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March 05 2008

(SPOILER) Joss Whedon speaks to The New York Times about Buffy #12. The new plotline is going to generate a huge amount of discussion in the fandom.

I can definately see how this fits in with Buffy needing to feel close to something but she did that with Spike!!! It seems to me that Joss is going around in circles. I love Satsu but it has already been established that Buffy is straight, although it says in the interview that she is experimenting. No big, I'm sure Joss will pull it off in the end.
*flaps excitedly*
I love it.
“It puts the reader in this ‘Oh my God’ moment,” Mr. Whedon said during a telephone interview."

ummm... that's exactly what i said...outloud...to myself.
it's like joss is reading my mind...that's kinda creepy and cool
I'm a little shocked and disappointed (and then shocked that I'm disappointed)...I suppose I should reserve judgement but it does sound a bit like a sweeps stunt they'd pull on "The OC" or something. Especially if its something that "just happened" and isn't going to be properly justified or explained.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say . . . I like it. And possibly a small OMG (although I picked up this possibility in B & S's last conversation, and I'm normally very obtuse. So often it's the times we say "I absolutely can't do this right now" or "this wouldn't be wise" that we then turn around and do just that thing . . . been there myself. Well, not with this exact thing, obviously.)

I think the way we're finding out - via a NYT piece that seems focused on this encounter, rather than on the story, or relationship, as a whole, - makes it seem more exploitative. I'm certain it will not be in the least. (And when I say "certain," of course I mean it's my opinion.) Can't wait to read the issue.
To be clear, I would like to first say that I am SO not trying to start anything all up in here.

Quoth bennyboi:
I love Satsu but it has already been established that Buffy is straight...

Reading that just caused me to have this thought: Can you certainly establish that someone is ever really and completely one hundred percent absolutely straight? I would argue... no. Nearly every person I know under the age of 30 (and many of those over 30, as well) has at least kissed a person of the same sex, experimentally, intentionally, emotionally, whatever.

I never once have heard it said by Buffy herself or any person with the authority to say so (i.e. Joss Whedon) that she is straight, only straight, no girls ever, it's not possible, thank you and the end. (And I say, go Buffster, go! Satsu is a catch, in my opinion.)

There is an exception to every rule, and I think that it's an interesting angle to explore. I also approve heartily of any version of the message that love is love is love, especially in a day and age when same-sex partners in the U.S. don't enjoy equal rights. Ahem.

I'll get down off these steps before I end up on a soapbox.

Now, if anyone wants to grinch on this one from a plot perspective, that's a horse of another color, as they say in other places. I reserve my opinion on the pairing until this thing plays out a while.
Heh.

Can you imagine when Angel or Spike finds out?

Or for that matter, when Xander finds out?

I can only imagine the multitude of Xena references when Andrew finds out. ;)

[ edited by NickSeng on 2008-03-05 09:26 ]
Are we still allowed to use the cookie metaphor? You know, that baking thing....

[ edited by Numfar PTB on 2008-03-05 10:57 ]
NO! Why did I click on the spoiler button! Why do I ALWAYS click on the spoiler buttons!

Anyway, this is an interesting development; potentially leading to some awkward situations with an already awkward situation with Willow.

Also, when will Xander get his gay on!
It's interesting to see that Dark Horse has gone down the same road as Marvel has i.e the writer will speak about the jaw dropping plot revelation to a New York paper on the day that the comic book comes out.

Also those fans who are trying to remain unspoiled cause they're waiting for the trade aren't going to escape this one.
Well, Dark Horse has pushed out a lot more copies for this one, I think. Unless I'm wrong. So they need to sell 'em. That's in response to Simon by the way, not a judgement on the storyline - because I haven't read it yet.
RIP Buffy Anne Summers

1997-2003
She didn't get Aids, ShadowQuest. Unless, THAT'S the happy surprise!
Interesting development. Not sure how I feel about it yet. Will have to read the issue.

Although I'm still hoping against hope for a Buffy and Spike reunion. **Waves Flag** :)

[ edited by TwisTz on 2008-03-05 11:17 ]
I love Joss' way of storytelling. He generally does things with his characters that most Hollywood types never try, and it makes for interesting watching (or reading). Shocking moments in a regular series make for fun times, but I'm kinda starting to feel with the Buffy and Angel comic lines both going now that they're trying to make a big shocking event in every issue just for the sake of being shocking.

I don't disapprove of Buffy and Satsu doing the deed as it was hinted at before that Buffy was kinda digging it, and it certainly isn't without precedent that she'll be caught up in the moment with someone she cares for enough (see Parker), but I think now it's time to just focus on what is best about Buffy and her Scoobies; the fact that they're a family. I'd love to see more of them just relaxing at the castle without any feuds or shock-of-the-week/month coming between them, watching them get back to the kick ass team they used to be when they fought together. There needs to be some more good old Xander and Willow moments for the comic to really be Buffy. I'd vastly prefer that over regular shocking events.
Why would Buffy Anne Summers rest in peace ? Because she has slept with a woman ?

Personally I think the whole Buffy-Satsu storyline has led to this, even more so after last issue's Buffy's acknowledgement of Satsu's feelings. Buffy is evidently disconnected from human beings right now, and severely needs to feel, anything, I guess. This is not about Buffy being gay, straight or bi, it's about Buffy looking for connection, a warm feeling, and finds it in Satsu. I believe it's a common experience, when you're down and lonely, you find your relief and gratification even in the oddest places. It's going to be a riveting emotional journey for the Buffster. Long live Buffy Anne Summers

1997- ?
1997 - always.
I just hope there is a good story around this event, cause as far as I am concerned if it looks like a stunt, smells like a stunt and sounds like a stunt it most likely is a stunt or whatever the comic book equivalent of a sweeps stunt is.

Buffy can sleep with whomever Joss decides as long as the story and characterization supports it, not sure about this one, eagerly awaiting to read the full story.

[ edited by jpr on 2008-03-05 11:39 ]
I tried so hard not to read spoliers about this issue and then caved at the last minute, and I have to say my first reaction was 'is that all?'. Even out of context like this, the scene doesn't immediately make me question Buffy's sexuality. I agree with Perseo, Buffy's so lonely and desperate to feel connected, and Satsu so clearly loves her, it makes sense that they might do this. Now I just want to read the full issue.
For me the show, and the characters depicted within, "died" in 2003.

I'm glad y'all are diggin' the continuation, but I, personally, do not like this "series." I read the first four and felt totally disconnected from the characters I'd grown to love.

I don't give a frip if Buffy "experiments" in the comics. For whatever reason, Joss feels this is the thing to do with his characters. And that's fine. It's his brain, he can write what he wants. Just 'cause I'm a fan of the show doesn't mean I have to like the comics, or even read them.

My opinion only. And I'm willing to bet I'm in the minority.
I just think we should let Joss say the story. And as far as stunts go, is "going lesbo" still a stunt these days ? With the comics audience ? Furthermore, is Joss a stunt guy ?

*images of Joss suspended in thin air on wires*

On these parameters, Buffy sleeping with Angel in Season Two, or even more, with Spike in Season Six were very exploitative stunts. And we know what kind of deep, fascinating, dark and meaningful stories came out of those "stunts".

Oh, and gossi, yes, 1997-always.
Still not weirder than Buffy the bankrobber, Dawn the giant, or Warren the wandering skinless pseudo-zombie.
Buffy the bankrobber, Dawn the giant, or Warren the wandering skinless pseudo-zombie have all very valid reason for being in terms of storytelling and plot development. Buffy the bankrobber is the perfect justification for Twilight's creed that the Slayers are building a "superior race" dictatorship of omnipotent women, Dawn the giant is a not-so-veiled metaphor for her belief she's too small for her sister's attention and care and Revived Warren propels Willow's guilt and fear of letting her loved one near Buffy. My point is, each story or plotline has a point. It's not there because Joss had nothing better to put in the comics. Which is the same I think about Butsu (did I just coin a new ship name ? Or Saffy, which is more appropriate given the context). It's not there to titillate, even if Dark Horse may be pleased by the effect on sales.
Oh, Joss Whedon - I love you.

Pretty much any and all of the negative reaction in this thread proves that these sort of stories need to be told.

