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September 05 2007

A tale of two Captains - or if Mal met Jack. Torchwood writers answer that age old question of what would happen if Captain Jack Harkness was aboard Serenity. All that and lots of love for Joss shows as well.

I read the headline and got mixed up. I thought of Captain Jack Sparrow. Now he would be fun on Serenity!
Yeah, I don't watch Torchwood so when I read Captain Jack I was picturing an entirely different kind of crossover. I'd pay to see that one...
Oh dear, creepy sexual predator Owen and his pheromone spray in Torchwood was a hopeless misjudgement and the writers still don't seem to be able to understand that.

Nor do they get the fundamental difference between the crew of Serenity and the members of Torchwood; the Serenity crew are actually rather good at their jobs and not a bunch of inefficient, unreliable hysterics.

Having said that, Captain Jack Harkness is a great character and Torchwood does have a bit of potential despite occasionally being pretty terrible. I hope the second season is an improvement - and James Marsters guesting, well, that's a good start.
"Oh, I know what Captain Jack would want to do with him!" Clarke laughs.

"Yeah, absolutely. He'd have the whole crew!" agrees Chibnall.


Hmm. Captain Jack and Jayne. Now there's a picture.

Captain Jack and... Book? No, that'd have to be Captain Jack and Book and God. Might get a bit crowded.

Oh, if only! There's a fantasy! Someone must be doing a fanfiction about that.

Hmm... *heads over to livejournal to see*
Didn't they already answer this with "Our Mrs Reynolds"?
Dang, like others I was thinking they meant Captain Jack Sparrow... who probably would enjoy Serenity very much, so long as there was rum.
No rum, just Mudders Milk!
Chibnall is going to the Special Hell for people who glorify their own characters via fanfic.

[ edited by Craig Oxbrow on 2007-09-05 01:03 ]
Oh dear, creepy sexual predator Owen and his pheromone spray in Torchwood was a hopeless misjudgement and the writers still don't seem to be able to understand that.

It's interesting... sometimes I just shouldn't read what the writers think. But in any case, all of the Torchwood team members have used alien artifacts for their own purposes - showing how easily corruptable they are and how enticing these things would be. Yes, Owen using this pheromone spray to attract women is very creepy, but I really though that's what they were going for - that it was a creepy thing to do. Not that it was funny.

I have no problem with them writing the character that creepy. I simply have a problem with them thinking they were being funny.
I have only seen the pilot of Torchwood and I gotta say that I am quite open minded (I am pretty, pretty gay) but the rape spray being used as a joke really put me off. I sat there thinking they are making that man who is clearly raping these people a joke, uh ok. Honestly the only thing I enjoyed about the episode was the guest star, the one who played Niobe on ROME, Indira Varma. The plot and twists for the episode were so telegraphed ahead that it was almost funny. Honestly I think Mr. Davies is the single most overrated writer around (haven't seen QaF, just going off Dr. Who). Seriously compare the episodes he wrote to the rest and if it's a bad episode he probably wrote it. For example the fart alien 2 parter compare that to the beautiful "Fathers Day" or "the Girl in the Fireplace". His love of cheesieness ruined the last 3 episodes of the 3rd season. He's a good show runner but an awful script writer. Wow that was unexpected.
Back to topic Captain Jack is adorable and I would love to watch him come on to the crew of Serenity one by one and see who he actually got.
Ack, amoral PK hacks, besmirching Firefly for the sake of promoting that Touchwoody show. Cussing and fornication in lieu of dialog and innuendo. If Captain Mal met Captain Jack he would kick his effulgence posterior off the ship and set sail for better written shores.
"Oh dear, creepy sexual predator Owen and his pheromone spray in Torchwood was a hopeless misjudgement..."

...rape spray...


