Whedonesque : Comments on 13961 : Buffy is the number one tv show of all time.

Amen.

Though I would probably move Firefly up to #2.

Well, duh! :-)

Always been #1 in my heart.

It is nice to see Firefly in there, but would the teeniest bit of fact checking be impossible? Pre-empted by football? On Sundays? Whatever.

TamaraC | August 12, 01:27 CET

Amen again. And I'm just getting into The Wire, but I love it. Dave & I can't figure out how the hell we missed it until now. But how can it be there without Homicide: Life on the Streets being nearby (or, really, above it?) And, yeah, I'd put Firefly in the Top 10.

Bobbi | August 12, 01:28 CET

It strikes me that the statement "Joss Whedon [should get a special place] in heaven" seems to be rather disrespectful to both Joss as an atheist (whether he would personally take offense or not, for which I cannot speak) and to the Judeo-Christian belief that Atheists don't go to Heaven.

This has been a completely pointless comment brought to you by the rubber smurf sitting on top of some Swedish oddball's computer screen.

GreatMuppetyOdin | August 12, 01:36 CET

Complete agreement with the top spot, of course. I am puzzled with Twin Peaks being seated at 21. Pitching the X-Files (and a bunch of other shows) to any network pre Twin Peaks would have been an impossible task.

herb | August 12, 01:39 CET

The best there's ever been and one that will stand the test of time. Like the Beatles' best songs and Shakespeare's best plays.

[ edited by Pointy on 2007-08-12 02:34 ]

Pointy | August 12, 01:47 CET

And Paul Klee's best paintings and Dicken's best novels and Oscar Wilde's best bon mots and the chocolate mousse of Julia Child.

QuoterGal | August 12, 02:03 CET

Totally with you on all counts, Pointy.

Bobbi | August 12, 02:09 CET

OK, I edited this to remove redundancy, but that made Saje's comment look out of left field, so I figured the Judeo-Christian thing to do would be to reconstruct my comment from memory:

My 12 years of thoroughly Judeo-Christian religious schooling taught me that atheists do go to heaven, but not to expect them to be all that overjoyed to hear it.

[ edited by Pointy on 2007-08-12 02:39 ]

Pointy | August 12, 02:23 CET

Nope, not much (seems kinda dull anyhow, I doubt they have pubs ;). And how about dogs ?

Like the Beatles' best songs and Shakespeare's best plays.

Or Chandler's best sentence or JS Mill's most humane insight.

That should have been Buffy, but by hook or crook the show stayed alive, never compromising its excellence and continually finding new ways to keep the show fresh right up until its spectacular finale.

Too true. I feel the same way about Angel. Sometimes i'd watch that show and wonder how the hell they got it past them. Or, hope of hopes, maybe they realised exactly what they had and loved it too.

And re: the list, 'Jackass' ahead of 'The Twilight Zone', 'Doctor Who' and 'Twin Peaks' ? Thinking not.

(though, consolingly, there are a few shows that appear consistently in these lists that I haven't seen at all yet, like 'The Wire', 'The Sopranos' and 'Freaks and Geeks'. Good viewing ahead)

Saje | August 12, 02:29 CET

The Price Is Right is at #10? Beating out Firefly? O...k...

We will bring you the limp and beaten body of Bob Barker.

crossoverman | August 12, 02:36 CET

And the dialogue of Jane "!Kittens!" Espenson...

@ Saje:
"In heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here.
And when we're all gone from here
Our friends will be drinking all the beer."

ET: fix formatting. Hell and damnation!

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2007-08-12 02:59 ]

QuoterGal | August 12, 02:57 CET

Pointy, I remember reading somewhere in the Bible that those who blaspheme against the Lord can never be forgiven and thus are not welcome in His Kingdom.

GreatMuppetyOdin | August 12, 03:21 CET

Wandering hopelessly off topic:

You can only blaspheme gods you believe in. I think G.K. Chesterton said it was impossible to blaspheme Zeus. (Unless you believe in Zeus.)

Pointy | August 12, 03:26 CET

So, Pointy, you're basically saying that in the Bible universe, you're more likely to go to Hell after the Battle of Harmagedon if you do believe in God than if you don't? I find that quite strange. But then again, it's all quite strange.

