Martin has sold over 55 million albums around the world, charting twenty one top-ten hits on the U.S. Latin Charts. Like his music or not, he is a World Wide star.

For anyone to say that Cate Blanchett is undeserving of a star, has no idea about entertainment. The list of awards the she has won is most impressive and she is a brilliant performer.

Joss Whedon has done some very good works, I am very partial to Firefly / Serenity, a story about people doing what it takes to survive in a hard, tough world, while holding on to their freedoms. More so than high school and college kids with supernatural powers. I'm sure that Joss will continue to do very good works and his accomplishments will be recognized soon enough.

I don't know some of the people on that list, but taking a shot at the people mentioned above is wrong.
but just because someone got the star doesn't make them more or less deserving. It's just their turn.

alexreager....Vince McMahon?!?!?

To be honest, Hollywood 'honors' never meant much to me after I saw that Martin Lawrence put his prints in at Grauman's.

But seriously, if civic and community contributions are taken into consideration, Joss should be a shoe-in next year. He'll have easily garnered $25,000 on the upcoming dinner alone! Not to mention everything else he does....
Nah, newcj, that was not one of the comments that got to me. I don't think he keeps in contact with many former verse cast members. So I am sure he is not aware of rescent Joss comments about TV.

SillyD, I wasn't saying Dick was unworthy, I love the L&O, and he does deserve it. I was just saying that I can go out and ask around my town and I will find more people who knows who Joss is than those who would know who Dick is. I just think that it shows that Joss has made have more of an impact on our culture and the characters he created, than Dick Wolfe has done for the entertainment culture.
I don't know some of the people on that list, but taking a shot at the people mentioned above is wrong.

It's certainly easy. I'm not sayin' right, though: Christina Aguilera's Beautiful is a fantastic song and video.

Pretty obviously there's a bit of a Whedonesque skew on this webular area. And also, the reoccuring theme of outsiders of popular culture. Not surprising.

RavenU, if you go Google Dick Wolfe and Joss Whedon, they've both got pretty much the same number of web pages mentioning themselves. Not scientific? Sure. But I know pretty much everybody I know in real life as no idea who Joss is, and they would laugh if I tell them his body of work. Which is fine, because it is what it is.

[ edited by gossi on 2007-07-05 17:35 ]
Sorry RavenU. Hopefully, next year, Joss will get his star. I think he deserves that and so much more. I don't know half those names on that list but that doesn't mean much. I don't watch much television and it takes a lot to hold my interest.

I have to agree with gossi, however. Most of the people in RL I know, if you mention Btvs or Ats to them, they may be able to tell you who starred in the series but mention Joss Whedon and they draw a blank on the name.
Put it in perspective then gossi if Dick Wolfe and Joss Whedon have about the same number of web pages I think that says a great deal more about people being able to identify him verse Dick Wolfe. Since Dick's company has been around for almost 20 years with the L&O franchise. Compare to Joss and company's decade, Wolfe Productions created 4 series, ME created 3. The number of people who watch L&O are about 5x the number that watched a Whedon show, yet they virtually have the same ammount of webage on them. I think that would make Joss the winner in the influence on culture award.
Joss is also the creator of very cult shows. A sci-fi show, also. And he's very active online. He creates shows for people to obsess over, probably as a mission statement.

It all depends on how you look at Hollywood stars. I've no clue who Dick Wolfe is, but I do know he created one of the most enduring TV series around -- literally, the longest running drama series on TV, I think. Therefore, a star doesn't seem out of the question to me.

Outside of cult / sci-fi circles -- the niche we're in -- I doubt many people know (or care) who Joss Whedon is. I'm pretty sure Joss himself has learned this lesson the hard way. Do I think he deserves a star? Yeah. He might be the man behind the curtain, but his strings have been a huge influence to me, both in how I enjoy media, to how I approach and enjoy life.
Needless to say, my heart was crushed when I read this topic. We were so close, I thought for sure Joss would finally get his star.

Licking wounds and painting on a new game face, I say lets give them hell this upcoming year. One way or the other, Joss is getting that star. Searching acme concrete in Hollywood.....
More so than high school and college kids with supernatural powers. I'm sure that Joss will continue to do very good works and his accomplishments will be recognized soon enough.

Uh, have you ever actually watched those shows?

Yes, on a superficial level they were about slayers, vamps, witches, etc. and about high school, college, and twenty-somethings.

But that's not really what those two shows were about.

Maybe give them a second viewing -- it took my second viewing to really GET Buffy, I mean to really see the sorts of stuff Joss and the rest were saying, as well as truly appreciate all the ART and ability behind them on all levels.

Buffy and Angel were about some of the very deepest questions of life -- and done in a deep, rich, thoughtful way that truly respected the complexity and messiness of all Big Deal issues.

Not to mention that, in 6.5 seasons, there is not a single weak episode of Buffy. I've never known any TV show to accomplish that.

Buffy is not merely the very best TV show ever, it's among the very best works of literature ever.

This is not just "Joss is SO cool." and "Nathan is SO hot." air-head fandom.

Those works are the Real Deal.
Vince McMahon?! VINCE MCMAHON!? Good god.
Who is Vince McMahon?
Ah, the eternal question. While we're at it, if he claps one hand in a forest does it make a sound ?
There has always been an eclectic assortment of "honorees" with stars- some worthy of much respect, some not so much. I appreciate the desire to pay homage, but maybe we should not be terribly surprised to find out that the decision-makers in this case did not exhibit perfect taste, excellent judgment, and artistic sensibility?

I'm sorry that people who have worked hard, and with the best intentions, have been disappointed. Would it be churlish to suggest that before continuing to pour more time and energy into this project, you consider that there might be more rewarding uses for your talents and efforts?
I am certainly not going to make this into a argument over the merits of Buffy. I am not a moron and that would be like throwing chum to the sharks then diving in with them. No Thanks.

