(SPOILER)
Urru Cover for Angel #5 Posted.
Here's the Franco Urru cover for the fifth issue of IDW's Angel series. Cool as hell...
...and based on an old Justice League cover from the eighties. But who's the guy in the top left?
[ edited by TBalena on 2007-12-24 22:16 ]
hairfins.Pointy | December 25, 01:26 CET
"Puff" (the Unnamed Dragon)
Pointy | December 25, 01:30 CET
Nice to see Lorne back.
CaptainB | December 25, 01:50 CET
TamaraC | December 25, 02:03 CET
Vortigun | December 25, 02:03 CET
Mädchen | December 25, 02:06 CET
I love it, just has Gwen become so enarmored of Illyria she found a hairdresser in Hell to dye her hair blue.
Love that Angel and Spike with Illyria, are shoulder to shoulder in the front of everyone else.
Is that Season 5 Wes?
woman_of_ | December 25, 02:08 CET
Instead I think I'll just chime in on how awesome this cover is and join Vortigun in a cheer for Lorne!
schaef | December 25, 02:09 CET
Everyone else just wants to scowl at us. Even the fish.
Rogue Slayer | December 25, 02:16 CET
kishi | December 25, 02:31 CET
Overall, awesome cover. "After the Fall" has consistently been the best story we've gotten during this "Year of the Buffyverse."
The mystery guy looks like Wesley to me. I honestly hope it isn't Lindsey, because his long(ish) hair is what could define him in this series if he was a player. I fear that if mystery guy isn't Wesley, I won't be able to tell them apart in the comic.
patxshand | December 25, 02:49 CET
I think Wesley is the guy in the suit with (sun?)glasses.
Rogue Slayer | December 25, 02:59 CET
deepgirl187 | December 25, 03:02 CET
Yeah, the suit with the shades is the late Mr. Windham-Pryce. That's his apres-vie look. Who the guy in the back is, I dunno.
Hmm... since "dead" hasn't slowed down Angel, Spike, Fred/Illyria, Gun, or Wesley, could Cordy or Doyle be in the future?
J.
Jay Tea | December 25, 03:05 CET
1) Someone completely new we haven't seen by issue #2
2) Groo
3) Lindsay
4) Doyle
5) David Nabbitt
My reasoning:
* Wesley's the only confirmed deader who's back, and he's back in a very familiar way, a la Holland Manners and Lilah Morgan. He's also an absolute fan favorite, which means he's entitled to be brought back just for the purposes of torturing him and us. This is Joss, right? Hence, less likely for Doyle or Lindsay.
* David Nabbitt was written out because he was a badly conceived deus ex machina. Sorry, but just calling it like I see it here: he had a personality incompatible with his wealth, that seemed to be a caricature of a lot of the audience, myself included. After The Fall, if he's still around, he's just another potential victim. It's certainly possible it could be him, but it doesn't look remotely like him either, other than being white and male.
ETA: And by "deader" I mean someone who died in a manner such as to NOT induce a demon directly assuming residence within the corpse, so all the Vampires and Illyria don't really count as deaders.
[ edited by jclemens on 2007-12-25 00:32 ]
jclemens | December 25, 03:29 CET
Puff the magic dragon and George.
Unknown, VampGunn, Nina the werewolf.
Gwen Raiden, Wesley Windham-Pryce (RIP), Connor, Lorne.
Illyria, Angel, Spike.
Jay Tea | December 25, 03:41 CET
Oh, and bring Cordy back.
Bruce | December 25, 03:51 CET
I love everything about this comic apart from that. I'm finding it too much. Brian, I'm sorry. I want to nurture your kittens because they give me joy. But grrr... arg.
curlymynci | December 25, 03:54 CET
curlymynci | December 25, 03:56 CET
Could it be the Immortal? Now that would be interesting!
I think the guys look pretty good, but none of the girls look like the actresses. Big boobage aside, I think the guy has problems drawing their eyes. They just seem odd to me.
I'm glad they decided to utilize the concept of comic books with George. He never would have passed in the series, yet here he is made out of pure awesomeness. I'm excited to see where all of this is headed!
Valentyn | December 25, 04:40 CET
Canonical | December 25, 04:48 CET
Tibbittz | December 25, 04:52 CET
I don't understand why some think a telepathic fish is crazier than other stuff we got during canonical Angel. We had a green demon with horns who loved Motown, a tennis-playing Devil, a doctor whose hands can operate independantly from his body... What makes the idea of a telepathic fish so much more ludicrous than those? I say just be easy and try to enjoy the comic.
Oh God I hope not. That story--IMO--is very, very done. My biggest problem with the 'verse is the "let's just resurrect them" thing that's been going on. Some people need to stay dead. For me, those people are Jenny, Anya, Tara, Joyce, Cordy, Jonathan, Holtz, and all the other Big Bads of the past. Death won't mean anything if people keep coming back.
patxshand | December 25, 04:52 CET
And I'm happy to see everyone together, especially Gunn. Although I don't care about Gwen.
I like that little frownie face Illyria is making. Kinda Cute.
And I immediately thought the mystery guy was Giles, but after reading the thread now I think I must be wrong.
Looks like Giles to me.
Xane | December 25, 04:58 CET
Giles belongs in the Buffyverse, and since two different publishers hold rights to Angel and Buffy, I don't think that crossover is possible at the moment, as cool as it would be.
Valentyn | December 25, 05:04 CET
The real problem with it being Giles is (1) he's not old and (2) Giles isn't in a Hell dimension.
patxshand | December 25, 05:10 CET
patxshand | December 25, 05:10 CET
With Cordy, I feel there's still plenty left to tell, since, essentially, her character was abandoned in the season three finale. And I don't feel she received enough closure in the season five episode. Yet how can she be brought back without it feeling contrived or shoehorned into a story where her return might not fit?
