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December 28 2007

Bring on the Bad Guys. Look who's Number One (and Number Six) in Starpulse's Ten Evilest.

[ edited by Pointy on 2007-12-29 04:25 ]

LILAH: Don't be thinking about me when I'm gone.
WESLEY: I wasn't thinking about you where you were here.
I just want to add my two cents and say that I feel Lilah is THE most underappreciated character (and SR, therefor the most underappreciated actor) in the whole Buffyverse.

Big ups to this list for mentioning both her, and that little fact.

Also, Angelus still scares me. He was pretty damn badass.
Wife and I are currently re (or, more accurately, re-re-re etc.) watching Angel Season 3. Lilah is a spectacular character indeed.

Minor quibble: I don't think it's accurate to describe W&H as "corporate-gone-evil"...more the other way around, but with the evil still prevalent.
Ah, now see, there's a list I can respect and what's more, I agree with the hate/didn't want to see them defeated thing for every character listed.
Lilah! Very cool!

Yep, Angelus scares the shit out of me. I loved it when Angel went into Angelus mode. Perfect story telling right there.
I just want to add my two cents and say that I feel Lilah is THE most underappreciated character (and SR, therefor the most underappreciated actor) in the whole Buffyverse.

As much as I loved Lilah, I've gotta disagree with that one. I feel that Riley Finn was the most underappreciated character in the Buffyverse.
I've been trying to think of anyone better in the Buffy/Angelverse but I can't.... Angelus is definitely the most scary bad guy and I found him more so in S4 Angel than S2 Buffy (probably to do with when I watched them) where he spent most of the time locked up! I'm sure others can put their finger on it better than me but there is just something about seeing a character you love and think you know go completely evil ( know what I mean) and suddenly saying and doing the kind of perverse things that Angelus comes up with. Also, DB was fantastic making that change.

I love Lilah, so good to have a character that is for the most part just straight-out evil. And SR's delivery made the character. "Look, Angel, I know you've been out of the loop for a while, but I'm still evil. I don't do errands. Unless they're evil errands".

OT: Man I forgot how hot number 2 was...

ETA: menomegirl ditto on the Riley Finn love.

[ edited by Leaf on 2007-12-28 16:30 ]

[ edited by Leaf on 2007-12-28 16:30 ]
What, no Gary from Cheers? Pfft.

For me the Biggest Bad of All is Cyvus Vail. He killed my favorite character. Also because he apparently craps really good magic. Scary! But impressive. I hope he's getting his eyeballs poked out in some sort of ... Hell Where They Poke Out Your Eyeballs. Possibly with a better name, though. That's not a very bad hell though is it? If he is there, he should probably be brought back to life and killed again so he can go to a worse hell. Like TJ Maxx. I sense a comic book storyline.

Gary and Cyvus Vail. Maybe there's a reason I don't get asked to do top 10 lists?
Didn't Profit (number 10) have a Whedonverse connection too?
Agrees with all said here, but also: Big ups to the list-maker for including Jim Profit in the number 10 spot. How did we manage to love this guy? Was it just his disturbing past that made it all ok? Or was Adrian Pasdar just that good? For those of you who haven't seen Profit, Netflix it now. The computer graphics are a bit dated, but it's worth it to see Pasdar do his creepy thing. It was this show that made it hard for me to see Pasdar as a good guy on Heroes at first.
Big up's for upping Mr Finn.

Although, for me... Riley never really added anything much to any, how should I say... 'Key' moments? He did a wonderful job in so many things, in so many moments, but these were more intense emotional moments as opposed to, say, shockingly amazing moments. All of his 'I-love-Buffy-but-she-will-never-really-love-me' nuances are out of this world, and deserve far more praise than they got. And also, as he was actively critised for various things, you are right in saying he was underappreciated.

Lilah was more intricately involved in things which stickout for me as epic moments in the history of latter-year-angel. Things which left me sitting in my darkened room for a good ten minutes after the show had ended, kinda numb, thinking about all sorts of amazing things which could wait for me next episode. I cant say that Riley ever did this for me. And, as I have found that Lilah kinda gets forgotten more than most characters, Id have to say for me she is the most underappreciated.

Just my two cents :D.
Profit was executive-produced by David Greenwalt.