Exploring sexuality or one-off same-sex encounters or Buffy finding out she's not a zero on the Kinsey scale - however you want to put it - is not a stunt.

We've seen a history of girl-on-girl kisses on television shows for the last twenty years, many of which have been a bid for ratings. Joss tells stories. Joss takes questions of sexuality seriously.

I can't wait to read this issue - to see how it all works out in context. But protests of "she was always straight" and the like pretty much prove there are close-minded people about sexuality everywhere - and maybe this story will open their minds a little.

It doesn't matter who you sleep with - but it does matter how you react afterward. This could be a great story.
I'm very much let down.

And once again we have Buffy sleeping with someone who loves her, just because she feels disconnected and alone. Go back to Season 6, replace Spike with Satsu and you'll have Season 8!

*yawn*
And once again Buffy behaves like a human being. Like we don't do the same mistakes over and over again. By the way, I'm reading elsewhere words like "fa***t" in relation to Buffy and "desperate for attention" in relation to Joss.. good times on the horizon:-)

Exactly why this kind of stories needs to be told.
Whoa, who said it should be a mistake to hook-up with someone of the same sex? Hello, I'm gay and that's not why I said that. I'm not mad, I just don't see why the development for Buffy is going back to this. Hence the *yawn*
This was over-hyped.
Buffy the bankrobber, Dawn the giant, or Warren the wandering skinless pseudo-zombie have all very valid reason for being in terms of storytelling and plot development.

Valid... not sure I agree, but I've argued those horses to death elsewhere so nevermind. And I did say this was *less* weird, so I'm not complaining.

Which is the same I think about Butsu (did I just coin a new ship name ?

Sorry, way ahead of you. :-)
I love it; I think it's a great idea.
Hopefully Willow finds out about their hook-up...that scene is sure to be priceless!!
So disappointed... I must completely agree with ShadowQuest.

Season 8 had some good moments, but all in all I’m not that happy with it. And this move only deepens my reservations towards it.

Even if I neglected my personal opinion that it’s totally out of character and took it as some kind of experiment due to Buffy’s feelings of loneliness and disconnection with other people, it still basically is just recycling of Season 6 and Buffy’s sexual relationship with Spike. :-(

[ edited by Anuris on 2008-03-05 13:26 ]
Even if I neglected my personal opinion that it’s totally out of charter and took it as some kind of experiment due to Buffy’s feelings of loneliness and disconnection with other people, it still basically is just recycling of Season 6 and Buffy’s sexual relationship with Spike. :-(


Well, only if she becomes physically, psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abusive toward Satsu... then it would be recycling.

[ edited by baxter on 2008-03-05 13:33 ]
I will wait to read the issue, before I jump on any train but I have to say, I agree with CowboyGuy knowing what I know right now. Why can't Buffy be the strong independent woman of years past? Why can't Buffy and the Scoobs come back together so Buffy HAS a connection to the World again? We HAVE been down this road and it was season 6. I guess after all the hype I feel a little let down. Oh, it's just Buffy having another sexual relationship with someone she doesn't love. IMO, it's sad when that becomes a theme with our hero. Maybe I am over reacting? I'll know here in a few hours.


[ edited by cheryl on 2008-03-05 13:37 ]

[ edited by cheryl on 2008-03-05 20:41 ]
cheryl and baxter, you're on the boundary of our no-agressive shipping policy. So consider this a first and final warning. If anyone wants to play silly buggers after this post, they're for the high jump.
As usual, I have a different take here. First, I read this in the NYT first, and I am astonished I got spoiled via a newspaper article. I simply thought this was about the presence of, say, a future character.

But to me, this is the final nail in the coffin indicating that Joss will not be bringing Tara back. It would be hard for me to explain the logic in my statement, believe me, but it's there.

This, however, smacks of a rating stunt to a degree, and ups the chance that Satsu will not be alive at the end of the season- and lord help me, Joss cannot be so arrogant as to kill off a second lesbian. So, Satsu either gets offed (and this time probably dying heroically, unlike Tara) or does not (meaning her relation with Buffy is basically a meaningless one). Not great options either way. Well, I thought the comic started with promise, but it has rapidly faded away for me.
Also, when will Xander get his gay on!

Yes! Preferably with Spike. :)
I am very interested (and I did wonder if this was coming since in the Big Talk, I noticed that Buffy never actually said she was straight, which for me, came way out of left field.)

This does raise a lot of interesting questions, especially Buffy's power and relationship with the other Slayers. It raises a lot about loyalty, desire and the possible manipulation of the same. Also, given the military tenor of the current Slayer group, the idea of a "front-line lover" is really fascinating--Satsu obviously has love and loyalty, my question is what's going to happen with this and its ramifications.

Of course, there's also the question of Buffy's reasons-I don't know if it will be as simple as loneliness or wanting connection or even more complex--we have the issue of Buffy having a lover who has a completely different level of understanding. Satsu is not a polar opposite like vampire Spike or Angel or a "normal" guy like Parker or Riley, but instead has the same experience of slaying, the change and responsibility. I have no idea how this will play out, but it's very interesting.

Also, there's an unusual mirroring of the Watcher/Slayer dynamic too, which may bear some looking into. Obviously, Watchers don't have sex with their Slayers, but Buffy has now crossed another line and I guess we'll see what comes of it.

I wonder if Season 8 really is becoming a meditation on power, military and otherwise as well as looking at what happens when it is in flux. I guess we'll find out.
Dana...why do you think that this means Tara won't be back?
I'm getting tired of the "set up" for things to be awkward, angsty, etc. We've been down this road of "I'm a lonely adult now and I don't want to be". Buffy is the most alone now than ever.
It's been a year and there has not yet been a great Scooby moment in this series. A YEAR. I guess I was hoping the surprise thing would be a cool one.
If he can't kill off a lesbian character same as any other, that's an excellent incentive to not have any lesbian characters. And maybe even the only truly valid reason.
Buffy sleeping with someone for a connection is what she did with Parker and with Spike. It's pretty much what Faith did all the time. Except in a mostly more aggressive manner. Buffy's friendships and Mother used to ground her so that she didn't have to be as needy in the connection department as Faith but that's not the way it is now and it's often that way once we leave high school and childhood behind. Nothing's the same and we feel it and it doesn't feel right. Until it does we search.

I think Buffy hasn't felt normal since she was called and she felt that it was because no one was like her...ie a slayer and a girl. She had a strong bond with Angel and Faith because they kind of knew what it was like to have super powers and not be able to lead a normal life. She was with Parker and Riley because she felt they were normal and that is what she thought she longed for. She was with Spike because he was dead and that is what she thought she longed for.

Satsu says she loves Buffy. Here's this women who is a lot like Buffy and loves Buffy. I think that would appeal to Buffy since Buffy doesn't love Buffy. Which is what I think she needs to do to be happy finally. So perhaps this is a step in the right direction. Although no one should need to have sex to validate themselves. But searching sex isn't a bad thing as long as you are as honest as possible with yourself and your partner/s.

[ edited by beckyboo on 2008-03-05 14:29 ]
So, if a thing actually starts between Buffy and Satsu, at least we know that Joss would have a non-Scooby place to go with the betrayal angle.
When I first read your post, Beckyboo, I thought that last bit said "Parents". LOL.

I think you're right, Buffy doens't love Buffy. I hope she figures it out pretty soon. There are 1001 reasons to love Buffy the vampire slayer. She is again, selling herself short.
OK, I was wrong. Except about the gay thing. If Batsu today, might tomorrow not bring twue Wuffy?

I must report that People Interested in a Gayer Slayer (PIGS) is finished and announce the formation of People Increasingly Intrigued by a Gayer Slayer (PIGSquared).
I should point out that we will be having our usual discussion thread about the issue later on today. So if you do want to chat about the rest of the issue, do pop along.
If he can't kill off a lesbian character same as any other, that's an excellent incentive to not have any lesbian characters.

Or to make everyone a lesbian and then kill them all ;-).

It feels a bit like a step backwards to go forwards from a character perspective though i'd guess that's the point (i.e. that Buffy's big "liberation" at the end of 'Chosen' was actually nothing of the kind, that there are no easy fixes and that change happens slowly, if at all).

