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December 05 2007

(SPOILER) For the discussion of Buffy #9. The last part of Brian K. Vaughan's 'No Future For You" season 8 arc hits the comic book stores today. Pull up a chair and tell us what you thought of this Buffy story.

So as per usual, plot spoilers for this issue will be discussed in detail.

Yippee! Devoured it. Loved it. Brian K. Vaughan, what an arc you wrote.

A few things that come to mind after a first reading:

1. So, Twilight's a being? Cool. Where is he lurking, anyway? What's with his costume? I guess it's now clear that it was *his* feet hovering above Buffy and gang in the first issue, when they were in that castle that was used by the Twilight sacrifices.
2. Twilight's "end of magic" plan links directly to the world of Fray, if I remember correctly. Doubly cool.
3. I love Faith and Giles as a duo. Wonderful. We haven't seen the last of Faith. I'm so relieved. I was getting worried there...
4. Do we know why Buffy and Giles are on the outs? Is it because of the recent discovery by Buffy of Giles's involvement with Faith, or is there something further back that we haven't yet learned? I'll have to reread earlier issues but I didn't pick up on any unpleasantness suggested between Buffy and Giles before. Granted, we haven't yet seen them together in the comics.
5. The cover of the book is beautiful. Any theories as to what it means? Faith being reborn in a trial by fire? Whipping off the dress she was told to wear by Giles (an echo of the dress she was told to wear by the Mayor) and becoming her own person, finally? I'm reaching, I know. But I'm curious.
6. The title of the arc: No Future For You. Does this refer to Twilight's plan as directed towards Buffy? Gigi and Roden? Clearly not Faith. Yay!
7. Giles has Roden's book now. I wonder whether it'll be useful in the coming fight or if the book just plays into Twilight's plans or hands.
8. WHO is the "man on the inside?!" Yikes. May not be a man at all, actually. Who could it be?

I just love this season 8. It's shaping up spectacularly.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2007-12-05 20:57 ]
Simply put, this is my favorite issue thus far. And Giles is a total bad-ass.
I just love this season 8. It's shaping up spectacularly.

I'm enjoying it very much, too. A co-worker and I have made it an instant tradition to go to the local comic store, buy our books, and hunker down in silent, rapt reading while finishing off our plates of food at a nearby Indian restaurant. (The only drawback is the occasional smear of Palak Paneer on Georges's nice artwork.)

Twilight's hideout looks a bit like Devil's Tower in Wyoming, no? But that would conjure up images of Richard Dreyfuss scraping away at his mashed potatoes, and so, can't possibly be correct.
Hah. Richard Dreyfuss and his mashed potatoes. Yeah, it had better not be Devil's Tower.

Great instant tradition, 1starbuckstown. Indian food and Buffy books. How could it get better than that?

A thought: what if Twilight is a former Watcher or some other former fighter against evil who has gone all obsessive-compulsive about getting rid of magic in general? Twilight's face being masked is interesting. It suggests - maybe - that we've seen him before. Maybe. Or maybe we'll be seeing more of him in his non-costume but we won't know it's him.
Twilight is an evil Riley maybe? That would explain the military connections. No, too nice. Adam returning? He was defeated by magic, so a grudge would make sense. Clearly grasping here, probably none of the above. Loved this one. Glad to see Faith and Giles working together. Its a cool team-up. I am hoping that the giant issue #10 is literally that, a focus on Dawn.
I loved this issue.
Wow! That was one very exciting fight, and Faith was doing her best to save Gigi every step of the way (or with every blow, I should say). I'm so glad Giles showed up and came through, and I wept when he & Faith shared their pain of having had to kill, again. I found this to be a very moving arc, and it makes me very happy that Faith is not being left alone at the end of it!

I'm excited to continue with Buffy (and Joss) in issue #10. I am really loving Season 8!
I'm looking forward to seeing this... haven't picked it up yet, since I went to the local comic shop today and was immediately told, "Our shipments didn't make it up from Portland." The last word alone explained everything. There's a 20-mile stretch of I-5 between Seattle and there shut down due to flooding, and the recommended detour route adds 400 miles to the trek. That's not a typo.

I think we can safely file this under "understandable delay". ;)
Casira, I'm right with you. Stupid rain...

