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October 06 2007

About those Serenity 2 Rumors - AICN. Hercules gives his take on the Alan Tudyk phone interview with moviehole.net.

But...that's not confusing. Clearly, the "another one" refers to the Collector's Edition, but "do another movie" can't really mean "do another release of the same movie we already made." I'm not sure what Herc thinks he's saying.

Plus, in the full stories, Alan goes on to explicitly discuss a sequel, not a...nother DVD.
I think the Big Purple will probably want to make Goners before anything else, cause that's the closest to a sure thing as I understand it. The man said so hisself, that he's tired of having a million things in development and nothing coming to light.
And now there's also Reaper in development.

Also, it could very well be more wishful thinking on alan's part.

That said, Firefly and Serenity seem to be selling like hotcakes, so a DTV sequel does seem like a logical choice at this point...

Joss, methinks it's time to chime in good sir! :)

[ edited by lordsketch on 2007-10-06 00:26 ]
It's pretty scary to think that Herc, of all people, will end up being the voice of reason about this rumor.
Herc's take is a very confused reading of the interview (and that's speaking as someone who's very skeptical about sequel chances).

The "other one" is definitely the CE DVD but it's also true that Alan (as quoted) didn't say the Collector's Edition is "selling so hot", he says that of the original DVD, which is why they released a special edition in the first place (apologies if someone's already pointed this out in the other thread).

[ edited by Saje on 2007-10-06 00:29 ]
Yeah, I agree with what you guys are saying. I just posted it because it seemed like something people would want to read, take it down if it's not necessary.
Wow, way to muddy the already opaque waters, Herc. He's only the voice of reason if you squint your eyes and don't pay attention to the Alan quotes.

Don't think this says anything either pro or con about the likelihood of a sequel - just adds confusion to the moviehole article reading - which didn't seem to require a lot of interpretation in the first place - just verification, which is key and is still wanting...


ETA: Sorry, theyarescientists, we posted around the same time... It's understandable that you posted it, since Herc is such a Whedon-fan...

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2007-10-06 00:58 ]
Sorry, but I didn't take any stock in that interview. I don't even believe it was Alan. I just can't believe for a minute he would be saying anything about doing another movie, meaning a sequel to Serenity, meaning a completely new movie. If it were true, Joss would be the one delivering the news. AND, he would probably come here first. Because yes, we are that damned important.


;)
I'm just taking it all with a grain of salt. As people have said- "We're trusting the word of the dead guy??"

Though by Herc's reasoning, that means we get to shell out for yet another DVD release. Brace yourself for Serenity- The Ultimate Collection!

Perhaps it'll feature Joss playing with and voicing a whole bunch of figures, against a background of blue gloved hands, with a couple of musical numbers. The highlight being Kaylee's showstopper "This Washer Don't Fit Without Wash."

(And is it weird that I would shell out big $$$ to actually see that?)
*sigh*

This AICN is not a clarification. Just goes to show how emotions are gettin' in the way of reading the actual words.

I took the interview with Alan as a very positive sign that the sales of the Collector's Edition DVD are doing just what we were hoping they would do... further demonstrate that there's a vital, enthusiastic audience out there for the 'Verse, and coin to be made. The successful sales are not lost on Universal, and they are moving closer to getting serious about more Serenity.

This is very positive and certainly worth being happy about... but not quite the same as definite word of a greenlight on the next project. So it's very good news, even promising news... just not orgasmic news...

So we do what we always do... Keep supporting the DVDs, boost the sales, and prove that there's plenty of life in the ol' 'Verse yet.
It's a plain reading of the original article that "let's do another one" is in reference to producing the CE DVD. It's also a plain reading that "And now… there’s now a chance there’s going to be another movie" is, well, obviously about another movie.

Obviously, I've already expressed my deep skepticism that Alan knows anything other than the general notion that CE DVD sales could in theory lead to renewed interest in a new movie, and aren't a reflection of any inside information he has of a more firm variety.