Then again, I feel like this new comic medium, while wonderful on many levels, allows too much fan service. Bringing back Amy felt like a natural progression, while returning Ethan Rayne only to immediately kill him seemed wasteful. And the whole return of Warren pissed on continuity with the First. My point being, these writers, including Joss, need to tread carefully with returning characters, especially from the dead.
In terms of the future of Angel, I would love to see Groo back, so long as Lynch can mesh him into the plot with an important role. If he returns merely as another face, he's only taking time away from other characters. Which brings me to Lorne, sweet Lorne. How good it is to have you back! I know he's (understandably) darker after Not Fade Away, but I hope he's still his chipper adorable self to some extent. This isn't a demand for Lynch by any means, I'm just speaking my hopeful mind.
One final point I would like to make is a wish for both comics to continue introducing new characters. I know both have, and Beta and GiGi and Kr'ph and the many others are wonderful, keep it up! I'm totally on board with new faces. (And I adore what I've seen of George so far, so I don't think it takes away from the canonacity. Is canonacity a word? Canonness? Oh well)
Anywho, this is my (longwinded) first post, and I would just like to gush about what a wonderful year it has been being a Buffyverse fan.
CowboyCliche | December 25, 05:11 CET
Brian Lynch | December 25, 05:11 CET
CowboyCliche | December 25, 05:16 CET
I'm guessing then...
Hamilton.
Groo. (Where are his trademark eyes? Nah, can't be him...)
Lindsey trying to hide by looking exactly like Wesley did in Season 4 and 5 :]
I'll go with Hamilton. He looks kinda Hamiltony.
----
And yes, it's awesome how friendly Brian is with the fans. Here and especially at the IDW Boards.
patxshand | December 25, 05:17 CET
5X5B | December 25, 05:26 CET
RhaegarTargaryen | December 25, 05:28 CET
embers | December 25, 05:36 CET
5x5B, cool name!
RhaegarTargaryen | December 25, 05:39 CET
Welcome new people!
dreamlogic | December 25, 05:49 CET
angeliclestat | December 25, 05:52 CET
I count 12, presuming they are all 'regulars'
angeliclestat | December 25, 05:54 CET
Hm, Mr. Lynch. Your "on one the of the shows" makes me think of Buffy. But there weren't a lot of significant guys in Buffy that aren't Giles or a cool and funny dude with one eye. Unless Andrew got way older and way more resentful to the point of clenching his teeth – uh, yeah and changed how he looks, that rules out geeky. So, *frown* I REALLY hope that's not supposed to be Riley or I can't believe I'm even saying this – Parker. If I was wistful I'd say Oz but then it would just be painful all around to list the reasons why this can't be. *giggle* You know it could be Ethan way pissed that he was sent to Hell and lost his colorful shirt but again with the painful in a whole other direction. (Same reason why it can't be Doyle - sig. loud shirts people!)
So, I'm stomped. Who have we seen – in one of the shows (Not Firefly –) well, maybe not *tries to find resemblance to Adam Baldwin* not really a bad match, although he really needs to suit up better, even if he was thrown into Hell, he has a well-dressed reputation to keep!
A last "huh" to the fire-eye breathing dragon. And one large whoop for Lorne being all fashionable in red! I love my green guy. Heh, I wonder if he's shacking up with Spike.
[ edited by Mirage on 2007-12-25 02:59 ]
Mirage | December 25, 05:56 CET
Thanks for the welcome, dreamlogic!
Valentyn | December 25, 06:07 CET
Secondly, HOORAY FOR LORNE! Lorne is one of my favourite characters (...though now that I think about it, they are all pretty much my favourite characters. Joss doesn't seem to create characters that I don't like), and I've been wanting to know how he will get reintegrated pretty much since the comics were announced. Him and Wes especially shined through for me in the show's fifth season, and to me both of their exits were equally tragic.
And lastly, the mystery man. Only person I sort of get a likeness of that's strong enough for it to possibly be them is Groo. I'm pretty sure Doyle is a bit slimmer, and he doesn't really resemble Lindsay that much to me. Though I don't really think it's Groo either, since he had those intensely dark blue eyes, and I think that's something that would be noticable.
But observe this, dear readers. He is very clearly looking in a different direction from the rest of our heroes. They all look pretty pissed off at something, or someone, but it looks like he is looking at either Gunn or maybe George, but maybe something else off-panel. Is there any character that bears that resemblance like that, but has some sort of connection to Gunn?
Nolan | December 25, 06:41 CET
And Connor? really? weird. I thought he was a female at first too.
And since when is Nina a real blonde? Illyria is only recognizable by the blue color, even though Gwen has a touch of the blue too. Weird. And I wouldn't have recognized Wesley either.
So to the mystery guy guessing: He looks kind of fierce, doesn't he? But since this is supposed to be the good guys (well, sort of), hmmm. And he's really focused on the fish.
Well, just to throw another name in the mix: How about Graham? Curly hair doesn't fit, but the expression does. I mean, that outfit of Riley's is still fighting, right? could be that he got diverted on a mission.
Harpy | December 25, 06:45 CET
Arsenal | December 25, 07:26 CET
Brian Lynch | December 25, 07:28 CET
But (you knew there'd be a but)... still not loving the art. Composition-wise it's pretty classic comic power stance cover material. Art-wise... meh.
I too like the fish... but I agree that it's becoming jarring the more he appears. True that a floating telepathic fish isn't necessarily any wackier than some of the other demons and such we've seen on the series, but imagine if we were still watching this on television. How crazy would such a creature look if realized via special effects? Sure, effects budgets are greater in comics than on TV... but anything that reminds me I'm NOT still just watching my beloved television series takes me out of the story in much the same way others are jarred out of it by large chesticles. Just sayin'...
