Patrick on Joss Whedon: Joy, Art and Realism.
Writer Geoff Klock debates a friend's criticism of the ongoing BtVS comic series, revisiting some familiar flashpoints in the show's history (S6-7) while offering his perspective on Whedon's vision for the characters.
"I thought Tara's death was one of the more amazing things about the Buffy run -- it showed a capacity for surprise six seasons in (not an easy thing to do); the emotional shock was real and powerful.... For me this works, this is strong writing."
"Shakespeare's King Lear -- a horrific vision of nihilism -- cannot be dismissed as a soul-killing picture of a bleak, crummy world totally absent of time travel and jet-powered apes. It cannot be dismissed in that way because, for all of its dark subject matter, you have to be happy to have found something that well written. In that way the crummy real world is redeemed -- because you just experienced a work of unbridled GENIUS. The content is not the point, the form, the language, is."
[Bold = my emphasis] This is an interesting angle on how the series writing was handled that I'm not sure I agree with personally. I see content and form/language as equally important, or at least not as necessarily oppositional to one another in achieving a desired artistic result. Valid? No? Discuss.]
February 05 2008
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This is a non-profit, unofficial website, not affiliated with Mutant Enemy, Inc., 20th Century Fox, Warner Brothers or UPN.

So obviously, I disagree with a lot of Geoff Klock's observations, and most all of his friend's conclusions.
But the only statement with which I take serious issue is "Most fans will tell you that the end of season six and arguably all of season 7, are bad." I've spent enough time on enough discussion forums to know that this simply isn't true.
You can definitely say that season 6 is the most polarizing season, and that literally no one was completely happy with season 7. But, "bad"? That is such an absolutist judgment about such a multi-layered topic, it simply isn't worthy of the label "criticism".
As for season 7: considering the degree to which serious fans were invested in every character, every story arc, every aspect of every minute detail of every word of dialog and nuanced glance between characters by the final season, I see no way around the fact that most everyone was unhappy with it, in one way or another.
The interesting part is how varied are the reasons for disliking the final season.
My first viewing of S7 was so seriously skewed by my passion for a certain ship, I knew at the end that I needed to watch the whole thing again, with a serious eye to not letting everything else fall by the wayside. I suspect the same is true for many BtS fanatics, in whichever direction your ship sails ;-)
By the time I'd gone through the entire season three tines (second and third viewings on DVD) I think I had a much more objective view. It was IMO one of the more uneven seasons, but the task the writers had before them was simply Herculean. Bringing this magnificent yarn to a close must have been incredibly daunting.
I think it was, overall, better in conception than in execution. But I also believe that statement is true mainly regarding the Potentials. I totally loved the concept of taking us on the journey from "the one" to "the many". And the irony of Buffy, who for the entire series had been so ambivalent about all the power she possessed (or more to the point, ambivalent about the responsibility that came along with that power) handling the situation so badly.
But the fact that the potentials were so appallingly irritating, made it a tough sell.
There was some very uncharacteristically cluncky handling of certain episodes or parts of episodes. But there were also real gems to be treasured and some eps that stand with the best - (Sleeper, Never Leave Me, Conversations With Dead People - no matter where you stand on the Tara/Casie issue, the ep was about so much more than that - LMPTM, Dirty Girls).
And Beneath You, which was so much more than the "see how well Joss and James Marsters do Shakespearian tragedy" finale (although I can't imagine a better reveal of the major plot point of Buffy learning that Spike has a soul). I thought the entire ep was pure BtS gold. Xander to Anya: "Did you turn this nice lady's ex into a giant worm monster?"
And Selfless, both horrifying and hysterical. The sub-titles in the flashbacks were worth the price of admission.
OK Wiseblood, this is what you get from "Valid? No? Discuss". ;)
[ edited by Shey on 2008-02-05 11:19 ]
Shey | February 05, 05:10 CET
In fact my rationale can be explained by the following
Buffy season 1 as Come On Pilgrim
Buffy season 2 as Surfer Rosa
Buffy season 3 as Doolittle
Buffy season 4 and season 5 as Bossanova
Buffy season 6 and season as Trompe Le Monde
Simon | February 05, 05:42 CET
For me, season 6 was, as a whole, weak. But not in the same way as Angel Season 4. I understand why S6 of Buffy had to be so dark (the pay off for the Buffy resurrection) so I don't mind it and I don't hold it against the writers etc. Unlike Season 4 of Angel which I'm rewatching now...
