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February 05 2008

Firefly overrated? That's what io9 is asking in a current poll of the most overrated (sci fi I assume) recent tv shows. Good news though: the results so far are positive.



[ edited by Bruce on 2009-05-14 19:45 ]
Oh, thank the gods, I was afraid we might go a day without a divisive poll.
Lost got my vote. I can't stand all the pointless flashbacks in the previous seasons.
"Firefly" is indeed great. It even had some perfect moments. But the minute people started saying it was Joss's best work was the minute it became overrated. It's still in my Top Ten of all time, but no way it's better than "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" or "Angel." As far as non-Joss shows, "Veronica Mars," "Six Feet Under," and "Wonderfalls" are better. THEN comes "Firefly." But that's still Pretty Damn Good.
zeitgeist, you said it. I am shocked to see another poll on the Internet where people can argue about whether Firefly sucked or not. Shocked!
Seems like every day io9 has a mention of Firefly. And I believe that as a member of the Gawker media family the writer of the topics get page view-related bonuses. Coincidence? Not that I'm complaining. I must check later if the Firefly/Serenity topics have higher page views...
I'm a Firefly>Angel>Buffy girl myself.

I think one of my positives about Firefly that rarely happens (and is why I rate it the way I do) is the fact that every character introduced (not just the main characters) is played by an amazing actor/actress. I cannot say that about many sci-fi series, including Angel and Buffy, including Star Trek.
Yeah, io9 has gotten six links here this year.
One would think that SG1 would be on the list. I'll admit, I've never watched a complete episode, but I honestly don't think it needed ten seasons. Though I will give them credit for giving Ben Browder and Claudia Black jobs after Farscape went off.

As for my vote, Lost. I truly loved that show at first,but after season two, I couldn't stomach it anymore. I like mysteries as much as the next person, but you have to reveal something in order for things to stay interesting.
There's no doubt that Firefly is Joss's best work. Veronica Mars was unwatchable.

Ha, this is a funny thread.
It's a bit strange SG-1 isn't included indeed. Maybe they thought SG-1 wasn't rated high enough to be overrated? Anyway, I still would have voted Lost.
Firefly is definitely Joss's masterpiece, the Buffyverse seems superior only because of how well-explored the universe was and how much attention each character received while giving them all a chance to develop. Firefly never got that, and even then, from what I have seen, Firefly is superior.

Oh, and yes, Veronica Mars is unwatchable. I'll save that rant for another day. Of those listed, I'd say Lost is definitely the most overrated.
I really enjoyed V.Mars, though it wasn't by any means perfect - next! ;) (meaning someone needs to disagree with someone else upthread and then we all drink!)

ETA - Heroes is the most over-rated, IMO. I think Lost recovered a bit in S3, though the middle of S2 was unbelievably interminable.
*takes a drink
We should probably argue about the most over-rated drink to use for the Divisive Thread Drinking Game (tm).
I voted for Heroes on the poll since I haven't actually seen much of Lost to fairly vote for it.

deepgirl: Your thoughts about Lost are ironically precisely how I felt about BSG after its third season, with all the crazy unexplained religious stuff flying around everyone. I'm really getting sick of it. :)

Am I the only one who feels that comparing Firefly to Buffy and Angel is kind of silly? Firefly was pretty awesome for its 14 episodes, but that's all it has: 14 episodes and a movie. Even if you like it a lot more, it's hard to put it up against shows that ran 5-7 seasons.

Imo, Buffy and Angel are way better than Firefly, but only because there was so much more greatness than Firefly was allowed to try to have. If it had gone on longer, my opinion might very well be different.

With that said, I still think Firefly is a bit overrated. I say that because of what I just explained above. It seems, to me at least, that people are getting a bit overly excited about only 14 episodes. They're great, yes, and it's a crying shame there wasn't more, but there isn't. We have to judge the show on what was produced, and not what could have been. There's no guarantee Firefly would have continued to keep the level of quality acheieved in S1 for its entire duration. Even the best shows have their lull moments.

As for the Buffy vs. Angel comparison, I also feel it's kinda of pointless. They're both great shows, probably of close to equal quality. I think it comes down to personal preference here. I strongly prefer Buffy to Angel because it's much more character focused (not to to say the latter isn't, but not nearly to the consistent extent Buffy is).

In reality, I love ALL of these shows quite a lot. They represent some of my favorite shows (in Buffy's case: THE best for the type of things I look for in TV). While I feel Firefly is just a little overrated, it's certainly the least overrated on the list in this poll imo.
I would guess that SG1 gets better ratings than Doctor Who, so it's absence is probably due to a lower pizazz factor. To me though BSG is most overrated because of the enormity of the praise it gets. As if it's teflon coated (is that what the Cylons are made of?). Season 1 was fantastic, but since then it's been a ton of hectoring drudgery (that boxing episode? "All Along the Watchtower"?) surrounding brief moments of brilliance.

Also hasn't io9 only been around for a few weeks? That would go a bit toward explaining its high recent profile here.
I think BSG has been non-stop brilliant from the start up until the rescue from New Caprica in S3.
When I compare Firefly, the first season of Buffy, and the first season or half season of Angel, Firefly definitely comes out on top. Other than that, it's bit like comparing a short story to a novel and complaining that former doesn't cover as much ground in much detail as the latter.
I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks BSG is the most overrated. I watched the first season and then totally lost interest. I agree - too many religious overtones.

I judge how good a series is by whether I will watch the episodes over and over. In addition to our BIG 3, which I watch endlessly, I also loved the Dresden files enough to buy and watch periodically.
Next up, we ask the internet: Is Joss Whedon overrated?

7% Yes, I wish his fans would go away.
89% No, he is awesome. Have you not seen Firefly? Here, borrow my loaner copy.
4% No, and we are not amused by the question.
I voted for 'Lost' as over-rated, I think they have wasted more air time on unnecessary repetitive flash backs, and monotonous 'the story so far' episodes, than any other show ever to be televised.

Personally I don't think SG1 is on the list because the site owners don't rate it highly enough to consider it over rated.

So I'm going with Firefly>Buffy>>>>Angel, only because of the intensity of my own love and devotion (I want to live on Serenity more than anything). But I have to say that I'm thinking that the Angel: After the Fall comic is edging out Buffy Season 8 for my excitement/love.
I voted for Heroes as the most overrated because while good, it still isn't as good as the hype machine says it is. I find the writing too uneven, thankfully for the show it has several good actors to overcome sometimes terrible scripts.