But on the subject at hand -- AICN and its reading of the original quotes -- Herc's just wrong. And it's one thing to be wrong when a statement is unclear, but Alan's statements (even as "sound and fury signifying nothing" as I think they are) are blatant and hard to misinterpret if one knows how to read.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2007-10-06 06:55 ]
One thing that bothers me about what some people are saying is, because Wash died in the movie, they seem to think there's no way he could possibly know anything about a potential sequal. It's not as though upon the death of his character, Alan was completely cut off from Joss and all ties to the Firefly/Serenity franchise. If anyone connected to the show/movie had heard anything about a sequal, there's a good chance Alan would be in the loop. Also, Joss has publicly stated a number of times that if there are more movies, EVERYONE is coming back, including Alan and Ron.
The operative words from Herc's "comment" being: "I'm guessing"?
I think what Universal really thinks of Serenity can be found here.
Yeesh...

On one hand that low priced 3 disc package has the 'bargain bin let's move 'em out' look to it. But then again it could be a way to cross pollinate the audiences for these movies. There definitely is a 'futuristic anti-evil government hot chick kicking butt' theme going on there.

Now we know there was a lot more to Serenity than just River's preternatural fight-dancing, but if that gets new people to check out the DVD then they'll get treated to all the rest of the awesomeness. The price for this disc set is so attractive, it could bring in a lot of new fans to the 'Verse. This set is like a promotional package.
Whereas this one must be related by the extensive first-person sequences in 'Serenity', the Space marines angle or the fact that parts of it were set in an alternate dimension. Ahem ;).

Still, if it sells more it sells more I guess, it's not like low quality is infectious ;).

"We're trusting the word of the dead guy??"

Ah, but dead men tell no lies, ergo, thusly and therefore, the sequel's totally on.

And what's with all the deadism anyway ? Many, many people from all walks of life are dead, seems unfair to tar them all with the same brush.
The price for this disc set is so attractive, it could bring in a lot of new fans to the 'Verse. This set is like a promotional package.

Exactly, 11thHour. It's perfectly normal for a DVD that's been out for over a year -- nearly 2 now! -- to be released in a multidisc package. Hopefully lots of people will buy it because they know about Milla Jovovich and they'll watch our movie and get addicted and go out and buy the CE. :D

At least it makes a lot more sense than Serenity teamed up with the Chronicles of Riddick!
Saje ~ Whereas this one must be related by the extensive first-person sequences in 'Serenity', the Space marines angle or the fact that parts of it were set in an alternate dimension. Ahem ;).

*grin*

There's that... although this snippet from the other film's blurb, "a legion of nightmarish creatures" made me wonder if there was some kind of Reaverish tie-in too... heh...

Point well taken about the deadism attitude of some posters. After all, don't the 'previously alive' folk gain an extra level of perception from their travels on other plains of existence?

Yep, it's no rumor. It's advance knowledge from on high, with confirmation to follow... eventually...

cabri ~ At least it makes a lot more sense than Serenity teamed up with the Chronicles of Riddick!

... altough, there is that connection with Alexa Davalos (who played Gwen on Angel) having a role in Riddick. There's a Whedonverse connection, and she does kick some butt, while looking hot doing it. ;-)

Good additional point about the practice of bundling multi-disc packages from DVDs that have been out for a while. Plus, I'm wondering if this is a way to move a big pile of regular DVDs to make way for a UK Serenity Collector's Edition?

Hmmmmmm....
Trouble is when Joe Bloggs goes into a DVD store and sees Serenity packaged with two of the worst genre films in living memory, he might wonder about how good Serenity really is.
Ah, so it is like low quality is infectious ? Damn.

(possible I suppose though at least they were big budget releases - if 'Serenity' ever ended up on one of those cheapy 10 Sci-Fi DVDs for a tenner packages then we'd have real cause for consternation)
Zeppo said:

Joss has publicly stated a number of times that if there are more movies, EVERYONE is coming back, including Alan and Ron.


Hmm, I thought. Then I remembered Joss wrote Alien Resurrection, so anything is possible.
I've been thinking a lot how Joss could bring Wash back. There's the ever-popular 'evil twin', the tried and true 'messing with the timeline', or the hacked to death 'it was all a dream' - but no.

I've decided the only respectful Wash re-emergence would have to be a clone. I could get behind that. It's futuristic, and it would still actually be Wash.