My point was simple and easy. In my own personal, singular opinion, I felt that Firefly / Serenity was done in an adult format, appealing to and aimed at, adults. A rich humanly diverse group of people who, in an all to short span of time, touched and moved a lot of people deeply.

That Verse, to me, was simply the best ever and it didn't take 6.5 seasons, but that wasn't what this was about. It was about some people taking shots at others, in essence tearing someone down to build another person up. I don't think Joss would want people doing that in his name.

Just my opinion
You know, this hubbub reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons when hack actor Troy McClure made his big comeback, and they gave him a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame--pulling up Buster Keaton's star to make room.

Sometimes, you just can't figure out show biz people.
And how do you clap one hand? Think about that a spell.

While I'm at it, wish to remind everyone that Ally's book, "Will the Vampire People Please Leave the Lobby will be out here in a few weeks. I'm really looking forward in reading this one.
Mmm, chum.

And how do you clap one hand? Think about that a spell.

This reminds me of 'The Simpsons' episode when Lisa asks a similar question and Bart just does it. It's actually pretty easy, just clap your fingers against the palm of the same hand. There, we've fixed philosophy, anyone fancy tackling world peace or should we sleep on it and get stuck in all refreshed and bright eyed tomorrow ?
I don't want to enter the debate over the relative merits of who gets selected for this. Clearly, I think Joss deserves a star, and I figure he will get one, one day soon.

I just wanted to say thank you to RavenU for all the hard work on this.

And if there is anyone here who is not familiar with RavenU's fantastic celebrity photography, please, please check it out over at "the library" on Flickr.
Nebula 1400 asked "Who is Vince McMahon?"

The president/owner of World Wrestling Entertainment (formerly Federation, until they lost the battle over "WWF" with the World Worldlife Fund). Obsedian Mon already went into some detail about him above; I'll add that he's been an on-air personality in the wrestling broadcasts since (at least) the early 80's, going from "good guy" announcer to "evil boss". In fact, one recent storyline had him warring with Donald Trump, I guess over who was the bigger big shot.

And yes, they do have storylines, daylight. It's been aptly called "soap opera for men" (although women also watch). It's been officially admitted, initially for tax purposes, that it's more plotted programming than sporting event. Most of the footage still takes place in the arenas, but dramatic plotlines have involved marriages and divorces as well as professional rivalries. And in fact, Vince McMahon recently "died" in a limousine explosion; I saw a commercial advertising an upcoming three hour "tribute" to McMahon, including an appearance by the "federal investigators" supposedly looking into the "murder". Tragically and bizarrely, the real-life apparent murder-suicide of WWE wrestler Chris Benoit and his family happened the weekend before the McMahon "tribute" was to air, leading the WWE to replace it with a bonafide tribute to a deceased performer, introduced (I believe) by a breaking-from-plotline McMahon. (For the record, I don't watch wrestling - did a bit as a kid, saw some of now-defunct rival WCW in the mid-nineties - but, I had this somewhat relevant trivia bouncing 'round my head...)

As far as the star on the Walk goes: I am sorry for the disappointment, and certainly agree that Joss deserves it, but find it somewhat mollifying that Stan Lee is just now getting one, after all these decades.
Just for an extra boost of why Joss has name recognition...my local pub quiz this week included a "name the creator of the show" question, one of whom was Joss. Almost everyone in the pub got it.
My favorite answer to "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" has always been the asker getting slapped.

While getting a star on the Walk of Fame is a lovely honor, no one is really worse off for not having one. Clint Eastwood doesn't have star and he's still doing pretty well in the biz.
I agree. I know that RavenU has worked so hard in getting Joss this star. I can not think of a finer effort of any other in this room.

Thank you, RavenU!
You know, this hubbub reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons when hack actor Troy McClure made his big comeback, and they gave him a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame--pulling up Buster Keaton's star to make room.

I love The Simpsons and that joke, but just in case some people don't know, that doesn't really happen. The physical stars themselves wear out and have to be replaced, of course, but they're always replaced with the same. The designations are as permanent as possible, sort of like graves.
Vanna White and Pee Wee Herman have stars?! I'm starting to think maybe Joss is in better company by not having one!
The stars on the hollywood walk of fame are beyond meaningless and are always paid for. I don't understand why anyone would care. The work is what stands the test of time, not the stupid star. It has nothing to do with quality, people.

[ edited by themayor on 2007-07-06 00:40 ]
The work is what stands the test of time, not the stupid star. It has nothing to do with quality, people.

Well, no it doesn't. It's about show business and its history, sort of like an ongoing celebration and memorial. I live in the neighborhood and sometimes I walk up on a stand-up display of flowers on a star, and it wasn't in the news that that person died, and I have no idea who they were, looking at the star. The foundation that does the stars puts the flowers there. Or sometimes, I walk up on a sudden vast memorial of flowers and candles and notes and things, and that's my first information that a beloved person has died, though I see it later in the news. I think that Joss values show business. It's in his family history and in his life's work, and he belongs there. It's not a judgment on his artistic value. It's not that it's necessary. His last parking space will probably be covered with flowers and candles and notes. But I think it's appropriate.
Double post. Wacky connection problems. Sorry.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2007-07-06 02:43 ]
Whatever your opinion may be on the matter, there are people among us who worked hard to make it so. (As I'm certain you can tell.) Be nice.
Actually, I live in Hollywood too, and when I first got here I immediately noticed there's more crop than cream to who gets the stars. It's more of an honor that he doesn't have one. And I don't think I'm being mean at all, just simply expressing my opinion.

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