And Jim nearly appeared in Angel as a representative of the Senior Partners. :D
Just to add my two cent. See "Profit!" It's brilliant. Thank me later.
I think The Gentlemen were the spookiest big bads. I mean who here hasn't had that nightmare where they are in danger and can't master a breath to scream for help - and when you do, nothing, just air as you watch death silently creep at you... ...

*blink* Just me then? Oh, well.
No, Mirage you are not alone. I think they're ultra spooky too! I've had a similar dream only I was being dragged off and couldn't utter a word or scream. *shudder*

Ok, I'm revealing my ever present bias, but what about Caleb?
Ha, I loved this line: Harry Dean Stanton (best known to the teens as Molly Ringwald's dad in Pretty In Pink)

Those 'teens' are now called 30-somethings. I don't know a single teen(who is a teen now) who has ever seen Pretty in Pink. Unless it was to mock its oldness.
Great list - and nice that Angelus made the top! And yes Lilah does deserve a place on that list.
I think Lilah Morgan was one of the best villians on Angel. I love her threats. "One more excuse from you and I am gonna bury you alive next to my house so I can hear you screaming." That's my Lilah.

Yay for Angelus! He and Caleb tie for best Big Bad on Buffy, but with Angelus there was much more at stake emotionally. With him it was far more personal. That was the story arc that broke my heart and made me fall hopelessly in love with the series, so I give Angelus props for that. I do have to admit though, I also find him a bit irresistable, in a sick, twisted way. I mean, that man could wear leather pants like nobody else.
I can't describe how happy I was when I saw Lilah's name. She is without a doubt my favorite Angel character. Everything about her was great. Stephanie did an amazing job and looked good doing it. The scene between Lilah and Angel in 'Sleep Tight' when they are at the bar is what made Lilah my favorite character. She seemed like the only character that could whip the floor with Angel with words, not violence, she held her own.
I'll give a Caleb bump.
He was high on the creepy scale mainly because I've known scary people like him (sans the obvious murder streak) who were dipped way too long into the baptismal pool and came out with a godlier-than-thou-,-bitch complex. Nathan played Caleb to a perfectly terrifying tee.
Caleb is so dark it amazes me he was ever allowed to go to air!
Ups for UPN! :D
Man, that was a pretty damn good list. Angelus and Lilah are fantastic choices of course, but I'll throw my "big ups" out to the inclusion of Jim Profit. To this day I believe he is one of the Senior Partners at W&H.
I didn't realize how much I loved Lilah until we got Eve. For the entire season five of Angel I would have a do-over in my head of Lilah saying every Eve line. It really improved the show.

The Gentlemen were definitely physically scariest for me, but they lacked that psychological element that Angelus had that took the horror to the next level.

Strangely enough I was really afraid of Spike in his first episode. When he didn't die at the end of School Hard I was really worried. The whole killed two slayers thing made me scared.

Caleb was a caricature to me. I hated him a lot, but he didn't scare me.

[ edited by Xane on 2007-12-28 20:41 ]
What about JR Ewing as played by Larry Hagman (for the teens, he was on 'I Dream of Jeannie' ;-) ? Not so much an anti-hero as just anti heroes, the guy you loved to hate back before hate became cool and everyone started doing it.

List skews pretty recent, though I can't argue with Angelus or Lilah (even if The Mayor sometimes pips Angelus as my favourite Buffy big-bad, depending on the day). Caleb was also a very nasty piece of work.
Angelus! Yes. Such a perfect villian. Pure, yet heartbreaking evil. So much fun to watch, but so painful to imagine what Angel would have to bear as a result.

However, Roman Grant? Really? That character was half the reason I stopped watching Big Love. The whole Mormon mafia thing was so over the top.
Where's Al?

But a big yay to Profit. Glad to see he's not forgotten.
Take the bad guy/girl...heap on the evil...write them well enough so they inflict stomach knotting emotional pain in a character that doesn't deserve it...and you've got the makings for outstanding, chart topping evil. Now, on top of all that, find a way to make the audience wish-like-hell they weren't evil and the beau ideal of evil will have been created for we care for the evil one. And that's something very hard to stomach and painful to watch. Angelus is the quintessence of evil. Nicely done, Joss.