GreatMuppetyOdin | August 12, 03:45 CET

Not really saying that. And now I'm not really saying anything that isn't at least tangentially on topic.

Pointy | August 12, 03:48 CET

Whoa, lets bring this wildly driven bus back on the road. I believe we were speaking Buffy. Or somethin' along that sort.

Madhatter | August 12, 03:51 CET

No Farscape love at all?!? Dang. And here I've been nearly tempted away from my long-term Buffy/Angel rewatch by reading Elizabeth Bear's daily Farscape rewatch on her LJ (user name matociquala). Talk about funny - she's tracking farts and bodily fluids per episode. ;-D

cabri | August 12, 04:06 CET

I only made it half way through the list, but their meaning of "top" is eluding me. They're mixing scripted shows with game shows and "reality" shows, and good scripted shows with awful ones. Huh?

dreamlogic | August 12, 04:40 CET

dreamlogic, I think part of the premise of "top" here isn't merely "the best shows" but "the most influential shows".

While even that doesn't necessarily mean we'll agree with all their picks, it is a different math than just "best".

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2007-08-12 05:53 ]

theonetruebix | August 12, 05:52 CET

Well, if it's "influential," for a small slice of age group, which seems to be largely mine, I guess The Brady Bunch must be included. There were a couple of movie sequels made, after all. It must be important. But if they're not sorting by quality, or by ratings if they're trying to reflect harsh reality, it seems to me that there should be at least some reflection of the worthiness of the influence. Jackass? And, again, The Brady Bunch?

dreamlogic | August 12, 06:38 CET

I'm still not sure about their list overall, but, well, there's that argument with almost any list.

They've also got Buffy on their "Best Finales" list...

k8cre8 | August 12, 07:28 CET

Can't help but agree with the placement.

UnpluggedCrazy | August 12, 07:28 CET

Cheers Pointy, that's very Judeo-Christian of you ;).

And ta for the song QG ;). Never heard of it but when I put "In heaven there is no beer" into Google it comes back with 2.4+ million hits. Is it like a frat tradition or something ?

So, Pointy, you're basically saying that in the Bible universe, you're more likely to go to Hell after the Battle of Harmagedon if you do believe in God than if you don't?

It depends doesn't it ? In some variations you have to have accepted "God's grace" during life to avoid Hell, in others you get the chance after death to repent. And some of 'em don't have Hell at all. Gotta say, part of atheism's attraction for me was out of sheer laziness - just too hard keeping track of all the different "One Truths" that are out there ;).

(I remember my Sunday School teacher literally putting the fear of God into us by telling us about this damn pigeon that sharpens its beak on a mountain once every ten thousand years and when the mountain's worn down to nothing, that is one second in Hell's eternal fiery torment. Always seemed a bit unfair to me, I mean, what can we puny humans possibly do that's bad enough to deserve that ? And does, like, coveting your neighbour's wife count the same as killing someone ? Cos, waaaayyy harsh, y'know ?)

Saje | August 12, 09:41 CET

I remember my Sunday School teacher literally putting the fear of God into us by telling us about this damn pigeon that sharpens its beak on a mountain once every ten thousand years and when the mountain's worn down to nothing, that is one second in Hell's eternal fiery torment.

Your Sunday School teacher was a very "up"-person, I believe, like Angel when he tried to save that guy in Happy Anniversary, the heartbroken one, by talking about the all-consuming fire that love is, which leaves nothing but wasteland!

bookworm | August 12, 10:12 CET

This is a perfect example of how topics are ruined.

Madhatter | August 12, 10:46 CET

Oh, keep yer hat on MH ;), the topic's still there, Buffy's still number one, all's right with the world. I mean, apart from the problem of evil obviously ;-).

Your Sunday School teacher was a very "up"-person ...

She was OK really, there wasn't much hellfire and brimstone in the delivery, she was pretty matter of fact about it, and afterwards we did colouring in ;).

(I guess I just took it to heart a bit more than she intended)

Saje | August 12, 11:05 CET

Wakes up early Sunday morning to check theological discourse on Whedonesque. Collapses laughing.