The good thing if you like Satsu is, she's probably pretty safe because the only way you could really interpret Joss killing her is as a deliberate piss-take of the people that got so worked up over Tara and I doubt he'd do that, no matter what the wee devil on his shoulder might be whispering ;).

(or maybe he could kill say 10 heterosexual Slayers first to balance the books ;-)

Kind of funny to me that there now seems to be pressure to NOT have a concrete sexual identity, as if knowing what gender turns you on makes you some kind of dinosaur but i'm glad that the pendulum is swinging towards a sort of super tolerance, when it all settles out we'll be happier bunnies ;).

OT but talking of stunts/naturalness, it can crop up in the strangest places. Anyone watched the updated 'Knightrider' TV movie ? Sydney Tamiia Poitier played an FBI agent and when we first meet her she's getting ready for work after a one-night stand, it's not highlighted, commented on or exploited in any way (you don't see any "lesbo action" for instance) but her one night stand happened to be with an attractive woman. Nicely done (the rest of the film, sadly, not so much ;).
Buffy: The Torchwood Years.
Buffy: the Vastly Inferior Show Years.

There, cleaned that up for you Caroline :)
I don't know what I think about this...

But I'll tell you one thing, if S8 is having a ‘gay experience’ then I must demand ATF has one too! Okay, maybe there will be some begging involved *offers bribe*. Preferably with Spike and Angel alone in a room... with a bed or not, you know those vampires aren’t really very picky.

“It’s just something that happens.”

I'll be waiting for my ANGEL issue now please ;)
I agree with JessicaMelusine--this seems completely different from Buffy/Spike to me, and potentially interesting. Hard to say where it's going at this point, but there are a lot of possibilities that don't have to take us anywhere we've been before. Or maybe Buffy will just learn to loosen up a little.
Sorry, just not buying it. This is a stunt, this is only a stunt, and it continues my disaffection for the comics. (So ShadowQuest, you're not alone.) And for those people saying that it's all about the connection, may I point out--there is more than one way to connect with people. Unless at some point, each of the Core Four really did--but let's not go there, because Giles/Xander might shatter my poor tired brain.

I admit, though, this does answer one of my lingering questions about the Angel episode "Orpheus," which I mostly really liked. But the moment at the end where Fred tried to hit on Willow and got the brushoff rang truly false. Fred had never displayed any same-sex tendencies before, and never would again. It jarred me out of the episode just long enough to ask, "Who came up with THAT?!" Hmm...now I have an idea...

Come to think of it, this has happened with several characters in the past. Xander ("First Date"), Fred, now Buffy...what's the hidden message here? That people who have had rotten experiences in their love lives turn to their own side of the aisle and think, "Well, now, maybe I've been going about this all wrong"?

(To help anyone out who's thinking about responding: No, I'm not gay. No, I don't care whether anyone is. Yes, I know they're his characters. No, I don't think Giles/Xander would be a good idea.)
I don't know if I should fear this or love this.
Saje:
Or to make everyone a lesbian and then kill them all ;-).

Oooo, there's an idea! (Maybe not a good one, but still... :-D )

The good thing if you like Satsu is, she's probably pretty safe

So far, I do - she's begun showing a dry, sarcastic humor that appeals to me - but if she dies, I'm not gonna be wearing of the sackcloth and ashes...
I read some spec elsewhere suggesting that we saw Satsu in Chosen.
But the moment at the end where Fred tried to hit on Willow and got the brushoff rang truly false.

Never saw it like that myself, Fred was just being friendly thinking she'd found a fellow geek-gal/science nerd to talk shop with, Willow was the one that interpreted it as chatting her up (when she tells Fred she's with someone Fred just looks puzzled - like "What's that got to do with anything ?" possibly followed by embarrassed, not disappointed IMO). The idea of it (to me) was to show in a funny way that Willow was still a bit hypersensitive about her own sexuality (and/or to hint that she fancied Fred a wee bit).

I sort of wonder about stunt-ness myself though BAFfler, especially given that we're being told upfront that it doesn't mean Buffy's gay. Maybe Joss literally just reached for a handy character for Buffy to regret having impulsive sex with and she happened to be a woman, in some ways it's a more natural fit than shoehorning a male character in there but on the other hand, how much bigger a mistake/weirder a turn of events would it be if she'd slept with Xander ? That'd really throw the proverbial cat in there.
I love it and I think Buffy experimenting is a more realistic approach to sexuality than Willow's "gay now" assertions always were, which frankly, always irritated me.

So of course, my question is....when are the guys gonna get it on?

*still waiting in vain all these years*

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-03-05 15:45 ]
Fred was just being friendly thinking she'd found a fellow geek-gal/science nerd to talk shop with, Willow was the one that interpreted it as chatting her up (when she tells Fred she's with someone Fred just looks puzzled - like "What's that got to do with anything ?" possibly followed by embarrassed, not disappointed IMO).


That's how I always read that scene, too.
*pets menomegirl* You're not alone there.

Oh, God. I don't know where this thought came from (probably has something to do with reading Saje's post ;) but I just had a snap picture of Buffy and Andrew together...

And now I need to wash my brain with soap... no, no, bleach...
This is a pretty morally dubious thing for Buffy, IMO. And it has nothing to do with Satsu being a girl. First of all, Buffy looks, at least out of context, pretty unhappy. Second of all, we already know from the series and Joss' interview that while Satsu is in love with Buffy, Buffy is experimenting with Satsu.

So we have Satsu who is under Buffy's instruction, Buffy's command, and Buffy's roof (remember her honestly being afraid Buffy was going to kick her out?), and in love with her -- this is as unequal and exploitative a relationship on its face as we've ever seen in the Buffyverse. If this was Xander and Renee in the same context, he'd be demonized -- it would arguably be abusive.

I certainly hope that there aren't people ready to defend *any* homosexual tending storyline for *any* character in *any* context.
Saje, I don't think for a minute this is a handy character situation. Right from the beginning of this season Satsu's been there - it's a planned arc if ever I saw one. The Xander dropping hints to Buffy and Buffy dreamage has also gotta be a plot point.

[ edited by gossi on 2008-03-05 15:58 ]
I wondered about this development, especially since and entire issue was focused (mainly) on the two gals discussing feelings. And, frankly, I'm happy with whatever Joss decides to do.

Doesn't mean I don't want to kick him when he kills characters...but, the kicks are only metaphorical and I always get *why* he does something (even if it breaks my heart). *grin*

Life meanders and throws us loopholes, why shouldn't the series? That's what it has always been about!
Saje, I don't think for a minute this is a handy character situation.

Which makes it seem more like a stunt gossi. If it's been planned from the start, why have Buffy indulge in a sort of relationship she's never previously shown much interest in except to make a point about how OK it is ? If it's been planned all along, Joss could have brought a male character in from the start.

Don't get me wrong, it really is OK to indulge in that way if you both fancy it but that doesn't mean it feels natural from a story-telling or character point of view. And as Joss has always said, there will never be "A Very Special" Buffy episode. So what's this then if not a story designed to make a socially progressive point and what's "A Very Special ..." if not exactly that ?

... this is as unequal and exploitative a relationship on its face as we've ever seen in the Buffyverse.

Yep, that's actually a great point KingofCretins "Don't screw the crew" as an old boss of mine used to (colourfully) put it. Given Buffy's position of authority (especially the quasi-military nature of that authority), it's hard not to see it as an abuse of that, hopefully that aspect will be addressed.

(if it is looked at then that's one genuine reason not to use Xander. Though technically Buffy's subordinate, he's known her so long that I doubt Buffy could really tell him to do anything based purely on her position)
and in love with her -- this is as unequal and exploitative a relationship on its face as we've ever seen in the Buffyverse.


KingofCretins-Are you forgetting about Riley being a TA and that he really shouldn't have been dating Buffy because of that? How about Buffy using Spike in season 6, when she knew he was in love with her?

Mirage-Buffy and Andrew? Oh crud, now I need brain bleach, too.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-03-05 16:21 ]
My own 'shipping preference aside, they've done enough to establish that Xander is basically equal to Buffy in authority in the BHC that, between them, authority wouldn't be an issue anyway, and probably wouldn't even look bad to the others there -- they would just be Queen and King (or Queen's Consort) of the Slayers.