Rape Spray??
Oh, come now. You can't possibly be serious.
Owen's NOT exactly a "sexual predator". He's a bloke that goes to pick-up joints to get laid. Regularly. It's all he's interested in. (Until the 10th episode...)
Of course Owen's going to use that pheromone spray.
HE'S A WANKER.
No one's mentioned that when the woman's boyfriend shows up and is wanting to tear Owen a new asshole for running off with his woman, Owen uses the spray again...and the guy snogs Owen's face off...and Owen runs away leaving the two of them to fight while he makes a quick getaway!
That scene is part of a series of scenes (featuring Owen and the rest of the team) that happen while Jack is telling Gwen about the alien technology and how it's never supposed to leave headquarters...which, unbeknownst to him, it does and with disasterous consequences.
But watch the whole season. Owen, and everyone else in the show...even Gwen Cooper...has their shortcomings, secrets and faults. But they're still heroes.
I've seen the entire first season and I think the acting is stellar and a joy to watch. And I don't know about anyone else, but I like the writing.
I read somewhere that the creators of Torchwood were told that their show was too sophisticated for U.S. audiences.
I must say that I agree wholeheartedly.
"Ohmygod...he's using RAPE SPRAY!!!"
Lord, have mercy. We're a nation of 5th graders.
That's my opinion...and I'm stickin' with it.

Oh, and Captain Jack on board Serenity?
Mmmmmmmm....now that would be interesting.
But he and River would only have conversations.
I think after Jack's been on board for awhile, she'd go to him and say: "You know, Jayne is quite unsettled. He finds you very attractive...and he doesn't know why."

[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2007-09-05 04:12 ]
On the one hand I think theMidnighter is being a bit harsh -- having seen QaF and Bob & Rose, I feel that Russell T. Davies is capable of good writing, and simply doesn't live up to his own potential half the time. And I defy you not to have cried just a little during the last two episodes of S1 Torchwood. On the other hand, it's true that some of the best Doctor Who episodes are penned by people like Steven Moffat, and not Davies.

(And yes to whomever was lamenting Chibnall -- all the very worst Torchwood episodes are written by him. I'm not sure what's wrong with that guy.)

All that said, I do think that Gwen would actually be the most interesting character to place into the Firefly 'verse -- imagine the sort of interactions she'd have with Kaylee or Simon! I don't even mean in a smutty way. I just think she's a rather interesting character. And rather than compare Jack and Mal, I'd rather compare Jack and Jayne -- I think personality-wise they have more in common.
Good lord... this thread has done more than all the giddy fan praise and hype put together to make me ALMOST interested in checking out this show.

It'll still never happen... but almost. I confess to a modicum of intriguedness.
Thank you, Amazon girl.
Was gonna chip in, but Pumps said it.
I read somewhere that the creators of Torchwood were told that their show was too sophisticated for U.S. audiences.

Oh, I really hope that's not true, you guys have nukes after all ;).

Rape Spray??
Oh, come now. You can't possibly be serious.


Really don't see the issue here. If it came in the form of a liquid and he'd actually had to spike people's drinks rather than using a spray would that have made the parallels to GHB or Rohypnol obvious enough ?

If they can be termed "date rape drugs" then what Owen used surely was too, it couldn't be more clear cut for me. Still, fair play, sexual assault can be really funny. Oh wait ...

(note I don't mind him being a wanker, actually posted on the .org that I enjoyed that aspect, but you can't shake the devil's hand and then say you were only kidding - if it's because he's flawed then leave it at attempted rape, don't try to write it off as a joke)

See, the show presents itself as adult but then when people actually treat it that way and assess it as adults, it ends up trivialising serious issues and generally not achieving any degree of sophistication ("tits and ass" don't make a show adult IMO).

Load of old toss IMO but obviously it's horses/courses and in fairness, despite many assurances from folk on here that it gets better, I still haven't found the time to watch past episode 7, "Greeks Bearing Gifts" i.e. the one where we find out Tosh is a complete idiot - nice bit of character development that ;) - and that nobody learned anything from Yanto nearly dooming us all - see, it's the serial nature of the show that really makes it ;).

That said, when the time-fairies grant my wish i'll probably see it through for completion's sake (and because i'll be watching at least parts of S2 for JM and for the appearance of Martha Jones).
"I read somewhere that the creators of Torchwood were told that their show was too sophisticated for U.S. audiences."

Told by whom? The writers on Hee Haw?

Oh, pul-eez, pull the other one. I survived watching "Cyberwwoman" but I'm pretty sure it wasn't its alleged sophistication that made the experience so painful...

*shivers, remembering...*

Not venturing far into the world of "What If Torchwood Dated The Serenity Crew." I'd like to still respect myself in the morning. I'd just like to suggest that I think it would require the use of "rape spray."