Unless of course, Joss's brilliance comes up with a totally new thingy that I haven't possibly considered. And it would be cool, and deep, and meaningful.
Or if Wash's essence was within River, sort of like Fred was within Illyria. Wouldn't that pull some mind games on Zoe and Mal?
Or if he was not on the ship but in the ship 'Hatter ? ;)

Yeah, sadly ( ;) the very night after getting home from seeing 'Serenity' I started dreaming up ways to bring Wash back. Really, the only vaguely plausible way is as a clone but even then of course, you wouldn't have Wash, you'd just have a guy that looked a lot like him (cos the clone wouldn't have Wash's memories and experiences).

The way I see it, Wash was a pilot (who went to a flight academy) but seemingly hadn't been in the war or in the armed forces which means he might come from money (flying lessons have to cost a fair bit right ?) so maybe his family have this insurance policy which involves clones (this way, even Wash himself might not necessarily know about it, especially if there was maybe some estrangement for some reason).

Never really found a way around the required consciousness transfer though, if there was what amounts to immortality in the 'verse (even if just for the rich) I think it'd have such an effect on society that we'd have heard about it.

(AFAIK Joss intended to "bring him back" with flashbacks or possibly by making a prequel instead)
I must ask this question to the room. If a Serenity sequel is made, why the insistence that Wash be involved? I understand he's a beloved character, but Joss has killed them off before. Forgive me, that came out wrong. Do you feel his character is required for Joss to continue the arc of the story? I'm really curious.
Re: all the "We're trusting the word of the dead guy" comments and reliability thereof -- er, so far as I know, Alan Tudyk is still alive (I sure hope so anyway). If the interview had been with Wash, that would be a different story. Alan Tudyk -- alive guy. As trustable as any other alive guy with an opinion who has been involved in the 'Verse but whose words do not appear as fiery glyphs -- fiery purple glyphs -- purple glyphs -- purple letters.
Since we all know Zoe is pregnant with Wash's child, I think it likely that any Wash involvement will come in the form of flashbacks, memories, possibly a holovid diary or message to his wife, etc.
Well Saje, most of attraction and attachment is because of biological chemistry. Since a Wash clone would be made up of Wash's same chemicals, chances are that he and Zoe would still hook up, given the right set of circumstances. The rest of Wash's consciousness transfer could be gleaned from Wash's diaries. There would be wild variations, and some personality differences, though. And there's really no way to pinpoint what would end up where, so the science of it gets confusing.

Joss would find a way around the science! I have faith!

(Oh, and my 'messing with the timeline' was meant to include flashbacks and prequels, too! ;)
Well Saje, most of attraction and attachment is because of biological chemistry. Since a Wash clone would be made up of Wash's same chemicals, chances are that he and Zoe would still hook up, given the right set of circumstances.

Romance is dead.
Long live romance ! Oh, wait ...

Joss would find a way around the science! I have faith!

He usually does (his main method being "Look, over there ! Something cool !" ;).

In reality though, everything you've experienced from 0 yrs old to now has shaped and [in]formed who you are, literally molded your brain, altered how you respond to the world - you don't get that from a diary or from other people's reminiscences, you get it by living that life. Without a direct transfer of some sort, Wash is gone.

BUT there's mileage in *waves hands about societal awareness of immortality* e.g. having an "old recording" taken before he met Zoe and then watching them fall in love anyway/again - a la "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" (that's not new to me BTW, read a great book years ago called "Voice of the Whirlwind" by Walter Jon Williams about a guy who's resurrected with an out of date "consciousness" and has to find out how/why his "alpha" was killed. Lots of metaphysics about identity and purpose with a healthy dose of zen, appropriately enough - if we had actual reincarnation i'd probably be a Buddhist too ;).

If a Serenity sequel is made, why the insistence that Wash be involved?

Oh, he doesn't need to be at all 'Hatter, in that sense he's no different to any other dead character (Anya, Tara etc.) it's just that Joss has said in interview that if there were a sequel he'd find a way for both Alan and Ron to appear if they wanted to. If not for that, i'd just assume Wash wouldn't be in it and that'd be that.
I won't be holding my breath, but I'll be keeping my fingers crossed. It's such a remote possibility, and would require a lot of people making different decisions for everything to align correctly, but there is the smallest chance there could be some form of a sequel.