I think Lady Brick is correct that you really can't compare Firefly with BtVS and AtS because of its short run.

I also think the extreme love Firefly gets is due to its short run. Nobody had a chance to get tired of it. If we had five years of Firefly, people would love it, but not with the passion they have for it now. It's like the two week love-affair someone has in Paris, you remember it fondly because there was no emotional scars because of the end.
Oh yeah, BSG is overrated as well. I like it, but it also doesn't deserve the unbinding love it gets.

Edit: This is to cover up for the double post.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-02-05 19:51 ]
I've never seen a single episode of Lost, but from what people tell me, it would probably get my vote.

I put my check next to BSG. I watched the miniseries and all of season one and, while I didn't dislike it and while I did recognize the quality of what was in front of me, for whatever reason the show has just never connected with me. It comes down more to personal taste than over/underrating, but hey.
I think the Sarah Connor Chronicles is the only overrated show on the list. The dialogue in last night's episode was so bad, I spent much of the time cringing. The best part of the show is Cameron, and I'd rather see Summer Glau in a good show - not that garbage.
I think if Firefly was allowed to blossom into 5+ seasons, it would have been a great show and possibly Joss's best work. But as it stands, it's merely an entertaining peek at what might have been great. And it is a little confusing when people say those 13 episodes are better than the entire 250+ episodes of the Buffy verse. I'm all for cool concepts, but in order for a TV show to be great, there needs to be arcs and character growth and callbacks and everything else that can only be afforded when working with a 100+ hour canvas. Firefly just can't compete with Buffy in that aspect, so it cannot surpass it as a TV show.

Serenity, however, was a great movie.
I'm curious as to who the several good actors are on Heroes. Kristen Bell's the only one I can think of, and she's barely a regular.
I personally think Bell, Adrian Pasdar, Masi Oki, the guy who plays Ando, Jack Coleman and maybe Zachary Quinto are good actors. Especially Jack Coleman.

Personally, if they made a Serenity sequel, I would love to see Jack Coleman play the head of the Alliance.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-02-05 20:07 ]
Took me a long time to get around to watching Firefly. I was really into Buffy and Angel and I didn't like the idea of this new upstart show taking Joss away from his original babies. Because of that I avoided watching it for ages.

Which makes me an idiot. Firefly is in no way overrated. Underrated, in the fact that it isn't still on the air and churning out it's sixth or seventh season, perhaps. Excellent television.

From the list I had to choose Doctor Who. I don't dislike it as much as I once did (David Tennant actually made it watchable for me) but it still is far and away the worst show of those options, with Heroes coming in second place to the good Doctor.

Lost, BSG and, obviously, Firefly are must watch shows for me and Terminator is far too early in it's run to be fairly judged against those others.
I'll admit, I've never watched a complete episode, but I honestly don't think it needed ten seasons.

Hee, there's nothing quite like an informed opinion ... and (1,2,3 all together now ;) that was nothing like an informed opinion ;-).

Firefly overrated ?

And an unrelated question: "Firefly fans - easily trolled ?" ;).

And 'The Sarah Connor Chronicles' has been on for 4 frikkin' weeks, have people even had time to rate it, never mind overrate it ?

Probably the thinnest, reachiest poll we've ever linked to IMO and we've had some doozies. A new first in other words, Woot ! ;)

[ edited by Saje on 2008-02-05 20:14 ]
I had a really hard time choosing between Dr. Who and Heroes. In the end I decided that at least Dr. Who doesn't take its absurdity so seriously.

As for Firefly, 14 episodes or a gazillion seasons, I think it's by far Joss' best work, and possibly the best thing I've ever seen on television. Buffy changed my life, I worship Six Feet Under, and The West Wing makes me gape in awe, but Firefly is just inspired storytelling.
I propose a poll on the Thinnest, Reachiest Poll ever linked here.
But what would happen when we linked to it ? Recursive loop of doom, that's what. Seems like a job for metawhedonesque.com.
I voted for Lost, but Heroes was close. They should have made the poll of shows that were no longer on the air, I think (not that would do much to save either Lost or Heroes.)
dingoes8 is right.

It's a silly question, because it's not even close to being a finished body of work. It'd be like "rating a painting that has just been sketched out.

That said, a friend who writes for The Hollywood Reporter called me up after watching and said, "Damn, those idiots at Fox really screwed up...that could have been the greatest show in TV history."

That accolade will have to remain Buffy's, in my estimation.
Lost, without a doubt. the first season was good. it all went downhill from there.
I am, however, surprised Stargate isn't there.
to me, it's more like Buffy>Firefly>Angel
I don't know why is Veronica Mars being discussed, but i gotta say, i loved that show.

I actually can't believe Doctor Who is on that poll.
it's no fair to judge on ratings, since American ones are different to British ones. Doctor Who does great in the UK. yes, Doctor Who can be cheesy, campy, cracky, right-down silly and absolutely ridiculous but that's what's fun about it. it's part of it. if it were so serious and realm then it wouldn't be Doctor Who.
Sorry, just my inner Who fangirl jumping to the defense.

[ edited by okelay on 2008-02-05 22:20 ]
okelay - Please watch the capitalizaton and the new line for every second sentence or so, it makes your posts harder to read. And I agree that the ridiculousness is part of older Who's (and to a lesser extent, new Who's) appeal.
sorry, it got posted twice for some reason

[ edited by okelay on 2008-02-05 22:18 ]
Lost got my vote. I can't stand all the pointless flashbacks in the previous seasons.


I'm with you there. I think Lost is highly overrated. I still watch it, and this season is better now that the pointless overly-sentimental flashback structure is gone, but it's not the greatest character writing some critics seem to claim. I find the characters pretty one-dimensional actually.

Heroes
Season one wasn't really better than season two, it was just newer.


I'll agree with that too. I can't decide which is more overrated. Probably Heroes, since I think Lost does have a little more going for it.

I'm seeing a pattern of snarky ambivalence to great Sci Fi in this poll. If they think Firefly is just a glorified show with zombies, BSG is just a soap opera with android babes, and Doctor Who is just campy moments strung together with schmaltzy music, they sure aren't looking very far beneath the surface. And these shows are the cream of the crop right now. Is there Sci-Fi they actually do like?

