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March 12 2008

(SPOILER) Spike:After the Fall-coming in July from IDW! A 4 issue spin-off of Angel:After the Fall from Lynch,Whedon and Urru.

More info on Ryall's blog:http://ryalltime.blogspot.com/2008/03/spiked.html

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2008-03-12 00:46 ]

If this is an early April Fools prank I will cry.

In the meantime, *goes to rooftop* YES!!!

Spike and Lorne being buddy buddy. Spike and Connor being friendly all uncle and nephew like *pictures Angel's face* . I could cry but for a different reason *wipes stray tear*

Thank you!
Spike and Illyria? Joss and Lynchin' Lynchster? I'm in.

Hooray!

[ edited by gossi on 2008-03-11 22:46 ]
Ya I am really happy about this. Love Lynch's writing and adding an extra comic set in the Angelverse is just heaven!
I am so amped for this.

But for #9, they said "new art team of Nick Runge and Art Lyon." Does that mean no more Franco? :/ Nick Runge is amazing, but I'll miss Franco quite a lot if he isn't around for the conclusion of "After the Fall."

But yeah, this is the best news since ever. I can't wait for "Spike: After the Fall"!!!!
Oh I also noticed that there will be a different artistic team on the Angel comic- not sure how I feel about that. Would like to keep some continuity going in the Angel comic, but Urru cannot be expected to do two a month. Ah it'll be good to see some other interpretations of the Angelverse and this story. As long as Lynch is writing and it remains as good as it is I am happy!
So, what's the betting the story here is similarishmaybejust to the Spike DVD project which was once pitched, many times neglected (by studios, not j).
What work has Nick Runge done Pat?
Okay, Dark Horse, you would appear to have just been served. Weaz the Faith spinoff?
Awesome! Should be good, i think this is the start of a long-term commitment to Angelverse from Lynch. Not that 12 issues isn't long term.

I mean looooong term...
Just adding another Yay!
Ah I just saw that Nick Rung is the artist behind that amazing Wesley preview page from 'First Night'. Ok that is all kinds of awesome/Cant wait to see more work of his.

I love Franco,and he will still be involved in the world through this, but its cool to get a different viewpoint too.
So, basically, I need to call my human resources person and just have my entire paycheck direct deposited to my local comic store? Got it. :)

(Oh, and YAY! for more Spike)
Now Franco and I have a SPIKE trilogy!

I wasn't going to do this comic unless it was going to be knock-you-out great. I didn't want to dilute ANGEL:ATF with a lackluster spin-off. Halfway through writing the first issue, I realized this was gonna work beyond what we thought.

First of our SPIKE stories without Beck, though. Sigh. Though Illyria is suh-wheet!

You guys won't be disappointed. It's a really dark, really fun tale.
So Brian....is the promised Spike tale in the style of Ed Byrne and 3 Irish brothers (remember that interview;))

Much excitement on all boards as you can tell. Glad we are getting more Angelverse stories from you sir. Any more you wanna add to your already full plate....we are there to buy!
Yes! Yesyesyesyesyes!

So excited to be getting a more involved story about these characters. Looking forward to it with glee.

Thank y'all from the bottom of my Angel-loving heart.
I guess it does pay to say the magic word!! Thank You, Brian!!I am Happy, Happy, Happy!! Whoooooo!!
Woot again ;).

Just to be pedantic (I know, totally not like me *cough* ;) does
But what about Spike? Does his official (read: approved by Whedon) story get explored and told anywhere?

mean this mini is Joss approved ? Liking the dark, liking the Blue, if there're onion blossoms and/or Bandicootery there could be 'splodin squeeage over here.

So this is presumably the currently owned property Chris Ryall mentioned. I'm gonna go ahead and say what we're all thinking and speculate that the new property Brian's involved with is the 'Ron Jeremy's ... One Eyed Monster' adaptation and that it'll be IDW's first pop-up book. Am I close ?
Brian, this sounds awesome.

Now, do you think you and Ryall can do the "you got served" thing to Scott Allie?

And I haven't read "Asylum" or "Shadow Puppets" but... *why* be a story without Beck? I mean, you have an in with the writer, don't you? :)
Didnt know about this Simon-thanks!
That obviously isn't going to be the final cover. For one thing, Franco's name is on it, and I don't think he does a FIRST NIGHT story. I had no idea they were soliciting that, though.

Back to SPIKE:ATF, I'm happy you guys are excited! It makes ME excited! We're excited TOGETHER!
A hardcover "First Night" collection?
A canonical Spike: After the Fall miniseries?
Could this BE any better? Thinking not...
Could this BE any better?


Yes. Issue 5 is out a week earlier than expected. Next week in fact going by what Previews say.

Link:
Oh wow, it just occurred to me that SPIKE:ATF premieres around the San Diego Comic Con. That is really cool.
Sweet....cant wait to get that.
Joss is starting to cost me alot of money!!!
Pat, maybe if it came with free beer?
We were excited about it when you first mentioned it on a Q&A podcast, Brian.

But you know, with excited comes impatience (at least with me) and now I want the next ATF issue to come out!
King, you're so right. That would be the only way to make it even better. Because really, who can say no to free beer? Not me.
Issue 5 is coming out a week early? YES!

Umm...does this make me an official comic book geek now?
I never really expected it to come out the 26th. If there's one thing I've learned from buying my back-up copies from TFAW, it is to take the release dates they post with the teensiest grain of salt. They've been wrong with the release dates of the past four Angel issues. I've had my calendar marked for March 19th since January. :]
Ok. Now this is going to be great. More comics! Yes! We're all officially comic book geeks. And I rejoice because of that :-)
Ok, I've never been that much into comics, a few X-Men here or there, but only if it involved Rogue and Gambit, that said, I was intrigued to find out that Buffy and then Angel were going to live on in comic form. I was sceptical at first, but after readng Season 8's first trade paperback I was hooked, sadly I have to wait till june for the second issue of Buffy and the first issue of After the Fall (I did read the first single comic though and loved it!) so now with this spike revelation,
I must know...where can I sign up!!! Yay Spike, Yay Illyria!! Yay for fandoms that make up the heart and soul of a writer's muse :)
Ya we are all comic book geeks. Its great:)


As long as the Whedonverse pumps out more comics I am there!
We're all officially comic book geeks.