As for S7 of Buffy, I like it and didn't realise people didn't like it. It's not Season 3 or Season 5 but it's a fitting end to the show, has some great moments and took some risks.
shelled | February 05, 06:58 CET
Completely agree with this. The content of a story can be unrelentingly bleak but if it's beautiful then, with a simple step back, it's uplifting by the very nature of its creation. We did that, y'know ? It's proof that we're capable of creating amazing things and no world where that happens is completely worthless.
That said, i'm as big a fan of escapism as the next person and if i'm happy to view dramas that reflect real-world bleakness, i'm equally happy to watch e.g. 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade' where - literally - the four friends ride off into the sunset or Stargate SG-1 where characters do (occasionally) die but never in absurd, hopeless ways - it's the fictional version of reality, where death has meaning and heroic sacrifices actually matter.
(and the bleak approach usually offers hope of some kind anyway, even if it's just the "small heroics" that come from a character being kind when they didn't need to be - not showing that would be as far from reality as escapist fiction is. Also, in a sense, even the absurdest of deaths can be strangely uplifting if you are, as Terry Pratchett would say, someone who's "looked at life and seen the joke". Just being able to do that is amazing by itself I reckon ;)
Saje | February 05, 07:33 CET
Season 7 had the chance to be the greatest season of them all, but failed. Uneven plotlines, rushy story, forgotten plot-points, characters that fans loved were pushed to the background (Xander, Anya, Giles and Dawn), characters fans couldn't care less for were center of attention (Wood, Andrew, Potentials), poorly written scenes like the last scene in Empty Places, Giles' character, and Angel's arrival in Chosen.
Sosa Lola | February 05, 07:52 CET
PS. This will be a 100+ post thread, I betcha!
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-02-05 13:58 ]
Dana5140 | February 05, 07:55 CET
Cool. I thought I would try something new. The trouble with talking about season 6 and 7 is that you know the arguments off by heart and you know exactly what each faction will say at any given moment.
These days the debates are getting to the stage where we're going through the motions like two middle aged boxers wearily punching each other for the sake of it.
Simon | February 05, 08:07 CET
Season 7 was a good idea badly realized, in my opinion. Flashes of brillance lighting up the gloom- yes, I did love all of Beneath You, for instance. And I loved Season 6 although it was not my favourite.
Lioness | February 05, 08:10 CET
Yep but don't forget Simon, "It ain't over til it's over" ;). Apropos phrase in a thread about season 6 BTW.
"Going through the motions
Walking through the part
Nothing seems to penetrate my heart..."
Saje | February 05, 08:17 CET
zeitgeist | February 05, 08:47 CET
Reading between the lines his criticism seems to be that insufficient time was given to Willow’s redemption story or those of of Anya and Spike, which sounds like a problem with content as much as form. I don’t personally find redemption stories that interesting (seen one seen them all) and much prefer the story I thought we did get. The one about isolation, responsibility and connection; about Buffy learning that other people can not only help her but can be her, can stand in her shoes. I thought that story was written quite brilliantly.
hayes62 | February 05, 10:19 CET
1starbuckstown | February 05, 10:33 CET
Love many of season 7's episodes, but as a whole I think the arc suffered from trying to say so much in so little time. The pace was kind of insane. So when I watch "Showtime" it is awesome, but when I watch it with others in sequence, I get distracted by the way the ubervamps go from superstrong to strong to meh and Buffy's emotional rollercoaster gets difficult to follow. But in single episodes, it is amazing.
Except for the part where they kick Buffy out. Even in the context of the episode, that never quite made sense.
Sunfire | February 05, 10:46 CET
The good critics over at Soulful Spike Society once pointed out that many of the glitches and continuity errors in "The Zeppo" are actually little touches to add to the overall effect of the show not taking itself seriously. I can't claim that this was the case for S6 and S7, but Buffy has a line at some point in S7 about how she didn't even realize it was Christmas. This always sounded to me like the writers screaming, "Oh, s***, we're riding an arc and we don't know how to get off."