But Buffy/Satsu has those problems. Xander/Renee has those problems. Not just between them, but also in what is perceived by the others. "So dat's vhy Satsu got picked for the rescue mission", says Rowena. "Oh, it's okay that Renee walked off post, but *I* get KP for a week", says Random Slayer.

And I did have a problem with Riley being a TA, actually. There's no university in the US where that's kosher, not for a student in *his class*. I overlook it mostly because they didn't become a romance until near the end of the semester anyway.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-03-05 16:21 ]
"Buffy: The Torchwood Years."

A brilliant and succinct summation of my reaction to this.
So don't want to read that...
Well of course it may all read entirely differently with the issue actually in hand, but based solely on what I've heard so far I'm very disappointed. But once again BAFfler (and in his case KingofCretins) has said pretty much what I'm thinking... so as you were.
Huh. I wondered when she said "you smell nice." That's not a very "I'm not attracted to you" thing to say. This is gutsy.

1997 - always.

Word.
Simon, didn't Satsu (retroactively) appear in Chosen, as suggested on page 2 of #11, as the girl in front of the lockers?

Satsu either gets offed (and this time probably dying heroically, unlike Tara) or does not (meaning her relation with Buffy is basically a meaningless one).


So every relationship that doesn't last forever/till blissful old age or that doesn't end in heroic death is a meaningless one? I'd have to say, just from my own experience in the real world, that this statement isn't accurate at all.

In general, I think we (we the audience) have a tendency to oversimplify, to force new experiences to fit into what has already gone before - so here, if Buffy is reaching out for love/support from an unexpected place, it *must* be a repeat of S6 and Spike, the utterly different context and characters and the passage of time notwithstanding. But, y'know, two rivers twice and all that. Even if Buffy is acting from similar reasons, the results will be entirely different because of all the other new variables.

Saje: gotta disagree. Buffy's been surrounded by only women (plus Giles plus Xander) for a long time now. And, let's face it, she has always been, um, open-minded when it comes to partners. I see no reason at all why this wouldn't be a "natural" development. Without having actually seen the issue, I don't see any progressive point being made (except, I suppose, that the fact that same-sex actually happens is itself a progressive point for many people still.)

I think KingofCretins' concerns about the power disparity/potential for abuse (oops, punning) are well-founded, and I think that's something that will be developed.
I hope I'm wrong, but I just have a disappointing sense of, 'Been There, Done That'.
Is this a stunt? If so, this is a stunt a lot of people stumble into everyday, with no intention of getting publicity for it. It's a part of many real-life stories that doesn't get told much. This:

“It puts the reader in this ‘Oh my God’ moment,” Mr. Whedon said during a telephone interview. “And it puts Buffy in an ‘Oh my God, what did I just do?’ moment.”

explains it to me. Like everything in Buffy, it's meant to put Buffy in a certain emotional moment, and it's told in such a way to put us right there with her. Assuming it's a stunt, or the writers ran out of ideas, says more to me about people's views of sex than it does the writers' abilities or intentions here. Especially considering many of us don't even have a copy of this yet.

Oh, and this is the day when I say GODDARD!!!!

That is all. Until I get a copy of this.
I'm willing to see where it goes.
Has anyone got the issue yet?
I wondered when she said "you smell nice." That's not a very "I'm not attracted to you" thing to say.

I said that to somebody once. It meant "I'm attracted to you".

Also sniffed a friends' hair once. Don't do that - it's not smart.
I don't really want to comment without having read the whole issue but I'm not sure I want this major events happening on the comics. However I think it could be a great story specially if it doesn't focus on the "i'm so alone and disconnected issue" and more on some other thing. Buffy needs to evolve as a character.
Couple things.

1) The issue only comes out today. What could anyone's opinion of its contents possibly matter before they've read it?

2) The issue only comes out today. No one's opinion of a couple-paragraph description of a single storyline is worth a damn. I rather wish I hadn't clicked the NYTimes link - but then why would people race here to talk about what they don't yet know? I'm excited to see where the story is going; beyond that, if you've already made up your mind how you feel about the idea of Buffy sleeping with another woman (how old is Satsu anyhow?), you're not responding to the story Joss is telling, only to a notion, an idea.

Ideas are cheap - hell, you can't even copyright them.

I'm loving the comics and look forward to reading Goddard's new issue in a few hours. And hey: what a year that kid's having, huh? Cloverfield, Lost (ugh), a comic under the editorship of his old mentor, a script with Joss in the works: how great is it to be fans of the Jossverse at a moment when so many of his co-conspirators and students (see BKV) are busting out all over?!
Can we be careful about somehow deducing people's ideas about sexuality because it doesn't feel like a natural development to them ? Ta ;).

(we don't assume Bangel 'shippers think Englishness is unnatural or decide Spuffys have something against foreheads ;-)

Would Xander not put the reader (and certainly Buffy) in an "Oh my God" moment, as well as being consistent with all of Buffy's previous sexual relationships ?

Buffy's been surrounded by only women (plus Giles plus Xander) for a long time now.

True SNT, my point being that's a choice that Joss made. Gossi is implying that this has been in the offing for nearly a year, isn't that long enough to introduce a male partner for her to have awkward sex with ? Far as I remember her "open-minded" choices have always been male and she actually reacted in a somewhat less than enlightened manner when Willow first came out. So why is it natural for her to try sex within gender ? Because people on here have had similar experiences ?

And come on, let's not kid ourselves, either Joss is brave and "this is gutsy" because it's unusual/progressive OR it's just something that pretty much everyone thinks is fine and no big deal and so all the other issues also got Joss interviewed by 'The New York Times' (which I don't recall ;).
I try to imagine what I'd think if I didn't first read 50 people's opinion about it. If someone shoved a comic in my hand out of the blue and said 'look, that Buffy person you like so much is having it off with a another girl', I'd probably shrug. Neither yeh! nor meh!

When I started watching BtVS I thought was a little old fashioned, almost in a Happy Days way. The way people dressed and behaved and seemed a little on the conservative side. Didn't use mobiles. Funny way of looking at computers, the net, etc. A bit behind times. The obsession with dating, too, highschool sweethearts, etc. Not anything like my European '97-'03. It was actually part of its charm.

So experimenting? Welcome to the 21st century, Buffster, it's when it all changes. Separate from the Government, outside the Police, beyond the United Nations... um... yeah.

I just hope we're not going to have more shipper wars and other true wuv bullshit.
Caroline; I think I like you.
So experimenting? Welcome to the 21st century, Buffster, it's when it all changes. Separate from the Government, outside the Police, beyond the United Nations... um... yeah.

This is brilliant.

isn't that long enough to introduce a male partner for her to have awkward sex with ?

I don't see why it has to be a male partner. Also, story wise, I think if you're going for awkward sex, every single factor which makes it more awkward is better. Girl in love with Buffy, Buffy not gettin' the girl (except figuratively) - it's all there.

I do think it raises some questions about Buffy being a bit of an idiot on occasion, but you know - that's what Drew's there to explore.

Edit: not an idiot for Big Gay Sex. An idiot for the situation.

[ edited by gossi on 2008-03-05 17:11 ]
It doesn't have to be a male partner but that feels more consistent with what we know about Buffy to me. Though in fairness, it's maybe too similar to previous relationships and that might be the best reason for choosing Satsu.

Gotta say though, for me Xander would be more awkward and most awkward would probably be Giles (anybody disagree ?) so if that's the aim, why not those two ?

And on one hand it's not a big deal, it's a natural exploration etc. on the other it's "more awkward" because Satsu's female. Sounds inconsistent to me, clearly though we have some (widely) varying mileage ;).

Still, makes sense to wait and see how it's actually done (my money is on "brilliantly" but I will give odds if anyone's interested ;).