A very, very hearty cheer for Lorne. Just so long as there's some serious emotional fallout still pending from his last appearance in NFA.
And my two guesses at the mystery guy would be David Nabbitt (cliche character or not I'd love to see him return) or Groo, since the hair looks kinda-sorta like Angel's. I don't for a second think it looks anything even remotely like Oz, but it would kick all kinds of ass if it were.
Haunt | December 25, 08:14 CET
Willowy | December 25, 08:55 CET
RhaegarTargaryen | December 25, 08:56 CET
I gotta go, that brings down an otherwise great day, happy holidays Whedonesquers! Thanks to everyone who liked it! To those who didn't, ah well, it's sad but maybe next time! But probably not!
Ho ho ho!
Brian Lynch | December 25, 09:04 CET
You weren't wrong. Something bothered me about it. I went back and posed my arms the same way. My boobs came at least a couple of inches short, probably more. I'm a C cup. So Ilyria is now like a DD+ cup? And this is an artistic choice about what?
dreamlogic | December 25, 09:35 CET
Harmalicious | December 25, 10:14 CET
I'm sorry not to see Harmony make an appearance, but I guess she'll never be standing with the good guys. And I am thrilled to see Lorne back.
[ edited by embers on 2007-12-25 16:48 ]
embers | December 25, 11:12 CET
*First post here. Hi
NotRiverTam | December 25, 11:24 CET
Mr. Lynch, on such a festive occasion I hope I didn't add bitters to your sours...or sours to...your... Hell, didn't intend to add anything negative to your eggnog. Have a fine Christmas, Ser.
RhaegarTargaryen | December 25, 12:01 CET
mjwilson | December 25, 12:57 CET
That said, I had absolutely no problem in working out who everyone on the cover was. It's true that the artist doesn't get every likeness exactly right but they are all close enough for me not to have to wonder who anyone is, especially after having read the first two issues. Apart from mystery guy at the back, obviously, although I've narrowed the options down to either Groo or a Wolfram and Hart resurrected Lindsey. His shorter hair style (compared to when Lorne shot him) could be explained by them having him look like an earlier version of himself, same as they have done with Wes.
Like the cover. Love the art generally. Think the story absolutely rocks. Hey, between Joss on Buffy and Brian on Angel you guys have got me reading comics for the first time in pretty much ever, so you must be doing something right.
Kane-X | December 25, 16:00 CET
Pointy | December 25, 16:36 CET
I have no idea who that is at the top left. It could be Lindsey, the hair is a bit like the second season and he had a scowl like that...but Lindsey was blue-eyed and that doesn't resemble him much. Ditto Groo, who had very startling blue eyes (plus, he looked a lot like Angel). It's not Gavin and doesn't look like Lee.
Could be Hamilton, I suppose, although I don't recall him ever having an expression that pronounced. Riley had a scar above and below his right eye and there's not one showing. Doyle's hair was darker and the jawline is too strong for it to be David Nabbit and that doesn't look like Oz to me.
If it was someone on Btvs, I'm at a loss as to who....hmm, it's a mystery.
Guess I'll just hope it's Lindsey.
Happy holidays to everyone and welcome to the newbies!
menomegirl | December 25, 19:02 CET
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(Buffyverse)
CowboyCliche | December 25, 19:15 CET
NotRiverTam | December 25, 20:41 CET
I wonder are all the W+H lawyers killed by the Beast in Habeus Corpses hanging around this Hell?
angeliclestat | December 25, 21:43 CET
The link can be found here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/01/JL1987.jpg
Check out the tagline at the top:
"A return to greatness for the all new Justice League"
I wonder is this the reason the 'homage' was chosen. I think there will be a 'return' to greatness for the group...
The all new Angel Investigations
angeliclestat | December 25, 21:49 CET
Maybe it's Xander's look-a-like, ya know like Buffy in The Chain? Knox and Hamiliton seem plausible too.
Keanoite | December 25, 23:55 CET
Triple hurray for Lorne, and hurray for Spike being back in black!
And come on, Illyria doesn't have big boobs on this picture, I can hardly see any boobs! Even Angel has more, if we judge by the angle of his arms. I'm more concerned with Illyria having a big nose. Which wasn't present on her previous drawings.
As for the mystery guy: Brian Lynch mentioned at some point that Lorne would be hanging out with someone we would never expect. So I think this guy is that unexpected pal of Lorne, as Lorne is also here, and so this guy should have some connection to Lorne. My guess will be either Groo or Lindsey. Groo is also from Pylea, and Lindsey could well be haunting Lorne as part of Lorne's personal hell. And they both can pass as this guy: dark hair, about the right age.
Nata | December 26, 01:13 CET
Runaway_988 | December 26, 01:46 CET
And Runaway_988 - stranger things have happened!
angeliclestat | December 26, 03:10 CET
Haunt | December 26, 03:44 CET
TamaraC | December 26, 04:14 CET
patxshand | December 26, 04:42 CET
NotRiverTam | December 26, 05:06 CET
Keanoite | December 26, 05:40 CET
Haunt | December 26, 06:22 CET
*raises hand*
Well, I really really really don't want Lindsey to stay dead. I never wanted him dead at all.
menomegirl | December 26, 07:53 CET
Caroline | December 26, 08:51 CET
Looks more like Groo than Lindsey or Knox, to me. Bringing Groo back would be closer to the rule of the day, since we've already had Gwen and Nina back (i.e. cool, super-powered characters with woefully short story arcs on TV).
KingofCretins | December 26, 09:09 CET
Groo would be out of place without Cordelia around. But that might be the fun part. There's probably a surprise in store for us!