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-02-05 22:08 ]
If there's any Dutch scifi/Firefly fans on here, Firefly and Angel are currently being shown on the Dutch SciFi channel and I'm trying to get a SciFi channel viewergroup going on the site/tvguide I work for, Zie.nl. So if any Dutch people wanna join and talk about the shows being shown on the Dutch SciFi channel... please feel welcome. You'll have to sign up for Zie.nl to be able to post.
Sorry, zeitgeist, you lost me, what do you mean by "...and the new line for every second sentence or so..." should it be more separate, more different lines or less separated?
Let me preface this by saying that I enjoy all of the shows on this poll except and Firefly and ,obviously, the ones I haven't seen. I caught Firefly on DVD because I had no idea it was even on television when it was. I just could not get into it like I did with Joss' other shows (and I caught Buffy in reruns on F/X, having never watched a single episode in its original run). I probably just don't "get" Firefly like most other fans do, which is part of the problem. If a show isn't entertaining to me after the first 2 or 3 episodes, I give it a thumbs down. I like the actors (Caleb, Hamilton) and the characters and plot seemed interesting, but I fell asleep during almost every episode. And no, I do not have narcolepsy. The only part of the show that I did mostly enjoy is the song during the opening credits. Very catchy.

From most overrated to least overrated:

1. Firefly (see above)
2. Battlestar Galactica (it's tough to follow at times, but I like it for the most part)
3. Doctor Who (I <3 Rose and haven't watched since she left the show, mostly because I haven't had time to)
4. Lost (too many convoluted plots, but overall, it's pretty good)

*Haven't seen Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles so I do not have an opinion.

*I've only watched a few episodes of Heroes so it wouldn't be fair for me to rate it.
Firefly is way, WAY >>>>>>> Buffy and Angel. It was totally Joss' masterpiece idea, I concur with whomever said that. Every character, nearly every moment of the show was downright perfect - in the not-even-completed first season! A lot of sci-fi I enjoy was pretty stiff and terrible in the first season, since it usually takes awhile for everything to ease together. But Firefly was immaculately perfect from square one. I can only imagine how perfect it would've been if had gone on and on. It just never got the chance it deserved.

Buffy always seemed so cheesy to me, ahaha. I couldn't enjoy it anywhere near as much as Firefly, not that it's not well written.. but yeah. Teenage vampire slayer, eh.

I voted for Lost.
I vote for Lost, which started with a bang and then spent 3 years treating its viewers like s**t. I found it must watch viewing in S1, and then completely lost it when the final reveal at the end of S1 was... the hatch. That was it- all those things not answered then, and to this day not answered- Lostzilla, 4-toe foot, etc., more and more people showing up, and writers who think we are amazed by their going from flash backs to flash forwards. Wow. I no longer watch, and even more, no longer even bother to find out what is going on. I simply do not care any more.

I am enjoying T:TSCC a lot. I don't much care for Thomas Dekker or his character, but strong women, well, that's a Joss thing. I like Firefly a lot, though I do not consider it the equal of Buffy, which gets my vote now and forever as the best show ever put on TV.
To me though BSG is most overrated because of the enormity of the praise it gets. As if it's teflon coated (is that what the Cylons are made of?). Season 1 was fantastic, but since then it's been a ton of hectoring drudgery...


Season 1 was fantastic, but I thought season 2 was better.

I think BSG has been non-stop brilliant from the start up until the rescue from New Caprica in S3.


Agreed. It started to lose me mid-season 3, but the final few episodes rocked my socks.
Hobnail, Doctor Who without Rose is nowhere near as fun as it was with her. although it depends on wether or not you like Martha. i don't, so i particularly enjoyed s3. However, the last 3 episodes are a must see. "Blink" cause it is the single most terrifying hour of television i have ever see and the three-parter simply because of John Simm.
Dana5140 - "I vote for Lost, which started with a bang and then spent 3 years treating its viewers like s**t. I found it must watch viewing in S1, and then completely lost it when the final reveal at the end of S1 was... the hatch. That was it- all those things not answered then, and to this day not answered- Lostzilla, 4-toe foot, etc., more and more people showing up, and writers who think we are amazed by their going from flash backs to flash forwards. Wow. I no longer watch, and even more, no longer even bother to find out what is going on. I simply do not care any more."

The thing with Lost is that so many of the questions have already been answered, you just have to have been paying attention and be aware enough to put two and two together.

I think that Lost suffers from trying to be too clever for it's own good. It doesn't offer anything on a plate and expects the viewer to do a lot of the work for themselves, something many just aren't willing to do. I'm not knocking anyone who has lost interest in the show for their lack of intelligence here. It's not so much about intelligence as it is about simply giving the information you have been offered a little more thought than is usually expected. Do that and you will probably find that much has already been explained to you, at least to a degree. I've yet to find anything in the Lost canon that didn't connect together with other information to give more of an idea about what was going on.

Okay, the statue of the foot with four toes is still waiting for a little extra information, but one detail in three season ain't bad. ;)

The answers will probably all be made clear by the time the show ends for anyone not willing to work it out for themselves or follow the various other parts of the story online and wherever else. Personally I love to work it out for myself, especially when it turns out that my theories were correct, but I get that others may not be so forgiving for the supposed slow pace of the series.

What I will say, regarding the idea that the show went downhill after season one, is that I absolutely disagree. Even the episodes that appear to be treading water (and I'll admit that there were a few) do offer the occasional flash of information that plays into other parts of the story. When watched back after the show has ended I tend to think season two may prove to be one of the most significant of all.
I'm glad about Firefly, but perturbed about Lost being ahead in votes. One of my favourite shows. I voted for Heroes, haven't watched a few of the others, but really they're all good shows. I would have said Stargate.
Firefly overrated?

Hellz no.

That is my critical examination of the issue.

And I want the Lost hate to stop. :'(
The problem Lost has is the commercial reality of American television. That is, for it to be seen as profitable they have to string it out for multiple years (at least six). Had it been a one or two series deal, BBC style, I'm pretty sure it would have been seen as one of the greatest TV series of all time.
The statement "Veronica Mars was unwatchable" should be punishable by a good old Nickelodeon sliming. Then, every time the offender mutters the words "Veronica," "Mars," "was," and "unwatchable," they will be slimed with increasingly green, goopy, stinky slime until they come to their senses.
Dingoes ate miy baybee.

*drinks*

Oh, sorry, wrong thread.

*drinks again*

I violently disagree with the above assertion that our Contentious Poll Drinking Game beverage should be cognac. While I would never turn down a beaker of this fine distillation, I much prefer the character and health benefits of armagnac. And the idea that chartreuse could even be considered for such a use is both ridiculous and alarming.

