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September 17 2007

(SPOILER) Preview pages for 'Angel: After the Fall' #1. AICN has an exclusive look at the first 5 pages.

Awesome. Regarding Angel's new friend, I recall somebody here jokingly predicting that a couple weeks back.

Give yourself a shiny no-prize!
Intriguing peek -- I can't wait to see what's to come. (Curiously, Angel seems to come through the frenzied demonic onslaught virtually unscathed, safe for some minor damage to his shirt. Not even a bloody lip?)

I'm eagerly anticipating Illyria's entrance to the series, but it's unlikely I'll ever get over feeling robbed of the character development she might have had if Wesley hadn't died in S5. I'm wondering if Joss's stated intention to use AD any chance he could will translate indirectly to Wesley reappearing somehow in this storyline, or is my longing for some kind of W/I(F?) interaction destined to die a cold, hard death....
Is it wrong that I almost just peed myself a little from excitement?
SQUEEEEEEEEE!
Okay, third page, middle panel on the left. She says, "I don't deserve this.I'm a good person. I'm a _____"? Can't read that one word. Can anyone help me out?

[ edited by toast on 2007-09-17 10:45 ]
I think the word is "lawyer".
I think it says "lawyer."


Brian: so far so good! The dialogue is right on, and I can't wait to see the rest! (and more of the characters)
Ooh, this makes me all tingly.

Can't wait!!!
Angel befriended the dragon? Really?

See, this is why I was hesitant about post-NFA stories. Hmmm.
I don't really care how they survived as long as the do. Angel is in the clear, now how about that vampire-champion surviving?

The artwork looks great, La being sucked into hell will really weigh down on Angel's soul, that's the thing about picking huge fights,choices...they will have huge consequences.
Wow is about all I can muster at this time. This is really really good.
We got Angel back.
Well, if we back on The WB, I think they just blew the budget for the season. This is going to kick arse. Thematically I have some love for the opening panels, also.
That was prettttty awesomely cool, but... could someone tell me: (spoilers)
Im speechless.

That is so great! Oh god...november is sooo far away!
Cant formulate anything more now! Need to read and reread and will come back later

Angels back!!!!
_________________
That's just the thing, though, Jobo. W&H didn't kill Cordy, Jasmine did. And they didn't kill Fred, either (which is who immediately popped into my mind then I read that passage)... Knox did. Although in the latter case I can kinda see his point, since the argument could be made that working for W&H killed Fred...

[ edited by TBalena on 2007-09-17 13:32 ]
NekoDono said "Regarding Angel's new friend, I recall somebody here jokingly predicting that a couple weeks back."

Well, it was a lucky guess. My only thought was that (a) he wouldn't be able to beat the dragon, so (b) he'd have to reason with it to switch sides, and the best way to do that is (c) to tell the dragon his benefit package isn't so great. I mean, that's how I was persuaded to turn from the Darkness, so ipso facto and other Latin words.

And as for Los Angeles being hell.... isn't that more of a putt rather than a long drive?
That's true TBalena. At first I thought he meant Cordy but Fred makes a little more sense.

Even though it's more epic, this seems very much like Angel.
Sweet! This is gonna be so awesome. So very, very awesome.
I liked that very much. A bit confusing as to who the gorl who died is but Los Angeles being "hell", bout time. !
The only ending I was afraid of seeing involved a group of slayers swooping in at the last second to offset the balance of power. That would have ruined it for me. So all is well in the world...unless we find out that dragon is somehow a slayer. (Now if its Lockheed's big brother or something, then we have some kickass cross over possibilities!)

I've officially got my copies on-order at the shop. Let the brooding begin!
*sigh*

I'm trying. I swear, I'm really really trying. I was so opposed to the idea of this series continuing this way in the first place, and so deeply invested in my own "fanfic" imaginings that I'm worried I'm predisposed to not be satisfied with anything that comes out of this. And before anyone jumps on me, yes I KNOW that's not fair... to the writer or the story. But at the moment I can't help it.

At the moment I'm too hung up on the whole "LA as Hell has been done before" thing. Holland explained that Los Angeles WAS Hell. yeah I know, not the same
thing. An oversimplification from a fan seemingly determined not to be happy with this. I'll get over it... I hope.