And I think all the nitpicking (after learning where the phrase comes from, using it feels wrong) is kind of fun. We all obviously enjoy the series a whole lot to be able to discuss it without end :)
Valentyn | December 26, 09:19 CET
Still....a mystery. Yep.
menomegirl | December 26, 09:37 CET
Being critical while admiring and being excited about something is a whole different ball of wax (I wonder where that phrase came from).
TamaraC | December 26, 09:49 CET
Dan Corson | December 26, 10:00 CET
Woot!:D
Anyway I like Urru's covers bar the pimp Spike one ;) No idea who the odd guy out is.. be happy with Groo or Lindsay.
alexa | December 26, 10:26 CET
jclemens | December 26, 11:12 CET
Buffysmglover | December 26, 11:49 CET
This post has turned into quite the popular location!
Thank you everyone for the existence of this awesome site!
Valentyn | December 26, 13:44 CET
J.
Jay Tea | December 26, 18:24 CET
Also, re-the nitpicking… none from what I scanned through was directed at the writing aka Monsieur Lynch it was mostly the artwork with super-feminist characters! ;)
I, myself, do not register anything negative about young fish-napped George. In fact, I'm at the edge of my seat in anticipation of the Souled Blond Vampire, the Red Eyed Singing Green Demon and the Telepathic Flying Fish being in the same room. There might not be canonizations of Asylum/Shadow Puppets resulting however I do expect some inside jokes for those in the loop. *nods firmly* In fact, if I have an atypical bold day, I will demand it.
Mirage | December 26, 19:10 CET
And Brian, I'm with the poster who said nobody's knocking your writing. It's the art most are complaining about.
Willowy | December 26, 19:21 CET
angeliclestat | December 26, 19:36 CET
And to be fair to Mr Urru, most readers of the series aren't complaining about the art, either. In my experience the majority of the people buying this title are loving the artwork.
Not to dismiss the opinions of those that don't like it but I'd hate for Franco to be thinking that "most" people don't like his work. Whedonesque really doesn't want to be given the same reputation for unfairly badmouthing artists as certain comic book forums have gained.
RockManic | December 26, 19:44 CET
Willowy | December 26, 19:52 CET
I mostly saw a large consensus of several posters stating the same opinion in multiple posts.
Just to put the things into perspective.
I love the artist and my enjoyment of the series is due in a huge part to Mr. Urru's work. I feel we are getting a treat here, and I hope the artist remains the same, otherwise I won't be able to enjoy the series properly.
So there: we now have an equally large consensus of several people on this thread NOT wanting to see a different artist. So I guess now the creative team, including Joss, can feel comfortable in using the artist *they* feel is the best suited for the series, without being pressured either way by a fandom majority on Whedonesque. :)
Back to a mystery guy. I agree that too much resurrection is too much and we already have a ghost of Wesley, so having a ghost of Lindsey seems a tad improbable.
I lean towards Groo now. I hate the idea of him being in Hell, him being such a sweet and nice person. But it may give some juicy story too. We now have a dark parody of Angel, as in Gunn. And Groo used to be a shiny white parody of Angel. Might be interesting to see that in play.
Also what about Groo, Connor and Angel having a talk about Cordy? Compare the notes *ahem* share the feelings? Could be some drama between Groo and Connor here. Ok, too much speculation, but it's fun.
Nata | December 26, 20:22 CET
Brian Lynch | December 26, 20:48 CET
Rowan Hawthorn | December 26, 21:09 CET
That has been my experience, as well, Nata.
Willowy, the majority of people I have seen comment on the art overall have been quite positive. Those that aren't entirely happy with Franco's work mostly have specific issues about certain pages or frames that they thought were not as good or as clear as they might have been. Very few people have called for a change in artist, as far as I am aware.
Regarding mystery guy, if it turns out to be Lindsey there is no saying that he has to be a ghost. We saw him shot and fall. Nobody confirmed that he actually died. And even if he did then there is no saying that it was W&H that brought him back or even that he had to be brought back as a spirit.
And, Brian. I very much agree. :)
RockManic | December 26, 21:19 CET
Just for the record, I'd like to state that my critique of the artwork on Angel: After The Fall # 2 was on the content only. I think the artwork is gorgeous and that Mr. Urru is doing a wonderful job.
Back to the mystery guy:
I agree that too much resurrection is too much and we already have a ghost of Wesley, so having a ghost of Lindsey seems a tad improbable.
My fondest wish is that they do resurrect Lindsey but not as a ghost-I'd like him to be alive. And I really hope we won't see what happened with Angel/Lindsey/Lorne swept under a rug or treated like it was nothing because I think that Angel having Lindsey killed after Lindsey helped them defeat the Circle (and Angel having Lorne do it) was a betrayal and nothing less than cold-blooded murder and that it was the worst thing that Angel ever did.
menomegirl | December 26, 21:25 CET
CowboyCliche | December 26, 21:38 CET
TamaraC | December 26, 22:07 CET
Rowan Hawthorn, I agree, and I'm sorry the art doesn't work for you: it is indeed a subjective thing and I think for any artist (well, except Joe Chen, apparently) there will be people who won't like their work. I'm just in the luck that Franco's art is working for me, and don't want to gloat or anything. And as there's seldom a way to please everybody, the main call remains with the creative team, of course.
I don't think Franco's art is perfect either. I wish there was more likeness to Wesley. Nina and Gwen I was "meh" about on the show and so I couldn't muster much emotion over their art either way, as far as they were recognizable within the comics. But I get what people don't like about them and think a lot of it is valid.
But I'm delighted and excited on how Angel is drawn, and that's the main thing for me. And also Spike and Connor. And I thought Illyria #3 cover was beyond gorgeous: that drawing had a feel of an ancient Greek myth illustration, with Illyria resembling a goddess from Olympus. But I wish Illyria's nose on #5 isn't so big and fat... while her pose and expression is great.