*shudders*

I've watched all of the first season, and there's a couple of episodes I do sorta like okay - "They Keep Killing Suzie" and "Random Shoes" come to mind - but the only real connection I can make between Firefly and Torchwood is that they both use words written in English.
I kind of feel that "Cyberwoman" should be repressed like some awful secret - Never. Mentioned. Again. I know this kind of behaviour is regarded as pretty unhealthy but sometimes there is no alternative.

"They Keep Killing Suzie" was imo the best episode of the bunch, it gave me a slight hope for the future, that, my natural optimism and the forthcoming appearances of James M and Freema A...

John Barrowman is charming, Burn Gorman and Eve Myles are brilliant actors, the concept is intriguing and fun, so where has Torchwood been going wrong?

I think it is at least partly the writers inability to distinguish between "adult" and "grown-up" - their failure to understand that people might find expediting sex (at best) or coercing sex (at worst) by the use of alien technology less than great comedy value is a perfect example of that.
Where's it been going wrong?

It's boring and the writers aren't nearly as good as they think they are.

I'm not sure I'd still be with Dr Who if they didn't have Moffat.
And Tennant of course. Yeah that's why. He could read the telephone book and be good to watch.
Oh, well. At least they have this second season to iron out the wrinkles. Top rated show on the channel it aired on and having just won a Best New Drama award, it must be doing something right.

Can't wait for the show to come back in January. JM and JB are going to be terrific on screen together. *happy sigh*
Assuming you mean the "TV Quick and TV Choice" award JuliaL I think that says more about the general viewing public (who voted for the awards) than the show itself personally but, hey, i'm glad someone's enjoying it (i'd hate for that portion of my licence fee to be a total waste of money ;).

(that's the same general public that make 'The Sun' Britain's best-selling daily newspaper, BTW. Nowt as queer as folk as they say ;)
Saje Yes I am. Are the viewing public not good enough to judge? Industry awards are too political imo. Ultimately the viewing public are the only ones that matter. There are no advertisers on the BBC. I think to dismiss the general public like that is kind of rude, imo.

Also, I sincerely doubt that the Sun readers and TW viewers would have much of a crossover.

If people don't like a show, good for them. Be as critical of the show as you like. But to insult people who for whatever reason do like the show is uncalled for.

I mean, when Browncoats get insulted they are rightfully up in arms about it. So why is okay to insult viewers of other shows because they like and support it.
Be as critical of the show as you like. But to insult people who for whatever reason do like the show is uncalled for.

I'm not insulting anyone (or not intending to anyway, sorry if you took it badly), i'm just saying that millions of people like e.g. 'Coronation Street' and I don't. I.e. people like different things and very often for reasons I can't fathom (hence my "Nowt as queer as folk" comment which was also an attempted jokey reference to RTD's involvement in 'Torchwood'). I'm certain they'd think the same of some of my likes and dislikes.

And I don't think the general public are inferior in any way (I am, after all, generally public myself ;) but I also don't think we're in any way arbiters of quality (millions of them/us - I think it's about 4 - buy 'The Sun' every day but by most other measures IMO - accuracy, objectivity etc. - it's an inferior newspaper) OR that awards given by "the people" are necessarily more valid measures of merit than other kinds.

If I mustered opposing millions (or however many people voted for the TV Choice award) that claim 'Torchwood' is the worst programme ever made would that make it so ? Not IMO, just as awards given by millions (or however many voted) don't mean it's not (or indeed prove anything else, except many people liked it, stop the presses ;) - or possibly, as we've seen ourselves, that a relatively few people liked it a whole lot because I don't know how the vote was managed, whether multiple votes were possible etc. Having stuffed a few ourselves as a fandom makes me leery of polls ;).
I feel the same way about polls, Saje. I'm fact anything that credits value or merit based on a voting model which allows for multiple votes is pretty inconclusive IMO (ahem, I'm looking at you American Idol).
Saje Actually yes I did take it as an insult. When you couple voters in favour of TW with Sun readers I take that as a massive insult. I appreciate it was not your intention to insult, but it was the result.