Honestly, I am trying. *shrug*

On the positive side, the art is better than I was expecting.

[ edited by Haunt on 2007-09-17 15:13 ]

[ edited by Haunt on 2007-09-17 15:14 ]
The girl is Fred- when you read them right through, the thing which started with the girl is this war for LA- he joined W&H, was changed by it, THEN Fred died and he decided to fight- so this fight started with Fred.

I don't know how I feel about these yet, I was a lot more excited about Buffy S8 for some reason. I guess I'm just way more obsessed with Buffy. It does look good though.
So, Angel the Series got one more season than Buffy, so arguably the big battle was Spring 04. And that was "a while" ago, according to Angel's narration. So is this around August 04 now? And therefore around the same time that we're in for Buffy S8?

I guess my big question is: Do Buffy et al know about the whole L. A. in hell deal? I'd like to see some kind of mention of it.

I definitely think The Girl in Question (har har) is Fred. And I want to see how Angel dealt with the misled dragon. It's kind of a letdown to just skip to the bit where they're buddies.

Side note: I wonder if the dragon helps Angel chase bullies into dumpsters.

[ edited by swanjun on 2007-09-17 15:36 ]
I'm not planning on reading the Angel comics, although I had to peek in here to see how TPTB resolved the alley confrontation. Angel's befriending the dragon is certainly a surprise. Not quite sure how he could have pulled off such a remarkable conversion in the midst of an epic battle, but I'll accept it.
There really is no acceptable excuse for the two series franchises to be at two different publishers. It's absolutely unforgiveable that we can't have direct one-to-one crossovers and tie-ins. I love Brian K. Vaughan's Faith arc over in Buffy S8, but that character should be here, in LA, with her "saviour" Angel. There's no way in Hell (ANY Hell) that she wouldn't come to Angel's aid... if she knew what was happening. And that had better be the explanation, lame as it is, for why there isn't more crossover... that no one else knows what's going on in LA.
As if I weren't excited enough already, THIS is what I wake up to?! FUCKING SWEET! This comic's gonna ROCK!
*Side note: I wonder if the dragon helps Angel chase bullies into dumpsters.*

Ha Ha Ha! Is it sad I got that:)

*There really is no acceptable excuse for the two series franchises to be at two different publishers*
Well Haunt I think its more of a business thing. At the end of the day Dark Horse didnt want the Angel franchise, so IDW swooped to the rescue and got it, and has been keeping it going for the last 2 and a half years. If it wasnt for them there would be no new stories and there sure as hell wouldnt be'After the Fall'. Cos I'm damn sure that if Dark Horse still had the rights we'd be waiting a long time for any new Angel comic, because Buffy is their main interest.

So I for one am very very happy that IDW has the rights because we would not be talking about this now if it wasn't for them.
I agree with angeliclestat, though I must say that, up to the Asylum series, I REALLY didn't like the IDW comics. So in other words; If Brian's writing, I'm there! He's given me no reason to turn my back on him yet.
I understand the business involved. And perhaps someday (in the not-too-distant future I hope) I'll be as unreservedly grateful that someone swooped in to the "rescue" to continue the story. But at the moment the promise of a continuation worthy of "Not Fade Away" is still unproven.

I will gladly, eagerly apologize for my pessimism as soon as Season Six lives up to its predescessor though. I'm desperately willing to be won over, Mr. Lynch.
Haunt-

I just realised that my post looked like I was giving out to you lol - which I wasnt, so sorry bout that! Just wanted to explain the way I saw things.

I do believe we are in good hands with Lynch and IDW. I have enjoyed most of IDW's comics. Not all, but most. Just like the shows:) I always have gone into the seasons of Angel with no expectations of what 'should' happen, and have always been blown away. I've no doubt, judging by these previews, that the same will happen with Season 6.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2007-09-17 16:37 ]
Actually, I think having Los Angeles pulled into a hell dimension is a great reason as to why we WON'T see any of the Buffy characters. It's also a believable tactical response on the part of W&H. Looking forward to reading more.
I'm loving the art, the dialogue, and the LA in hell thing. I don't think I'm really on board with the dragon-riding, though. How exactly did Angel befriend the dragon? Was the dragon told that Angel was an evil vampire, and Angel actually explained to someone about his soul for once? Is Angel going to be a dragon-jockey for the whole series?