Now, there's a different sort of evil. The innocent evil that is kind of innocent, kinda not, but is... I'm thinking of an episode of X-Files, "Home", that has burned itself into the upper echelons of my temporal cortex for an evil ick factor that hasn't been surpassed. The Big Bads in this episode don't deserve to make this list because they exist only in a single episode. But they sure made an impression, didn't they? The 'Family' takes my number 11 slot.

[ edited by RhaegarTargaryen on 2007-12-28 21:21 ]
Coin.... operated boy. :))
Yay, that's awesome lol.
This week I was re-watching Buffy S2, for probably the 10th time, and was wracking my brain trying to think of a TV character more evil than Angelus, and I just couldn't. His entire existence was centered around causing suffering, chaos, and death. Other villains seemed to have other motivations and interests, he didn't.

"If you go into the woods tonight, you won't believe your eyes. If you go into the woods tonight, you're in for a big surprise."
I miss Lilah. It was hard to appreaciate her at the time (well, kinda; her realtionship with Wesley was one of the best things about season three and four), but when season five rolled around, it really hit. It almost seemed like you couldn't really have Wolfram & Hart without her. Glad she's getting some well-deserved credit. And while we're on the subject, has anyone seen Stephanie Romanov in anything lately? She, much like Alexis, should definitely be on TV.

And really glad they gave Jim Profit some love. I was still little at the time, so my memories aren't the clearest, but do remember the show leaving an impression on me. Was also one of the reasons I started watching Heroes.
Must take a moment to bring up my pet peeve:
He's not called Angelus in season 2 of Buffy. It's Angel! It's just EVIL Angel.

Lilah Morgan is absolutely my favourite villain.
I think what Angelus had over Caleb is that it's so easy to just all-out hate Caleb. He was kind of a black/white character. Women are dirty, blah blah, smite them down, blah blah. Don't get me wrong: he's a great bad guy. He's just kind of... one-dimensional for me.

Angelus, on the other hand, has an advantage due to the backstory with Buffy as Angel. We grew to love him first. And even when he's all-out bad, he's still not painted as such. There are subtle redeemers in the script (i.e. Willow telling Buffy, "You're still the only thing he thinks about" and him being the guiding voice in Buffy's dreams) to keep us from hating him completely.

Though, it could be argued that the characters developed this way because the ultimate goal was to have Angel continue (whereas Caleb did not). Getting the audience to completely hate him might have destroyed this prospect. But even Glory had more of a complex feel to me. There were times I actually felt a little sorry for her. I never felt sorry for Caleb. "Kill, kill!" I say. ;)
deird, he *was* called "Angelus," though just not as much. I remember specifically Jenny saying something like, "If it's true... if it's happened... then Angelus is back." But I think the bottom line is people using the name "Angelus" to distinguish between good Angel and bad Angel. Otherwise, it might get a little confusing.
I just don't like it when people see "Angel" and "Angelus" as two completely separate entities.

The only time I'd really say "Angelus" is in Orpheus, when the two of them are fighting. (Which has to be one of the best battles with an alter ego I've ever seen...)
Ha! The reviewer is an "Angel" fan, it seems.
And boy do I agree about Lilah. She's awesome! Evil, and yet human. And yet still evil and badass.
And let's not forget that in the end, even after her death, she managed to ensnare Angel and the Gang into W&H. She won, and how badass is that! Yes, she might be well called the most successfull Big Bad on "Angel".
Angel and Angelus aren't two completely separate entities, but that's what makes the character(s) so good. Watching David Boreanaz play both roles hurts so good!

I agree that Riley was extremely underappreciated, but he also wasn't as well developed as the other characters. Lilah, on the other hand had extraordinary depth, even for an evil character (which always require more careful work).

It's good to see at least some people making these lists now what's good!
Big Lilah love here too! I loved all the mind games she played with Wesley and Lindsey.

