That seemed like a pretty fair and evenhanded review. I am not so much the art critic, so I don't have much of an opinion on his take there, but the concern about too many cast members showing up too soon seems quite accurate. Of course, the story's not all told yet--now that we've gotten so many folks back into the mix, where all are they headed next? That is a far more interesting question, filled with possibilities... If Brian uses the characters well and appropriately, any sense of jumble in their rapid introduction will be quickly forgiven, I expect.

jclemens | February 27, 05:13 CET

That seemed like a really good review, but the overall score was 7/10? That didn't match with the review at all...

patxshand | February 27, 05:49 CET

To me, Angel S6 seems to 'speak the language of comics' better than Buffy S8. By that I mean that Buffy, when it's good, seems more so for the writing than the art, and that the art, while not always unpleasant, is more often a distraction that doesn't seem entirely integrated with the characters or their actions. And this isn't because I don't think the drawings look like the characters we know and remember -- sometimes I find the resemblances startling.

In contrast, the writing on Angel is just as good or better and yet the crucial difference is that *this* I can completely imagine seeing onscreen, "for real". And this distinction doesn't seem entirely a (dys)function of anything lacking in the Buffy storylines, but rather that Angel manages to present the visual information more integrated with the story, despite the fact that its laboring under the same constraints as Buffy, and in a way that (again, to me) seems much more plausible as "the real thing".

(Which is doubly impressive, as I've always considered the comic continuations "official fanfic" as opposed to canon :)

damaged justice | February 27, 06:25 CET

Well, not to get into that old debate again, but canon isn't really about what you consider. It just is. Like peanut-butter and jelly. I can consider PB&J to be turkey, but... it's still PB&J. (lol)

patxshand | February 27, 06:55 CET

BunnyDee, do you have some kind of connection with the Nexus?

zeitgeist | February 27, 07:32 CET

A fan connection I think, zg, not a B & G connection. (Yes, I went there.)

SoddingNancyTribe | February 27, 08:57 CET

I felt the first four issues of Buffy Season 8 felt a little disjointed, and overly busy with setting things up and catching up with the cast. I felt exactly the same way about the first four issues of the Angel continuation ...

Buffy has since delivered some impressively strong issues, including some real emotional punch in the standalones (and I totally grooved on the Faith storyline, too). Given that, I have high hopes for where Angel is going, because the setup has tons of potential.

I think these were good comics, but I also believe they're the setup for far better ones to come.

Ghalev | February 27, 12:25 CET

*That seemed like a really good review, but the overall score was 7/10? That didn't match with the review at all... *

Ya I agree. It was a great review - and then just a 7. I would personally give the first few issues a 9 overall......:)

angeliclestat | February 27, 14:48 CET

You did read the review? He liked it in general, but didn't like the rushing of introductions, and the start seems more like preparing for the actual plots, instead of actually doing the plot. I think th 7 is pretty much on par with the review. As a fan he obviously concentrated more on the good stuff than the bad.

Me myself don't really like the Angel comics that much. I'll keep downloading, but if it stays like it is now, I won't be actually buying them. And the downloading is more of a fan-responsibility than actually liking the content. The stuff does indeed move on faster than Buffy, but even though I'm annoyed to wait 4 months for a single story arch there, it's still better, at least to me.

Though, I never really got into Angel the tv-series either, somehow it was mostly disappointing to me. Season 1 was a good start, and I liked the Darla/Dru parts in season 2, but too many times I just didn't like the things they showed. Especially the karaoke, oh boy should they have left that at one song. I'm really not sure what rubbed me so much, in general I liked the plots and grand elements, I guess I just didn't attach to the characters. Well, at least they managed to throw in a good last season, managed to salvage alot, even with Cordy missing.

Eerikki | February 27, 15:14 CET

Eerikki - you download but don't buy? It's one thing if you download cos you can't wait to read them, and then buy a copy. But downloading them without paying for it goes against everything you should be doing. IDW is a small company and it's unfair to the writer and artist, and indeed the Angel line itself to do that. If everybody just downloaded and didnt buy, then there would be no more Angel.

And thinking of it as 'fan-responsibility'? It's the opposite of ''fan-responsibility''. If you don't like it fair enough, then don't buy it. But don't think you are being a 'good fan' buy rwading but not paying for it.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2008-02-27 13:49 ]

angeliclestat | February 27, 16:47 CET

But downloading them without paying for it goes against everything you should be doing.