Every season has a few problems (except maybe S3). Every season has a few clunkers. Season 6 was, in some ways, the universe of "The Wish" slowly coming to life before our eyes, and the reason "The Wish" is so intense is because we hate to see it happen and yet can't look away. Season 7 had a beautiful beginning and a beautiful end, and while they kind of lost their way in between (why was everyone so focused on Spike?), the season's still worthy of the name Buffy.
I think I could fix a lot of Season 7 just by introducing Caleb earlier instead of the Ubervamp. And as for the Potentials who "we have no reason to care about" -- those Potentials are stand-ins for an entire generation of young women. A generation which can get annoying at times, true... but should be cared about nevertheless. And Buffy getting kicked out was beautiful for both her and for Faith, because both sides had good points and it took both the Slayers in great new directions of self-discovery. (I love S7 Faith a little too much, perhaps...)
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | February 05, 11:24 CET
Really? :) Must... resist...
zeitgeist | February 05, 11:49 CET
Dana5140 | February 05, 12:56 CET
I may be the only one who disagrees with this, but I must say that to me, the content is much more important and holds a much more crucial place in story analysis than form. Content is the ultimate redeemer, the characters themselves create either a dark and bleak or brilliant landscape, and even when a story is dark and crummy, part of the genius behind it is not language or form but about what the content maintains about the story and the world itself. It's content is an inexorable part of the overall story itself and has just as much impact on the genius or greatness of the story because, in the end, we don't read stories for the brilliance of the language, we read them to understand and view the world in a way that only the author can depict.
Seasons 6 and 7 fail on both of those accounts, and that, not the notion that it was badly written, is the single greatest downfall of those seasons. What I find interesting is that while I love season 5, many do not, and I think the reason here sort of illuminates my point. They would claim that season 5 is badly written as well, and to counter, I would claim that the content of Buffy's existential journey is something that overcomes that perceived shortcoming. In that sense, content saves the story, the story of Buffy's journey through darkness and back overcomes what some might perceive as less than brilliant writing, and though I think the writing of season 5 is on par, the form of the narrative along with the brilliant content and characters rise above. In that sense, content and form can and should work together, they must go hand-n-hand, and though neither on it's own can make a story brilliant or genius, one can help to save the other. Thats whats wrong with worlds that are endlessly nihilistic and bleak, the story is not brilliant simply because the form is brilliant, the story must have more than the bleak in order to be something more, it has to maintain a level of content that informs the story enough to allow the form to work. The same could be said about seasons 6 and 7, if the content or the form had risen high enough the story might have been saved, but that was not the case in some eyes, and thus, we get the endless debate. The content and the form go hand in hand, and I think thats important.
[ edited by jerryst3161 on 2008-02-05 20:28 ]
jerryst3161 | February 05, 14:13 CET
And a mere 17 comments before we have a definitive statement about the supposedly objective (lack of) merit of seasons 6 and 7. Cool, I think we're getting better at this arguing stuff ;-).
Saje | February 05, 14:28 CET
;-)
Dana5140 | February 05, 14:35 CET
zeitgeist | February 05, 14:47 CET
(or maybe we should have t-shirts printed to make our positions clear - "I went all the way to the dawn of the post-modern era and all I got was this lousy reader response theory" or "I'm with weak logical positivist>>>>". Course we'd need to upgrade the site to deal with video too but I think in the long run, we may actually save bandwidth ;)
Saje | February 05, 14:47 CET
(or oops, double post ;)
[ edited by Saje on 2008-02-05 20:48 ]
Saje | February 05, 14:48 CET
This is so true. I really wish there was something new to add, but honestly, it has all been said already.
IrrationaliTV | February 05, 15:08 CET
Dana5140 | February 05, 16:03 CET
zeitgeist | February 05, 16:08 CET
(pretty certain no-one's said that before ;-)
Saje | February 05, 16:10 CET
Season seven, while I like it, its in the middle. It just failed to reach its potential. There were too many potentials that got on my nerves *cough*Rona and Chloe*cough*. They tried to do too much and fell short. I do think Xander, Anya and Dawn were put into the background in the final season. If they had 30 episodes instead of 22, I think it could have been epic.