My shop said they'd have it tomorrow, but I think the wait may kill me.
Curses! I was out today and forgot to look for it! Aw, well. It probably isn't in yet, I'll most likely pick it up over the weekend when I go down to "the big city"...
Wonderful wonderful wonderful. I love that Faith has a male influence in her life that is her "equal" and not her boss. Thinking back to the Buffy/Giles relationship from season 7, it makes sense that the two have been estranged. I mean, they worked together in Chosen, but before there there was the whole "I don't think I have anything else to learn from you" (paraphrase) exchange, after Giles betrayed Buffy by turning on Spike.

So...I am also thrilled to see what's in that Twilight book, and who would want to put an end to magic. How can that even be done? It's not the practitioners that hold the magic, it is the universe, right?

And, I was shocked and moved by the death of Gigi. I did not see that coming. I am also excited that Giles addressed his past murders! I always felt like that was glossed over.

Great arc!!!!
Best issue yet. It was really really good.

I really liked where Faith ended up, but I'm not sure Giles still isn't manipulating her. And I'm bummed that Gigi's gone. I really liked her sour personality and bringing a spoiled brat down to earth is always fun to see (Cordelia, anyone?).
I guess we known now who the masked-man on the cover of #11 is. I can't *wait* for that one.


So good. Go buy it.
Very cool issue. Great insight on Faith. I can imagine the fight scenes better now, and the Twilight storyline sounds exciting.

Did anyone else get a Sarah Connor Chronicles bag at the comic store? Buffy and Summer in one trip! Nice to see them promoting the show.
Faith and Giles, can anyone else smell a spin-off comic? Maybe I just want it too much...

I'm glad we got a glimpse of the villain, but as they are masked, it does point towards the 'we know who it is' factor, which is mildly upsetting, because I kinda wanted a new and exciting character/villain person...

Is the whole Amy/Warren thing over? I kinda expected it to come up again in this issue, Warren isn't dead (again), and nor is Amy. Maybe it will be a one-off thing just to tie up that story somewhere along the line...

Very excited for next issue, oddly I am most excited about discovering more about the Buffy/Satsu relationship. I enjoyed The Chain so much I seriously can't wait for this coming stand-alone!

Going back to the Faith/Giles relationship, it really feels like something that should be explored, and unless the next arc is about them again (it seems unlikely, I think wikipedia had it listed as 'Untitled Tokyo arc' a few months back) it will either be arranged in stand-alone issues, or another arc further down the line...

The Villain said that Faith and Giles were no longer players, but since they are still fighting evil together, stuff must happen... I want more!

Also, loved the flashback!
Just a thought (or maybe just wishful thinking) but does anyone but me think it possible that the Giles/Faith relationship might be something Joss could play with in the Ripper movie, should all go to plan? It would be a nice way to connect the project to season 8 and the fact that Joss and Eliza are already working together again could make the arrangements fairly simple. Not only that but it might make Fox all the happier to give Ripper the nod if they think it might serve as a little free promotion for Dollhouse.

Wishes and horses and stuff...
First thought: mmmm the paper quality feels a lot better.
Second thought: this was a really good issue.
Oh no, it's Numero Cinco's evil twin!

Er... anyway, I'd like to see more Giles and Faith adventures. They don't even have to include Faith in a ballgown. Although, y'know, if it fits the story... ahem...
Got my copy today! Rain be damned!

Loved it all! Sadish about Gigi, but I like the idea that she's Faith's "final kill". I see it as something (else) that can come back to haunt Faith.

And I likes me a good haunting.

The Buffy/Giles breakup seems fitting, considering how things were left at the end of Season 7. I wonder if they had another fight, or if it's been a slow deterioration of their relationship. Didn't Buffy say she missed Giles in #1?

All in all, a lovely arc. Thanks Brian!
Loved Faith's reaction to Gigi mistaking her accent for a New York one. I gotta admit, I laughed out loud for that (prompting concerned looks from my parents in the room).
I loved this issue, too. It's great to have inside jokes, like the reference to the mayor being a snake.
Didn't Buffy say she missed Giles in #1?

She said she missed her mum (mom...), and she said she missed 'the gang' which could just be because during #1 she didn't know where Willow was. Of course this could be read that she missed the gang because Giles was no longer part of it, and it was no longer the same 'gang'. Who knows...