ETA: And 82 comments on a comic no-one's read yet is kind of hilarious if you think about it. What would happen if Joss posted ? D'ya think we might clock the commentometer ? ;-)

[ edited by Saje on 2008-03-05 17:22 ]
Saje: always been male, yep, but also demons, some of them. And she was resolute in her defense of Willow/Oz against the Initiative. I wouldn't characterize her surprise at Willow and Tara's relationship as less than enlightened, either. Her shock, seems to me, was more "I thought you were pining after Oz," than about Willow being with a woman. Notably she was very quick to adapt and support, and nary a word she utters implied that she thought the gayness of their relationship was a prob. Obviously that's my take.

And, yeah, that's a lot of hot air we're all expelling. ;-)

And now work. And then comic-book, fingers-crossed. :-)
Can we be careful about somehow deducing people's ideas about sexuality because it doesn't feel like a natural development to them ? Ta ;).

I didn't mean people were homophobic. Just that people are treating what could be, for all we know, a single sexual encounter as if it has the same plot significance as say, the Big Bad. And making claims about it being a stunt or the only idea left implies to me that people react more strongly to sexual choices than anything else a character decides to do. The bank-robbing got a reaction, but not like this. Being an atypical choice for this character seems to be the point. Xander sleeping with Faith was always odd to me, as was Buffy sleeping with Parker. But I understood why they did it. And they aren't the kind of events that shifted the series one bit.

And come on, let's not kid ourselves, either Joss is brave and "this is gutsy" because it's unusual/progressive OR it's just something that pretty much everyone thinks is fine and no big deal and so all the other issues also got Joss interviewed by 'The New York Times' (which I don't recall ;).

There's the story he and Drew chose to tell, and then there's the marketing angle. I don't think they're the same thing. I think it's gutsy because it flies in the face of the "straight character/gay character" categories that are still predominant in mainstream media, especially in the U.S. Willow realized she belonged in a different category and became a gay character-- that was gutsy then. A "straight" character who is iconic in pop culture who has a same-sex experience causes well, the kinds of reactions we're seeing here. It challenges people's idea of who Buffy is. It's very risky.
This was an interesting quote from the NYT article: "Numerous fans appreciated Willow’s revelation. “When it became clear how much this meant to people, we knew we could not take it back,” Mr. Whedon said. “O.K., this was a life change.” " You know, this is not exactly true. Both Joss and Marti Noxon have spoken of the conversations they had after Tara's death about whether or not Willow would remain gay; they considered having her return to men, but ultimately did not. That she remained gay is indisputable; that it was a given she would most certainly is not. They really did consider "taking it back."

Cheryl: you asked me why. I can only try to explain what came to me as a conclusion after reading about this. First, it obviously puts the "gay thing" at the forefront of the story; witness here how many posts are already present for a story that has only been up a few hours, for acomic we have yet to read, and I am sure that we will hit at least 100 posts shortly. So this is guaranteed to bring this issue to the fore again; and in doing so, it has to- HAS TO- raise the issue of Willow and Tara- which as you see in the original article it already did. By raising the issue of Tara, it also dismisses it, because the storyline is- yes, Willow's gay lover was killed, but hey, here is another gay character, and not only that she is involved with our main star. What happened to Tara is thereby diminished; obviously, Joss did not kill Tara because she was gay (something I have never felt was true personally, though others have), because he is now bringing us a new gay character and one who slept with Buffy, of all people. I see this as taking Tara off the table; the focus has shifted. And as saje said, I could see Joss killing Satsu as well, just to get in the face of the people who were upset at what happened to Tara. I could see it, though I don't think Joss is, as I said above, arrogant enough to do it again. What is possible to me is either that Satsu betrays Buffy (the evil lesbian) or is killed in some noble and heroic fashion (the dead lesbian), protecting Buffy (who will have given her up according to what we read in the NYT), and thus making the death mean something (for the characters, not the story), as opposed to Tara's, which was a plot point. So to me, this is the first real acknowledgement that Tara will never be in play in the story. Hell, for all that, Willow is barely at play in the story, and Kennedy is nonexistant.

But this is less important than it seems, overall. The NYT implies that it is a short-time thing, that Buffy isnot gay, and in the end, it is just story filler. It is not expecially brave either, since we have been there, done that. Bring Andrew out of the closet would be braver; add a gay male character braver yet. What is the point of this, really?
I haven't read it yet, but I agree with whoever said that Buffy wanting love from a Slayer is something she wants because Buffy doesn't love herself. Makes sense.

Buffy reacting to Willow coming out -- well, people on this board -- including some gay/lesbian people -- are going, "Buffy's doing *what*?" because that wasn't in their previous world view of her.

This isn't out of the blue -- the whole sleeping beauty/true love's kiss in the first S8 arc had the revelation that Satsu truly loved Buffy. It would be *really* bizarre if that never had paid off in some further way.

There are people who "come out" in their *sixties* after marriage and multiple children. There are uncounted more who experiment without deciding that's their preference. Make the divide human/vampire instead of male/female, and it looks as though Buffy experimented with dating humans, and her first dates were all with humans, because that's what was safe and socially acceptable, and then found her true preference was vampires (and Buffy might not even see it that way, it just looks that way to me).

What I really am curious to see is Willow's reaction -- my guess is she'll be even more thrown for a loop than Buffy was way back in "New Moon Rising," not because the idea of women having sex with women bothers Willow, but simply because, again, this doesn't fit with her world view of *Buffy*. All of the characters on "Buffy" are fairly fluid people, and most of them react with surprise (at minimum) when their friends don't behave as expected. In this, they are very human -- we grant fluidity to ourselves but expect predictability of others.

I'm with whoever said it would be pretty hard to shoehorn a male in there from the start just to make sure Buffy had a male love interest. (Also, I think it would be really hard not to have seen that coming if there had been a strange new guy there.) If they are indeed going for the psychological angle of Buffy needing love from a fellow Slayer, then the love interest couldn't be male (or a vamp) in any event.

And count me among those who thought Fred was just going for friendship with Willow, not realizing it could be taken as a come-on.

I'm just glad they're finally paying off that first-arc kiss.
I have the issue... won't get into spoilage, but I will say a lot of our worst-worst concerns about where Buffy is at emotionally aren't well-founded based on 8.12.

Time to fire up that discussion thread, boss :)
And on that cue.

So if people want to chat about all of the issue, there's now a new blog entry for people to do just that.
"Risky"...of course, it's Joss! This is why I love the man's work so much! The number of responses here (not to mention the different opinions) once again attests to his brilliance...not to mention the relevancy of the Buffyverse!
Damnation, it'll be tomorrow at the very earliest before I get a look. Poo ;).

People calling it a stunt is, to me, more about what we know about Buffy and how out of character it is, combined with the fact that, like it or not, same sex relationships are still rare in mainstream media and so (as we're seeing) are going to garner attention, Joss isn't stupid, he knows that. That said, Joss (from what I know of him) isn't dishonest or disrespectful to his audience either so for now i'm happy to assume it's not a stunt.

I'll also concede that if you've known a lot of women who've always had straight relationships that then suddenly have (AFAWK one-off) gay sex then it'd be less of a surprise, you might think "Oh, that's just like my mate Kate" rather than "Huh, Buffy's never seemed to want that before ?" (i.e. if you have a lot of experiences with out of character behaviour then it sort of ceases to be out of character as far as you're concerned) so it may well be a symptom of small 'c' conservatism on my part.

And as saje said, I could see Joss killing Satsu as well...

I hate to say this Dana5140 cos it seems i've done nothing but disagree with you recently ;) but that's actually not what I said, pretty much the opposite in fact (I can't see Joss doing it because that's about the only reason he'd do it for, tempted though he might be for contrariness sake - read, tempted as I would be ;).
"But this is less important than it seems, overall. The NYT implies that it is a short-time thing, that Buffy isnot gay, and in the end, it is just story filler."

Not sure what the word filler means in that context, but it is -- like every Buffy tale -- just a story in the end.
I think Buffy is lonely and just wanted to fool around a little.
I have to admit that I'm amused that some people seem to be using the "It's out of character!" and "It's exactly like season 6!" arguments in the same post.

Looking at all of the guys Buffy's been with, hasn't she always been about experimentation, if not necessarily in terms of sexuality? Baring the fact that two of them were vampires, all of the guys and the relationships have been markedly different. A type of partner/relationship doesn't work for her, she moves on to something new. This time, "new" just happens to translate to female. Someone who, on the very surface, is just like her. But as others have pointed out, the imbalance of power in this relationship is extremely unhealthy. There's bound to be some gloriously sticky fallout. That sounds far dirtier than I meant it.