I'm very interested to see what's going on with the other characters.
* I don't think I'm really on board with the dragon-riding, though. How exactly did Angel befriend the dragon? Was the dragon told that Angel was an evil vampire, and Angel actually explained to someone about his soul for once? Is Angel going to be a dragon-jockey for the whole series?*


I think its one of those high concept things like "Why is Harmony working in Wolfram and Hart and why is Angel letting her stay and not killing her" I love the idea personally:)
Glad you guys like it.

Check out the Dragon's sneer when the lady gets too close to him in, I think, page 3. That kinda thing is why Franco rules.
High concept or no, I'm not totally on board with the dragon ex machina idea, either, because I think it does disrespect the finale a little. I'm a little more ambivalent about Angel continuing in the comic format (I would have loved a real s6 on TV), but I also cannot stand the idea of the story continuing and my not keeping up. So I'm on board. But methinks the dragon should have been slayed. Oh,well.

ETA: Well, my post sounds a little more grumbly coming right after Brian's. Brian, I actually DO like your work, despite any coincidental evidence to the contrary.

[ edited by palehorse on 2007-09-17 16:50 ]
The problem with Buffy crossovers is that Buffy S8 is concurrent with Angel S5, and the comics are already messing seriously with the continuity-as-we-knew-it. If anyone shows up in "Angel S6" then they will have to either have survived, or not been involved with, Buffy S8.
I hope Spike was standing behind that dragon when he "did the business" in that small alley...
Hasn't Buffy S8 stated that a year has gone by since the destruction of the Sunnydale hellmouth? After all, a lot seems to have happened in the interim -- setting up the castle in Scotland, recruiting and training Slayers, Dawn dating a thricewise...

That timeline means that Buffy S8 picks up after Angel S5, so the comics might actually be more or less concurrent.
Yeah, there seems to be some differences of oppinion as to the timelines here. Some swear up and down that the two shows have caught up with each other, while other cite evidence that we're still offset from one another by at least a full season.

Care to officially clarify, Mr. Lynch?
Actually, I think having Los Angeles pulled into a hell dimension is a great reason as to why we WON'T see any of the Buffy characters. It's also a believable tactical response on the part of W&H. Looking forward to reading more.
Lady Brick | September 17, 16:36 CET



That's exactly why this works for me.I would of loved to have Buffy and the slayers help out but this really gives a good reason why Buffy and her team couldn't help.I was hoping Brian and IDW would do something like this to explain why nobody from the Buffy side would be involved.I think for the fans who wanted Buffy,her friends and the slayers involved,this is the perfect way to keep them out of it.This works just right for me and gives a satisfactory reason for no Buffy characters,slayers and why the rest of the world seems normal in season 8.It also leaves the door open for a crossover story after Angel:After The Fall.I'm willing to bet we won't see a real Angel or Spike appearance in season 8 till after this story ends.Plus this doesn't mean that Brian can't make little references to Buffy and the gang if he wants just like what has been done in the previous IDW comics.



Well Haunt I think its more of a business thing. At the end of the day Dark Horse didn't want the Angel franchise, so IDW swooped to the rescue and got it, and has been keeping it going for the last 2 and a half years. If it wasnt for them there would be no new stories and there sure as hell wouldnt be'After the Fall'. Cos I'm damn sure that if Dark Horse still had the rights we'd be waiting a long time for any new Angel comic, because Buffy is their main interest.

So I for one am very very happy that IDW has the rights because we would not be talking about this now if it wasn't for them.
angeliclestat | September 17, 16:21 CET



I'm pretty sure that if Dark Horse had let the Buffy rights go,IDW would of picked those up too.


The problem with Buffy crossovers is that Buffy S8 is concurrent with Angel S5, and the comics are already messing seriously with the continuity-as-we-knew-it. If anyone shows up in "Angel S6" then they will have to either have survived, or not been involved with, Buffy S8



I'm under the opinion that season 8 starts after Angel:After The Fall.But also keep in mind that if L.A. is in hell,then time moves differently there too.

I also agree with what others have said and I think the girl in question that Angel talks about on the first page is Fred and not Cordy.