Also to yellowcrayon, as far as British people mistaking American accents, I had no idea that Faith had a 'Boston' accent as opposed to a New York accent, lol... It is very much a British thing I think... I can do Texan, then there is the rest of America...
Vortigun:
Also to yellowcrayon, as far as British people mistaking American accents, I had no idea that Faith had a 'Boston' accent as opposed to a New York accent, lol... It is very much a British thing I think... I can do Texan, then there is the rest of America...

Heh. I remember a couple of British posters on the newsgroup insisting that they could "usually identify any American accent, while Americans are unable to distinguish Liverpool from South Wales," or words to that effect. Which just proved that they've never actually been to America; particularly this part, where the accent can change with every bend in the road...
Yeah I guess actually going there helps, but a British person who has never been to America really can't (I can't)... it works both ways, which is very strange to think that the Cockney accent can't be recognized as different from a Mancunian, hehe...
Okay, as one of those who's been not totally convinced by the whole Season 8 thing so far, this one finally clicked for me. Brian K. Vaughn really nailed Faith's character and voice.
Even though I wasn't entirely happy with the way Faith seemed to have regressed at the start of the arc, I loved the way she showed how far she had come, in the fight with Buffy in the previous episode, and particularly the insight she showed into her relationship with the Mayor and how she brought that to understanding Gigi. Her wanting to use her own history to help other slayers who might be on the edge also seemed like the right next step for her. You've traveled a long road Faith - good going.

I do like the way the comic book format allows for pursuing individual story-lines of different characters the way this did for Faith, (and I trust we'll see more of that) and in that respect I also love the idea of a Faith/Giles team-up. It had never occurred to me, but once the idea was raised it seems so natural. With his Ripper history, Giles and Faith can relate on a level that Buffy just has no access to. (After all the worst thing Buffy ever did in her darkest phase was a little rough sex with Spike - that and she did the sexy dance with Xander in "When She Was Bad." Woo-hoo). And, yeah it did occur to me too that if "Ripper" the series, the mini-series, the television movie, whatever, does make it to a screen of some sort, there could be a possible tie-in.

Actually, here's a thought. How about a series of stories showing Gile's adventures while he was in England during Season 6 and 7 - the stories that were supposed to be the original BBC "Ripper". It could be billed as Season 6.5. It seems like such an obvious idea that I have trouble believing no one has come up with it, but I don't remember seeing anyone talking about the possibility.
Is Buffy still upset with Giles from when he tried to have Spike killed in 'Lies My Parents Told Me'?

I really need to rewatch Season 7 again methinks.
Great issue, great arc, great season. Gonna miss Gigi, but I think her death is setting up Faith saving another slayer on the edge later in the season. The intro of Twilight and the Fray reference was awesome. A villain that wouldn't have worked in the show, it's great to see them taking advantage of the medium. I had expected more from Buffy, to not just jump to the worst about Faith, but it is completely within character. I had just wished Buffy had grown because the moment when she hands Faith the scythe in the finale spoke volumes to me. I think Buffy does at her heart trust Faith it's just hard for her, especially with Giles being involved. Would have loved to see this as the Faith movie, but who wouldn't.
So this would be episode 3 of the season if it was still on the TV. I can't think of another season that was close to this wow and deep by episode 3. And add another one who would love for the Ripper movie to be connected with this. Giles and Faith, great combo. I mean, we all know Faith always wished Giles was her Watcher. Loved her maturity that she won't be working for any man anymore. For such a strong independant woman she's let men tell her what to do for far too long. Of course when Gwendolyn Post told her what to do it didn't go to well either.
And oh yeah, I knew Faith wasn't gonna bite it. No effin way. Do you think Brian K. Vaughn wanted every Whedon fan to hate him his first tour of duty. No siree. Plus she's Faith, when she didn't die in Graduation Day or Chosen it was clear she wasn't gonna go for a long ass time.
OT I'm curious who everybody heres all time favorite slayer is?
I'm going to have to go with Meleka Fray, though I am quite intrigued by Satsu. And I would be a silly person to not give a shout out to Nikki Woods. Everyone else?
I hate to be cliche, but my favorite Slayer is...Buffy.

Simon...right there with you on the improved paper quality. Shiny. (Er, glossy.)

I loved this issue. It really ties the entire arc together into a cohesive piece of awesome. Gigi's death was a shock. Not that I didn't expect her to bite it, but just the way that it was done. A very emotional and very rewarding read.

I'm really diggin' Twilight. I recently went through a fit of Ultimate Spider-Man mania after having been away from superhero comics for a while, and Twilight reminds me of your usual supervillain.