If I ranked my favorite seasons and what I think is the best seasons heres how it would go.
Favorite: 6,3,4,7,2,5,1.
Best: 3,2,4,6,5,7,1.
I think season five suffered the opposite problem as season six. I think the sum of the parts were greater than the whole. There are a lot of good episodes in season five, but it leaves me cold. I can't explain it.
crazygolfa | February 05, 16:29 CET
Dana5140 | February 05, 16:36 CET
I wouldnt change BtS for all the doughnuts in Alaska. (Except maybe some of the potentials I would murder horribly.)
Beren77 | February 05, 16:57 CET
As for me ranking the seasons...
2, 5, 3, 4, 7, 1, 6
UnpluggedCrazy | February 06, 00:02 CET
sungoesdark | February 06, 00:19 CET
k8cre8 | February 06, 01:06 CET
I do agree many shows are made as long as there are just enough viewers, far beyond the merits of the serioes (eg. X-Files). But all in all, the great shows rarely fall to this. Lets see, B5 seasons 4-5 were excellent even with the cancel/no-cancel caused rush/standstill. Angel excelled in last seasons, compared to earlier ones, (I almost stopped watching during seasons 2/3 (can anybody say "karaoke"?)). Veronica Mars, my latest love, continued to shine the season 3, albeit it did show some signs of weakening. Coupling did suffer badly the last season, but that was because Jeff wasn't there, not because of any generic last-season issues.
Now, about this topic. I totally agree with the original article. The season 6 plot was more ambitious (and better(?)) than anything before, and it was executed more coherently. But, the details suffered; character details were dumped, and episodic approach from seasons 1-5 was almost dumped, to be totally discarded the season 7. This in a show about characters, where the plot was there to support the characters, not the other way around.
My first run of Buffy watching ended at season 5, which is where the story would end for me, if it wasn't for the comics. I re-watched the full run last summer, and I actually was so disappointed with 6-7 (although I was kind of prepared) that I had to rewatch seasons 1-5 again and stop there. And the dislike is totally about excecution; I love the season 6 grand plot, and the plot in 7 isn't bad at all, but the lack of finesse in the characters spoils it for me. And the anybody-will-do-anything-to-progress-the-plot approach which made the characters so one-dimensional.
And nothing can ever beat the ending of season 5. I'm such a sucker for happy endings.
Eerikki | February 06, 02:49 CET
jpr | February 06, 03:51 CET
My order: 3,2,5,4,1,7,6
SmileTime | February 06, 04:30 CET
crossoverman | February 06, 06:24 CET
2,3,5,6,7,4,1
It's like picking a favourite child though, they all have greatness within.
Saje | February 06, 06:33 CET
Now, season 7 on the contrary. Albeit it ended in seemingly happy note, there were no success stories. Anya died and nobody noticed, Spike is gone and Buffy is left hanging, Willow is on a rebound which obviously isn't going to last. Where's the love? I did like the changing of destiny. So again, it was not the plot itself but the execution that failed.
About order for the seasons, I really can't do that, besides the last 2 being dead last. All other seasons had many different things going for them. Season 1 just for the start, and some damn good episodes. Seasn 2 had Angelus and the second best season ending. Season 3 had Faith. Four had the best individual episodes, even if the sum of them didn't add up due the lacky grand plot. And finally season 5 was built like the season ending. All good.
Eerikki | February 06, 07:08 CET
Dana5140 | February 06, 07:09 CET
Imo, the best years are in this order: 5, 3, 2 and 6 are tied, 4 and 7 are tied and 1 comes in last.
Reddygirl | February 06, 07:09 CET
Simon | February 06, 07:13 CET
I like the number itself though, it reminds me of a snowman I had as a boy.
Saje | February 06, 07:19 CET
Yet, I am kinda of the opinion that art or literature(especially escapist fiction like Buffy) is under NO obligation to reflect "real life" to that soul-killing extreme. If anything I believe one of the key purposes of art is illuminate and even REDEEM our bleak, crummy world totally absent of time travel and jet-powered apes.