But the main thing I love about Franco is that his panels looks like snapshots from a live-action movie rather than cartoon frames, with heroes being an organic part of a background. Those panels are like little pictures where very detail is important. It really gives a feeling of watching a movie.
So yeah, I'd be extremely upset if they get somebody else instead of Franco. But again, I'd just have to suck it up as that decision would be up to the creative team.
Nata | December 26, 22:16 CET
That said, ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL 6 and 7 feature a ton of artwork by all sorts of people, so you can see other people's interpretations of the story if that's your thing. I have seen a bunch of it and it is quite awesome.
Brian Lynch | December 26, 22:30 CET
Of course, and I wouldn't have it any other way. One of my pet peeves in re: fandom is the crowd who immediately starts the "my way or not at all" nonsense. I want to see what the writers and artists bring to the story; just want to make it clear that I was voicing an opinion, not trying to sway anyone's choices - I'm not familiar enough with the current comics landscape to suggest another artist, even if it was my place to do so.
Rowan Hawthorn | December 26, 22:44 CET
These words are interesting to me because I like the panels very much but wouldn't have thought to describe the enjoyment in the way you've done. Thees two draw my attention most "...like snapshots from a live-action movie..." and "...where every detail is important..."
Confession: the only artwork I'd seen of Urru's was the one linked at the top of this page. On your words, Nata, I went in search of some examples, quite interested in what I'd find. What I found was different than what I thought I'd find based on my interpretation of what you wrote.
I'm a huge fan of Frank Frazetta's artwork and not a fan of Boris Vallejo's. I value movement of the art rather than detail. One of these guys' art makes me feel like I'm seeing motion, the other is frozen. One feels fluid, the other posed. Urru captures what I like best: sense of motion...over detail.
Back to the interesting part. We both like Urru's work but we describe it in nearly opposite terms. The devil is in the details (moment to muse on de-tails, tail-less...)...and t'would seem the details of 'details'. Do we both perceive the same artwork and describe it in different terms that, had we a glass of wine and a night to wile away in repose discussing the particulars, we'd find meant the same basic things, thus pointing to the frailty of words and the meaning imbued to them? Or, might we find we actually perceive different pieces of art while looking at the same piece of art?
My personal bet: we have each assigned a different meaning to "detail."
RhaegarTargaryen | December 26, 22:50 CET
Awesome. I hope if there is ever another canonical Angel series, that you will write and Franco will pencil.
Only a select few here are hating on the art. Most of us really enjoy it. It other forums, the amount of people who don't like the art is even less. It seems like the biggest cluster of complainers is here.
patxshand | December 26, 22:54 CET
Jelly | December 26, 23:08 CET
I dislike the art. Doesn't mean I think Urru is a bad person, or that Brian is an idiot for supporting him. It means that I've been reading comics for thirty years and have an entire pantheon of artists whose art I DO like and who I feel would work better on the series.
That's it. Plain and simple. If that makes me a "nitpicker" or in some way invalidates what I feel about the story being told... well, I guess as a sometimes controversial and unpopular member of a very opinionated fan community I've come to accept that as my lot in life.
Haunt | December 26, 23:16 CET
Wow, everyone sure seems to love the art now. Guess I should change my mind. Or just not buy the next comic.
Maybe I imagined the "boobgate" thread...
Willowy | December 26, 23:22 CET
But then something happened. Shadow Puppets came out...and I began to think "wait a minute...maybe this could work."
And then something happened to change my mind even more. Franco's cover for #1 came out - and I was hooked. It was huge, epic and very very cool. Then I saw the 5 page preview and that made me very happy. And 90% of the art work since then has pleased me very much.
I am only new to the comic world - The Curse #1 was my first proper 'adult' comic. So I cannot say which artists I prefer. But I know what I like.
I loved David Messina's work on the original IDW run(who I am glad to see is involved in First Night), and true, I might prefer him in the artists chair, but I am very happy with After the Fall so far...what am I saying? I am *ecstatic* about it so far. So as long as Angel is around...I am there.
angeliclestat | December 26, 23:27 CET
TamaraC | December 26, 23:32 CET
Not speaking for anyone but myself here but the opinions I've voiced on the amount of skin being shown was not me saying I hated the artwork. They are two different subjects, at least as far as I'm concerned.
menomegirl | December 26, 23:45 CET
Caroline | December 27, 00:06 CET
This is the best part of the artwork. I was a bit disappointed with it at first, coming from Buffy Season 8, but a few pages in, I realized how well it worked. It goes well with the maturity of the show. It feels intentional. The art is not always very clear, much like the show was not. There is no true good and evil, but there is everything in between, and in a way, the art made me think of that. So, I support Franco.
And Brian, you're just awesome.
Valentyn | December 27, 00:12 CET
I do think the boobs are over-done and stereotypical, but that doesn't ruin the comic for me. Urru's fight scenes, wide shots, and energy are all wonderful and in keeping with the 'Angel-verse'.
I've been reading comics for most of the last 40-50 years and I have no trouble accepting a wide variety of art work. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing R.Crumb's take on the subject, but Franco Urru and Brian Lynch have done a lot of really exciting storytelling together and I am happy they are staying together!
embers | December 27, 00:20 CET
RhaegarTargaryen, you are right: I feel something close to what you wrote but have expressed it differently. Key words here would be that it feels like a motion picture, like a movie to me. I.e. movement and motion being a key. And by a snapshot I didn't mean it to be "frozen" but just to be literally a snapshot, as opposed to "moving pictures" in the books in "Harry Potter" which are still beyond us muggles. :)
But Franco's panels feel as close to that as it can get, in my opinion. And also they feel organic, heroes and a background being the same slice of life, so to say. Unlike cartoons where we have sharp contours of heroes drawn over static backgrounds. Which is the feel I get from the most comics I've seen (and I've seen very little). And forgot to add: Franco's great with emotions as well, not just movements.