I never said that public support equals quality. I did say it must be doing something right to be supported in this way. And when I say "people who for whatever reason do like the show" I'm not infering that they all think it's good. Sometimes people like things because "they're so bad, they're good". I wouldn't assume to speak for the masses.

I agree with your point about polls. We know that much stuffing of ballots has been done on the internet for all fandoms. So if we are to discount this one then should we not discount them all.

Anyway, my initial post was a positive one and I'd like to keep this thread that way. I personally think the show is okay. I hope it will improve. I'm just glad that the viewing figures were high enough to enable the show to be renewed, and that the public support is there.
silvius: "I kind of feel that 'Cyberwoman' should be repressed like some awful secret - Never. Mentioned. Again. I know this kind of behaviour is regarded as pretty unhealthy but sometimes there is no alternative."

:>

Let's never speak of it again, and let the subsequent neurosis/psychosis fall where it may. Some things actually improve with burial... like compost.
Or Truffles. Hell, i've repressed that string of grisly suicides I committed in my past lives, a single TV episode should be chickenfeed.

And after "Cyberwoman" I can start working on "Countrycide". And then "Greeks Bearing Gifts". ;-).

So if we are to discount this one then should we not discount them all.

Yeah, I agree, I think we should (except as jumping off points for discussions). I guess they can highlight a film/book/whatever for people that might not have heard about it but they're worthless as measures of anything meaningful.

Without dragging this on, BTW, i'd be astonished if there weren't some overlap between 'Torchwood' fans and readers of the aforementioned esteemed, ahem, organ ;) JuliaL so you totally shouldn't feel insulted (and besides, being called a Sun reader isn't an insult, that'd mean I was writing off 4 million people as somehow inferior - even more than watched 'Torchwood' ;-). Being called a typical Sun reader probably is though since that implies more than just "Someone that reads 'The Sun'").

I hope it will improve.

On that point I unreservedly agree ;).
I hope it doesn't improve - it's accidentally hilarious, and if improved much it would be merely bad.
No one's mentioned that when the woman's boyfriend shows up and is wanting to tear Owen a new asshole for running off with his woman, Owen uses the spray again...and the guy snogs Owen's face off...and Owen runs away leaving the two of them to fight while he makes a quick getaway!


See, I thought that Owen was hailing the taxi so that they could have a threesome. Which, if anything, makes it worse.

The annoying thing about Torchwood, for me, is that it has so much potential that has gone unrealised. That's why I kept watching, to see if it would actually start living up to that potential. First thing they need to do is get rid of Chris "I can write a real time episode that's not in real time" Chibnall as head writer/showrunner.
See, I thought that Owen was hailing the taxi so that they could have a threesome. Which, if anything, makes it worse.

How can a threesome ever make anything worse?
See, I thought that Owen was hailing the taxi so that they could have a threesome. Which, if anything, makes it worse.

How can a threesome ever make anything worse?

crossoverman | September 06, 03:17 CET

crossovermanAre you speaking as someone who'd want to be the party in the middle?

Me? I liked "Cyberwoman".
I liked that all's very obviously not well with the Torchwood team, and one of their trusted comrades has done something absolutely unacceptable...and is still unable to see what he's done and how dangerous it was because he's so completely in love with someone. Someone who could kill them all and start the destruction of the world.
This comes up again during the last 2 episodes of the season...and Ianto's not the only one willing to do something dangerous because of loving someone.
I found "Countryside" just wrong. Like in the X-Files episode "Home". Only...like...more wrong. And the end of that episode sets into motion future repercussions for Gwen and her boyfriend.
I'm not usually a fan of messy relationships of any kind, but I like that the show's not all nice and happy where everyone gets along.
I thought "Greeks Bearing Gifts" was heartbreaking. I'd never ever in life want to be able to hear what people are thinking about me. It broke my heart to see Tosh hear what they were thinking about her.
What I'm trying to decide is whether Tosh is bi, or whether she was just "exploring" out of loneliness. Not that it matters. But...hmmmmm.....
Well, anyway, Torchwood seems to be a dangerous and destructive thing to be involved with, on many levels, and not just to the person in the group, but to anyone involved with them.
And...well, dammit...Jack Harkness is frackin' HOT.
I'm just sayin'.
Oh, and one more thing: "Random Shoes" made me cry. Twice.

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