I thought Angelus was scariest in Buffy, when he killed Jenny and left her for Giles to find. In Angel Season 4 Angelus really didn't do much but talk - so he was kinda the all talk no action Angelus ;)
SugarFalls, it's that "betrayal" aspect; Angelus betrayed me, the viewer, Caleb did not. Betrayal of love is one of the most painful emotions we can go through. Betrayal of love and trust is what Angelus excelled at. This amplifies his evilness so much more so than most evil being depicted as greed or blood lust. Causing pain in others for sheer joy, that's evil. One of the deepest pains we can feel: betrayal. That's why Angelus tops this list.
I am teased and disheartened that all entries sans #6 included photos. Perhaps like me they didn't find the referenced image of Lilah-as-Fred. Regardless, Stephanie Romanov was slighted.
I also really love Lilah, but I'm not sure I would have wanted her to take ALL of Eve's role Xane, it would have been really creepy to see Lilah get into bed with Lindsay!

And I also have to shout out some Stewie love, he gets my vote for super villain most likely to gain world domination (all the others in that list are just going after small potatoes).
IMHO (contentiousness to follow), Angelus has it over Caleb because we have the backstory, we know how this has happened. Caleb, at the time, caught some flack from friends of mine for being too obvious. It was all "Joss is an atheist and here is his anti-religion screed". I don't agree - but you do have to go quite a way into the character to discover why this isn't the case. It was hard to find the metaphorical counterpoint that had informed previous bads big and small, not because it didn't exist, but because it struck so close to some brutal realities that the lines were blurred.

Angelus, on the other hand, was so far over the line, and yet had the ability to speak as if he wasn't, that you could feel yourself believing him even as you knew you shouldn't. Caleb was just wrong, you couldn't see him being effective unless you were terribly gullible.

Lilah, on the other, other hand (or perhaps foot), played the middle ground wonderfully. Obviously evil, obviously in need of redemption, and alway tantalisingly out of the grasp of either.
I agree that Lilah was a great character, but I never felt she was that big a threat to Angel and his crew. Angelus almost destroyed the world, and was only stopped by Buffy in one of her most heroic moments ever. What was Lilah's great claim to fame? Did any of here schemes do anything but backfire? She was pretty evil, but not uber-evil.

Maybe I'm missing the point of this list, but I'm going to give a shout out to the Master. Evil and menacing. In seven seasons, Buffy was only killed (other than by herself) three times, and it was the Master who killed her all three. Buffy is the thing that gives monster nightmares and the Master is what gives Buffy nightmares. That's gotta be worth something. Plus he sired Darla, which led to the begatting of Angel, Dru, and Spike.

[ edited by AlanD on 2007-12-29 02:04 ]
Caleb was pretty freakin' scary -- anyone who can gouge out someone's eye goes to a special hell adjacent to the one for child molesters and people who talk at movies. Because eyeballs are squishy.

The Reavers -- if I can pick a group -- are the scariest villains for me. We see so little of them and that increases the fear factor. And anything, or anyone, capable of making Jayne spooked...

[ edited by Chelleatrix on 2007-12-29 08:18 ]
Angelus will always be number one on my top list of evil. And on my list of best-est leather pants wearers, too!
Any old vamp can maim and torture, but Angelus actually got off on playing with people's heads. (Psychologically, not with blood and stuff!)
More delicious was that Buffy actually played a part in creating the evil- and as viewers who would have acted the same in Buffy's situation, then so did we.
Which means that Joss, in an evil turnaround, %&#*ed with US, in a most Angelus-like way. Very clever, Mr Whedon.

Lilah was great in that she wasn't evil BECAUSE she was an innocent, soul having woman- she was evil IN SPITE of it. She could have been the stereotypical evil lawyer bitch, and yet, she was so much more. I really hope she shows up in ATF at some stage.

And yay for including Stewie Griffin! He's mellowed a bit in the last few seasons, but it's nice to see recognition that 'evil' can come from more than just your standard drama shows.
Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "eta-

Jayne: (startled, jumping back out of his chair) Well don't say it!

Zoe: It only works on her, Jayne.

Chelleatrix, scary phrases scare Jayne. And little girls that can kill with their brains. He's not good for deducing ultimate evil :)
I know he was only in one episode but i think Jubal Early was one of the best baddies from any show i've seen.
PS: im new to these forums and this is my first post so hi everyone :D
Any love for Adam out there? I loved that big galoot! His demise in "Primeval" was THE highlight of Season 4. The ritual begins as Buffy causes an electrical explosion, and she rises, her eyes glowing yellow. Adam fires at Buffy, but she blocks the bullets, and turns a rocket into doves. The coolest image of the entire series. And I'd like to have seen Ethan Rayne's playful badassness a few more times.
Whistler, you put it so well about Angelus: His entire existence was centered around causing suffering, chaos, and death.