Pointy | August 12, 11:44 CET

Thanks to you, Saje, I now understand the thinking behind Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds, a title that previously struck as much fear into me as The Bunnies.

Mind drifts carelessly back on topic

And the best Hitchcock films!

Pointy | August 12, 11:57 CET

No, just thinking of you.

Madhatter | August 12, 12:32 CET

I guess I just took it to heart a bit more than she intended!

Children are fragile!

Wakes up early Sunday morning to check theological discourse on Whedonesque. Collapses laughing.

Today's Sunday! Oh f**k! I didn't notice!

bookworm | August 12, 13:06 CET

very cool list. wish they could have included angel seperately but otherwise a terrific list. very happy that buffy grabbed the top spot, and on a subject unrelated to buffy, im very happy that the Wire was up there, even beating sopranos, which is the way it should be. Sopranos was great, but the writers seemed to wallow in their own brilliance during the last season.

also yay for Firefly.

vocah | August 12, 13:19 CET

A good list, but no Monty Python? Futurama? Spaced? Ah well, you can't have everything. Personally, I think The Simpsons and Seinfeld are both far too low.

Jona | August 12, 13:30 CET

Does following this thread this Sunday morning count towards going to church? Cuz seriously, I'd rather listen to Saje and Pointy and Vince than the local bible thumpers.

skeezycheeses | August 12, 13:33 CET

Buffy makes it clear that she doesn't understand about religion when she says

I don't understand about
dimensions or theology or any of ...
but I think I was in heaven.

so I think it is right that we try to explore a few of these subjects on her behalf.
And Saje, I had the same Bird/mountain story. It was pretty effective.

Lioness | August 12, 13:37 CET

No Angel, no Deadwood (amongst many others), a few good choices and a whole lot of crap. This list bites the big one.

[ edited by sungoesdark on 2007-08-12 13:41 ]

sungoesdark | August 12, 13:39 CET

When people told me about birds on mountains and Hell and angels when I was six years old, I just told them they were stupid and asked them if they believed in Santa as well. I've always found humans to be quite odd. I've gotten better at not saying everything out loud since then, though.
I was a bit of an Anya as a child.

[ edited by Vince on 2007-08-12 14:25 ]

GreatMuppetyOdin | August 12, 14:24 CET

Hmm. the bible thumpers who taught me Sunday school didn't talk about hell that much. They were more interested in satanic influences in daily life, like rock records with backwards messages in them, and any mention of the occult, anywhere. I guess they were cutting edge in fundamentalism, while y'alls were more old school. They would have had a field day with Buffy. God, I wish I'd had Buffy growing up. The Simpsons, too. Young folks don't know how lucky they are.

dreamlogic | August 12, 15:03 CET

In my book Buffy is the greatest TV show of all time.

Reddygirl | August 12, 15:38 CET

If Hitchcock had grown up in Australia, he might have called it The Bunnies.

Pointy | August 12, 15:55 CET

Well, it makes more sense than birds. 'Sall I'm saying.

Pointy | August 12, 16:47 CET

If we could get back to the topic in hand it would be greatly appreciated.

Simon | August 12, 17:04 CET

Hey, who else is intrigued by Joss's talk of an issue of the comic (#11, I think) that's just Buffy and Willow talking? I'm thinking we might be headed toward some non-hetero, intra-Scoobie kissage.

Pointy | August 12, 17:05 CET

What, Pointy? So Buffy's just gonna mack on Willow out of the blue? That'd be weird, and very out of character. There's never been the slightest hint of attraction between them, they're way more like sisters.

I just wish Joss'd bring Tara back. In exactly the way he said he'd do it. That'd be perfection.

Willowy | August 12, 17:18 CET

The list includes quite a few questionable choices, but... Buffy in the number one spot? Firefly, The X-Files, and The Colbert Report included? I guess I can't complain too much.

nicola | August 12, 17:40 CET

"Buffy" is my Bible. Or it would be if Buffy had pages.

Go, Atheists!

(This message brought to you by Apollo, my Dog.)