Although compromises may need to be made- obviously the ideas of direct-to-DVD and TV films have been mentioned and may be much more profitable than a theatrical film, and I think it's possible it could work out better that way.

I think it's probably fair to say that the Serenity DVD has increased the size of the fanbase significantly than only those who watched Firefly. It seems like the film's theatrical run was only really supported by Firefly fans and a fairly small number of those who had heard positive reviews or word-of-mouth about the film. But like so many films have done before, it seems to have gained a new lease of life on DVD as more and more people have decided to finally see that film they read or heard about.

Even though this is encourgaging, I doubt that Universal would want to pump the same kind of money into a sequel, unless the DVD sales were phenomenal. It sounds like they've been healthy, but not such a surprise that it's been hanging around the top 10 in the sales for months and months.

So I think it's probably safe to say that something with a slightly lower budget would be more likely, and of course releasing straight to DVD means the film will be released in the format which is most likely to accumulate high sales and generate a fan base, because we already know that the theatrical run for Serenity wasn't a huge earner, and I don't think the sales are so astounding that they can be sure of performing better at the box office second time around.

But I also think that the idea of a direct to DVD movie or TV movie has a lot more potential for the future. A movie trilogy would have been fantastic, sure, but how many of us have also commented that we would still have missed the long term investment of a TV series, the characters and plots developing over a number of episodes rather than the entire story being introduced and resolved within a 2 hour period.

I think that the idea of a TV movie would be a really good idea, because it could open the door for future instalments or a return to a series format (think of the Battlestar Galactica miniseries). Of course, there are problems with this idea- obviously there would need to be a network who wants to pay for it, and I'm not entirely sure how the rights are held at the moment- Fox still owns the rights to Firefly but Universal holds those for Serenity?

There's also the fact that Joss may not want to return to TV, having been bitten with Firefly and then Angel. But I think it's a positive thing that there is still interest in the Fireflyverse, and that someone out there may see profit in producing some form of Joss' vision.

I honestly think that Sci-Fi could make a success of Firefly, after seeing how Battlestar Galactica has thrived. A miniseries which led to four terrific seasons, and a DVD movie? Being able to finish the show on their own terms, rather than being cut short? A network which obviously understands their show and is willing to give it a chance to become a success? The only problem is of course Fox still owning the rights to Firefly. But isn't it possible that the Serenity format could be used?

I'm really just theorizing at the moment and I know many of the options I've mentioned are extremely unlikely at best, but it's exciting to at least hope for the best, even though any such project would take quite some time to be finalised before filming could even start.

I'm also aware that the cast have moved on to other work, although I'm sure if any of them could be involved they probably would, given the sense of camraderie that they seemed to share. Nathan Fillion and Summer Glau are of course involved in TV shows at the moment, but I don't think it's out of the question to suggest that Nathan's stint on Wisteria Lane may only last a season or so, if the longevity of previous guest stars and the average murder rate in Desperate Housewives is anything to go by.
Long live romance! Oh, wait...

No, think you nailed it on the head. Wouldn't that be the next step in this story? Gosh, what I would give to see another Joss scriped show on television. It would be grand.
And is that who I think it is...
I don't know if anyone has posted this already cos the other thread seems to have gone. I'm at the Starfury convention in London right now and had the opportunity to ask Morena directly about this and she said that she hadn't heard anything about a sequel.

[ edited by Cider on 2007-10-06 22:53 ]
Cheers for that Cider, pity but not a surprise (though, to put the best light on it, I guess nobody really thought it was a sequel, just slightly heightened hope for one, which still may be true).

And enjoy the rest of your evening (don't drink anything I wouldn't drink - seriously, I have pretty low standards ;-).
Ultraviolet and Resident Evil 2? Wow, harsh. If watching Milla Jovovich kick people in the face is not enough to save your movie, then your movie is really bad. Why can't they make a good movie where she kicks people in the face?
She did! It was called The Fifth Element.
How about an evil clone named "Dry". Or possibly "Spin-Cycle".