W&H didn't kill Cordy.Being possessed by Jasmine is what killed her.Jasmine was a rogue Power and had no connection to W&H and Angel knows all this.Plus Angel continued to try to use W&H's for good even after that since Cordy got him to believe in himself again.It was when Fred died that he really came to regret coming to W&H as shown in Underneath which was the very next episode after the death of Fred/birth of Illyria two parter.Fred's death was the turning point and what spurred Angel to "open his eyes" and look "underneath" the surface.

Fred would also make more sense in this regard since it was Knox who was employed by W&H,even though he was acting on his own agenda,and it was just being at W&H that got Fred killed.Gunn wanting to remain a big brained lawyer and the W&H doctor setting the whole thing up with Knox.It was after that that Angel decided he was going to make Fred's death matter and not be for nothing.It was also Fred's death that led to Underneath and Angel seeking out Lindsey to find out what W&H's real agenda was in giving him the keys to the kingdom.
I hadn't planned on reading this but I surely will, now. The dragon situation made me laugh -- not because it is funny but because laughter is our mind's way of rewarding (and encouraging) novel ideas. Joss surprised me, and I am appreciative.
Bingo, Buffyfantic, re: Fred dying.

Glad you guys liked it. I hope you guys like the rest!
Brian...any idea when the subscription pre-order will be offered for this series??? I hope it's soon.
I prefer to do the subscription right from the git go...'cause then I don't run a risk of missing an issue.
I think the only reason I'd want to see a crossover would be for a Giant Dawn/dragon teamup.
This is wonderful. I love the dragon. You have really nailed it, Brian.
I think the only reason I'd want to see a crossover would be for a Giant Dawn/dragon teamup.


Like a supersized Kitty and Lockheed?
I liked this muchly - both the words and the look.

By the way, living in L.A. as I do, it's disturbing to have my suspicions confirmed about its location. Ah, hell, I was gonna end up here anyways, I guess.

Is "snurt" to be Angel's "snickt"?
Like the dialogue, like the art, the premise intrigues, looking good. So far ;).

I don't really care how they survived as long as the do.

Wow, couldn't disagree more with this. The how is hugely important to me, there's more to great characters than simply not being dead - heroes die all the time, s'kind of their thang and more than anything else I want a great story, not just to see my favourite characters again, especially if their survival stretches the bounds of credibility to breaking point.

I can take the "dragon ex machina" (nice one palehorse ;) so long as that's not the entirety of the alley resolution (though i'd kind of respect the bravery of being so off-hand and accept the point that anything shown might struggle to live up to what we've all had in our heads, sort of like the non-Shadow wars in S4 of B5). Definitely like to see more in flashbacks or whatever though so I hope that's on the way.

If the fall is also alluding to that fall, BTW, does that make Angel the serpent in the garden, the tempter towards evil (as when he tempted the gang to join W&H) ? Or maybe a fallen Angel, actually maybe the fallen Angel as in "Paradise Lost" ? He seems to have condemned everyone to untold suffering through his actions so i'm wondering. And check this out, "Angel: After the Fall" is 12 parts right ? "Paradise Lost" has 12 books. Mere coinkidink ?

(OK, I can't leave this alone now so here's a quote from - possibly significantly - Book One of "Paradise Lost" I found when searching for stuff about the sun/moon as in the top dragon panel on page 4:
Of glory obscured: as when the sun new-risen
Looks through the horizontal misty air
Shorn of his beams, or, from behind the moon,
In dim eclipse, disastrous twilight sheds
On half the nations, and with fear of change
Perplexes monarchs. Darkened so, yet shon
Above them all the Archangel: but his face
Deep scars of thunder had intrenched, and care
Sat on his faded cheek, but under brows
Of dauntless courage, and considerate pride
Waiting revenge. Cruel his eye, but cast
Signs of remorse and passion, to behold
The fellows of his crime, the followers rather
(Far other once beheld in bliss), condemned
For ever now to have their lot in pain—
Millions of Spirits for his fault amerced
Of Heaven, and from eternal splendours flung
For his revolt—yet faithful how they stood,

So millions of spirits were punished by being put away from heaven because this Angel (the big 'S', the Host with the Most [Flies], he puts the 'Prince' in 'of Darkness', ladies and gentlemen I give you theeee Devillll ;) revolted but his followers stood faithful. Meanwhile our Angel condemned millions of people to [a] Hell [dimension] through his "revolt" but his friends stood by him. More than a passing similarity IMO. Or I have way too much time on my hands to read stuff into stuff ;).