This point I agree with 110%. I've long said I like fantasy in my fantasy fiction. There's a reason why I don't get interested in realistic dramas or reality tv. I have my own reality and drama to deal with. I've dealt with loved one's dying. I don't need a lesson in it.
Essentially I found Season 7 to be unsatisfying...indeed realistically unsatisfying. Because, after the pain of Season 6, what I need is joy and hope that is equal to or greater than the pain. And I'm still waiting for that in Season 8. While I'm not at the point of giving up hope, it's possible that if I don't get it, I will be for no other reason than I'm not a masochist.
Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles...and all the other characters suffer unrealistic heights of pain. No one has ever suffered the pain of being in heaven and being brought back. Relatively few people have seen their lovers accidentally, and surprisingly shot through the heart in front of us. It's as though, in Season 6, pain became the fantasy. And that's just warped, and not in a good way.
That being said, if I'm to experience unrealistic pain with these characters, I damn well better get some unrealistic joy along with it.
GrrrlRomeo | February 06, 08:30 CET
and most of the episodes I watch again and again are in seasons 4 and 6.
moley75 | February 06, 08:39 CET
I have real trouble ranking the seasons, too. I usually say that S1 and S7 are the worst of the lot, with the pairings of 2/3 and 5/6 really carrying the banner and S4 as a slight down-dip in the middle... but hey, even S1 has some really great stuff in it (I've got a newfound appreciation of "The Pack" these days) and so do all the rest. It's like saying, "This the worst Leonardo da Vinci painting ever."
Yes, good characters were pushed aside, and they did indeed try for too much. But Amanda's awesome, and I think Kennedy would have grown on people if she had more time. And not in a fungus-like way. Remember everyone hating Oz and Tara at first? But then, I care about Cassie when all we ever saw of her was a one-shot, and so my caring level is either high or weird, take your pick.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | February 06, 10:44 CET
My problem is that S7 failed utterly to capitalize on any of them.
I won't go into an S7 rant, save to say "DO NOT WANT". I'm convinced that S7 should have been the pay-off for S6 -- and, I think, would've been if SMG hadn't pulled out, which I firmly believe, despite whatever else is said, took everyone by surprise and caused a dramatic shift in the resulting episodes.
Er, anyway. Yes, I think S6 would've been received much better as a whole, had S7 been able to carry the ball it was handed. It didn't, and both seasons suffered as a result.
Pity.
[ edited by Jet Wolf on 2008-02-06 19:21 ]
Jet Wolf | February 06, 11:55 CET
Good point. I wonder if we'll ever shift to thinking of 1-9 continuously and all together instead of tv over here and comics over there. Maybe when the comics are over?
Sunfire | February 06, 12:59 CET
Anyhoo...I find that the different seasons speak to me at different times. I've always liked that thing that that Joss says about giving people stories that they need instead of what they want. I don't know that S6 made happy but it did give me what I needed.
I think we tell ourselves who we are through the stories and characters we are drawn to...they are our mirror.
S7 had beautiful moments but squandered our emotional attachment with too many place holding, cardboard characters. We never got to know those potentials and why would we want to? We were already invested in what--7 people? Don't get me wrong, I loved the whole woman power thang and my throat closes up every time I hear "...Are you ready to be strong?" Maybe if we had had more time with them but I doubt it because they were never made "family" in the words of Kaylee. We didn't care about them because Buffy never cared about them as individuals. They were only there to be talked about or to be difficult. With the exception of Kennedy they were interchangeable and as characters had no impact on the scoobies and their arcs.
I'm in a wait and see mode with S8 as it has started off with the same problem of squandering of emotional intensity. Still not real excited. The Faith arc has been better because it was more intimate. Personal. I think comics are an inherently intimate medium. I'm glad there are legions of slayers now but I just don't really want to know about them. I'm sure Joss is quite capable of changing my mind though, and I am looking forward to eating my words. With chocolate sauce I think.
BreathesStory | February 06, 15:38 CET
[ edited by ManEnoughToAdmitIt on 2008-02-06 21:49 ]
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | February 06, 15:49 CET
jclemens | February 06, 15:53 CET
hayes62 | February 06, 16:16 CET
If any of the scoobies had invested time and emotion in them--say Willow in a mothering sort of way to over compensation for you know, the evil. Or we could have seen Xander involved in the running of all the scheduling (highjinks ensue)... or something less lame than that. Just something.