Hee! And yes, I'm there, too.
Ryall has released another cover image on his blog:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_sWu0-rmtFZM/R9b9PFsWGgI/AAAAAAAAAVo/fim8L5XeGcg/s1600-h/Spike_Cover_Colors-1.jpg
Aw shucks, that one ain't done yet. I dig that image, but it will look really really cool by the time it's out.
Blame Ryall for posting it:)

It looks cool now -cant imagine what it's gonna be like when it's really really cool:)
More Grindhouse-y.
Heh.

Congrats, Brian. I'm drunk and typed that as Brain then; consider yourself both your own name *AND* a brain. Or two.
Is it possible that Asylum and Shadow Puppets will enter Joss-accepted canon? I am interested, and obviously they will be good, since its Brian, but at the same time I have never read anything that Joss has said isn't canon yet...

Joss is starting to cost me alot of money!!!

I was just thinking that... at the moment I don't really have money for any substantial amount of food (I can get by obviously, no worries), but I am still picking up Serenity on Thursday... /facepalm
I was wondering how this would work with Angel: After the Fall . . . they originally said it was going to be 12 issues but now First Night is like a three parter. So when that comes out in April, May and June, part 6 of the 12 issues for the Angel: After the Fall resume in the end of June right? And Spike: After the Fall comes out in July. So does that mean this 4 part run is like focused sole on Spike & Illyria version of the fight to get outta hell? Maybe this 4 part run is a sidebar to the overall Angel: After the Fall story and the two are connected? If it is, it would be some much like the TV show, two issues a month of the same story, different aspect of said story? Awesome. And maybe, just maybe they return for Angel: After the Fall issue 11 and 12? Or is this common knowledge and I'm just now figuring this out (or wayyyyyy off base)?

Okay so I re-readed the article, but a boy can dream can't he?!?!

[ edited by vivaprestondunn on 2008-03-12 01:52 ]

[ edited by vivaprestondunn on 2008-03-12 01:57 ]
VERY excited about a Spike spin-off. Here's hoping canon will not make it an Illyria (with a wee bit of Spike) story!
YES YES!!!! I still haven't read Angel:After the Fall (waiting for the TPB) but what am I gonna do now?!
More Groundhouse-y? All I have to say to that is: :-)
Nothing to add other than EXCITED!!!
I'm very glad Spike will have his very own canon comic.
A True Christmas in July !!
This is just terrible news.

No wait, it's the other thing. It's great news. :)

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-03-12 03:00 ]
this "mystery character" that will appear in the second First Night issue is easily going to be Harmony! She was confirmed for ATF but hasn't shown up yet... I think this one belongs to her!
She isn't confirmed for ATF. Never was.
You're awesome Brian. 6 posts in one thread! I'd say that deserves a hug and an extra hearty thank you!
Who is it? Who is it? Who is it?
I ask three times.
And Brian, will you be having a podcast anytime soon. Which, by the way, has been wonderful.
Happy happy joy joy!
Awesome news. Spike in his own canon comic, woo-hoo! And with Illyria too!
As for Beck: KingOfCretins, I hope she stays well out of Hell, she's too young and sweet to go through this, and she had rough time as a child. But maybe we can get a glimpse of Betta George in Spike:ATF comic, as the poor fish is already there...
As for new artist team: I'm of two minds. It's great Franco will still be doing Spike and Illyria, but I love his Angel so much too... But Nick drew such an awesome Wesley... And for the folks who couldn't get into Franco now there's a chance to hit a jackpot with the new artist... And Franco still be there... Nah. It's all good, like having a cake and eating it too. I'm very excited.
So, will we get "After the Fall" spinoffs about Gwen "Elle from Heroes is just a bad knockoff of me" Raiden, Connor, Illyria, and Gunn? If so, you should.
I tend to prefer Spike in a supporting role. I think he's a tremendous foil to Angel. Hell, he's the definition of a foil to Angel. Though, to be fair, I've always had reservations about the character. Felt like other characters were left to the wayside to service his arc and it didn't end up being particularly interesting. The soul arc rang false to me, felt like a "cool new toy" kind of a thing. I still don't understand how he can control the demon, the vampire, inside of him long enough to actually get a soul. That seems to fly in the face of previously established stuff, like when Angel's demon kills the thing inside Ms. Calendar... You know? The demon is still incredibly powerful and present, even though Angel has a soul. So, how can Spike, who doesn't have a soul control it long enough to... I'm actually ranting, not even joke ranting. Sorry.

I actually do enjoy Lynch's Spike, though. He's got the voice right.
Brian, you said Harmony was back!

In page 3 of this article: http://www.normantranscript.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_284234504.html

Was a fairly early article though... maybe you and Joss had changed your minds.
Oh snap... what now Brian?
I want to thank you too, Brian. I have to admit, I used to call the show Spike...I Mean Buffy. Then later, Spike...I mean Angel. Not to say I don't love the other characters, but he's my guy. And you write him so darn well.
The big question is, does Franco give Spike large breasts?

*runs away hard and fast with various fruits and meats clinging*

Seriously, though. I'm excited. This sounds awesome. ;)
The thing about Spike, is that his DEMON was part of what wanted his soul. The demon is EVIL, yes, but it's also id, and ultimately Spike's id WANTED BUFFY, just like it WANTED MUMMY and then WANTED DRUSILLA. William wanted, more than anything else, love; Angelus was defined by, more than anything else, hate. (Well, hatred for Daddy, anyway, not so much for his victims, whom he didn't condescend to have feelings about.) Compare Spike's attitude to mum vs. Angelus' attitude towards daddy. Angel's soul and his demon hate each other; Spike's soul and his demon work together. That's the key, crucial difference between the two, and the reason why the difference between Angel's halves is more dramatic.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2008-03-12 05:31 ]
I was misquoted. I said so when that article came up. Trust me when I tell you I never, ever said Harmony was in the series. Not saying she is or isn't, I hate spoilers with a passion.
Uh huh. Spoilers are the suck.