So we're not expected to buy the trade paperbacks then?

beergood | February 27, 17:31 CET

*So we're not expected to buy the trade paperbacks then? *

I'm confused.Do you mean you dont want to buy the individual issues but wanna wait for the TPB?Ya thats cool,you can buy the trade paperbacks instead of the individual issues - nothing wrong with that. I plan to and have all my individual issues too.

But as I said, if you download the comics and never buy them whether individually or in TPB format (as was implied by Eerikki)...then it's just wrong.

angeliclestat | February 27, 18:02 CET

I'm not sure what other opinions are, but I download them and buy them. Considering how much I re-read my comics, I'd rather have a digital copy instead of mangling my originals with constant handling.

However, I do believe that just downloading without purchasing is theft. It's a horrible thing to do to the writers and artists who work so hard to provide us with these stories.

As for the review, I agree with the writer to an extent. However, I don't feel that the introductions were rushed. Actually, I'm relieved that almost everyone is finally accounted for, now we can get to the real meat of the story.

Whistler | February 27, 18:08 CET

I don't support downloading no matter what. If you're going to buy it, buy it and be patient until you get it. That's what I did when my comic sold out of Buffy #1. Downloading is theft. Even if you buy later, it's still not good.

Eerikki... yes, I read the review. But 7/10 still doesn't match the review. 7/10 is like getting a 70 on an exam. It's not a good grade. It means that it wasn't bad (5/10 and below) but that it isn't enough to be considered "good" (8/10 and above). From the way the guy talked about the good about 10 times more than the bad, I was at LEAST expecting him to give an 8/ or 9/ out of 10.

If I reviewed the four issues (I don't see the point, as 1-5 are the first arc), I'd give it a 9/10. The first two are perfect 10/10s and the most recent two are solid 9/10s, so it'd even out to a 9/10 for me. On the average, I'd probably give Buffy: Season Eight either the same grade or an 8/10 (8.5?). The recent issues have been good, but #4 was a weak ending and "The Chain" was a steaming hot mess.

patxshand | February 27, 18:56 CET

I thought "The Chain" was beautiful. And I'm loving After the Fall.

SoddingNancyTribe | February 27, 19:15 CET

My first thought was "the opposite of fan-responsibility" as well.
I do download, because I can't wait, my local comic shop sucks, but I then buy them, usually every cover I can get my hands on.

Xane | February 27, 19:32 CET

Like Xane, I buy both covers and download (I also buy the TPBs.) Because I tend to reread - particularly as each new issue comes out, not to mention for reference when questions come up on one of the boards I visit - I really don't want to destroy the copies I've bought, and having a digital copy gives me something I can use for frequent perusing without having to worry about trashing every issue and having to re-buy; if you're going to do that, there's no point in buying the different covers, just get one to read (probably just wait till the TPB comes out; that's what I've done with other series.) I've spent a fortune over the years replacing worn-out copies of books and tapes, and shouldn't have to keep on doing that now that there's a viable alternative.

Rowan Hawthorn | February 27, 19:54 CET

I don't support downloading no matter what. If you're going to buy it, buy it and be patient until you get it. That's what I did when my comic sold out of Buffy #1. Downloading is theft. Even if you buy later, it's still not good.

Sorry, but if I buy the comic I see nothing wrong with acquiring a digital copy. Why should I, and other honest folks, be penalized because of a few bad apples? To save the hassle, Darkhorse and IDW should have a service similar to Marvel's. I pay $5/mo for their online service and it's been great.

I thought "The Chain" was beautiful. And I'm loving After the Fall.

Agreed, both have been remarkable. My only gripe is that we have to wait a month between installments. I'd buy them weekly if they were able to churn them out that quickly.

Whistler | February 27, 20:01 CET

To me, Angel S6 seems to 'speak the language of comics' better than Buffy S8. By that I mean that Buffy, when it's good, seems more so for the writing than the art, and that the art, while not always unpleasant, is more often a distraction that doesn't seem entirely integrated with the characters or their actions. And this isn't because I don't think the drawings look like the characters we know and remember -- sometimes I find the resemblances startling.

In contrast, the writing on Angel is just as good or better and yet the crucial difference is that *this* I can completely imagine seeing onscreen, "for real". And this distinction doesn't seem entirely a (dys)function of anything lacking in the Buffy storylines, but rather that Angel manages to present the visual information more integrated with the story, despite the fact that its laboring under the same constraints as Buffy, and in a way that (again, to me) seems much more plausible as "the real thing".