BreathesStory | February 06, 16:22 CET
hayes62 | February 06, 17:09 CET
I'm inclined to agree with this, and I'm about to the point of setting aside time to actually go through every episode and total up each character's screen time to see if I can prove it. (My impression is that most of the characters actually get less time than some individuals in the senior class got, even though the season centers around them more.)
Rowan Hawthorn | February 06, 19:35 CET
Dana5140 | February 06, 19:44 CET
Yeah, well, that same point could be applied to any other character appearing on the show who isn't one of the main cast. Which, in my book, seriously limits the available stories you can tell and results in even crappier writing. Of course, if one only cares about one story, then I guess it doesn't matter.
Dana5140:
I don't, and I never said it was. But I also disagree with a lot of the complaints leveled against it, and comments like this just reinforce my opinion that the problem doesn't necessarily lie in writer arrogance.
[ edited by Rowan Hawthorn on 2008-02-07 03:42 ]
Rowan Hawthorn | February 06, 21:41 CET
As for my favorites... A couple of explanatory notes: I find that I just don't enjoy the characters as much in high school. Still good stuff, still a wonderful show; but, I prefer them as adults. Seasons 1 and 4 have both risen in my estimation the more that I've re-watched them; but, it's still clear that things were still being developed (and that the budget was restricted) in 1. Oh, and while I've really liked Season 8 - really liked much of it - I don't think that I can rank it only five or six "eps" in. (I get that the four issues = one episode idea has gotten very popular, but it feels more like two to one to me.)
While all seasons have great, great eps, based on my personal fondness, and frequency of inclination to re-watch, my ranking:
5, 6, 7 just over 4 just over 3, 2, 1. (All of them over more than 99% of anything else I've ever seen, though.)
LKW | February 06, 22:07 CET
In reference to your comment about time on other characters, let's be real. Any other character in the show would have been serving the purpose of simple plot advancement; they were not going to introduce even more new characters (save, obviously, for Caleb and the Guardian; the latter was a very, very bad add, in my estimation). These are not characters we care about. The ones we do are the main leads, and these were the folk pushed to the side to make room for a bunch of interchangeable redshirts. Some of us might like some of them, but no way do any us care about them more than we do Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles and Dawn.
Dana5140 | February 06, 22:52 CET
And yet, that's the first response any time someone attempts to challenge a negative point. Gotta say, it wears every bit as thin as the "Just didn't get it" argument does to you. Look, any of us can present our opinions as ironclad fact all we want, but the guy next to us who also holds his opinions as ironclad fact knows we're wrong.
All right, and the point there is? Without someone serving that purpose, there wouldn't be any plot advancement. I love the characters, can't think of any actors I'd rather see play them, and they're what got me interested in the show to begin with, but "I'd be happy to watch ------ sit and read the phone book for an hour" is, for me, pure hyperbole. There needs to be something going on, so you either bring in secondary characters for the primaries to play against, or you have a closed-universe story where six people speak and interact only with each other. I'll take the one we got for seven seasons, flaws and all.
Rowan Hawthorn | February 06, 23:30 CET
I believe that show is called Friends.
crazygolfa | February 06, 23:34 CET
ETA: And if that's the kind of show people like, more power to'em. But it's not my cup of poison.
[ edited by Rowan Hawthorn on 2008-02-07 05:40 ]
Rowan Hawthorn | February 06, 23:38 CET
My tuppence: the characters I care about are the ones the show makes me care about. I cared about the Potentials in S7. Yes, they were annoying and whiny sometimes, just as Buffy herself was when she was first introduced to Slaying; except that she had power, and the Ps didn't. (The only thing that really got my goat about the Potentials was that one bloody awful British accent . . . oh, and the Buffy house-eviction, but they were only partly responsible for that. And the only part of the season that I truly continue to dislike is the interminable Spike-trigger/Ubervamp threat sequence in the middle, which for me just went on and on and on - even on DVD.) Season 6, on the other hand, was just brilliant.