And of course, Buffy knows Satsu loves her. That's the one thing she's fairly consistent about.

The 21st century is when it all changes. And Buffy is ready.

[ edited by Lady Brick on 2008-03-05 18:23 ]
Hi, saje- not to worry. I am way under the weather today, and misread what you said. Got that cold making its way through the midwest US. So take the comment for what it is, without you actually agreeing with it or saying it. :-)

What I meant by filler is that if this decision does not later play into the story, it was really much ado about nothing. Right now, it is filler, just something that happened; that may or may not change as the story develops. (And yes, I anticipate some of you are thinking, but it's Joss, so it will have something to do later. Maybe yes, maybe no).

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-03-05 18:54 ]
Sounds like an excuse for a hot toddy if ever I heard one ;).
When are TPTB going to realize that Since the beginning of the show, it was Buffy and Xander that belonged together. Those two should, and will always be together in one way or another. Maybe it's just season one nostalgia, but that's what I feel.
As a lesbian myself I was like, "Whaaat?" But...the bottom line is: I trust Joss. I can't wait to see where this goes.
This is ridiculous. I am coming down on the side of the badness of this. It seems like every one of Whedon's shows has some total blatant girl on girl action. Now I'm a feminist, and also love the fluid sexuality on Torchwood-- but that's just it, it has to go both ways. And after Willow and Tara ("my eggs look like boobs!") and Willow and Kennedy, and then even Inara getting in on the girl on girl in Firefly, it's just starting to get a little creepy is all I'm saying.

But I stopped reading the Buffy comics awhile ago anyway. It just doesn't feel true at all to Buffy's character to go this route and I feel like it's just an attention grabber, just like the new and improved bustier comic book slayers. "Hey, men, look in this comic! Slayer lesbians!!! With big, big boobies and teeny little waists!" Hardly new ground being covered in comics. It's starting to feel a little less like exposure and empowerment, and a little more like exploitation. And nothing like the kick ass show that I felt empowered by when I was a preteen girl.

[ edited by ailiel on 2008-03-05 18:58 ]
saje- yes, indeed. If were smart, I'd have brought some Macallen 18yo with me to work, to put in my tea. Or just to put in me!

I do wonder why we do not see Kennedy, though. And I can think of one final irony- Satsu does not betray Buffy, does not end up dead, but ends up in a relation with Willow. Think about that one, bingo!
When are TPTB going to realize that Since the beginning of the show, it was Buffy and Xander that belonged together. Those two should, and will always be together in one way or another. Maybe it's just season one nostalgia, but that's what I feel.


SpikeBad - please be careful about (semi-?)shipping talk.
Not reading through the thread right now, but only saying... I can't believe my MOTHER spoiled this for me! I've gotten her to watch Buffy (she's in season 2 now, hasn't reached "Innocence" yet), and the minute she saw a mention of Angel in the article, she stopped reading... but sent it to me! Ah, well... she probably didn't even know I'm buying the comics...
I can't believe my MOTHER spoiled this for me!


Quote of the day :).
I think of the scoobs as family now. They used to be friends but it's not how the series has made them. It's why Xander/Buffy and Willow/Buffy seems weird to even read about now. I know Xander makes little sex jokes but I don't know...

I can't wait till I get my copy of this 'episode'.
It's totally hot, and so totally necessary; i mean, Buffy has been flirting with this stuff since Faith, has she not?
I can't believe no one else has said this yet, so I'll say it:

I'll be in my bunk.
ewiggy......"Buffy has been flirting with this stuff since Faith..." Love it!

Jay Tea.....I was wondering when that would come into play.

ailiel.....I still feel empowered by the comics. Like I said before, I trust Joss. He is not doing this as a 'flavor of the week'...there is a point to it. People experiment. Why should Buffy be any different?
Jay Tea, you beat me too it. I was at work all day.

I have to say that I was caught completely off guard by this, it does seem a bit sudden and out of the blue. I agree that Buffy is opened minded but this does seem out of character. Maybe it wouldn't seem so strange if there had been a bit more build up since the love revelation last issue. I certainly don't think this is a "flavor of the week" or "very special issue" moment, as there has been some emphasis on Buffy's loneliness and isolation. Still, I see this as out of character.

That being said, I agree with the "trust Joss" statements. There have always been ideas in his projects that seem a bit off but have worked out. If someone had said in Season 2 that we'd see a Spike/Buffy relationship or Angel/Cordelia I would have raised more than an eye brow. Character evolution has always been one of the best parts of Joss's projects. If 3 great tv shows, 1 wonderful movie and whole mess of astonishing comics have taught me anything, its that Joss should be trusted.

Going to run out and buy this immediately after work, can't wait!!!!
But you know what, windmillchaser? This is indeed a "very special issue" moment, since buyers were told to order many extra copies of the issue. That gives lie to the idea that this is just another issue.
I completely agree with the idea that Buffy has been flirting with this since Faith, and I can't believe no one mentioned that idea until after 100 posts! (I half expected there to be some kind of Buffy/Faith thing in season seven.)
I avoided this thread until AFTER reading the issue.... And then I spent a full hour reading everyone's comments above. And the one I need to respond to is:

Saje said: "(we don't assume Bangel 'shippers think Englishness is unnatural or decide Spuffys have something against foreheads ;-)"
Because I never liked the forehead, it was an insurmountable barrier to 'Bangel' (but I'm warming up to Dexter's).

Okay, now I gotta go read the REAL discussion thread.
This doesn't seem like a logical step for Buffy. I could never imagine Buffy experimenting like this. Unless a bunch of stuff happened between Season 7 and Season 8, I just can't see why she would feel the need to experiment. She was in college. Why didn't she experiment then.
It just doesn't ring true to her character.
I certainly am a person who's down with the gayness. But I still don't really like this much. I have to agree that it kind of seems stunt-y. Maybe if it had happened /without/ all the hoopla of "hey, shopowners, you'd better order lots of copies of this!" it wouldn't seem like as much of one.

I'm just having trouble reconciling this with TV Buffy, who never showed any indication of such inclinations. I know she did the same thing with Spike, but there was more of a build-up to that to show the darkness of her mental state.

That said, I /did/ like how everyone immediately found out about it, and it wasn't some long-held angsty secret or something.
Having read the issue twice now--and having purposely avoided this thread before I did--I can say that I dig Buffy/Satsu, at least what it currently is.

Upon first sight, yes, my reaction was, "What the hell?" But then I kept reading, and it made more sense. In fact, the brief Joss interview with the Times actually makes me feel better about where this is going, and that he knows exactly what he's doing with it.

This doesn't reek of exploitation or an out-of-character moment to me. There's a difference between the marketing and the work, we must remember. It wasn't Joss or Drew who called up all the shops going, "Dude, order more!"

Buffy is lonely, and she hates herself. She reached out to someone who, as others have said, is to some extent a mirror of herself, and who loves her. This isn't like reaching out to Spike because she wanted to die and to feel death, and therefore physically and mentally abusing him. Satsu is an entirely different character (and would be my favorite new Slayer were it not for Renee, who's just adorable), and someone who actually seems to be at peace with most of who she is. She seems nice and fun, two things that Spike wasn't. Or, well, at least not like that.

No, Buffy's not in love with Satsu. No, I don't believe that Buffy's going to turn out to be a lesbian in the end (then again, I repeatedly stated that I thought there would be no Buffy/Satsu hook-up at all). Yes, I believe there will be general/soldier ramifications. But, emotionally, to me, it makes sense.

Do I expect there to be difficult issues from this? Or, to phrase it differently: Was this written by Joss Whedon?

As for those who have been saying that there haven't been any great Scooby moments, well...they're right. And looking at the story so far, I honestly believe Joss is trying to push everyone even further away. It's not like S6, either; for the love of God, they have every reason to be happy and functional now. But they can't be. They just...can't.

Would I love some S1/S2 closeness and laughter? Of course. I love these guys, and I want them to be happy, and with each other if at all possible. But I also think that Joss knows what he's doing.