And the thing about Angel's evil, buried twin (that's how I have to think about him to stomach Angel) is that while he's an equal-opportunity master of mayhem, he loves to target certain people to cause the maximum agony possible. And for an actor who has admitted learning his craft on the job, Boreanaz, most likely under Joss' tutelage, seemed to innately understand this two sides of one coin idea (Sarah was not the only one he had lightning in a bottle with. He also had it with this character), even as early as the brilliant episodes we know as Passion and Becoming, Parts 1 and 2 on Buffy. These are watershed episodes for me, for my admiration of David's work and deepening acting ability, and for Joss orchestrating it all, laying the groundwork for what was to come. So, I support Angelus as #1 bad guy, but we know he's far worse than bad.

Don't get me started on Lilah. So wonderful, so deliciously amoral. I've been watching Angel over and over on TNT in the mornings before work and I never get tired of watching her. One of my favorite episodes is the one where she is tormenting Cordelia with pulsating brain boy. Dear God, you just want to rip her throat out with your teeth to stop Cordy's pain. Hear, hear on Stephanie Romanov getting that recognition.
Welcome, Sussy! (though I'm not fitted to the job of properly saying welcome as I'm not a (long time) regular here). You nailed one of my all time favorite bad guys with Jubal. But I like him too much to hate him...that doesn't mean I find him redeeming. On the other hand, I hated Angelus (in positive story way). But, yeah, I wanted to strangle him with my bare hands.

Adam? I'm neutral on him. Wasn't my cuppa tea.
Angelus the best TV villain? Hell, I'd be willing to call him the best villain of any medium. To put it simply: No villain has ever terrified or disturbed me more than Angelus did. David Boreanaz was amazing.

Also, Lilah is one of the very best characters in the entire Buffyverse. She may have been evil, but I loved her.
Hi -- I'm also new here, and I'd like to give some Big Bad love to the Mayor. He's such an amazing combination of Father Knows Best and evil ambition. Just finished re-watching Season 3, and the scene where he confronts the Scoobies in the library just prior to graduation gives me chills.

"That's one spunky little girl you've raised. I'm gonna eat her."

And you know he means it.
"Big Bad love." Heh.

"In this week's Big Bad Love, Lilah and her three husbands, Angelus, the Mayor, and the Master, in the face of opposition from slayer and law enforcement alike, continue to try to make their polygamous family structure work, with hilarious consequences . . . "
And then Maggie Walsh knocks on the door and wants to play "Frankenstein."
lol SNT.
I like Big Love too.
Angelus is the obvious no1 tv villain of all time. Glad someone else finally noticed it.
AlanD, missyb gives an excellent point. Lilah's humanity is what makes her scary. People find things they can relate to much more disturbing. I believe reality is scarier than monsters. That is why the Master doesn't do it for me. He may be giving Buffy nightmares, because in her world, he actually exists. In ours we know there are no tall vampires with fruit punch mouth walking around, so we have nothing to be scared of.
(and SNT, you make the start of my day funny. Thanks)
After rummaging through what's left of my memory, I've come up with Angelique from Dark Shadows for all-time best evil villainess. And mifeng and I simultaneously came up with Catwoman (Goners telepathy!). I lean towards Julie Newmar's Catwoman, but Eartha Kitt did a great job too.

I agree with Angelus for the men, but miss JR from the list, plus I think Sylar made a great big bad in the first season of Heroes, although they didn't give him enough evil to do this past season.
I really think they should specifically label it as "Top 10 TV Villains From Just The Past Several Years, Sort of, Give or Take As the Mood Struck Us," but other than that it's a good list :)

And: another voice to the chorus of appreciation for Lilah.
I have to agree about Angelus. He really broke your heart the way he went all Evil and Perverse. In fact, I liked him so much I stole his name :-)
I'll agree with Angelus. I think most of his evilness (and scariness) comes from the reactions of those he's hurting rather than what he's actually doing. The best comparison I can think of is the first mention of Reavers on Firefly: we know they're scary without even seeing them or what they've done because Jayne, the big, bad, tough guy, is afraid of them. Similarly, we know Angel's doing horrible, evil things (or rather, the point is driven home) because of Buffy's reactions. Especially in Passion, when Giles calls her. I think that's the best 43 minutes of filmed entertainment that I've ever seen.