Sometimes they're hard to avoid, though.
OMG how spoilt are we the fans of the Whedonverse!
Buffy, Angel, Spike, Firefly comics
Why can't the rest of life be this sweet?
The third cover on Chris Ryall's blog looks like it was inspired by a recent Ghost Rider cover.Sort of like how the cover to Angel:ATF #5 was inspired by the Justice League cover.
Excellent excellent news.
My favorite character of all time by a writer who really gets it.

Squeeeeeee!
Spike uses a chain in the first issue, too. It's pretty neat.

I'm such a dork. "It's pretty neat". Hold me, world.
Ok everybody, big world hold for Brian *hug him and squeeze him and play with him all the time*
I CAN'T STOP GIVING THEM MY MONEY!!!!!!!

Not that I would want to even if I could.
Wow, this is awesome news.
I'm loving After the fall but i've also been missing a Spike centric comic after Asylum and Shadow Puppets.
I was really keeping my fingers crossed for a post-show Spike series. While it may not be a long and complete future series, i'm still glad that this awesome character is getting some of the spotlight again. IDW makes great use of their Spike-license.
Yes. Yes yes yes yes. And did I say, "Yes?"

Spike is my favorite character of all time, in any medium, and this is just sweet news.

I'm also glad to know that this month's Angel will be the last with Franco...yet he's moving to Spike. I may be able to quite tolerate Franco now, but I'm sorry, I still don't think he's that great.
Love love love the news. 'd love even more to hear from Joss on it. Brian, can you tell us if Joss' involvement with Spike:ATF is the same he has on the mother series ?
The series is information and stories that were going to be inferred/referenced/glimpsed at in ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL. Spike's situation in that was one Joss and I discussed, now I'm fleshing it out and adding new wrinkles to it.

I was adamant that we get Joss' blessing on telling Spike's story or else I wasn't going to do it. He was for it, I attempted a script, at any point ready to stop if it felt like filler or lazy or unnecessary. I wasn't for doing a spin-off, but a few pages in it was apparent this was going to work beyond any Spike story we've told.

There's a lot of heart, a lot of action, some humor, some horrible happenings. It's one of the only times I've been surprised while writing, I fell in love with the book pretty quickly. Bearing in mind I'm only two issues in and it could all go to pot, I think it's my best Spike writing so far.

Sorry I rambled, I'm really excited about it. Can you tell?
"I think it's my best Spike writing so far."

That's a pretty big claim given the excellence of the preceeding Spike stuff you've done - I can't wait.
Thanks for the clarification, Brian. And for anybody who's a cover junkie, Brain explains some incongruities on issue 5's covers:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=335358&blogID=366043635
Apparently i'm questioner non grata, ah well, so it goes ;).

Right so it exists in a bit of a gray area re: canonicity. Not that it matters, good is good and canon or not i'm sure it'll be that. Just collating data.
Saje, I think Brian pretty much said it's canon, from his reply above, with Joss' blessing and all, or did I miss something ? Looks like Faith's arc on Season 8, a story that diverges from the lead character's main story but is still part of the big picture.

Oh, and Dark Horse, don't you feel like you've been one-upped ? Don't you feel a certain rogue-not so rogue anymore Slayer/father-not so father figure anymore Watcher pairing should have the same spinoff treatment ?:-)

[ edited by Perseo on 2008-03-12 11:04 ]
I'm with Perseo on the canon bit, Saje. Brian did say "I was adamant that we get Joss' blessing on telling Spike's story or else I wasn't going to do it. He was for it" And seeing as it has "information and stories that were going to be inferred/referenced/glimpsed at in ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL" I think it fills in the missing spaces that were hinted to in AFT, filling it with yummy goodness ;)

Oooh, I really hope in it we see when Spike and Connor meet and find out how they "relate" to each other. Bet that's one of the funny moments.

I can't wait. But, seeing as the next ANGEL issue might be coming out sooner than expected, I might be able to hold on for a little while before the whining.
Like I say, it's no biggie but (to me) having Joss' "blessing on telling Spike's story" and him being "for it" says, "I trust you to tell this story because you're ace" it doesn't say "Which means it's canon". Talking about the rough shape of a story then Brian running with it isn't the same (to me) as Joss having final approval over that story (which would make it canon IMO).

I guess you could see it as a kind of "pre-approval" but the simple phrase "This is canon" hasn't, so far as I know, appeared (IDW - for perfectly understandable reasons that I fully support - are kind of past masters, out of necessity, at "not quite" saying things while "not quite" not saying them either ;).

(course, Joss can "anoint" anything as canon after the event, whether he approved it beforehand or not)

Either way, i'm just happy (like, so near the top end of the 'happy' range it's tapping 'ecstatic' on the shoulder ;) that we're getting more Spike stories from the non-ME writer that "gets" him best (though some of the others have been no slouches either, Peter David springing to mind).
Yay for a new Spike story and with more Illyria is just icing on the cake.

Day 1 purchase!
Saje...since it comes under the (canon) After the Fall title, and tells the story leading up to the events in After the Fall,by the author of After the Fall...

Well...

:)
Yep, and that's my preferred assumption angeliclestat ;). But without an unambiguous statement, that's all it is right now.

Put it this way: 'Angel: After the Fall' has 'Whedon Lynch Urru' at the top. What will 'Spike: After the Fall' have ? Or put it another way: 'Asylum' is also written by Brian and (AFAIK) doesn't contradict anything we see in 'After the Fall'. It's still not canon though.

Just to re-iterate, don't much mind, it only matters for stories set afterwards (I know that sound less likely the more I type but trust me, i'm just bored at work ;).
I know what you mean Saje. But I think we can take anything that comes from IDW from this point on as canon. It's now telling the official Angelverse story. Whedon and Lynch discussed this story and Lynch is fleshing it out,LIke Vaughan and the Faith arc for example.

I am taking anything Dark Horse does with Buffy as canon, and anything IDW does with Angel from now on as canon. They both have working relationships with Joss,and all the stories go through him.
I'm more and more in favour of IDW and Dark Horse getting Joss a purple seal in form of a cannon:-)

If IDW know what they're doing, they'll put "Whedon" on the cover, and not just as bait.
Here is a link to the blog of the colourist of the Grindhouse poster-style cover, and his comments on it:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=77012142&blogID=366043730
It reminds me of an old Judge Dredd cover more than anything else.
Yeah, with the bike and the "towards camera" view-point (the background could almost be the cursed Earth too). Can't actually remember one with a chain but it's the sort of thing he might wave around in the course of (ahem ;) "executing" his duties.