And dear Lord, I hope I don't always come across as someone who justifies Joss' storytelling decisions blindly. 'Cuz I always defend him, just...it works for me, and that's all I know.

[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2008-03-06 00:52 ]
Things like these happen often in the real world. I'm shocked because I honestly thought it would not happen. I am certainly looking forward to reading the issue. I don't think of this as a publicity stunt.
A lot of people seem to be complaining because we've seen this before with Spike... So, does that mean that people usually have comfort sex with only one person? People who experiment that way usually sleep with a lot more people than Buffy has so far. It doesn't feel repetitive to me.
Now excuse me, I need to go purchase the issue :-)
"Sometimes I think about two women doing a spell... and then I do a little spell on my own."

Oh, Buffy. You do like to make things complicated emotionally for yourself, doncha? Well, at least she's hot while doing it.

I hope Satsu likes cookie dough. ;)
Heh. I bet Buffy doesn't think that little 'oops' in her "Chosen" metaphor is so funny now, does she?
Very interesting development, but ultimately not as important as the realization that this is yet another of Joss' attempt to make Buffy more accessible to the audience as a character. If Buffy were "perfect"--never showing any uncertainty, loneliness, self-doubt, inconsistency, etc.--she wouldn't be human, but some sort of demigod. And who can really relate to that?

My real interest through the Buffy canon has always been Joss' view of power. Now that the Slayer legion is arguably the strongest non-demonic force on earth, what will be the outcome? Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Seeing how these characters work through that perilous journey is half the fun for me!

Almost as fun as the current presidential elections...
Which means no fun at all, really. Sorry, but anyone finding humor in the political situation ain't paying attention to the ramifications. Just saying. :-)

If Joss did not want this to be made a big deal, he could have told Dark Horse to can it on the orders. He didn't and they didn't and now it is a big deal, and it was advertised some time ago as a big deal, so there is no way to get around the fact that this is a "very special issue." To me, this is Marisa kissing Olivia, until proven wrong.
Do you think that Joss could actually tell the entire Dark Horse company not to try and make a buck?

Because I don't.
Regarding the NY Times article: I'm really glad this was out before a lot of people could buy the issue. Hopefully it will prevent a lot of unnecessary speculation about Buffy's sexual orientation.

When I read the issue, I didn't take it as Buffy is turning gay or bi, and at the same time it made sense. In previous issues it was pretty clear that Buffy was feeling disconnected from people, and alone. She was craving intimacy, and here's this person that's truly in love with her...who wants to be close to her.

While Buffy might not be attracted to women, she's also open-minded and not grossed out or turned off by it. Buffy didn't sleep with Satsu for the sex, but for the intimacy and connection with another person. Satsu slept with Buffy because she's in love with her. So they both had this vulnerability because they had a want/need but for different reasons.
"I'm a little shocked and disappointed (and then shocked that I'm disappointed)...I suppose I should reserve judgement but it does sound a bit like a sweeps stunt they'd pull on "The OC" or something. Especially if its something that 'just happened' and isn't going to be properly justified or explained."

ACK! Why do I always click on the spoiler links! I'm totally with this comment. I'm disappointed that this sex to hide the pain thing is being used again.. and now I feel a little further disconnected from Buffy's character, because I just can't relate.

And I guess I feel uncomfortable because the male fans I know just love to see more hot lesbians.. and this takes a little shine off my favourite fandom. Then again I'd prolly be all for some hot Xander homosexual sex scenes.
We been down this road already. The only development this develops is the idea that all women can be gay. Apparently this is not the case for men.

Sighs!
Yep that pretty much sums up my only dissatisfaction.
I trust Joss knows what he's doing, and already has this mapped out.. but my initial reaction without having got the issue yet, is 'oh great hot girl on girl.. again.' >.> Need to even things up and have Spike and Angel finally getting it on. Or ah, getting it on again ;)
Grrlromeo, you said "Buffy didn't sleep with Satsu for the sex, but for the intimacy and connection with another person." Question: you know this how? Lot of people have suggested this, but we have no proof at all that this is the case.

ITA with Magnus' comment- that would be far braver than this.
We been down this road already. The only development this develops is the idea that all women can be gay. Apparently this is not the case for men.


Having a lone sexual experience with someone of the same sex doesn't mean that they're gay, or can be gay. I don't think that was suggested at all in the issue. All it means is that...yeah people can have sex with someone they're not in love with.


but my initial reaction without having got the issue yet, is 'oh great hot girl on girl.. again.'


I can see how that conclusion can be made without having read the issue, because yeah the article does just focus on you know...they slept together. But in context it's actually very humorous.

Don't put up your guard when you read the issue. You'll miss the funny!

Grrlromeo, you said "Buffy didn't sleep with Satsu for the sex, but for the intimacy and connection with another person." Question: you know this how? Lot of people have suggested this, but we have no proof at all that this is the case.


Because...that's what Buffy said she was longing for in previous issues. Take a look at issue #11. It starts out with Buffy observing how the Slayers have "Connection." And ends with her discussion with Xander when she again says "Connection." She thinks it to herself once, and says it again. "Connection." All by itself...and then adds the second time "Why can't I feel it?"

It's Joss classic story arc style of connect the dots. The dots are there.

[ edited by GrrrlRomeo on 2008-03-06 05:24 ]
I completely agree with the idea that Buffy has been flirting with this since Faith, and I can't believe no one mentioned that idea until after 100 posts!

Word. There was a Faith/Buffy kiss written into "Enemies":

"Faith surprises Buffy by jerking her head forward - not to head-butt her, but to give her a quick KISS on the lips."

... the subtext between the two Slayers was rapidly evolving into text -- only unfortunately the WB stepped in and put an end to the gay. 'Twas sad: SMG had chemistry with Dushku, and Buffy/Faith is classic light warrior/dark mirror nemesis pairing.

I haven't been keeping up with the comics, but the only thing I can really feel about this is: why can't this have happened in season 3?!? Buffy ending up in bed with Faith would have upped their strange and entangled relationship to an even greater level; it would have made their falling out in the season finale even more epic! Lost opportunities.


She was in college. Why didn't she experiment then.

Because she was in college for one year, and that was jam-packed with stuff (friendships falling apart, the Initiative, Riley drama, Adam, etc.) and then her mom got sick in her sophomore and she essentially dropped out? That hardly leaves any time for experimentation of any kind.
If Joss did not want this to be made a big deal, he could have told Dark Horse to can it on the orders.

File this under the all-too-prevalent Fans Who Know Zip About How the [TV|Movie|Comicbook] Business Works category.
Sexuality is a spectrum. Sleeping with someone of the same sex once means... whatever Buffy thinks it means. Sure, she'll angst over it. It might happen again. It might not. As long as they had fun and there's isn't too much of a traumatic fallout, it doesn't even have to mean anything. Unfortunately the whole situation has been magnified by an increased print run and an article in the New York Times... but that doesn't take away from the fact that - this doesn't betray the character of Buffy NOR does it make her gay NOR does it mean she won't bone Angel when she next gets a chance NOR does it mean she won't fall in bed with another Slayer if she suddenly decides she's a Slayersexual and that's the only kind of sex she wants.

Mmmmmm, Slayer-on-Slayer action.

Altogether now... "I'll be in my -"
Totally with you crossoverman. What a lot of kerfuffle.
I'll be in your bunk too.
Grrlromeo, you said "Buffy didn't sleep with Satsu for the sex, but for the intimacy and connection with another person." Question: you know this how? Lot of people have suggested this, but we have no proof at all that this is the case.

It's all pretty much there in print, over the course of the eleven issues preceding this. I mean, we the people who have suggested this could end up being wrong, but if you want your proof for another's speculation, just check out #s 1-11.
*bleep *storm.
Onetrue- with an aunt who was a high-ranking exec on NYPD Blue, an uncle who was one of the original producers for the Partridge Family and spent much of his career with Dick Clark Productions, and tons of family in entertainment on both production and marketing, that is not true. Joss stopped the network from stopping him from a Willow Tara kiss; he damned well could have told Dark Horse to can the chatter. They could then tell him to go stuff himself, but let's be clear; this was presented as a "very special issue." Something Joss said he would never do.
this was presented as a "very special issue." Something Joss said he would never do.