SoddingNancyTribe | February 06, 23:57 CET
Rowan Hawthorn | February 07, 00:16 CET
Sunfire | February 07, 00:58 CET
Dana5140 | February 07, 08:07 CET
Mine are: 6,4,5,2,7,3,1.
One is last only because it was a work in progress. I actually think 3 is the weakest season, overall. Faith being introduced and her storyline initiated was necessary, The Mayor is a great character (but not nearly as scary a Big Bad as Glory, or as funny). Lovers Walk and The Wish are IMO the only truly great eps of the season.
Throw cyber-things at me as you will, I think s3 was full of over-rated eps. Dopplegangland (if only the ep itself was as brilliant as the title), Band Candy, (the most unfunny of all "funny" eps). The worst two opening eps of the entire series (Anne and Dead Man's Party), the absolute worst season finale (forget the gorgeous shot of Buffy watching Angel walk away through the artsy smoke, the rest of the ep was a snoozer), and a number of eps I'd rate as close to "just plain awful" as Bts ever got (the afore mentioned first two eps of the season, The Zeppo - and I love Xander, just not this heavy handed ep - Homecomimng).
I've gotten over defending my season 6 love, suffice to say epic tragedy, beautifully realized. And perfect continuity of character development. Every single main character, by the end of sesason 5, was heading for a fall (well, except Buffy, who was busy being dead). But who was in total crash and burn mode, before the dying.
And season 6 gave us the pay-off of that setup, in spades, where a less courageous team of writers would have backed off and toned it down. As well as three of the most brilliant eps of the entire series if not in the history of network TV: OMWF, Tabula Rasa and Dead Things.
Go ahead, ask me why I rate season 4 as my #2 favorite. I'm a late comer to this fandom, I'm nowhere near sick of discussing it ;-)
Shey | February 07, 09:12 CET
(it's one of my favourites - when the parents fall apart and run and the kids stand up and throw their robes open ready to fight I usually get a wee lump in the auld throat. It's as nice a depiction of the baton passing on as you could hope for IMO, a real graduation)
SNT- The show cannot MAKE you like anyone; that's a decision you make on your own.
Sure it can Dana5140. Give a character a lot of funny lines, repeatedly show them being nice to characters we already like, show them being heroic, have them be self-deprecating instead of arrogant etc. etc. Who likes Xander or even Willow in "Dead Man's Party" (since it was mentioned) ? Most people dislike Buffy during parts of season 7 because she's shown to be autocratic and pompous. Even when Spike was bad he was liked because he was funny and sort of cool with it. Is there much doubt that at least part of the Kennedy dislike stems from her bratty attitude and aggression in pursuing Willow ?
Like or dislike is just another emotion and manipulating emotions (in the best possible way) is what Joss and the other ME scribes were/are absolute past masters at.
Saje | February 07, 09:32 CET
Me too and me neither. OK, why?
Season 4 has great episodes and introduced my favourite character but, for me, as a overall season it suffers from the offing of Professor Walsh.
I agree with your assessment of "The Zeppo" but definitely can't about "Dopplegangland" which is my favourite Willow centric episode.
moley75 | February 07, 11:49 CET
Season 4 has great episodes
Do you need more reasons to like season 4? Discarding the beer bad it has the greatest single episodes in the series, second only to the musical. Oz/Willow plot, Pangs, Hush, Tara episodes, Who Are You?, Superstar, New Moon Rising, Restless. Hardly any other season has so many episodes that good.
Because the individually great episodes were less tied to general plot, the whole season didn't build up to greater than the parts.
The weak general plot and the lack of coherence, and the weak plot completion (the Adam ending) didn't really build up, and the (excellent) Restless didn't really save the season plot, it only acted as a great ending / foreshadowing.
Eerikki | February 07, 18:09 CET
“Hush”, “Who Are You?”, “Something Blue”, “Restless”, “The Yoko Factor”, “Pangs”, “Wild At Heart”, “Fear Itself”, and “A New Man” are all great (and in the case of the first two, brilliant) episodes but as a complete season I don’t rate it as highly as 3 and 2.
moley75 | February 07, 18:32 CET
Dana5140 | February 07, 19:19 CET
However, as the episodes were that good, I can't really place it below 2/3/5. Or above. It's really hard to compare, each season have different things going for them. And, as my view has changed between viewings of them, it's no wonder there are differences of opinions between different people. I kind of remember from my first viewing of season 4 the "Adam, not so good -> season, not so good". The later viewings have made the season 4 better and better.