Anyone who does prefer cognac should be beaten soundly with a cricket bat, stuffed into a barrel and aged for several years in a dark cellar.

*drinks again*
I don't know about overrated - I'd have to know how highly others have rated these shows before trying to determine whether or not the ratings were accurate. And that sounds like far too much work.

I enjoy Lost for its occasionally sublime moments. I like Heroes for its ambition, but feel pretty let-down in the execution. Couldn't stick with BSG after the first season, but that might be a personal thing. Doctor Who has always been a nostalgia-trip more than anything for me. Haven't seen T:SCC. As for Firefly: it was rich and wonderful, despite having two or three episodes of less than stellar quality, IMO.

And, yes, this is a thin poll indeed - yet here I am posting about it. :-)
Next up, we ask the internet: Is Joss Whedon overrated?

7% Yes, I wish his fans would go away.
89% No, he is awesome. Have you not seen Firefly? Here, borrow my loaner copy.
4% No, and we are not amused by the question.
Sunfire | February 05, 19:42 CET


ROFL. i voted lost because T:SCC hasn't even screened here yet at all so is not eligible, and because i am so sick of watching the ads on tv here that go "ooh you see the monster on the island 5 weeks in a row" and you see absolutely nothing, ever. and i think they're getting jsut too damned complicated with so many cross stories. for that to work you'd surely have to have the entire show mapped out? And aren't zombies technically supposed to be dead peoples brought back to life?
Yeecch, the only reason Firefly is even in that poll is because io9 knows they'll get a ton of hits out of Whedon fans. It's been 6 years, I don't call that recent at all, especially when considering every other show listed is still uncanceled. If you're going to include Firefly, you should also include Babylon 5 which imo is one of the most overrated shows ever -- even though I loved its wooden cheesiness. :D
I do think Firefly is overrated. I think it's definitely the least of Joss' shows. Part of it is it's short run, but that's not my only reason. For me, everything in Buffy and Angel seemed to click. The universe, which they both shared, was just perfect.

With Firefly, however, i didn't get the same feeling. Firefly's first and only season was fantastic. It's pilot was better than either Buffy or Angel, they were great though, and there were a handful of episodes that are among ME's finest (Objects, Out of Gas, Ariel).

Whilst most aspects of the show worked brilliantly, i think there were some that didn't. The Mandarin, whilst i appreciated the bilingual aspect of the show, never sounded authentic. i kinda cringed when the actors had those lines. Less problematic was the western aspect. Most of it was great. It makes sense, since the human race is so spread out and most don't have access to modern technology, but every now and again it jarred. The best example of this was Heart of Gold. The whole whorehouse thing left me cold.


Despite all that, Firefly is still one of the great shows. I'm just being a little bit picky when comparing it to Buffy and Angel.

P.S. Those Starship Troopers helmets didn't help either. Kidding!!

P.P.S. I voted for Heroes by the way. It's the most uneven show i've ever seen. Some brilliant moments followed by some genuine doo doo, and it's getting worse.
How dare people vote for Firefly, BSG, and the new Doctor Who! MY PRECIOUS! ::sobs::

And yes, although Martha did grow on me, and even though Doomsday had a HUGE emotional impact, I miss Rose. And Blink was terrifying. And Human Nature/Family of Blood was beautifully done. And the moment when the Master says, "I win"... Oh. Heartbreaking. (And for those who shout, "Spoiler", it's not what you think! HAH!)

[ edited by ShamelessSingingRennie on 2008-02-06 07:45 ]
Voted for Heroes. Watched a few discs of the first season set and then gave up.

For me, it's Buffy>Angel>Firefly. Don't get me wrong, I love all of the shows and I do not think Firefly is particularly overrated. But like many have said, I can't justify putting it anywhere near the level of Buffy, given its short run. Had it gone for more than a season, and stayed consistent in its quality, it probably would be either up there with Buffy or beyond it.

Buffy just has that immortal quality to it and I think a lot of that has to do with watching the characters grow, get beaten down, and then grow some more. I think there are moments in Buffy that are instant modern classics, such as Buffy and Joyce watching TV together, in "Innocence."

And I really don't have anything new to add, so I'm going to leave now.
I'm not sure how you can compare any of the shows being discussed here. BSG, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly.

3 of those shows have one creator with a specific message and goal. BSG does a great job of taking historical issues and diving into them in a way that refreshes the topic and really brings to light in a smart way what its all about. Religious oppression, corrupt government, martial law, democracy, labor unions, for wage, terrorism, war, occupation, racism, and so much more.

Joss's shows rarely tap into those kinds of things the way Battlestar does and because of that in no way does it make it inferior or superior. Buffy to me is the greatest show of all time and thats because I grew up on it and the writing was brilliant. The direction was great for a TV show on a crappy TV station. BSG has depth and the acting is surprisingly good for a Sci Fi Channel series.

As for Veronica Mars. Its kinda like watching Prison Break. There will be episodes that surprise you how good it can be but you're really just watching for the couple of jokes, the ongoing gags and the one or two actors or characters that really shine (I'm thinking Logan Echols here).

As for Lost, well there are some things that should be thought out before they're produced. With all the money spent on Lost we could have had a trillion seasons of Firefly.
Someone needed to bump up his page for ad reasons, huh? Will not go there.
Voted for Dr Who as hadn't seen Sarah Connor chronicles.

How dare they put Firefly or BSG on this type of poll!
What does overrated mean, and who does the overrating?
"Lost" is, without a doubt, the most appropriately named Series ever. Miss one Episode and you're exactly that: Lost. You can guess what I voted for...
or is that against? :)
You could pick holes in any of those shows.

Firefly - Safe and Shindig are really dull. Also yes we get it, there's cowboys in space. Less with the subtle as a brick approach.

Battlestar Galactica - Season 3. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Doctor Who - The last Xmas special summed up all that was wrong with nu Who. Bloated, cliched and hammy.

Terminator Chroncicles - When you have to resort to making a tv series of an Arnie film, you know the show is going to be rubbish.

Heroes - Was there anyone on the show who didn't have powers? Also season 2. Why?

Lost - Look there's a secret. Look there's another secret. Look no explanation either.
Kinda like 'em all.

(Except Heroes.)
What does overrated mean, and who does the overrating?