And since no-one else has, it falls to me to say "I love Hell A !" (with apologies to Randy Newman ;).

(timeline wise, I think there's some deliberate vagueness going on - which is fine and probably necessary to avoid huge continuity nightmares - since the "S8" comics only say they take place "after the end of Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 7")
ok. i shouldn't have read that because now i just can't wait! November is so far away!
*tear*
It was never clear which side the dragon was on, just that it was in the fight. Angel wanted to kill it since it looked all scary, but that was just an assumption. He may not have had to "convince" it to do anything... maybe it's a good dragon?

Eh, I'll just wait and see :)
Saje, you're my hero. I admit I'd been well aware of the significance of the "Fall" in the title, and it's pertinence to a vampire names Angel. But considering how much I adore the story of Paradise Lost I'm deeply shamed for not having pounced on that connection sooner.

Brian Lynch, if you're weaving Milton's work into this story, you may have already won me over sir.
Or maybe a fallen Angel, actually maybe the fallen Angel as in "Paradise Lost" ? He seems to have condemned everyone to untold suffering through his actions so i'm wondering. And check this out, "Angel: After the Fall" is 12 parts right ? "Paradise Lost" has 12 books. Mere coinkidink ?


Yes. The comic book is set in the winter time, hence the title "after the fall". I suppose you could allude to Paradise Lost but it's really a seasonal thing that Joss and Brian are going with.
Which is ironic, seeing as Los Angeles doesn't even HAVE seasons.
I love the Paradise Lost idea. Nobody writes the Devil like Milton. So Brian, just say, "Uh, yeah. That's what I'm going for," and keep working it in, will ya?
Sunnydale's a crater, LA's in hell. Southern California is having a rough time.

This looks great. Can't wait to see the whole thing.
I adore this, it works perfectly for me: if Mal could get Jayne to switch sides by offering him his own room then it makes perfect sense that Angel would find the key to getting the dragon to switch sides (obviously the dragon HATES lawyers). And it is true, having Angel riding a dragon would blow the TV show's budget for the year!

I recall that Joss said that Buffy's Season 8 was taking place in 'comic book time' about a year or more after the end of Season 7. Otherwise how would Dawn be in college?
Which is ironic, seeing as Los Angeles doesn't even HAVE seasons.

Actually, I think it's probably ironic because it has a big orange "Simon" underneath it Lady Brick, never mind LA's weather patterns ;).

("Extra ! Extra ! Read all about it, Beautiful Hypothesis Slain by Ugly Fact ! Extra !" ;-)
As far as the dragon goes, "if you can't beat 'em: join 'em" might have come in to play.

But whether or not the dragon is "good" doesn't matter: Having a dragon in your arsenal has *got* to come in handy.

smart.
It's not really a seasonal thing we're going after, unless someone is leaving me out of the loop. Wait, now I'm confused as to why it's called AFTER THE FALL.
I think Simon was being a smartass.
I bet Spike turns up in issue 2 with a bandaged ankle. Turns out he fell over. And since this is set after that ...

That's my back-up guess if the Milton stuff doesn't pan out.
Angel and his comrades fight evil while enjoying a picturesque foliage tour...

genius.

Personally, I'm a bit confused by this whole L.A. sucked into a hell dimension thing. It's a rather large 'break' from our reality if you know what I mean. I'm a little thrown. But I guess if Joss can suck entire town into a hellmouth and have giants...

[ edited by kerfuffle on 2007-09-17 23:19 ]
I also figured Simon was being a smartass. I myself was aiming for smartass support.
Like smart pants you mean ?

Pants that can tell when your bum's cold and turn on the heating automatically. Now they've got legs.
I think Simon was being a smartass.

I had to read his comment several times, but I think I agree with you. Sarcasm is sometimes hard to read here.
I think Simon was being a smartass.


Not true! Well actually it is.