ETA: I find it curious that the original Star Trek isn't on the list, but TNG is. While TNG took the basic concept and improved on it, it was the original series that started it all.

And "Firefly" is number 11! Let's just pretend "The Price is Right" isn't on thie list, and make "Firefly" number 10.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2007-08-12 18:12 ]

Nebula1400 | August 12, 17:56 CET

Willowy, I think we both know the answer to that question.

Enough already. Simon submitted a wonderful post, yet we managed to turn it on its ear.

Really thought we were beyond this, but guess not. Pulling out my bag of peaches and lubing up the throwing arm.

Madhatter | August 12, 18:49 CET

Me loves Buffy. Buffy good, beer bad!

Fortunatley, I'm of the wrong religion here,so cannot comment on hellfire and damnation, though that sounds like episode 145 of Buffy.

And Tara? Well, here I am at work today, taking a break from the grant that has to go to NIH tomorrow by 7pm, wearing my Willow+Tara Forever t-shirt....

I am waiting for her resurrection, you know. It IS coming. And sooner than the Great Pumpkin, too.

Dana5140 | August 12, 18:57 CET

Much though I love Buffy, of course, I very sadly have to announce The Wire as being superior..
For a long while I've been scratching my balding head trying to think of any TV better than The Wire, and can only come up with Follyfoot Farm.

Mild Mike | August 12, 18:57 CET

Or maybe Callan...

Mild Mike | August 12, 19:05 CET

Glad Buff got its props; I consider it easily the Very Best TV Show EVER, too. (No mention of the acting? Odd.) And poor, little, incomplete Firefly got a nod too!

Can't say I agree with much of the rest of the list, though. (Well, those I'm familiar with.) Brady Bunch? Puleeeeeeze! I was glad to see that Next Gen was there -- it's my fave of the Treks. Colbert, but not Daily Show?

I would include Dick Van Dyke, way up there, myself. Although they SAID they were geeky in their tastes, they had much non-geekitude, so why not DVD?

tehabwa | August 12, 20:12 CET

Lessee...
1. Buffy
2. Firefly
3. CSI: Crime Scene Investigation
4. Wonderfalls
5. Dead Like Me
6. Veronica Mars
7. ST (original)
8. Freaks and Geeks
9. L Word
10. X-Files

Dana5140 | August 12, 20:57 CET

Finally, a list with the correct NUMBER ONE!

As for Joss, he's gonna have to be in heaven, or it won't be heaven for all us Joss-fans. :)

sari | August 12, 21:02 CET

I just wish Joss'd bring Tara back. In exactly the way he said he'd do it. That'd be perfection.

Ah, no, not for me. The "Buffy's Wish" idea depends on the surprise of the big reveal, that's where the emotional hit is IMO. Knowing ahead of time I reckon it'd just be saccharine but YMMV ;).

Saje | August 12, 23:48 CET

I agree with the #1 choice completely. Buffy will always reign in my heart. That said, I love Angel just as much - I consider them a companion set, sort of. And Firefly? Also has an enduring spot in my heart. It's the Whedon trifecta for me for the top 3 spots, I'm afraid.

I agree in a way with Mild Mike on The Wire. It may be the most accomplished TV show ever. It's an amazing, amazing piece of work. But can it compete with Buffy's uncanny power, a power that transcends all the cool, canny, gorgeous brilliance of The Wire? Not for me.

phlebotinin | August 13, 00:02 CET

Somehow they skipped Get Smart! I don't understand how. Produced, created and sometimes written by Mel Brooks and Buck Henry, it was a very funny show. Shoe phone anyone?
But 3 cheers for their taste in Number one shows!

Lioness | August 13, 01:27 CET

This thread is what I imagine it must be like inside an ADHD child's head.

Talk about tangential wandering!

But Buffy's Number 1, numero uno, the big cheese, the first and bestest, the shining star atop a very big tree.

So, to quote JKR, all is well.

missb | August 13, 09:50 CET

Buffy #1 and Muppet Show #6? Not a bad list.

Sunfire | August 13, 16:35 CET

...and the parallels between Omar and Spike??

Mild Mike | August 13, 17:34 CET

August 12 2007