Good question bschnell. A few people have suggested 'Stargate: SG-1' seemingly pretty much on the basis that it ran for 10 years (and they don't like it).

But during those ten years it was actually cancelled (then picked up by Sci-Fi) and for most seasons they were renewed very late (the creators have talked about trying to end each season as if it were their last while still leaving it open, much as Joss did with Buffy/Angel) so i'm not really sure how it qualifies.

Are we saying that because a show's popular (or supported by its studio) enough to survive cancellation (twice technically since there're two D2DVD movies on the way) it's overrated ? Even if (as far as I can tell) it's more or less ignored by the mainstream ?
The statement "Veronica Mars was unwatchable" should be punishable by a good old Nickelodeon sliming. Then, every time the offender mutters the words "Veronica," "Mars," "was," and "unwatchable," they will be slimed with increasingly green, goopy, stinky slime until they come to their senses.


Nice. You can't do that on Whedonesque.

Firefly - Safe and Shindig are really dull.


Safe? SAFE??? Oh no you di-in't, Simon. Safe is the most underrated episode of Firefly. Come on, it gave us Simon getting up on that post with River, saying, "Light it." That brings tears to my eyes every time. And it gave us "Big Damn Heroes". And River communing with cows all poetic like. It's a good solid episode.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-02-06 13:17 ]
And 'Shindig' has one of my contenders for best bit in 'Firefly'.
Sir Warwick Harrow: You have to finish it, lad. You have to finish it. For a man to lay beaten... and yet breathing? It makes him a coward.
Inara Serra: It's humiliation.
Mal: Sure. It would be humiliating. Having to lie there while the better man refuses to spill your blood. Mercy is the mark of a great man.
[lightly stabs Atherton with the sword]
Mal: Guess I'm just a good man.
[stabs him again]
Mal: Well, I'm alright.

Perfection, near as ;).

'Heart of Gold' on the other hand ...
I'm glad I'm not the only one here who thinks the answer to "Is Firefly Overrated?" is "Yes." Now, that's not to slight the series. I still think it's fantastic. "Overrated" doesn't mean "Bad," it just means "not as good as everyone makes it out to be." Firefly is excellent television, but there's several shows I prefer more. Particularly Angel and Buffy.

I could watch Buffy and Angel endlessly; I just don't see Firefly as nearly as rewatchable. Now, I fully admit that this isn't Firefly's fault; it's Fox's for canceling it. Considering the quality of those first episodes, Firefly would have been Joss' best show had it been offered a chance. Compared to the first seasons of Buffy or Angel, the quality is so ridiculously higher. But I go in for long stories with lots of continuity, and a handful of episodes, particularly being so episodic, don't hold my interest as well.

As for the poll, I've seen very little of Lost and The Sarah Connor Chronicles, and I'm a fan of the other four shows, and didn't feel like I could pick any. Heroes might get the nod, although it depends on if the quality comes back when the show returns. If they continue to stumble, it will be very unfortunate.
Kurse- please. I'm about as canny a viewer as exists, but I refuse to invest time in a show where the writers are screwing you over, extenidng issues well beyond any reasonable point, and even admit that they have done just that. There is a reason Lost lost viewers. And that reason is NOT that the viewers they lost are just dumber than those who stayed, and who want immediate gratification. It is that the show screwed around with its viewers in the worst possible way, with actors forced to do stupid things just because they were needed to do stupid things. Say what you will for Joss, his actors NEVER did stupid things. Lost is just lost.

In some ways, I felt that same about VM. I thought S1 VM was excellent, just gripping. I thought S2 sucked eggs. S3 began to get back on track, but fell victim to not using its core "Scoobies" like it should have, plus it made VM a bitch for too long.
Imo, only a minority of the audience doesn't [i]underrate[/i] "Firefly". Bits like "Objects in Space" for me count amont the best I've ever seen on TV.

LOST, btw, is also not overrated. It's just that a lot of viewers semm to me impatient, I would say, even ingrate. The well balanced texture of the narratives, the mostly coherent psychology of the figures, especially their parent issues affecting their wrong or bold decision making I find very well designed. Even if Smokey or the whole isle turned out to be mere McGuffins I couldn't call myself unsatisfied with what I've been given over three seasons.
I'm glad I'm not the only one here who thinks the answer to "Is Firefly Overrated?" is "Yes." Now, that's not to slight the series. I still think it's fantastic. "Overrated" doesn't mean "Bad," it just means "not as good as everyone makes it out to be." Firefly is excellent television, but there's several shows I prefer more. Particularly Angel and Buffy.

I could watch Buffy and Angel endlessly; I just don't see Firefly as nearly as rewatchable. Now, I fully admit that this isn't Firefly's fault; it's Fox's for canceling it. Considering the quality of those first episodes, Firefly would have been Joss' best show had it been offered a chance. Compared to the first seasons of Buffy or Angel, the quality is so ridiculously higher. But I go in for long stories with lots of continuity, and a handful of episodes, particularly being so episodic, don't hold my interest as well.


I won't say Firefly is overrated, since I rate all Whedon's shows that high, but I do agree with you that its short run doesn't allow it the layers and depth that Buffy and Angel have. I sure wish it'd had the chance to develop and grow.

With its practically pitch-perfect first season, I do think Firefly could have surpassed the other shows in terms of quality, if given time. I still can't say I'd ever put any show above Buffy as my favorite, since that show resonates with me the most -- but you never know. River's arc had the potential to do that very thing.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-02-06 14:21 ]
The issue (to me) isn't that its run was short, it's that its run was incomplete. 'Firefly' ran two episodes longer than sitcom perfection 'Fawlty Towers', the same (counting specials) as 'The Office' UK and only two fewer than 'Life on Mars', all very highly rated, all completely deserving of it IMO.

It would've been a totally different show if it'd been deliberately fashioned to be only 13 or 14 episodes long but not necessarily worse IMO.
Saje, I cited that passage from Shindig in an online attempt to get a good friend, who was highly skeptical, interested in watching Firefly.

It did the trick, and he adores the show.

And, yes, the incompleteness is what's so infuriating. As much as I loved Serenity, I have never been able to shake the feeling that I wish the closing scene with River and Mal had been the last episode of, say, Season 4 or 5 of Firefly, with all 40 or 50 episodes in between it and Objects in Space.

[ edited by Chris inVirginia on 2008-02-06 15:40 ]

[ edited by Chris inVirginia on 2008-02-06 15:40 ]
cleveland, not sure what you mean by "It's just that a lot of viewers semm to me impatient, I would say, even ingrate." Ingrate is where I get lost. What do you mean by that?