Very cool.
And I like the whole 'Route 666' thing:)
This is great news - you keep writing & I'll keep buying.

The comic store guy is gonna love me :)
And I like the whole 'Route 666' thing:)

Yeah, (literally) "Get your kicks on Route 66[6]" ;).
One word....EXCELLENT!!!!!!!
Thank you Brian Lynch and IDW for helping to satisfy my Spike cravings.
Is it too much to hope that after ATF is all completed, you could still see fit to continue the adventures of our Blondie Bear from time to time ????? Hint...Hope.....Pray.....
Thanks for the clarification, Brian. And for anybody who's a cover junkie, Brain explains some incongruities on issue 5's covers:


I was glad to see this explanation, although I was a *little* disappointed that it's not Groo, Modern Man and is Groonan. But it's sort like when Emma had to change her hair in Season 6 -- easier not to have a guy of the same basic build and facial structure look and dress like the title character :)

That was totally me that posted the Mark Lutz picture, though... mwuhahahaha.

I am taking anything Dark Horse does with Buffy as canon, and anything IDW does with Angel from now on as canon. They both have working relationships with Joss,and all the stories go through him.


Sounds like the right idea. I'm glad that there is an integrated canon and that Joss appears to take it seriously. And, all things considered, we're lucky for the Dark Horse/IDW split on the rights to publish these books, because we might not have Brian as the Angel braintrust if we didn't.

Love chain-fighting action Spike -- it actually reminds me a little of "Bargaining" for some reason. Isn't the chain supposed to be on fire, though? :) Seriously, that chain should be thing like the collapsible swords and guns were Wesley's.
Aha, the 'flaming chain' plucks the old grey matter - maybe Ghost Rider is actually a more likely and fitting inspiration than Dredd ? Any GR fans know if that's a direct homage ?

Think the artists are Aussies though so I guess it could be either US or UK influenced.
WilliamTheB said:
The thing about Spike, is that his DEMON was part of what wanted his soul. The demon is EVIL, yes, but it's also id, and ultimately Spike's id WANTED BUFFY, just like it WANTED MUMMY and then WANTED DRUSILLA... Angel's soul and his demon hate each other; Spike's soul and his demon work together...


Thanks for articulating this so well... I've never been able to say it quite right, and that there is the thing. Perfect. :)
I don't know if it's a direct homage to some iconic Ghost Rider image, but it certainly is evocative of him. But in its awesomeness, to quote Bill Parcells in some beer commercial, "that's a good thing. Not a bad thing." Perhaps that's Johnny Blaze, but instead of a flaming skeletion, now when he rides the night hunting evil, he turns into James Marsters?

About Spike and his soul, I like Spike, probably my 4th favorite character, maybe 5th, but I never thought he got his soul with any thought beforehand as what it would *mean* to have it. It was just a lifestyle accessory, and if Buffy had once been in love with Angel, the Vampire With an Escalade, Spike would have gone out and gotten one of those. That's why, in my view, he has that rueful "it's what *you* wanted, right" shouted to the heavens and admits to trying to cut it out of himself -- buyer's remorse.

For me, the big turn-around moments in Spike becoming a real champion and understanding what it means to have a soul and what it means about his past were "Chosen" ("I can feel it, Buffy") and in "Damage", when he realizes just what he really was by failing to distinguish between himself and the guy who killed Dana's family.
Agree, KoC... it's was that darn id, not thought-out logic-y bits.
SPIKE:ATF tells a story that was going to be talked about and seen in the very canon ANGEL:ATF but instead builds on it and fleshes it out, that's pretty much canon.
Thank you Brian. I really don't get all this talk about is it canon or not?

The mind boggles.
To tell you the truth, I don't either. Even when I wasn't writing the characters, it didn't occur to me to think of whether or not things were canon. I understand now why people care, but I just love a good story. For instance, STAR WARS eps 1-3? Lucas says they happened, I pretend they didn't.
I'm excited about this project, but why was Franco Urro moved over? I feel it breaks the consistency of the Angel After the Fall story to introduce a new artist halfway through the series (re: The current 12 issue Trials of Shazaam series from DC Comics, where Howard Porter left halfway through... although that was due to an arm injury)... thoughts?
Good enough for me, cheers Brian ;).

(s'funny, you used to "get all this talk about is it canon or not" angeliclestat, back in the dim and distant 4 hours ago when you said "I know what you mean Saje.". The mind does indeed boggle ;)
Hey Saje...cant a guy change his mind:) Although I think you want Whedon's name on it to prove its canonicity. That's what I 'understood'

I meant more 'people not accepting these comics as canon', when they clearly are. That I dont get.


Seriously I read on more than one board that some people are not accepting Buffy:Season 8 as canon. Seriously. When you are up against that kind of thinking what are you to do?

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2008-03-12 17:15 ]
I am Franco's biggest fan, hands down. The thought of doing a SPIKE series without him was scary. Luckily everyone wanted him on this book: myself, Chris, Franco...

...I have no doubt Franco and I will work together for a long time to come. I can't imagine it any other way. He's one of my favorite artists, and one of my favorite people in general.
I tend to prefer Spike in a supporting role. I think he's a tremendous foil to Angel. Hell, he's the definition of a foil to Angel. Though, to be fair, I've always had reservations about the character. Felt like other characters were left to the wayside to service his arc and it didn't end up being particularly interesting. The soul arc rang false to me, felt like a "cool new toy" kind of a thing. I still don't understand how he can control the demon, the vampire, inside of him long enough to actually get a soul. That seems to fly in the face of previously established stuff, like when Angel's demon kills the thing inside Ms. Calendar... You know? The demon is still incredibly powerful and present, even though Angel has a soul. So, how can Spike, who doesn't have a soul control it long enough to... I'm actually ranting, not even joke ranting. Sorry.
I actually do enjoy Lynch's Spike, though. He's got the voice right.