And the #5 cover which you've seen the first here is actually not a good representation of Franco's art, as it is a homage to another comic classic. Here we have heroes drawn sharp over the blank background.
But if you look at #1-#4 you'll see the difference. Those are like slices of life with heroes in them. Arrgh, I hope I explained it better this time. And I'm glad you liked the art. :) From my (again) limited experience with comic art it's an unusual style, something which really makes it more than an illustrated book and really into a middle media between a book and a movie. And that's why I feel we are getting a treat here with "Angel".
I'm happy to know Franco is the part of the team for keeps! But I'm also glad that #6 and #7 will give people who don't like the art now a chance to enjoy the art then. Us Franco fans shouldn't be greedy. :)
Greetings Angelistat! *waving back* I guess you are not only one to be won over by #1 cover! Won me over too in that Franco can do gorgeous Angel.
Nata | December 27, 00:37 CET
Brian and Franco make a great team.
woman_of_ | December 27, 00:52 CET
I have absolutely no problem with anyone not liking his work and I would never suggest any artist is so good that they will suit everyone. What I didn't want to see happen is either Brian or, worse yet, Franco himself read through this thread and be given the impression that the majority of the Whedonesque crowd had a problem with the artwork when that simply isn't the case.
Willowy, I'm sorry that you obviously felt under attack from some of the above comments. I doubt any of us intended that. Regarding what you said about not buying the next issue, that is your choice obviously, but I have accepted many artists that I didn't really rate taking over series featuring characters that I loved. When Dave Ross was put on Avengers West Coast I was very much unhappy with his work but stuck with the series because of a love of the story and the characters featured. Not only was that the right choice regarding the excellent stories that followed, I actually came to love Ross' style a great deal.
If you love Angel and want to enjoy the story then maybe you just have to accept the art for what it is.
RockManic | December 27, 00:54 CET
Agreed! And I loved both of your work on the SPIKE Shadow Puppets story.
Buffysmglover | December 27, 01:29 CET
(would be cool if it was Oz though, figure some fun Oz/Nina faceoff stuff could come from it. hehe)
I'm gonna jumo on the 'I love Urro's art' train too, I think he's doing a wonderful job with the comic. Such a feel, great small details in the landscape and the characters all express great feeling and look alive and in motion. Only small complaint I have is Illyria's facial form. She seems to have been rounded out/puffed up a bit. I'd like her face to be more defined. Like I said, minor quibble.
Also, new here. Great Christmas present. yay me :D *waves to score of fans*
Maharet83 | December 27, 01:37 CET
And no, this scene does not happen in the book. At no point do all these characters huddle up and stare at you. But it IS fitting. You'll see why.
LOL
Buffysmglover | December 27, 01:38 CET
Maharet83-*waves* Very nice first post and welcome!
[ edited by menomegirl on 2007-12-26 23:10 ]
menomegirl | December 27, 01:55 CET
Angel=Green Lantern Guy Gardner.
Spike=Captain Marvel.
Illyria=Dr. Fate.
Wes=The Blue Beetle.
Connor=Batman.
Lorne=The Martian Manhunter.
Nina=Black Canary.
Gunn=Mr. Miracle.
Gwen=the female Dr. Light.
Mystery Guy=Oberon.
Buffyfantic | December 27, 02:16 CET
But, for all my complaints, Urru is actually giving his best shot at drawing and not just tracing or copying screencaps and promo photos. For that I am grateful.
And I never think fan reaction should affect a creative team's decisions, as much as I would love things to be different. They should tell the story they want to tell, the way they want to tell it, regardless of if fans like it or not. But, of course, fans reserve the right to 'nitpick' and share their opinions, good or bad.
Rogue Slayer | December 27, 02:51 CET
RockManic | December 27, 02:55 CET
What is clear is there is intense disagreement about it, and that a number of women and some men, have indicated that we find it objectionable to see women continuously depicted as hypersexualized caricatures. Now, one response to this might be, "Wow, a lot of intelligent, articulate women who are serious, thoughtful fans of Joss Whedon's work, are disturbed by the way women are depicted in this book. Maybe that's a clue that we should think about why this depiction might be viewed as offensive."
Instead of which, we got casual dismissal of our concerns - there aren't any surgeons in hell to do breast reductions. Ha, ha, ha. That'll teach you dumb-ass women to criticize - don't you know that in comic books women are meant to be obscene and not heard?
Well, it is the artist's right to draw characters any way he chooses, and it is the publishing company's right to accept and publish any drawings it wishes. And those of us who find the portrayal of women as comic stereotypes disturbing will decide that either the storyline is good enough to warrant overlooking it, or we will not, and won't continue to buy the product. But I do wonder why it is that a creative team working on a story-line that evolved out of a work particularly recognized and appreciated for it's respectful treatment of female characters, finds it so necessary to denigrate and dismiss women.
[ edited by barboo on 2007-12-27 00:27 ]
barboo | December 27, 03:26 CET
Also, trying a bit harder not to insult the people who are working hard to bring us this comic might be in order, too.
TBalena | December 27, 03:36 CET
No boobs here.
TamaraC | December 27, 03:57 CET
RokkRage | December 26, 23:55 CET
Yes there is a Justice League Europe cover like this as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JLEurope1.jpg
Buffyfantic | December 27, 05:12 CET
No boobs here."