Also, about more Giles/Faith stories. It's a brilliant pairing (Georges' variant cover finally makes some sense), and didn't Scott Allie say that they were considering maybe doing some miniseries related to S8...?
Awesome issue.

I'm happy to see everyone's onboard with the dynamic duo of Giles and Faith. I was afraid it might not click with some people. I think it could be great.

As for Twilight... I think his design might just be another example of bringing the world into the comic realm, rather than obscuring the identity of a character we already know. It's classic supervillain. But it's also a classic comic book move to have the villain's identity be someone we're not expecting, so it could go either way. ;) I'm still not totally sold on Ethan Rayne being out of the picture for good...
I feel like TLWH was kind of a set up arc, like we've seen in almost every season of Buffy; the first episode of a season tended to be very different from the rest of the season. If NFfY is any indication, this season is headed towards greatness. Or, totally-awesomeness...even bad-ass-liness. It gets exponentially amazing-er!
Favorite Slayer? Faith, of course. And I'm desperately hoping for a return of Dana at some point.
Favorite Slayer? I'm boring. For me it's a tie between Buffy and Faith. Both fascinating and flawed in their different ways. Fray is great, too. God, how to choose? I can't.

Like Haunt, I'd love to see a return of Dana. That'd be fraktastic.

Edited to add: I don't get why Vaughan was so coy and uncertain-seeming in a recent interview posted here about Faith's reappearance in Season 8 post-issue 9. He hemmed and hawed and effectively said that hey, considering that the most surprising people can pop up again and again in the Whedonverse, it's possible Faith might, too. Huh? Was this a misdirect? (He did this interview before issue 9 was released.) 'Cause it doesn't jibe with the ending of Issue #9, at least not imo.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2007-12-07 17:17 ]
I REALLY want Twilight to be someone new.

I loved this issue on the whole, and I like the Faith/Giles pairing. It originally seemed that Buffy was ticked at Giles for simply working with Faith at all, but maybe it was just 'cos Faith had just tried to kill her and not on account of unresolved trust issues from the show. I'd thought they were pretty okay by the end, there.
As far as Giles and Buffy goes, the important point is Giles telling her he doesn't want her to know about what he's doing, and the shocked understanding on Buffy's face as she realizes what that means. Its a nod towards the end of S5, when Giles kills Glory's alter ego because Buffy is morally incapable of doing the deed.
and the shocked understanding on Buffy's face as she realizes what that means.


Jeanty nailed that scene. Some outstanding art work. I was highly impressed.
I loved this one. Can we have Faith and Giles stories forever, please?
When I saw Faith go up against a room full of vamp children a few issues ago, I was like *this* is what I wanna see. A slayer whose job is to tackle all the jobs the other slayers can't handle. THAT's our Faith. The more Faith the better.

Then the plot evolved to Pygmalion meets punk rock. Giles actually playing Watcher to Faith's Slayer. Long time coming. Very nice. I can so easily see Eliza Dushku playing this. My real quandry here which perhaps will never be answered: did Whedon think of putting Faith in a dress before or after he had that fated lunch with Dushku and Dollhouse was born? Cuz the idea of Faith being a double agent? Not too far removed from "Echo" if y'know whut I'm sayin'. Dushku could definitely pull all this off.

And this is my biggest beef with the Buffy comic book. All it does is make me want the tv series to have never been cancelled.

Admittedly, Whedon's got the ability now to tell BtVS in a way that allows for an infinite special effects budget. If he wants a cast of thousands, he just tells the artist. If he wants Willow and Amy to be floating above the moors of Europe for hours? No stunt work. No wire training. No green screen. No problem. Can we get one of the cast to be a hundred times bigger than everybody else? On TV that'd be difficult but in comic books? Whedon probably kept sending early drafts of the art back to the artists with notes saying "Make Dawnie taller!" Chuckling to himself as he went.

And if an actress woulda asked for more money before to come back for a special appearance? Not a problem this time around. Although I wonder if he needed to get permission to use their likenesses? How's that work?