Joss also said issue 5 was a very special issue as well. I don't remember the fans calling him out on that.
Where did he say that Simon (must've missed it) ?

(and did he mean it as "A Very Special ..." or just in the sense that it was very special to him ?)
Well, I'm a bit 'meh' about it all, too.

Not that Butsu wasn't a long time coming, but I kinda feel as if I'm almost being FORCED into an 'OMG!' reaction, when, frankly, I couldn't really care one way or the other. Maybe I just don't feel an emotional connection with this incarnation of Buffy, or with Satsu, because I'm really not understanding the decisions Buffy has made to this point.

I'm all for experimentation, but Buffy can't be too strong or confident if she feels the need to validate herself through sex again. Sleeping with someone who loves you, who you know you have no feelings for, reeks of desperation. In this case it's almost workplace harassment.

I'm usually right on the 'let's get behind Joss' train, but in this case, I sure do hope that the end justifies the means.
I think it's a neat storyline, but it doesn't strike me as that big of a deal. Joss already said Buffy's not gay, and, to me, that makes it pretty much that. One experience in a young woman's life, and not all that uncommon.

I experimented when I was her age too. That's a lot less cool to say when you're a guy. Ultimately it was just one in a line of experiences, and I can't think of a thing wrong with Buffy having it too.

I'll be in my bunk.

Hey, if Jayne can say it, I can say it.
Where did he say that Simon (must've missed it) ?

(and did he mean it as "A Very Special ..." or just in the sense that it was very special to him ?)


Dark Horse solicited the issue as "a tale personally important to series creator Joss Whedon" and Joss talked about it before hand in interviews.

Link:

That to me screams "a very special issue" more than anything else.

And quite frankly all this fuss over Dark Horse telling retailers to order more copies and Joss doing an interview is starting to look exceedingly silly. At the end of the day, it's not much of a big deal.
Fuss without substance is what we do though ;).

Issue 5 didn't feel like "A Very Special ..." to me but I guess it's all lines. To me, AVS is about beating you over the head with "The Point !" (TM) and disregarding the story or consistent characterisation in the process. Issue 5 seemed just to continue the theme of female gender empowerment that runs through all of Buffy, if it was "A Very Special ..." then i'd say pretty much every episode was (thematically it felt fairly similar to 'Prophecy Girl' for instance, just without the happy ending).

(cheers for the links though)
One thing that bothers me is that it seems kind of set up to /inspire/ the "I'll be in my bunk" reaction, where the Willow and Tara relationship was handled much more skillfully. I mean, I know Buffy's not going to form some long-term thing with Satsu, but eh. It just bugs me.

And for the record, I'd hate it if Angel and Spike got together. There's a line where it stops being plot and starts being fanservice.

[ edited by swanjun on 2008-03-06 14:12 ]
Dana5140, you're once again confusing content with marketing. It's nice that you can throw around connections that are meant to make us just believe you know what you're talking about. But when it came to the Willow/Tara kiss we're talking the series' content, a realm in which Joss has every right to argue with them.

But when you argue that Joss should have told Dark Horse not to, for example, tell shops to have extra copies of this issue in hand, you're arguing that Joss should be sticking his nose into DH's marketing and sales departments. And that's not his place, any more than it would have been at the WB or UPN.
Well, I'm glad I avoided this thread and getting spoiled before reading the issue.

I'm in the camp that this Saffy development felt completely natural and wasn't surprised in the least. Of course, it's not simple -- nothing is, least of all in a Whedon story. And I'm looking forward to seeing how this will play out because there's a lot of potential drama (and funny) here.

Off to the story thread now, wheee!
I don't care what Joss does. I am only saying that this was a "very special issue." It was, despite any words to the contrary.
Personally I was kind of disappointed, as I had hyped myself up for the last 48 hours for an AMAZING revelation or turn of events, and Buffy and Satsu having sex was really no big deal for me. It was: 'oh OK,' followed by 'oh no, was that the surprise?? Surely not...' then throughout the rest of the comic I half hoped to be hit with the 'real' even bigger shock. I think the (sub)plotline is fine, no problems with it at all, but I do now feel slightly sheepish for squeeing to friends about an unmissable worldshaking twist. I was more blown away by the last page suckerpunch in #3 of the Angel comic, and was hoping for/anticipating something of similar verse-altering magnitude.

However, that's just me, I can see that for many many fans this is big news, worthy of heated discussion, and I fully trust in and approve of Joss's reasons for wanting to depict the coupling.
Waitaminit. OTB, you initially took me to task because you said I had no understanding of how marketing worked. This is what you said: "File this under the all-too-prevalent Fans Who Know Zip About How the [TV|Movie|Comicbook] Business Works category."


So,when I then explain that I really do have some understanding you take me task for that as well: "that are meant to make us just believe you know what you're talking about."

So I am caught either way, apparently. Do you feel I come here to offer up some lies just to "win" a debate that has no winner,that somehow I am going to convert everyone to my way of htinking by virtue of my brilliance, on a site dedicated to Joss Whedon? I just enjoy the discussion, and you have effectively diverted the discussion off the discussion; I should not have to defend myself as part of this discussion, or prove my bonafides. Let's talk the issue, please, not this ad hominem stuff, okay?
Alright, everybody chill out a little.
Strangely, I'm kind of ambivalent about it. Since I now have a full day to finally digest what really happened, I found out I really don't give a flying frack that Buffy slept with a girl or not.

As others have said in the many threads about this issue and this subject, I'm more concerned about the ramifications of the deed. There will be ramifications. No matter how she will say that she and Satsu are equals, the perception is that Buffy is the leader and Satsu is one of her charges. Buffy, as well as Xander, are the leaders of the now-can-slay brigade because everyone looks to them for what needs to be done. Both Buffy and Xander are symbolically above the rest of the Slayer Army, and what they do is more scrutinized than the rest, even Willow. Now the fact Buffy has been caught, albeit the brass only knows about it, a compromising position with her charge, will definitely weaken her ability to lead. Her decisions, as others have said, will now be scrutinized even more, so she has to tread carefully especially when Satsu is involved.

So will Xander's decisions too, if the relationships with Renee's progesses. The best thing for Xander (and Renee) right now, as much I as like Renee and Xander together, is to take a step back and not let this continue. I hope Xander and Renee can learn from this. Unfortunately for Buffy and Satsu, they may have crossed the line, even if they are equals, that they may never be able to recover from it. If I was Buffy, I would defer all decision about Satsu to Xander, and if Xander and Renee continue to progress, Xander should defer Renee related decisions to Buffy.

For Buffy, personally, this shouldn't be viewed as a mistake, but for Buffy the leader, it is certainly a mistake.

Wow, I think I have talked myself out of the fanage of Buffy-Satsu and Xander-Renee. Huh.
This is off the front flippin' page already? Sheesh, "buzzy" month!

Odd, every negative reaction I had (starting with "Yawn" and going from there) has already been a dvanced, plus I few I didn't think of. Of course, given that I'm a contrarian a, s well as an egotist, I'm thinking up answers.

Admittedly I am nota reader who trusts Joss, but I agree that he doesn't really do "stunts" per se.

Satsuko might die, of course, but I wouldn't expect to see Buffy joining JAmes T. Kirk and Little Joe Cartwright over coffee to compare memories anytime soon.

I don't think it's the greatest idea Joss as creator or Buffy as a character has eeveer had, but to me it's not "bad-bad."

PRoblem of course if Buffy replays how she played Spike (?) or, another problem, if she turns into Parker. That largely depends on Satsuko, on how hip she is about what Buffy is offering in the relationship and what she isn't. Actually, form my own experience. less on how much Satsu knows than on how much she can beleive it emotionally.

And this organization doesn't have a formals tructure that i can see. So I don't think Xander and Buffy are really crossing a line, since there isn't one. Perhaps, even probably, there should be, but there isn't.

But I don't think this has any imapct on whether Joss brings Tara back. If anything, I think it increases it, but no real connection I see.

Hope Beachhead Comics ahs ssome left,a nd Angel 4 tomorrow.

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