Well, I see the poster rescinding their concern about the boob/arm (curlymynci: "Oh - it's her arm. I claim alcohol blame.") , but it's actually not accurate, Tamara, that there was no boob discussion in this thread; there was this:
and this:
I also don't see that the validity of barboo's concerns, "...that a number of women and some men, have indicated that we find it objectionable to see women continuously depicted as hypersexualized caricatures" rests on whether or not any of these so-called "boob" statements were written in this particular thread - these concerns about women being depicted in this way have occurred on this site throughout the years of Joss' involvement in comics, and as Willowy reminds us:
Of course, she didn't imagine it (http://whedonesque.com/comments/15017) and of course it's not about "boobs" per se. It has been people expressing their concerns that the fairly typical comic-book hypersexualization of female - and to some extent male - characteristics detracts from what we enjoyed about Angel when it was a TV show.
I have always liked what Joss said about the depiction of Buffy in his comics:
TVGuide.com: "Does she get comic-book superheroine breast implants?"
Whedon: "She really doesn't. I've been fortunate that I've never worked with a T&A artist. I'm very specific about that."
I think that there are people who care about such issues, and those that don't - and it's clear that the ones who don't care about such issues think that the rest of us who do are either a little silly, or a pain in the ass.
Oh, well. 'Twas ever thus, really...
QuoterGal | December 27, 05:22 CET
I truly hope that boob comments will come to an end as of now. I mean, everyone who has a problem has voice it... over and over again. Everyone who doesn't has also voiced it. That's it.
patxshand | December 27, 05:30 CET
Willowy | December 27, 05:35 CET
For instance: I was reading through issue 2 last night, and now I get the comment about the ample bosom on some of the ladies. Understand that the scene I was reading took place somewhere wherein that wouldn't be a weird thing, but your messages and quibbles made something that was going to happen a little later happen a little sooner, and, as the book goes on, you'll see a marked difference.
So I think we should give the artist, publisher, and writer a little while to catch up with fan reaction before feeling that our objections are being ignored.
embers | December 27, 05:45 CET
Not exactly, QG. At least not in my particular case. For me this just has nothing to do with the notion of sexism, for the simple reason that what is done to the women is also done to the men. The "hypersexualized caricatures" have been true from day one of superheroes, both male and female. From gods like Thor to aliens like Superman. Enhanced humans like Captain America to just guys in tights like Batman. All of them have bodies that would take the average guy half a day, every day in the gym to match up to. I work out and consider myself to be pretty healthy but I guarantee you that I wouldn't come close to matching Steve Rogers in a Captain America outfit.
Female superheroes are equally enhanced to be the ultimate in physical form for their gender. You certainly could argue that it's mostly guys doing the artwork so it's also mostly guys deciding what is the "ultimate" in female form but then again it's guys drawing the massively muscled male superheroes as well, so does it make sense to have oversized supermen and perfectly ordinary looking superwomen? Is it not more equal that both sexes are drawn in these "hypersexualized caricature" ways.
Ultimately everyone will see this debate from their own point of view but to offer mine, I have never looked to comics to offer me anything at all sexual and the way female superheroes are drawn has never influenced my idea of what the perfect female form happens to be. That, by the way, would be Amy Lee, who really is perfect. When I see the enhanced physical forms of the women in comic books I don't think hypersexual. In fact I don't think anything sexual at all because, well, they are drawings in a comic book and I happen to prefer flesh and blood girls. Call me crazy! ;) What I think is superhero fantasy and that honestly is all.
I hate sexism. I hate the idea of women being treated any differently from men. But I also hate the idea of everything in the world being in danger of things getting too politically correct and everything having to be bland and safe. Let the fantasy art of superhero comics have it's fantasy because if we start limiting superheroes to reality then pretty soon they will all be walking around, not very strong and not being able to do very much "super" at all, because that is reality too.
RockManic | December 27, 06:02 CET
RockManic | December 27, 06:14 CET
Nobody's saying there shouldn't be larger than life bodies on Superheroes in superhero comics. Talk about 'ever shall be' and that's it. I heart X-Men hugely, and wouldn't change a thing (except that they gave Beast a cat-face, not really feeling that). It is what it is.
As I said in the other thread. We've come to expect a more evolved way of telling a story (with pictures!) from Joss and the company he keeps. And that golden quote from QuoterGal above where Joss says he's never worked with a T&A artist, and really doesn't want to, drives home what I mean, even if you ignore it when I say it.
Is it because any Angel title skews more 'male'? Maybe. But there are tons of females that love Whedon work and will see/buy anything with his name attached (points to self), that keeping the integrity of his worlds means... er... the world to. Same with a lot of forward-thinking (like Joss himself) men.
At first I laughed. Like Xander's pillow fight dream, it was fluffy and funny. Then it went on and on, and was beating me over the head with Hindenburgs, and it stopped being funny. As an ample-bosomed woman myself, I was grossed out at the representation and wished very much that I could choose to remove that element so I could've enjoyed Brian's story that much more.
I still would like to see a change. If Mr. Urru is to remain - can he evolve his style? Or is this what we get?
Maybe I could get someone to read the comics to me.
Willowy | December 27, 06:32 CET
And QG, just because I Have a different opinion from you or anyone else doesn't mean I think any less of you (or them), and it certainly doesn't mean I think anyone is a pain in the ass.
(I have entirely different reasons for thinking people are pains in my ass. ;)
Haunt | December 27, 06:52 CET
I don't think QG was meaning you, Haunt. Testy...testy... ;)
Willowy | December 27, 07:05 CET
But with regard to the main topic, it keeps coming back to the same thing for me. You say "a more evolved way of telling a story" as if there is something wrong or backward about comic art and, as my previous comment says, I strongly dispute that. I'm entirely understanding how you are seeing a difference between the X-Men female cast and those in Angel who have real life counterparts but if you truly have no issue with comic art not being true to reality in X-Men then does it really make that much of a difference that Urru isn't being 100% accurate with the Angel men and women?