You're not alone Sandy Llama ... I'm also concerned that the 'cool new toy' aspect will extend to the comics and Angel ATF will suffer for it.
The fact that Brian is so excited for this makes me all the more excited for it. I love it when a creator is passionate about their work to the point where they want to share their excitement with the world and their fans.
I'm pretty sure that at this point, we can assume that if A) Joss' name is on the book, and B) he's not suing Brian or IDW to stop making the book, it's canon.

Not scientific, I know, but seems to make sense.

I've seen the canon denial pick up, especially for Season 8, a little bit every few issues. Giant Dawn? A few defections. Giles and Buffy on the outs? A few more. And, of course, 8.12. Thankfully, I haven't seen anybody really get into that with "After the Fall".

I have a theory on that, aside from bunnies: four years of fanfic. The way "Chosen" ended invited fans to really just create their own version of the story that follows. There was a settled "status quo" from which they could work in that we knew who was alive, about the Slayers, etc. With "Not Fade Away", there was no status quo -- we didn't know who lived, who died, what happened to them, anything. Fewer fic writers by far stuck their neck out to speculate what happened next. So, for several years, the fandom was given and absorbed a bunch of different version of "Season 8" and thought of their own, but not as much so with "Season 6" of Angel, so more people were predisposed to dispute or reject the canon Season 8 comic than they were "After the Fall". People get hooked on "After the Fall" like exposition crack (cracksposition?) because, not only do we have a cool story for the characters, we're *finding out where things stand* with them, the "What Happened?" of it.

In either case, we as fans are very lucky to have the creator of these properties sanctioning new canon material, two separate publishers working with him to make it work, and great writers realizing the ideas they all come up with. The ones that just blow off the idea that these comics *count* in the same way the televised seasons (never "series") count... they're the ones missing out.
When you are up against that kind of thinking what are you to do?

Give up angeliclestat ;). Buffy season 8 has been unambiguously stated as canon by the only person that really can (Joss) as has 'Angel: After the Fall' and now, as far as i'm concerned, so has 'Spike: After the Fall' (whereas before, to my perhaps overly-literal frame of mind, it hadn't).

The canon thing is almost a case of relaxation for me. I can relax reading the story because I know that the events i'm enjoying reading about aren't just going to suddenly cease to exist as far as the characters are concerned, at any moment, at someone else's whim (at least, not without it being acknowledged in the story).

It makes the fictional universe feel like a persistent entity, like things that happen now are contributing to the characters' future behaviour. For reference, imagine if, while watching Buffy or Angel, any episode at any time could just have Willow suddenly never have existed, without explanation. Or suddenly never have been gay or loved Oz or "insert your least favourite possibility here". Something about that would be downright unsettlin' ;).

A good story is a good story though and enjoyable on its own merits, regardless of whether it's canon - think I may have mentioned that once or twice on this thread already ;).
I'm pretty sure that at this point, we can assume that if A) Joss' name is on the book, and B) he's not suing Brian or IDW to stop making the book, it's canon.

Yeah, but if Joss' name isn't on the book and he's not suing IDW then it could be oh, 'Angel: Old Friends' or 'Spike vs Dracula' or 'Spike: Asylum' or 'Spike: Shadow Puppets' or any number of other IDW projects which haven't been canon. Kinda why I asked whose name was going on it (which would be a clue in the absence of a definitive statement).

You guys assumed it regardless and that's great, whatever floats your boat - now we know though, and that's what floats mine ;).
*Give up angeliclestat ;).*

Never:) Ah I know what you mean...I suppose it's just annoying is all. And kind of an insult to the writers in question. Whether that's Joss,Lynch,Vaughan or Goddard. (not directed at you btw)

*In either case, we as fans are very lucky to have the creator of these properties sanctioning new canon material, two separate publishers working with him to make it work, and great writers realizing the ideas they all come up with. The ones that just blow off the idea that these comics *count* in the same way the televised seasons (never "series") count... they're the ones missing out. *

Amen!
Well, we never have a meeting in top secret skyscraper and stamp "canon" on each page of the script or comic, but bottom line, this is the story that was going to be referred to in ANGEL:ATF and is instead getting it's own series.

Buy it if you want to read a great SPIKE comic. That's my pitch!
*You guys assumed it regardless and that's great, whatever floats your boat - now we know though, and that's what floats mine ;). *

Fair enough...but I do think that it's better to give IDW the benefit of the doubt from now on. As I said earlier;anything that comes from IDW from now on in the Angel line (unless expressly said to the contrary) is canon and part of the continuation of Angel IMHO
I got the impression from interviews last year that Joss wasn't too bothered about the canon status for After The Fall as opposed to Buffy season 8.

Joss on After The Fall

The people who don’t want to accept the comic book don’t have to, and the people who want more, they shall have it.


However I will say that this particular Whedonesque thread is not canon.
*Well, we never have a meeting in top secret skyscraper and stamp "canon" on each page of the script or comic,*

Really? That could be quite fun. You could all have your own secret identities and secret bases and plot to take over the world.


I dunno...its what I'd do...
*However I will say that this particular Whedonesque thread is not canon. *

Ok ...I'm outta here then!

:)
Brian, I just assumed you, Joss, Franco, Ryall, Scott Allie, Brian K. Vaughan, Drew Goddard, and Georges Jeanty had reconstituted the Circle of the Black Thorn.
God, I wish, King. That would be a fun meeting.

I am kinda bewildered. I'm just writing this, I love it, it will be awesome, that's where I stand!

Speaking of this, SIMS are calling me, gotsta go for now!
Don't be bewildered, be wildered instead. Look, the buying was a given for me, canon or not. I'm just not great with uncertainty - i'm not like you arty types, I like my ones and zeroes ;).

However I will say that this particular Whedonesque thread is not canon.

In that case I say all the 'e's in this thread no longer exist ! No-one can prove me incorrect ! But they might be able to prov m incorrct.

Well, we never have a meeting in top secret skyscraper and stamp "canon" on each page of the script or comic

Top secret basements are the new top secret skyscrapers anyway. Fact.
Oh thank you Simon, I had missed that 'Geek Blog'. Canon is important to me only because of some of the excessively lame early Buffy comics from Dark Horse: I refuse to believe that a 15 year old Buffy really went to Las Vegas. But personally I'm willing to believe that Spike went to the asylum and to fight puppets in Japan because Joss said they were cool (and because I loved them). I realize others may not consider Brian's earlier Spike comics to be retroactively canon, but even without the top secret skyscraper meeting I think the 'stamp of approval' is definitely on there.
This just in, I'm not canon. I...never...existe....