(groan)
No one's mentioned flashbacks as a way for Wash to return? Because that's the only idea that makes much sense to me.
*cough* upthread *cough*

;-)
I kinda like the idea of GhostWash...;)
Well, in MY head, Wash was off on a top secret flying mission, and Mr Universe replaced him with a robot for the entire movie.
'Cept the gang didn't know.
So in the next movie, Wash is just gonna pop out from behind a rock and be like "Why you all so sad?" and much squeeeing will ensue.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
There are worse fates than finding oneself sandwiched between Milla Jovoviches. I'm just saying.
Okay, if Wash gets the clone/robot/ghost stuff, Book gets the - not necessarily even evil - twin, who shows up, confuses everyone for a spell, and perhaps sheds some light on Shepard's shady past... More Ron Glass! More Ron Glass! Shepard Bookly if possible, but even if not!
Found this link on the home page of imdb.com

http://www.cinematical.com/2007/10/04/are-plans-for-serenity-2-in-the-works/

So, does this make you giggle with schoolgirl-like glee? If so, keep picking up those DVDs and we might just see Serenity fly again! But heck, they could even keep the ship docked the entire time and show a lot of Summer Glau butt-kicking. Who wouldn't be up for more of that!?

Like the writer said. "Keep picking up those DVDs".
Well, since some are speculating on scenarios that allow the entire cast to return intact... my turn...

Serenity was River's dream.

The events that took place in the movie were River's way of exorcising the terrible secret which has tortured her for so long. Her dream is a mix of true life experiences combined with dream representations. The Operative represents the specter of the Alliance which haunts her constantly. The two deaths fulfill the sacrifice demanded to achieve a truly mythic accomplishment. She annihilates the "scary monsters" of her nightmares triumphantly, saves the crew, and most of all, is able to save Simon as he saved her. Her dream allows her to cleanse herself of the secret, and become a trusted, useful member of the crew... and best of all, our crew of 9 are still alive and with us to tell more stories.

(Though River wanting to observe her brother and Kaylee getting all hot and bothered in the engine room opens up a whole 'nother set of psychological issues, which can be addressed at a later time.)

Note: Even though Serenity was a dream, River still can take people out in that preternatural fight-dancing way of hers in real life. All her psychic abilities and combat training are real, so there's plenty of awe inspiring fight moves still to come.

And as final proof that Serenity was a dream ~ River has been wanting to beat up Jayne ever since Ariel...
11thHour,

And in Firefly episode: Objects in Space

Mal:
Am I dreaming?

River:
We all are.

from Firefly The Official Companion Volume Two

[ edited by Anonymous1 on 2007-10-07 09:53 ]
Err, we're not seriously considering the "It was all a dream" scenario, surely ? I think avoiding that "resolution" is like the Zeroth rule of writing ;).

(River also says "No power in the verse can stop me". Should we take that literally too ? So she can withstand e.g. nuclear explosions ?)
Anonymous1, thank you for the quote. Perhaps River has known something all along on the dreaming angle...

Saje ~ Well, when it comes to finding a way to restore both characters, the dream scenario does the job. Also, it's not really a dream, it's a sp'dream, those are way different and totally plausible. ;-)

All the characters are so great, the casting is magic, and the chemistry between them all is a rare thing. Firefly's untimely ending cheated us all out of the stories to be told. Still would be wonderful to see some of those stories, before the characters start meeting their tragic, inevitable deaths.

If anyone can take an storytelling device like "it was all a dream", reimagine it, and elevate onto a new, surprising level, it's that Whedon guy.

(River also says "No power in the verse can stop me". Should we take that literally too ? So she can withstand e.g. nuclear explosions ?)

Nothing is ever destroyed, it is only changed. Perhaps River would pull an Obi Wan ~

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

So yeah, the nuclear explosion would alter her physical existence, but then she'd be all incorporeal and float around... seek out and melt into Serenity... and then she would be the ship!

Now does the sp'dream scenario seem reasonable by comparison? ;-)
Yep, come back sp-dream all is forgiven ;).

If River can do magic like Obi Wan then maybe she could just make Wash re-appear, possibly in a big box of some description ? ;)

(and patterns are destroyed, their structure is what they are, changing them, by definition, destroys them. People are patterns IMO, change them too much - and "nuclear explosion" is a pretty handy definition of "too much" ;) - and you destroy them)

Slightly more seriously though, it does raise a question i've wondered about i.e. if River can be psychic, how much other "magic" is allowed in the Sereniverse ? Why not incorporeal consciousness and all that other baloney (IMO ;) ?
...or, in a twist, the sequel will be the dream sequence.
(River will still beat Jayne up - 'cause that never gets old)
Saje, if you wanna go with magic in the 'verse, I'd say more than a few fan-fic writers would get all tingly over a Serenifly/Buffy crossover. Is there any River the Vampire Slayer fic?