Dude, I totally agree with this. Yet, you've managed to express it much more eloquently than I ever could.

I'm enjoying both, if only for the novelty of having these characters back. Though, maybe my (slight) preference for After the Fall comes from the fact that I always preferred Angel to Buffy on TV. Mostly because the writing was more consistent and compelling throughout. I don't necessarily think the writing was "better", just more ambitious (which isn't to say Buffy wasn't). They were trying to make the series more novelic from "To Shanshu in L.A." onward and were pretty successful in doing that.

[ edited by TheSandyLlama on 2008-02-27 17:03 ]

Dirk | February 27, 20:02 CET

Downloading illegally is the opposite of "fan responsibility". You're actually hurting the comic big-time when you do that.

And to announce you're doing it, proudly? Classless.

Brian Lynch | February 27, 21:52 CET

Thank you, Brian Lynch, that pretty much nails it on the head.

Apollo Gilgamesh | February 27, 21:58 CET

I dug that review though. Very much. And the first four issues were absolutely establishing where everyone was while spinning the wheels that would eventually draw them all in.

As the series went on, I referred to the comic in three arcs: 1. Reunion, 2. Rewind, and 3...

...oh that's the doozy!

Brian Lynch | February 27, 22:10 CET

Downloading "illegally" to me is closer to "renting from library". Do I feel bad that I downloaded stuff from internet? No. Do I feel bad I bought most of the good stuff after downloading? Again, no.

I was away from comics for several years, for this reason or that, not really buying stuff or even reading them other than webcomics. When Buffy came out, I downloaded the first 4 episodes, liked them and decided to get the TPB. And since then I not only bought the trade paperback, but I've spent maybe 200 euros on comics since, pretty much only because I downloaded stuff and liked it. And I'm planning to buy more, all the Buffys at least, as soon as the trade paperbacks come out. Now, should I feel bad because I download the episodes in advance? I don't really think so. And if I end up liking the Angels more (sorry about being negative so far, but you can't expect everybody to like everything anyway), I will buy them too.

Now, if I could get the single magazines for the $3 they are sold in the US, I might buy them instead of downloading, I do prefer reading them in paper. But, they cost more than double that, and like I said, I do prefer the paperback versions.

And let me repeat once more, _after_ I downloaded stuff I buy them. Same with movies. Assuming I like it enough, that is.

PS: There are some half-assed tries on buyable web-comics, there was a link here even. But, the solution was a horrendous flash monster, that was really really annoying to use. The torrent sites provide better quality, so I pick them. I'd easily buy a buck for a comic, if it was in decent format, but not much more than that, at least as long as I'll get the paper version later anyways.

Eerikki | February 27, 22:16 CET

You steal work. Specifically here, you're stealing something I'm working insanely hard on. So you'll pardon me if I don't buy your really long-winded diatribe trying to justify it.

Let's break this down:

"Downloading "illegally" to me is closer to "renting from library". Do I feel bad that I downloaded stuff from internet? No. Do I feel bad I bought most of the good stuff after downloading? Again, no."

No, downloading illegally (and don't put it in quotes, it's absolutely illegal) is akin to buying a bootleg of on the street of a movie that's in theaters. Congrats on being that guy!

Brian Lynch | February 27, 22:25 CET

"And let me repeat once more, _after_ I downloaded stuff I buy them. Same with movies. Assuming I like it enough, that is."
I think it's the final part that's the killer. You like them enough to keep downloading but not to buy them. If you like them enough to keep reading then you should buy them, if you don't then stop reading them otherwise you are essentially stealing when you download them illegally.

helcat | February 27, 22:26 CET

Eerikki, in a fandom like ours that respects the writers (above all) who work so hard to give us what we love, you're not going to get much love for your stealing of their work and support of the sites that make stealing of said work possible. You're just not.

patxshand | February 27, 22:37 CET

That's the bottom line, isn't it? Downloading instead of buying shows a tremendous lack of respect. It's just shameful. Brian and Co. do an amazing job bringing this product to us and they deserve to be compensated.

[ edited by Whistler on 2008-02-27 19:49 ]

Whistler | February 27, 22:47 CET

Whilst I appreciate and emphasise with the reasons why people feel so very strongly on this matter, this thread is rapidly getting get out of hand and I am not terribly fond of posters arguing with each other (despite the uniqueness of the situation).