BTW, I think it is not that people are impatient. I think they want assurances that if they stick in there for the long haul they will be rewarded. They have not been; too much has been feckless in the writing. I understand YMMV, but I do tire of the "I get it, but all those others don't." I repear, Cruse and Lindlof have admitted they made serious mistakes; it is one of the reasons they have announced a final episode point for the show. So that people know that they will get answers by a specified point in time.
Hee, there's nothing quite like an informed opinion ... and (1,2,3 all together now ;) that was nothing like an informed opinion ;-).


Okay Saje, I'll give you that. ;) But SG1 still remains on the list for me.

I think some people can jump onto the Firefly wagon a little too ardently, but I won't say the show itself is overrated. It may not be the greatest show in existence, but it's up there, at least to me.

Now I'm about to commit blasphemy here, but I have to say it.

I love Buffy, and frankly the show has some of the greatest moments in scripted television. But am I the only one that occasionally gets tired of hearing how great Buffy is, even if it is true? I often feel all of the attention gets placed on Buffy, at the extreme expense of Joss's other shows. Firefly tends to come in second, and Angel barely gets mentioned at all. I'm not saying Buffy doesn't deserve the attention; the show was absolutely ground-breaking. But I have a feeling the history books are going to forget that Joss created three (hopefully four) amazing shows, not just one.
Simon: "Terminator Chroncicles - When you have to resort to making a tv series of an Arnie film, you know the show is going to be rubbish."

A: Going by that logic, I could say "When you have to resort to making a tv series of a Kristy Swanson film, you know the show will suck"

B: Say what you will about Arnold, but the first two Terminator films are highly respected.
My vote goes to Lost. I don't really see the psychology on Lost as particularly credible. I do like the mysteries on the show, but the characters don't really click with me; they did in season one, but not afterwards. You can say what you want about the way mysteries are revealed and the patience required, etc., but it doesn't excuse the shabby way I see most of the characters as being treated. Or, for that matter, the fact that so many episodes are pretty much devoid of emotional interest--or, frankly, intellectual, at least for me.

(A good example: why did Charlie "have to" die exactly? What was the narrative motivation there? The best answer I've ever heard is that the writers decided that it would feel like a cheat if he didn't die, after a season of Desmond saying he would. But that doesn't answer anything; what was the point of the plotline in the first place?)

Re: VM, I think that season one is terrific, season two is fairly strong and season three is a disaster.

Firefly is I think Joss' masterpiece, for now. And BSG, while not perfect, is strong.
Um, WilliamTheB, isn't that person's death kind of a spoiler? It would be for me anyway - if it hadn't been spoiled already.
Like many others have said, Firefly in no way compares to BtVS (or even Angel). First of all, I'm not a browncoat. I own Firefly, I got all my friends to watch it who in turn had other people watch, etc, but at no point was Firefly at the top of my favorite shows.

BtVS had 144 episodes, out of which I'd say maybe 5%-8% would be considered not so great. Angel had 110 episodes out of which I'd say 10% or so were not that great. Firefly had 15 episodes (15 in the sense that if BtVS's 2 hour eps like the Pilot and Bargaining are considered separate eps to get to the 144 total, then Firefly's 2 hour pilot should be 2 eps as well) and of it's 15 eps there were already a few that aren't considered top-notch.

Bushwacked, Safe, and Heart of Gold are the ones I refer to here, the ones that are widely considered the "lessers".

I voted for Lost in the poll (for obvious reasons...) but in terms of the Joss shows, there is just no way that Firefly compares. Firefly never got a chance to falter, never got a chance to explore controversial subject matter, it never got a chance to be anything but a lost opportunity, really.

I could pick out 15 eps of either BtVS or Angel that would put Firefly to shame, but I could also pick out 15 eps that compared to Firefly's 15 don't compare. Firefly definitely deserves all the spots it gets in the "gone before their time"-like lists and polls, but as far as best shows ever? No, sorry.

If Firefly were only meant for one season, or a short run (similar to the BBC Office or Extras) then that would be a different story. Those shows ended of their own accord, what we saw is everything the creative talent behind the scenes wanted to do. They got to finish, Firefly didn't.

One last thing: Firefly's first and only season easily trumps both BtVS and Angel's first seasons, but without the creative talent (mostly Joss, of course) getting to cut his/their teeth and get through some trial & error on BtVS and Angel there is no way Firefly would been as great as it got to be, for it's short run.
As much as I loved Serenity, I have never been able to shake the feeling that I wish the closing scene with River and Mal had been the last episode of, say, Season 4 or 5 of Firefly, with all 40 or 50 episodes in between it and Objects in Space.

Yep, I could've lived with that Chris. Ah well ;).

Okay Saje, I'll give you that. ;) But SG1 still remains on the list for me.

Fair enough deepgirl187 ;).

Kind of agree BTW, 'Angel' was also brilliant TV and (some days ;) I narrowly prefer it to BtVS. I get the same feeling watching 'Reprise'/'Epiphany' as I do with 'Objects in Space' i.e. how the hell did they sneak this onto mainstream broadcast television ? Were the suits off ill that day ? Or (glory be ;) did the suits get it and still let it ride ?

(course in 'Objects ...' case, they weren't quite sneaky enough unfortunately)
Odd. I love Buffy beyond the telling, find Firefly great television (though not equal) and have been completely unable to watch a full run of Angel. Just have never really enjoyed it that much, I guess.
Firefly is for sure overrated. It's the least overrated on this list, and I'm not saying it wasn't good, but it's far too short to be given the acclaim it received. Only time would have told if future seasons would have been as good - most shows suffer from a sophomore slump, and I don't believe the overall acclaim would have been as high.

As for most overrated on this list - I chose Lost. Any show that involves a complex storyline that requires it to be thought out in advance that is written by people who are making it up as they go along - doesn't sit well with me.

The Sarah Connor Chronicles has been on long enough to be overrated yet. And I haven't seen it, so I can't comment on it.
Heroes:

Ingredients:
Most major Superhero comics since 1930
Buffy
Lost
Watchmen
Teen Angst Dramas
1 TV Producer with no Sci-Fi Background
1 Struggling Network
1 mediocre writing staff
1 Decent Cast
Occasional moments of quality

Directions:

Observe that "Lost" is popular. Take the best of Sci-Fi since 1960, blend. Add mediocre writing talent. Digest thoroughly for mass-consumption. Broadcast.