Anyway. I'm not sure what my point was, except that I like Angelus. Well, you know. Not like.

[ edited by Jobo on 2007-12-29 09:23 ]
Great list. I always found Angelus more interesting than Angel (no whining, for one thing). Passion always stays in my BtS top 10, which is no easy thing to narrow down. And something I haven't seen mentioned .... on AtS, there were times when Angel himself could be pretty evil. Who doesn't love the locking the W&F lawyers in the wine cellar scene, as well as the subsequent firing of Welsey, Cordelia & Gunn. I think on the whole, DB makes a much better villain than hero. The sheer brutality of his assault on Darla in (Epiphany?) was a real jaw dropper, as well as setting fire to Darla and Dru, all with no "soul losing" needed.

And yay for the Lilah love, definitely my favorite "bad guy" on AtS, and there were some really memorable others.

I also agree about Nathan's flawlessly creepy Caleb. His first appearance, in Dirty Girls (with the potential on the truck) should make him worthy of this list. And extra kudos for the southern accent, from a Canadian.
Passion is also always on my top ten Buffy episodes list as well. David is just wonderful as Angelus. It always amazes me that he did such a great job. His acting really improve after Buffy season 1.

Nathan as Caleb was excellent (southern accent was great) but he really wasn't around that long. Actually I love Lilah and am thrilled to see her in the lsit, but she didn't have much screen time in "Angel".

I wouldn't say it belongs in the top ten TV Bad Guys list but Sarah's performance as The First was excellent too.
Drusilla. No villain's more vulnerable than Drusilla. She has supernaturally strong intuition but no rational perspective whatsoever. Angelus, Darla and Spike know they're evil and enjoy being bad. Dru just wants her vampire family to be together and for all of them to enjoy themselves. She sees no reason to doubt her good intentions. For her, killing people in creative ways is fun and destroying the world is the biggest fun. She's just follows her (hopelessly twisted) feelings. Her evil borders on innocence.

[ edited by Pointy on 2007-12-29 16:13 ]
Thats a darn good list. Angleus and Lilah? Right on. Plus, T-Bag from Prison Break who is just creepily awesome. Although I have grown bored with PB. If you read the T-Bag entry it refers to 'Michael "fish" Scofield" and the big Buffy geek that I am, I thought they were referring to Wentworth Miller's appearance in 'Go Fish'. But then I remembered that they call new prison inmates 'fish'. But I still can't look at Wentworth Miller and not see a giant fish monster.
I love Lilah! But she was the most evil when she dressed up as Fred??? Huh? Don't people on this site do that regularly? ;)
Speaking of Angelus, I'm about to continue my Buffy season 2 re-watching (for the 100-billionth time) and pop in "Innocence". Mmm, leather pants, gimmee. ;)
I don't have any arguments about anyone on the list, although I don't know them all - especially Angelus and Lilah - but I would add that one of the creepiest evil characters on TV to me was 'Jack of All Trades' on Profiler, in spite of, or maybe because of, not actually seeing him for so long. Almost every week he had a new way of torturing (psychologically and/or literally) Sam Waters as she tried to capture him. It's no wonder Ally Walker left the show because she felt it was too dark for her when she had a young child!
I think of all the Buffyverse villians these two deserved it the most. Lilah was just a joy to watch and well Angelus was a stroke of genius. Kudos to DB for pulling it off so well, Joss said that they were worried that Boreanaz might camp up the character but he got it just right. He stole every scene he was in.
I love Lilah, so good to have a character that is for the most part just straight-out evil. And SR's delivery made the character. "Look, Angel, I know you've been out of the loop for a while, but I'm still evil. I don't do errands. Unless they're evil errands".


I love that line; it's probably one of my absolute favorite Lilah lines; Stephanie Romanov's delivery is so perfect--word for word. I love Lilah. And the whole thing w/ Wes when she wins the bet about who would call what they have a "relationship" first, but you can tell it means something to her. There's a little bit of humanity under the evil, but she's so marvelously consistent in keeping it suppressed. She rocks.

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