Haunt...wil be....sooooo happ
So when is "Angel, the Vampire With an Escalade" coming out? Sounds dark.
See what happens? Brian confessing to not being canon (or even existing) and everyone stops posting on this thread! Well, I better run and get my copy of Serenity: Better Days.
So Whedonesque, Joss and Brian are just figments of my overactive imagination?

Nooo, Kahnnnnnnn!! Darn you!!
Hey! I'm still here!

Where'd y'all gooooooooooooooooooo?


Mal and Jayne really aren't sly, you know. That's just an unfounded rumor.
This is such a rotten time to be without a computer. So much happening, so much discussion, so many ways I could get into trouble...okay maybe not as many on this thread.

This sounds fun. I look forward to it.

Although I am an artsy type, I am really glad to be told if things are being considered canon by Joss. As Saje says, it just makes it easier for my head to know where to put the information.
For instance, STAR WARS eps 1-3? Lucas says they happened, I pretend they didn't.

This is me, officially in love with Brian.
I enjoyed Spike:Asylum and Spike:Shadow Puppet so I'm sure a new series with Spike will be equally enjoyable. For me there's never enough Spike. I find that character to be the most complex of any of Joss' creations. It sounds like a great premise for a series... of comics. I'm very excited about this news.
Simon, if the thread isn't canon, can it still be cannon -- can we wheel it around and fire it at things? 'Cause that'd be, you know, suitably absurd -- a cannon made of thread ... :)

Must report conversation I had this morning with a representative of TFAW (quotes approximated in some places):

Me: I'd like to add "Spike: After the Fall" to my subscriptions.
Him: You mean "Angel: After the Fall."
Me: No, I'm already getting that one -- I mean "Spike: After the Fall."
Him: I'm not sure about ... [checks computer] ... oh, look at that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Me [deadpan]: Don't worry, I'm sure I'm the only person that will ask about it.
Him [likewise deadpan]: I'm sure you are, too. Not like things will go crazy around here or anything once it's available for pre-order.

So anyway, if it's a cannon made of thread, does it shoot posts? Or needles? Or knots?
The thing about Spike, is that his DEMON was part of what wanted his soul. The demon is EVIL, yes, but it's also id, and ultimately Spike's id WANTED BUFFY, just like it WANTED MUMMY and then WANTED DRUSILLA. William wanted, more than anything else, love; Angelus was defined by, more than anything else, hate. (Well, hatred for Daddy, anyway, not so much for his victims, whom he didn't condescend to have feelings about.) Compare Spike's attitude to mum vs. Angelus' attitude towards daddy. Angel's soul and his demon hate each other; Spike's soul and his demon work together. That's the key, crucial difference between the two, and the reason why the difference between Angel's halves is more dramatic.

So, the demon gives up control because Spike felt really bad about trying to rape Buffy? It just doesn't make any sense. As soon as Spike gets the soul, the vampire/demon loses complete control of him. Why would it allow itself to be pushed aside? I appreciate your explanation, it's certainly thoughtful, but I can't agree.

The more likely explanation is probably less thoughtful. It wouldn't have made sense for evil Spike to hang around and help out. You know, because he was evil and a vampire. The chip and the soul were just pulled out of thin air to keep Marsters/Spike on the show, because the creative people on the show liked the actor/character. I can appreciate that. But, there should be loyalty to the narrative and the story not to characters and actors. It's why I've enjoyed The Wire so much over the years. When characters, huge, popular, important characters reached the end of their story, Dee, Wallace, Bodie, Stringer, Omar, Prez, Cutty, Snoop, whomever... They were written out of the show. Something like Spike sitting in a bathtub for Season 4, then teaming up with Adam and trying to kill Xander (!) and the rest... Dude, they should have staked him right then. It's just awful. Undermining the narrative is what lead to the final seasons being so meh.
I completely disagree with you Sandy Llama. I think the Spike story has been brilliantly complex. And William the B's explanation makes a lot of sense.
It's like shouting in the wilderness Sandy Llama ...
resa, is that a surprise in a thread that is all about celebrating the new comic of a very much loved character? Really?
no ... it's not surprising ... I was just saying that it's no use trying to have that discussion here....
no ... it's not surprising ... I was just saying that it's no use trying to have that discussion here....

Naw, Whedonesque people are pretty cool about it. Some of the Spike fans out there will just shout you down. Some of them are, without a doubt, Marsters fangirls. People here at least seem to be willing to engage in a thoughtful back and forth without personal attacks. I want to engage people that disagree with me, maybe make them think about my opinion (and, the reverse, obviously). I doubt I'll change anyones mind, but that doesn't mean it's fun to try.

We're not alone, though, dude. There is a reason that critical opinion and Nielsen numbers (which reached their high water mark during Seasons 2 and 3, the best seasons of the show) waned in the later seasons of Buffy.
There's not much to come of the questions of Spike's soul and the motivations, unless Brian feels like giving us the spoiler that "Spike: After the Fall" is really a 4-issue introspection by Spike about the end of Season 6.

That said, and I've already admitted he's probably in my top 5 favorite as well, Spike has always felt a little bit like the Boba Fett of the Buffyverse to me -- the disproportionately hyped up and fan-obsessed secondary secondary (or in Boba's case, minor character/plot device). For me, the Buffy series was always about the original four (now plus Dawn, minus Giles, though) and the Angel series was always about Angel, Wes, and Cordy (grrrrr). There's a jump to a second tier of importance for me to Spike, Faith, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Anya, Oz, Tara, etc.
I'd say the move to UPN had more to do with ratings than any other combination of factors. They simply had less coverage and less viewers.
I couldn't imagine BtVS without Spike.

If a much loved character was killed in a bathtub for no other reason than to write the character out of the show, it would have hurt the show and fanbase.

The idea that Season 2 and 3 were the best seasons of Buffy is purely personal opinion. Not everybody thinks that they were.

My favorite Season was 5.
no ... it's not surprising ... I was just saying that it's no use trying to have that discussion here....

Naw, Whedonesque people are pretty cool about it.