(the most sarcastic post I`ve ever made)
I love all of the Joss shows (if Firefly had continued it might well have become my favorite), and I like the other shows on this list, too.
American Idol is overrated.
And jcs wins the thread!
Lost got my vote. I've only seen the first two seasons thus far, but I honestly don't have a strong desire to keep watching for enjoyment, rather just to find out what the hell is going on. I think the first season started well, with a number of good, well developed main characters and an introduction to the story that was tantalising and interesting.

However as time passes they continue to string out storylines much longer than they need to, and the plot often deviates and regresses unsatisfactorily. The flashbacks would work if they were used more sparingly but when they make up at least 1/3 to 1/2 of an episode they become tedious, and often make the characters less interesting rather than more so because of some of the ridiculous backstories.

I think Abrahams delivered on Alias because every season it brought a lot of plots and characters to a satisfying conclusion whilst still holding on to a few key overarching plots, for example Sydney's relationships with those around her, or the Rambaldi mythology. But every season and almost every episode saw these plots continually developing and deepening, whereas with Lost they continually stall and misfire, dragged out with little conclusion.

The result is that I think the show feels quite unsure of itself, and I have never felt like the writers always know where they are going or what all the crypic clues mean. I think Joss was probably more aware of how each season of his shows would begin and end, even though they never had to be as densely plotted as something like Lost which is largely based around ongoing, overlapping mysteries.

I agree that it's a lot better than much of the drama we are subjected to, but it's not among my favourite shows anymore, and I think that of the shows listed that I've seen, it gets the most disproportionate amount of attention and acclaim. I was glad when I heard that they had decided to finish with three full seasons and three 16 episode seasons, rather than protract the series any longer. I'm not sure whether the strike will affect the arrangement of episodes, but it will probably be roughly the same number overall. But even then I'm surprised that they are taking essentially 5 or 6 seasons to cover the kind of ground that something like Veronica Mars covered in 1 season, both in terms of satisfying character development and the introduction and resolution of complicated mysteries.

I disliked Dr. Who for quite some time, but I have come to understand the balance between absurd and serious better than I did before, and can appreciate it a lot more as a result. It's the kind of show that doesn't take itself too seriously so it's better not to take it too seriously yourself.

As for Heroes, I've only seen the first season but I have heard the second season has been disappointing so far. I thought that it delivered in most respects, I like the characters and storylines and I think that there is a lot of potential for them to keep the show going for a number of seasons without repeating themselves or running out of ideas. I don't quite rank it up there with the likes of Joss' shows, VM and BSG though. I think it sometimes lacks that little spark of wit and intelligence that I really enjoy. And I found the season one finale surprisingly free of the epic fight scenes I was anticipating.

Firefly and Battlestar Galactica are the only two shows on the list where I feel any hype cannot do their brilliance justice.
And let us not forget that Lost has a habit of jettisoning characters because of what their real life actors have done- wsitness the loss of thee main characters all of whom were having problems with the law. And also let us not forget all of S2, which introduced a slew of new characters, all of whom were forgotten by the beginning of S3. Feh>
First of all Firefly in the beginning wasn't hyped, so it couldn't be overhyped. The show was better than it was portrayed.
The 20th century Fox execs threw the show on the air with the train robbery (back to the old west theme) with no backstory and destroyed its credibility from the beginning. However, the FOX execs were right to an extent. The backstory (ep 11 and 12) was boring. Backstories usually are. JJ Abrams with Lost's first season found a way to incorporate backstories and not be boring.
I would like to see Whedon reedit the first couple of episodes and put in parts of ep 11 and 12 as flashbacks.
So we're going with armagnac, it's agreed? All in favor, take a quick drink.

*drinks*

(No, I'm not an alkie; I just play one on whedonesque.)

Yes, it's true, thanks for asking - dingoes did eat miy baybee.

I love Buffy and Angel and Firefly. My love is not unmixed, any more than is my love for my family and friends - but they are my family and friends, so whaddya gonna do?
deepgirl187: "But am I the only one that occasionally gets tired of hearing how great Buffy is, even if it is true?"

I never get tired of hearing the truth about the only TV series I have ever loved.

I'm currently in the middle of season three of Angel and it is only my completist nature that is propelling me onwards.

I was happily stunned when I first viewed Firefly because I loved the concept and the execution of the concept and River, who may have eventually become my favourite JW creation.
moley75 - keep watching Angel!! Season 3 is awesome (especially the cliffhanger ending) and season 5 is the absolute best.

I had to go with Heroes (if I had to pick one. I would agree on American Idol). My big issue with Heroes is the lack of comedy. There is just so few witty lines. The writing at times is crap. My biggest beef with Heroes is them not utilizing Greg Grunberg, the king of natural comedy/acting. It's like the creators have never seen Felicity or Alias. Give the guy some good lines already! He can deliver them, dudes! OK, rant over.
Most of the people here, never fail to amuse me.

This is such a Vampire-centric place.
Buffy
Angel
Fray
Goners
Ripper
Spike

See anything common threads here folks?

This is a Whedonesque site and Firefly usually takes a beating here and that is just wild.

One should never confuse Quantity with Quality, by the way. Cuban coffee comes in a small cup but has one helluva kick. Firefly may have only had a limited run, but it was a fantastic, near flawless piece of work and in such a short amount of time, shown out of order and moved around , still made an impact on the people who were able to see it.

Adult struggles to survive and be the master of your own destiny. To live your life the way you see fit and not have to conform. These are things that most adults understand and why Firefly has such an affect on some.

The teen angst thing, not so much.

I voted for BSG. I watched the first year and thought it would get better, but it was rubbish. If I have to listen to that assclown Balter for one more second, I was going to lose my lunch. Starbuck was a horrible character. Apollo was a lame, weak, pus. Saul the drunk.
There are no likable characters on that show.
BSG - not overrated. Best damn SF show in a decade.

Doctor Who - not overrated. I think it gets its fair share of criticism. It's rated about right.

Sarah Connor - not overrated, because I still haven't heard glowing praise of it. It's better than I expected it to be, but it's not brilliant and nobody ever said it was.

Heroes - overrated. Way overrated. Not even the first season was as good as everyone thought it was. Season Two got some criticism, but people still loved it way beyond what they should for a two-dimensional super hero series.