Anyhow moving on. Regarding the "After the fall" title, remember the Robert Browning quote "we fall to rise"? For me that's the resonating theme for Angel, he's fallen so many times in the past but he's always come back. But I have a feeling this will be his biggest challenge to date. Which means the inevitable Angel guilt that always makes for quality drama. And who knows, maybe this time around his efforts to save the day will get recognised by the Powers That Be.
"I think Simon was being a smartass."

...and I think Brian Lynch was too. There seems to be a lot of that going around around here. tsk tsk ;-)

I don't know how I am going to feel about any of this in the long run, but in the short run I want to read more.

By the time this comes out, my head cold should be cleared up and I can concentrate on Paradise Lost debates. For now I am going to lie down with happy thoughts of Angel flying a dragon through pretty leaves.
"I think Simon was being a smartass."

I just wanted to say that too. ;)
I, for one, would rather be viewed as a smartass than a dumbass. I suspect I'm not alone in that opinion. ;-)
I just think the art is especially effective, it has a kind of lyric flow to it, and lots of subtle touches. Good atmosheric color too-which must be hard to accomplish within the comics limitations.

I'm not so sure about your hotseat Smart(y)pants concept, Saje. The possibilities for malfunction are many. Falling from Grace is one thing, falling drawers another sort of story altogether..
I, for one, would rather be viewed as a smartass than a dumbass.

From experience, I can tell you that the line between the two is so thin as to be essentially fictitious.
Simon said: "And who knows, maybe this time around his efforts to save the day will get recognised by the Powers That Be."

Or, you know, by the Scoobies.

Yes, I'm still bitter about that phone call to Giles in season five. Elitist bastard!
Sidenote: Man, the people that post on AICN are real dicks, huh?

Yeesh.
TBalena-

The AICN talkbacks are one of the many cesspools of the internets. They're hardly ever even good for a laugh.

Kevin Smith had a very thinly veiled subplot in his Jay and Silent Bob movie entirely about tracking those people down and kicking the shit out of them.

[ edited by NekoDono on 2007-09-18 01:37 ]
I love that movie...
theonetruebix: "From experience, I can tell you that the line between the two is so thin as to be essentially fictitious."

Heh. At the very least, wafer thin.

Um, from experience and proclivity.

One who never turned his back but marched breast forward,
Never doubted clouds would break,
Never dreamed, though right were worsted, wrong would triumph.
Held we fall to rise, are baffled to fight better,
Sleep to wake.
- Robert Browning, “Epilogue,”
Asolando
I like it.
I don't LOVE it, but my expectations are sky high and I concede that I need to wait 'til the first issue is in my greedy little hands before I start gushing and dancing around. (Oh,pretty please?!)

And since it seems to be obligatory to post interpreted references the meaning of 'After the Fall', here's 2 for you to mull over.
* There is an Australian band called 'After the Fall'. The title of one of their albums- 'Always Forever Now'. (Oh and shippers, please keep sailing!)
* 'After the Fall' is an Arthur Miller play. The plot takes place inside the mind of the protagonist, characters and occurrences appear and reappear non-lineally as the protagonist remembers them.

Or you know, Brian could just,like, make up his own stuff. ;-)
*Sidenote: Man, the people that post on AICN are real dicks, huh*

You know I was expecting a lot worse. But overall it was actually very positive.

Im still jumping for joy at the preview.Just so so happy.
Brian is NOT allowed to make stuff up, 'cause that's like another word(s?) for lying!!!
Regarding the comments about the AICN talkbackers. It's one of our golden rules that we don't comment on what people say on the comments sections of other sites, no matter how much we disagree with them.
Just to keep up the After the Fall references. Angels who fall end up in hell, or where they are is hell. As Mephistophilis (a fallen angel) tells Faustus in Marlowe's great play -

FAUSTUS. And what are you that live with Lucifer?

MEPHISTOPHILIS. Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer,
Conspir'd against our God with Lucifer,
And are for ever damn'd with Lucifer.

FAUSTUS. Where are you damn'd?

MEPHIST. In hell.

FAUSTUS. How comes it, then, that thou art out of hell?

MEPHIST. Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it:
Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells,
In being depriv'd of everlasting bliss?



Probably not all that enlightening - but always nice to be able to quote a bit of Marlowe....

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