I meant ... it's no use having this discussion in this specific thread. This was in response to TamaraC's

resa, is that a surprise in a thread that is all about celebrating the new comic of a very much loved character? Really?


Never meant to imply we can't have this discussion on Whedonesque... we have done in the past and will again in the future I'm sure...
Really Sandy Llama, is it that much fun to bring Spike negativity on a thread full of people excited that there is going to be a new Spike comic?

Seems like wrong place, wrong time, to me.
Unless you are simply annoyed at the joy I would suggest that there are better venues for your desired discussion.

That's just me though.
That said, and I've already admitted he's probably in my top 5 favorite as well, Spike has always felt a little bit like the Boba Fett of the Buffyverse to me -- the disproportionately hyped up and fan-obsessed secondary secondary (or in Boba's case, minor character/plot device). For me, the Buffy series was always about the original four (now plus Dawn, minus Giles, though) and the Angel series was always about Angel, Wes, and Cordy (grrrrr). There's a jump to a second tier of importance for me to Spike, Faith, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Anya, Oz, Tara, etc.

I tend to agree with this.

My favorite Season was 5.

Sure, but writing can be objectively good and bad. I know a lot of people disagree with that, but, if I'd written for Buffy or Angel... The episodes would have been awful, because I'm an awful writer. People don't like to judge creativity objectively, because it's very personal, but you totally can. My favorite season of The Wire is Season 2. Partly because that's when I joined in and because I just loved Ziggy, Nick and Frank. That's just a personal attraction to that story/those characters. That's subjective and I agree, it's just an opinion and it can't be quantified. Season 2 is certainly not as well written as Season 4, though. Season 4 is just bigger and it succeeds in matching quality episodes with it's ambition. I like Season 3 more than Season 4, too. Because I love Stringer Bell, but, again... It's not because of the writing.

I'd say the move to UPN had more to do with ratings than any other combination of factors. They simply had less coverage and less viewers.

I don't have the numbers on hand, but I'm fairly certain the decline started in Season 4 and continued in Season 5 while the show was still on the WB.

Really Sandy Llama, is it that much fun to bring Spike negativity on a thread full of people excited that there is going to be a new Spike comic?

Seems like wrong place, wrong time, to me.
Unless you are simply annoyed at the joy I would suggest that there are better venues for your desired discussion.


It's a thread about Spike, where else am I supposed to have this discussion? I'm just expressing my distaste for some of the stuff that happened as a result of the character. I actually enjoy Lynch's Spike. Like I said, though, he's a foil. He's a supporting character. He was featured far too prominently, sometimes for no reason (he's literally just there in Season 4 for a number of episodes) for a couple of seasons and the show suffered. The shows and comics were/are Buffy and Angel. Both shows were always just as much, if not more, about character as larger external plot movement. While some fans might love Spike (and he's a fine character, played by quality performer), the focus should be on those characters and their core. Those characters should never be pushed to the side and have their journey/development hindered in their own show/comic for a peripheral character.

So, I actually prefer this. Having the character spun-off into his own miniseries is better than bogging Angel down with several Spike centric issues. This is a good idea and it allows for Angel fans and Spike fans to be happy.
/runs off to talk to Milo about code that prepends "In my opinion..." to every post ;)
People don't like to judge creativity objectively, because it's very personal, but you totally can


Um, there's no arguing with that, is there?

Dude, they should have staked him right then. It's just awful. Undermining the narrative is what lead to the final seasons being so meh.


And, again, it's hard to refute this. /sarcasm

Look, The Sandy Llama, there's not a problem with you raising thoughtful questions and issues about Spike in a thread that's about . . . Spike. Key word there was "thoughtful." I get that you disagree with the story choices made after Season 4, but to just bald-facedly assert that Seasons 2 and 3 were the most critically-acclaimed, and that Spike was featured far too prominently, and so on and so on, in such extreme terms and without much explanation or context or anything is, to my mind, just provocation. Likewise your repeated insistence, without back-up, that Spike is/was a "foil" or a "supporting character." Yes he was initially, and then he clearly became something much more in the eyes of the writers and, thus, the story, whether you approved of those choices or not. Let's keep this constructive, OK?
Let's keep this constructive, OK?


Words that should be cast in your precious metal of choice and enshrined for all to see.
Sandy Llama, in my opinion you are completely wrong.
I know many Buffy fans, myself included, who never would have become as emotionally involved in the show, especially remaining so five years after cancellation, if not for Spike. He was not a foil, nor a supporting character, to us.
He became the focal point, and the most important character, to us.
That is a fact.
Well, at least you said in my opinion ;) But there are probably more diplomatic follow up phrases than "you are completely wrong". Is this horse sufficiently beaten yet?
Speaking as a guy who wrote both Angel AND Spike as leads, I'd say that they both make perfect central characters. That's not me blowing smoke, for all the work ATF is, it's certainly not because of a lack of things to do with our guys.
There, now that Lynch has metaphorically hugged both camps, can we all get along? ;)
I still think Brian's the man for saying he thought Xander could carry his own comic on one of his podcasts. My own little treatise on character significance aside, I've said on other forums that part of the beauty of the Buffyverse is that all of the characters could be the main character of their own stories... Lorne, Gunn, Dawn, Anya, anyone.
I totally agree, KoC. The characters are that well-written.
I'd love a Gwen mini-series, actually. Even set back in LA. She's easily one of my favorite guest characters. Can we start a Brian Lynch post "After the Fall" wishlist?
Xander definitely could headline. Oh dear could he.
If you write it, I'll draw it. With stick figures, but I'll draw it.
Oooh, Xander and Lorne should so have their own comic. And if not separate comics then think of the amazingness of them collaborating. Is it funny that the reason I became invested in Ats is that Lorne caught my eye (and then I saw how great the show it)? Same as with BtVS and Spike...

Saying that, Spike is my #1 but he is not my only ;)
Spike has always felt a little bit like the Boba Fett of the Buffyverse to me ...

I hereby move to have Spike equipped with a jetpack in all future appearances. Second ?