So I am politely asking that we get back to discussing the first four issues of After The Fall. If I have to ask again well hello f_w.

Simon | February 27, 22:49 CET

I love the first four issues of ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL!

Brian Lynch | February 27, 22:57 CET

You damned well better, self-hatred is a terrible thing. ;)

Whistler | February 27, 23:04 CET

After the Fall rocks:)

Next month cannot come fast enough!

angeliclestat | February 27, 23:46 CET

Duh, Simon. Might have been an interesting conversation! Ah well, you're right, this thread is about Angel and not about copyright.

I do wish I liked Angel. Unfortunately, I don't. I'm not saying the comic is bad, which it obviously isn't. It just doesn't "do" it for me. I'm sure part of that is from the Angel tv-series, which I didn't really get either. It too had its moments, but mostly it was just a generic better-than-most-others series, watch once and forget. I seriously considered selling the dvds after watching, but I decided to keep them for the occasional Buffy rewatch.

Still who knows, maybe I do start liking the comics too, and end up having to rewatch the series too. I do think it's possible, assuming the rushed introductions are done and the characters start getting more than a couple of panels each. Currently it just feels too rushed, too all-over-the-place, too confusing and directionless. Ah well, only first 4 out, here's hoping it'll start getting together.

Eerikki | February 28, 00:15 CET

I'm sorry, boot me if you want, or erase this message, but is it cool to have someone who is admitting to stealing the comics keep coming back and saying "I don't like this thing I'm stealing"? It sucks guys.

Brian Lynch | February 28, 01:15 CET

My apologies about hurting your feelings, Brian. I do understand your point of view, although I do not completely agree. I do value your artistic work, and there are a lot of good things in the Angel comics, and obviously many people like it alot. Anyway, fast stab at defending my points, and I'm off this thread.

First of all, it is not stealing. Stealing by definition is taking something away from somebody. If I copy something, it's not taken away from anybody. Big difference there. There is some implied loss for the creators, but you could say the same for listening to a song in radio or borrowing a book from library, you're not paying for it...

Second, I really have limited options here, ordering just a single issue trans Atlantic is costly, and like I stated before I do prefer the trade paperbacks. I would pay for the online reading, if there was an option to do so. However, it's impossible; the issues come out much much later (if at all) and in vastly inferior format (flash versus .cbr).

And, finally. I do buy the stuff I like. I just wait for the release of the paperback, and place an order for a bunch of comics at a time. Hence the comparison to the library, I first check it out and if I like it, I buy. Hell, I might buy the Angels too when the next Buffy album is out, depends what comics there are available (it's nicer to buy a bunch at once to split the postage).

Sorry about ranting and the bad vibes, I'm off now.

Eerikki | February 28, 03:39 CET

*First of all, it is not stealing. Stealing by definition is taking something away from somebody*

Yes it is. If you read the comics by downloading them without buying them it is stealing.You are creating a loss for the creators because that is money that you would have spent on their product gone.Think whatever you want to make yourself feel better but it is.

*If I copy something, it's not taken away from anybody.*

You are not copying.You dont have the original comic.

Oh and it's nothing like borrowing from a library. The books in library's have at least been bought by the library so money has been handed over. This way you may as well go into the comic store, slide a copy of the latest Angel into your jacket and walk out. Same thing.

Sorry Simon needed to be said....back on track now.

---------

One point that the reviewer made about characters returns.I dont think the return of characters was rushed at all in Angel. Each character has gotton a great (re)introduction, their place in the story made clear (and their relation to Angel's story made clear), and the plot has still moved forward at the same time. Look how much we have gotton in the issues so far in regards to plot. Questions answered and more questions raised. I think a lot will be addressed in First Night too.

And I like Brian's whole "1:Reunion,2:Rewind and 3:...) thing. What other 'Re's' can we think of. "Reclaiming" of LA maybe?

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2008-02-28 01:04 ]

angeliclestat | February 28, 04:01 CET

This reminds me of a Sinbad joke. He mentions the idea that Columbus discovered a continent when there were already millions of people living on it. Then he wonders aloud what would happen if the same logic was used for other things in life, including "I just discovered your car stereo." I think the punchline here would be "As a loyal fan, I consider it my duty to discover illegal copies of your intellectual property on the internet. I don't enjoy it, but it is a responsibility I take very seriously."

Sunfire | February 28, 04:48 CET

3: Revamp

What do I win?

OldMusic | February 29, 02:23 CET