One thing that hasn't really lessened is the general disappointment with seasons 6/7. Which is kind of sad. I should love season 6, Nerds were great, Dark Willow was awesome, I like Spike&Buffy, the gloomyness was great. But, something was lacking, namely the side characters. Maybe I would like season 6 more if the wrap up in season 7 was better. However in season 7, the first time around I thought I just disliked the potentials, but by second viewing I actually ended up liking them (mostly). So, repeating myself, liked the plot, hated the handling of the 'supporting' scoobies of each episode. And the ending episode, just eww. The last minute or so was legen - wait for it - dary (minus Anya), but the getting there was just ridiculous.
Eerikki | February 07, 19:25 CET
Well, I know that's true for you Dana5140, ya crazy Taraphile ;) I was more meaning the people that liked Tara well enough but weren't destroyed by her death, don't consider her irreplaceable. It's like Riley succeeding Angel - if you're not a shipper, you don't have a particular axe to grind with either one so if you dislike either one it's likely to be for other reasons.
But to make my point, Xander has never meant much to me. He sure does to others. I guess I was not manipulated enough. :-)
Well, i'm not saying every single one of us marches in lock-step and likes or dislikes whoever had the funniest previous line (threads like this are pretty good evidence against that). On average though, we like/dislike the characters the writers want us to like/dislike when they want us to like/dislike them.
In the strictest sense of course, they can't make us do anything (in your case for instance, Kennedy could've been perfect in every way, she still wouldn't be Tara) since, if you're aware that you're being manipulated (and we all are, even subconsciously), then you can just choose to be contrary but you seemed to be claiming that the writers have no influence over how we feel about a character, which is (no offence ;) patently absurd IMO.
Saje | February 08, 05:41 CET
Dana5140 | February 08, 08:12 CET
Saje | February 08, 08:27 CET
But (again in the uber-brilliant Restless) I also believe that Riley's part in Willow's "Death Of A Salesman" dream sequence made it clear that he was merely a pawn, not a bad guy himself (in case anyone had missed that point).
I've never understood the Riley hatred/dislike, or the perception that the "Initiative" story arc was a weak one. Riley's character is one of the things I loved most about season 4, for a number of reasons. Whatever your ship, I think it was always clear that Riley was never meant to be the "permanent guy" in Buffy's life.
What he did was illustrate a crucial point in Buffy's character development, the fact that no matter how much she wished it to be true, she simply wasn't cut out for a relationship with a normal "Joe guy".
Riley was a beautifully realized "foil for the main characters and the story arc" character, and Marc Blucas played the role to perfection. His conversations in various episodes with Willow, Spike and Xander, moved the storyline along in masterful ways, as well as illustrating key points in the development of these key characters.
My love of season6 is visceral and has a lot to do with the gutsy artistic courage on the part of the writers (and I will never believe that Joss was too far away from the helm, "credits" aside).
But my love of season 4 is based more on the perfect continuity of the story arc and character development throughout the entire season. How Buffy and the scoobies handled noving past the high school phase of their lifes (and in Gile's case, the "high school librarian" phase), the defining moment in the beginning of Spike's long journey from total vilian to hero, Willow's discovery of her true sexual identity as well as her coming into her Wiccan powers in a way that would define her character for the rest of the series, bringing Faith back in two knock-out eps (This Years Girl and Who Are You?) which also brought back into focus the fact that Buffy had been willing to do something so morally anbigious that we weren't going to be allowed to just forget it.
Plus two of the most stunning eps of the entire series, Hush and Restless, as well as IMO the hands-down funniest, most witty ep of the entire seven year run, Pangs.
Um, someone did ask, somewhere up the thread. ;-)
Shey | February 09, 07:12 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | February 09, 19:51 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | February 10, 01:51 CET
Thank you, thank you! I've often been complimented on my innovative usage of "and" & "the" ;-)
[ edited by Shey on 2008-02-10 06:28 ]
Shey | February 10, 00:27 CET
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