And, yeah, the sp'dream...no.
if River can be psychic, how much other "magic" is allowed in the Sereniverse ? Why not incorporeal consciousness and all that other baloney

I seem to recall that Joss said, way back when, that River's psychicness was as far as they intended to push into the realm of traditional scifi/fantasy "magic" (to use the word we're using here).
And, yeah, the sp'dream...no.

Hey, don't knock sp'dream till you've tried it!

In blind taste tests, 88% of participants said they would totally buy sp'dream over regular dream...
Is there any River the Vampire Slayer fic?

I doubt it. Hasn't Joss said repeatedly "There will never be a Vampire Slayer made of chocolate" ?
Sp'nightmare, given the body count, Reavers, and scary injuries.

I seem to recall that Joss said, way back when, that River's psychicness was as far as they intended to push into the realm of traditional scifi/fantasy "magic" (to use the word we're using here).

Yep, psychic "and no further" or something similar is what he said in the DVD commentary.
I'm honestly happy for any potential sequel to kick off after Serenity, rather than being a prequel. When rewatching it recently I was just struck by how important the deaths of Book and Wash were in the film, and I'm happy for them to remain dead even though I loved both characters.

I think you only have to look back at Joss' work to see how seriously death is treated. In Buffy and Angel, there were always consequences of death. Buffy herself was the only real exception to this idea, and only because the trauma she suffered in "When She Was Bad" after dying the first time was relatively minor. Her second resurrection obviously had more serious reprecussions not only for Buffy herself, and her friends (particularly Willow) but for the mythology itself.

Even though few of those who died in Buffy stayed dead permenantly, very few ever truly returned from the dead- instead they returned as vampires, ghosts or manifestations of the First. One of the most important lessons we learnt was that death had a price.

And I think that's something that should hold true for the Fireflyverse. Both men died in heroic cirumstances, Book defending Haven from the Alliance and Wash aiding his wife and friends in escaping from the Reavers and Alliance, probably saving all their lives. Of course we will miss the characters, but for Joss to suddenly announce "it was all a dream" or that it wasn't the real Wash or something, would just cheapen the sacrifice that he made in the first place, and completely ruin the integrity of the events in Serenity.

Of course there are a lot of options for the characters returning in any potential sequel- flashback scenes, holorecordings, dreams... and I think that would be appropriate and interesting although I also believe it might not be necessary. If it fits into the story and makes sense then it would be worth doing.

On one hand, I'd like to finally hear exactly what Book's secret was, but on the other, I think it's firmly implied in Serenity that he was an Operative, or one of the few people who would have known what that was, which could mean a high level Alliance officer. Either way, we know that it was probably something he ended up regretting and then turned to religion. It's something I could live with being vague.

With Wash, I think his death creates a lot of "what ifs" rather than any huge secrets in his past. One plotline I would love to see would be Zoe being pregnant with his child, although I have a feeling that had Joss wanted to pursue that he would have made it a revelation at the end of Serenity, but I could be wrong.

But I honestly think that the majority of fans would be quite happy to see how the Serenity crew continue their lives, but I'd also be willing to settle for a sequel set in the Fireflyverse but not necessarily featuring all of (or any!) of the ex-castmembers, if they were comitted to other work. Of course it would be preferable, but the universe Joss has created is so huge that I think it can support other stories and it would be better than nothing.
Spike returned from the dead, after an incredibly heroic, sacrificial death.

Spike's presence on Angel prompted storylines that would not have been possible with any other character. The exchanges between Angel and Spike were classic, they had a history, and brought out aspects of their characters that were deep and fascinating.

Season 5 was my favorite season of Angel, due in large part from the dynamic that Spike brought to the mix. Some characters are created with particular qualities that interact with the other characters in a way that is not really replaceable. These characters have a lot of story "mileage" in them. Oh, they can be killed, but to do it too soon cheats us all out of some amazing experiences.

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