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2007-12-10 02:52 ]

...the important thing is that the story is still being told. Better late than never. Better something than nothing. I am SO not wanting to look this gift horse in the mouth.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2007-12-10 02:54 ]
...dammit.
[ edited by ZachsMind on 2007-12-10 02:54 ]

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2007-12-10 02:54 ]
I thought this was a good ending to an awesome arc. Loved the talking and fighting at the same time, Faith's stellar fighting, and her final flashback. It was nice to see Giles' darker side come out but also see how he's still unsettled by the actions he feels are necessary. Man thinks on his feet. (And finds the page he needs in a new book during a fight suspiciously fast.) His emotions and Faith's came through very clearly in their words and in the art. I am glad they struck off together, although I wish there'd been more said between Buffy and Giles beforehand. I expected that rift, but I didn't really "get" the moments leading up to it here.

I just didn't seem enough that a rift be explained by Buffy's look of shock in the panel where Giles' words register. The shock was well depicted, and then her rejection later on the page, too. But I expected some outrage mixed in there, too. She seemed to reach the shocked and dejected place too fast. I expected her to challenge him more. It felt like his words had more impact than they should have just then, as if some critical part of the exchange leading up to that moment was missing. I mean I get that Giles shutting her out is a really big deal to her. But I wasn't really able to follow it logically and emotionally as I was Faith and Giles' reactions to things.

Interesting that Twilight is a person. He looks kind of hokey, though. Like he should be fighting Batman. But I don't expect his Evil will be anything less for it.
nice comments, sunfire.
Giles using Roden's book against him was a little reminiscent of the way magic worked in Witch when they needed Catherine's spell book to defeat her. Which is interesting given the way the mirror trick from that episode was used in The Long Way Home.

I was a little thrown by the Buffy/Giles interaction too, although it cetainly got the job done in terms of making me really want to find out what's going on with Buffy from her point of view in issue 10. She seems to be living quite a double life, all miss psycho pep squad when she's talking to Willow in front of the girls but much more thoughtful with Xander in the training room. My best guess at the momment is that the switch from outrage to dejection upon Giles telling her he wants her to have no part in what he's doing is not so much that she felt rejected by Giles in favour of Faith but that she'd figured out what Faith was being sent in to do to Gigi. So it's a reminder both of how she and Giles differ in terms of believing potential risks ::cough::Spike::cough:: should be assasinated and of her current position as figurehead to the 500 working Slayers (and the limitations this places on her).
Yeah, hayes62, I did immediately think of the attempt to kill Spike from S7 during that exchange. And Giles' comments about using lethal force screamed BEN BEN BEN. Ghosts all around. And I do agree that Buffy's got layers of stuff going on and seems to be keeping the game face on for the troops again.

6. The title of the arc: No Future For You. Does this refer to Twilight's plan as directed towards Buffy? Gigi and Roden? Clearly not Faith. Yay!

It's a reference to a Sex Pistols song, "God Save the Queen":

God save the queen, she ain't no human being
There is no future in England's dreaming

Don't be told what you want, don't be told what you need
There's no future no future no future for you

I took it to refer to Gigi's plans, fueled by what Roden told her: she saw Buffy as a monarch who deserved to be overthrown. She saw herself as the rightful heir to some glorious future or other, although in the end she had no future herself.
Agree with (most) posters above this was the best issue so far, it really hit home the dialogue, action, surprise combos that makes the Buffyverse so special, and yes Faith really is quite the gal.
YMMV but the La Femme Nikita reference made my day.
I know it is probably fruitless to post here now - I've been so crazed with the Holiday season that I only just got to read issues 8 and 9 together. I avoided these threads - no spoilers for you.

This really worked for me - never was I so excited to turn the page. I, too, would love to see more Faith & Giles Avengery goodness.

If twilight wants to bring the end of magic - what would that mean for the spell that made every potential a slayer? Wouldn't that decimate the slayer army to just Buffy and Faith?
I took that to mean he wants to end it all-- Slayers, demons, witches, warlocks. The entire magical menagerie of the Buffyverse. I think an end to magic would de-Slayerize everyone, including Buffy and Faith. Willow's spell acted on an older spell and changed things, but it's still a kind of magic that originally made Buffy and Faith what they are, too.

This is me speculating though. There's a thread over at whedonesque.org, too, if you want to get the discussion there going again. Looks like it got quiet there about the same time that the thread here did.
Would like to say I want more Buffy/Giles scenes. The tension between them is so lovely. Thanks for keeping the Buffy/Giles conflict from S7, I wasn't satisfied with their "conciliation" in Chosen, I didn't accept that they mended their relationship so easily and quickly. So I'm glad it's not fine and dandy between them yet. :)

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