Lost - way overrated. I stopped watching early Season Two. End of season three grabbed me and I'm on board for Season Four. But it's so full of padding and crap - and yet critics review it like it's the greatest thing ever.

Firefly - what can I say? I loved it and then I lost it. I got Serenity, but that's it for SereniFly. Overrated? Not at the time. Maybe now we're a bit too nostalgic about it. Still a damn great start to a series - but it's been five years.
Sarah Connor is much fun; I quite enjoy it, outside of not liking Thomas Dekker, but he is not the reason to watch, he is just the macguffin. Two strong women characters are the reason to watch, both of whom do what is necessary with one not really worrying the fall out.

Firefly- great stuff, but a couple of eps were more filler, less taste. Pales compared to Buffy, but then so does everything in the known universe.

Hell, Joss had to write a movie to kill a main character off in Firefly. Buffy did that in its first episode. :-) And in its 12th, its 30th, 34th, etc. etc. etc. And it had way more metaphor. :-)
Most overrated recent show is "Reaper". Seriously...the next person who says it's the new Buffy is going to make me pick my nose with my middle finger.

I just the Firefly series with my Mom last month. She loves it. When I brought the Serenity movie out, she practically ripped it out of my hands....like a 51 year old woman going on 17. Why that matters? I guess because she has no patience and if something isn't good *immediately* she will make me "turn that crap off."

I have a biased opinion of Sci-Fi...and I know it. It has to suck so bad that I can't ignore that it sucks. Ahh...Painkiller Jane...how I wanted to love you...or at least like you.
This is a Whedonesque site and Firefly usually takes a beating here and that is just wild.

If anything, Firefly seems to get a smaller volume of criticism here simply because there's less material to work with and the show didn't get far enough along to develop factions within the fandom. If the site seems more vampire-friendly, I think it's more due to the comparative length of the shows. 7 seasons of Buffy makes for more conversation than Firefly. Plus we get new Buffy and Angel information monthly now. My thoughts on who Twilight is change every issue, but my opinion on Book (not an Operative) has been said, and until the comic previews are up, there's just only so much to talk about (he wasn't an Operative).
This is a Whedonesque site and Firefly usually takes a beating here and that is just wild.


Ummmm no. That really doesn't happen here.
"This is a Whedonesque site and Firefly usually takes a beating here and that is just wild."

I think it all started back when Simon said he wasn't a Browncoat. I knew instantly that something fishy was going on. I strongly suspect the real Simon has been captured by angry Smallville fans and we are dealing with an imposter.

[ edited by Succatash on 2008-02-07 09:13 ]
If you don’t like a show and others are effusive in their praise of it, you will probably think it is overrated. Equally, if you love a show and others are critical of it, the inclination is to claim it is underrated. I would claim that ‘Point Pleasant’ was underrated, but others would point out a myriad of faults they identified and say it had little merit and deserved to be cancelled so quickly.

I am not fond of ‘Firefly’ and have to admit I find the zealous love of the show somewhat mystifying. I tried watching a couple of episodes of ‘BSG’, but I couldn’t fathom the reason for its reputation and didn’t stay with it. Having said that, I would not say these shows are overrated, simply that they are not to my taste.

I haven’t got to the end of S1 of ‘Heroes’ as yet. It’s very hit or miss, but I like the hits. I stopped watching ‘Lost’ after season one, but a part of me thinks that one day I will revisit the show. I haven’t seen ‘The Sarah Connor Chronicles’. I love ‘Doctor Who’ and I am biased enough that I am sure I probably overrate it in the eyes of others.

I tend to agree with deepgirl187 about the constant reference to the brilliance of ‘Buffy’ sometimes becoming a little tiring, not because it isn’t true (it most certainly is), but simply because there are lots of other great shows out there and not all of them are the work of Joss Whedon.

As has already been mentioned, these kinds of polls serve very little purpose other than to encourage argument – or lively debate. When it comes down to it, does it matter if a show is overrated or not?
I strongly suspect the real Simon has been captured by angry Smallville fans and we are dealing with an imposter.

In fairness Succatash, if you were a 'Smallville' fan, you'd be angry too.

And James is on 'Smallville' tonight ! It's the one where (*spoilers*) he does something and then Clark has to stop him.

Yeah, i'm bad ;-).
This is a Whedonesque site and Firefly usually takes a beating here and that is just wild.


Huh. I thought we loved Firefly here. Weird.

One should never confuse Quantity with Quality, by the way. Cuban coffee comes in a small cup but has one helluva kick. Firefly may have only had a limited run, but it was a fantastic, near flawless piece of work and in such a short amount of time, shown out of order and moved around , still made an impact on the people who were able to see it.


To defend my earlier comment about loving Buffy more than Firefly (and it's not even fair to say that, since I love them in different ways and for different reasons), my deep fondness for Buffy over all else is purely a sentimental reaction to how that show dramatically affected my life. It brought to me a mythos -- the story of the warrior woman -- with a rich history & culture, and a message of self-empowerment. That's what Buffy is to me.

And I'm separating Buffy from Angel alot these days when I talk about this, but for the longest time I couldn't play favorites. The Buffyverse really is one entity to me, including Buffy, Angel, and Fray as well. I love the history in those stories.

I also loved the expanded history of the Firefly-verse in the movie Serenity. In fact, when I went to the first advanced screening, I came out of the theater claiming it to the best thing Joss had ever made. But it's all just relative to how I feel at the time. In 5 years, maybe Dollhouse will replace Buffy as my personal favorite TV show ever (gods willing).

Adult struggles to survive and be the master of your own destiny. To live your life the way you see fit and not have to conform. These are things that most adults understand and why Firefly has such an affect on some.

The teen angst thing, not so much.


I agree with the first statement, but the second? Buffy is so much more than that.

But I know there is a lot out there other than Buffy. Like Dexter, which is the best show on any TV channel (cable or otherwise) everytime it's on. That show knocks everything else out of the water, it's so damn good.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-02-07 11:27 ]
So late to this party but hey .... Lost got my vote, I've given each season a go and found it to be unremittingly awful. Heroes, a close second.

BtS will always be first in my heart, but Firefly is my second favorite Joss show, it is IMO very close to perfect. We'll never know if they could have maintained that level of excellence, but based on Serenity, I'd say there was a good chance.
Angel is a distant third, although it has brilliant moments, most of which revolve around Alexis Denisof or take place in the Darla arc.

And considering BSG overrated should be a crime punishable by being tossed out the air lock. (Just IMHO :)

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