Bottom line, for me anyway, is that this topic only became an issue to me when I read the opinions here at Whedonesque. The reason being that I really hadn't paid any attention to the fact Nina had bigger boobs in the comic. Because it makes no difference to me. If Urru starts drawing the boobs to the exact measurements of the respective actresses the I won't care about that either. Again, they are just drawings in a comic and I spend very little time looking at comic boobs, as a rule.
What I have a problem with is art of any kind, but especially comic art as that is a particular love of mine, being told to PC up. Not because I want to see big boobs but because I want to see comic art remain comic art. That, for me, means every artist being free to draw in the style he or she chooses, in every sense. If Franco chooses to "downsize" then so be it but only if that is his choice.
Honestly, I just really wish that we could try and remove the "sexist" part of this debate and stick to the "art". If you don't like Franco's work because you don't consider it to be accurate (whether that be boobs or facial details) then fair enough but making this a gender/sexism issue is neither fair not accurate, in my opinion, and suggesting that Franco is damaging the integrity of the Whedonverse is going just a little too far.
RockManic | December 27, 07:06 CET
Of course the girls in issue two are ridiculous looking. I laughed out loud at Spike's harem. They are impossible constructs. That doesn't mean I don't like the art. The art to me is separate from any type of sexual (real or imagined) subtext. I can separate the two. Does that make me more or less evolved? :)
TamaraC | December 27, 07:51 CET
I don't expect 100%. I just don't want it to gross me out and distract me from the story.
"I spend very little time looking at comic boobs, as a rule."
Mmm hmmm.
"What I have a problem with is art of any kind, but especially comic art as that is a particular love of mine, being told to PC up."
Right. I agree here. But PCing isn't what I and others take issue with. See above to clarify please, I'm getting tired...
"...suggesting that Franco is damaging the integrity of the Whedonverse is going just a little too far."
Do not agree. I think you should take issue with it also. If not, that's your prerogative, but I do believe staying true to the Whedon vision has been the goal of all involved with the comics. Dirigibilic breasts are unnecessary, and anathema to the message. As someone else said, the unimaginable power emanating from Illyria, with her boyish figure which had been Fred, was always one of the stronger images and messages in AtS. Point being; in Joss' world, you don't need oversized muscles (or oversized anything else) to be mighty.
Willowy | December 27, 07:58 CET
We heard your concerns about it the first ten, twenty times. They're even being addressed as early as issue 4, I believe.
Bottom line is, I love the book and am so honored to be partners with Franco. To all those that dig our work, thank you up and down. To those that don't, that's a shame, and maybe we'll get you next time?
Sigh.
Moving on, the art for issue 4 is completed and is wonderful. A whole new section of hell is shown, and it's...wow. Plus there's a back and forth between Angel and Wesley that is pretty powerful. A lot of revelations. But the last couple of pages...
...you'll want 5 to come out the next day, methinks.
Brian Lynch | December 27, 08:13 CET
Suzie | December 27, 08:15 CET
At the same time, none of the male characters in Angel so far have been depicted with Kazar-like musculature, not to mention running around in nothing but a loin-cloth, so the argument that male and female characters are being treated exactly the same way is false, as is the argument that ALL comic book art treats women in this fashion. Yes it is a style of comic book art, but it is one of many styles, and it is a choice on the part of the artist to use it. Unless he's simply incapable of drawing women.
I really don't think it's that impossible for men to understand why women would object to being constantly depicted as nothing but an exaggerated (hetero)male fantasy. In fact, I believe that men know exactly what is objectionable about it, because every time they are put into the same position they express exactly what bothers them about being sex objects. Every time the issue of gays in the U.S. military comes up all sorts of men start objecting, saying things like, "You might be in the shower and some man could LOOK at you." In the later seasons of Buffy, when Spike was shown constantly without a shirt, we know that James Marsters didn't like it. He wanted to be treated as a person, not just a body, however beautiful.
If Gunn were being drawn with huge, thick lips and exaggerated whites of his eyes, would that be acceptable, and objections just being PC? If any and all Asian characters were drawn with huge buck teeth, pop bottle glasses and piss-yellow skin, would that be alright? It's a style that has a long comic book history, just go back and look at some of the World War II books. How about depicting all Jews with huge, hook noses? Would those all be acceptable? And if not, if there is something objectionable in depicting others as stereotyped caricatures, why is it wrong to expect women to be treated with the same respect that is expected for men of all races and cultures?
barboo | December 27, 08:19 CET
Willowy | December 27, 08:20 CET
...you'll want 5 to come out the next day, methinks.
Looking forward to seeing it!!
menomegirl | December 27, 08:23 CET
Brian Lynch | December 27, 08:37 CET
Are there malls?
*wink*
Willowy | December 27, 08:43 CET
Um. Buxom ladies are the same as racist caricatures. Check. Big breasts are the same as racist stereotypes. Check and check.
And with that, Franco and I stop working on our Dolly Parton tribute comic, DOLLY:ASYLUM. It's a shame, we had a winner on our hands.
Brian Lynch | December 27, 08:45 CET
patxshand | December 27, 09:00 CET
That said, stopping work on DOLLY:ASYLUM would be wrong. At least we'd know what we were getting, up front.
Ba dum bum.
Willowy | December 27, 09:03 CET
Willowy | December 27, 09:08 CET
Oh, you bet, Brian. I think for all of us here the world of Angel represents something incredibly important. I don't feel silly at all when I say I care more about these characters than some real life people. It is beautiful to see all these strong opinions, whether we agree with them or not. They show how much passion the show and the comic invoke.
Willowy, I couldn't agree with you more :) Brian and his story are very easy to love.
Valentyn | December 27, 09:12 CET
I wasn't gonna hop back in, but Brian, that was unfair,