(c'mon, everything's better with jetpacks. Fact. In my opinion ;)

Ah, the objective metric for writing hypothesis. Suhweeeet ! I'm all for it, mainly because if there's an objective metric we can come up with the algorithm for Jossness and then everything will be as brilliantly written as his stuff. But will everything then just be mediocre ? Damn you algorithm of Jossness, you killed excellence ! *shakes fist*

(the thing that tickles me about "objectively good" writing is, its proponents can't show their workings for what makes it objectively good - they just know it when they see it ;)
Saje, how dare you get technically clever on us? *snap*

I, for one, wouldn’t say no the reign of mediocre if it means everything is up to Jossness proportions. But, then, the mind boggles to what could (would?) break the standard after that.

And "jetpack"? I keep thinking of Warren, Jonathan and Andrew trying to one-up Buffy with their geekness. Then I laugh.
The thing that tickles me about "objectively good" writing is, its proponents can't show their workings for what makes it objectively good - they just know it when they see it.

It's pretty clear that you can judge the quality of an essay or an article or anything that's written. My teachers certainly have. It's definitely possible judge written fiction, obviously not by the same measures that one would judge an essay/article, but it can be judged. Critics make their living doing just that. Naw, naw, all the effort that's been put into that professional and academic field is just total bullshit. Narrative, character, dialogue, how those things are developed and rendered. Definitely. If one were to write a cop show/novel and didn't know anything about law, police procedure or how cops actually talk/interact... It wouldn't be very good. Unless Joss did it, I guess. There's a reason why there are pro fiction writers, right? Because they're objectively better at it than the amateurs. Better enough to be paid. Even amongst pros, there are certain guys who are better than others. Like how Kevin Garnett is a better player than Brian Scalabrine, even though both guys are at the most elite level of professional basketball. At a certain point one can just sort of know the difference between good writing and bad writing... Or, not bad; Less good, just by reading/watching. I don't really need to do much more than a quick read through to know that Coetzee is a better writer than Dan Brown. Or that David Simon/Milch/Chase are better at, you know, TV writing than some dude who freelanced an episode Boy Meets World in 1996.

Likewise your repeated insistence, without back-up, that Spike is/was a "foil" or a "supporting character." Yes he was initially, and then he clearly became something much more in the eyes of the writers and, thus, the story, whether you approved of those choices or not.

Given that the character appears on shows called Buffy and Angel and those shows tend to revolve around those two central characters... How is it unreasonable to say that he's a supporting character? Buffy and Angel were awesome ensembles and the actors owned their roles. Still, the narrative pretty consistently stays home with those characters. Xander is my favorite character in the Buffy universe, hell, the show might have been better if it were told from his perspective. But, he's clearly a supporting character to Buffy.

As for the foil thing, well, when I look at Angel and I look at the definition of the word in the literary context Spike lines up with that almost perfectly. Doesn't he? Do I have to link to the Wikipedia entry for foil to prove my point? I didn't know I needed footnotes for my posts, dude. I'll do better in the future. I am being a dick right now, I apologize. I'm not trying to hurt feelings. I rely on sarcasm and insults and general dickishness to hide my shame.

I guess Angel could be a foil to Spike, too. In Season 5 of Angel, when I most consistently enjoyed Spike, he was clearly in the foil role. I'm pretty sure I said "In my opinion" back when I initially said that too. But, shouldn't it be clear that I endorse my own opinion given that I was the one posting it? Does that even make sense?

[ edited by The Sandy Llama on 2008-03-13 13:28 ]
Mal appeared on a show called 'Firefly', does that mean everyone but the ship is a supporting character ? ;-)

It's pretty clear that you can judge the quality of an essay or an article or anything that's written.

Uh huh cos critics never disagree ;). Technique is relatively easy to judge, everyone does this, and I agree that (most of the time at least) a basic level of technical competence is required for writing to affect people. Good writing is more than technique though and technical "rules" can be (and are) broken all the time by not just good but great writers.

Your idea also requires that we know exactly what a piece of writing is trying to achieve and that this is the same for every reader/viewer/etc. (or that people who disagree with the "objective" criteria are just wrong). An example i've used before is a joke: you can talk all you want about how a joke is poorly constructed or shallow or simplistic but if anyone genuinely laughs at it then it's funny and in at least that sense "a good joke". If someone's moved by a piece of writing how can you say that it's worth less than some other piece of writing that's supposedly objectively "better" ? Dan Brown is a by the numbers hack with little or no technical ability to speak of IMO (admittedly that's just from the first 15 or so pages of 'The Da Vinci Code') but millions of people have bought and enjoyed his books, are they somehow objectively wrong to have done so ? Will they stop enjoying them once you tell them why they shouldn't ?

At a certain point one can just sort of know the difference between good writing and bad writing ...

Strange, I could swear that's what I said you'd say ;).

Here's the thing The Sandy Llama: show us your "calculus of objective merit" and i'll be fascinated to take a look (genuinely). Presumably since it's an objective metric of greatness, its truth will be apparent in the same way gravity is and no-one will be able to find any counter-examples of great writers that didn't adhere to the calculus in its entirety or that even actively and deliberately broke its rules.

(or rather, previously great writers cos once we know what real greatness is, they may not meet the grade ;)

Or do you actually mean widely (but not universally) acknowledged subjective guidelines about what makes a writer good rather than objective, incontrovertible laws of good writing ?

edited because, among other things TSL isn't an idea (it's 'your' not "you're", Saje you doofus ;)

[ edited by Saje on 2008-03-13 14:50 ]
its truth will be apparent in the same way gravity is


Clickable joke/response
My truth is that the show peaked in season 4 when virtually every episode is a gem, and it's worst (by far) was the first season. I loved season six, and have never found any value in Season 5 (except Joyce's death, which seems SUCH a sad thing to enjoy out of an entire season). And I would be prepared to defend my POV on an episode by episode basis, showing how Joss was even nominated for a Emmy for writing 'Hush' (in Season 4) which is one kind of verification of 'good writing'). We all think we know the difference between good writing and bad writing, but it doesn't mean we agree.

Of course beating a dead horse is invariably a sign of bad writing: stating one's opinion once is always reasonable but repeating one's opinion over and over again seems to imply that one thinks their POV is the only one that matters. Just my personal opinion of course.
This thread took a weird turn.
Welcome to the Hellmouth...
Pretty soon the thread will be about either human cloning or energy policy.
Human cloning and energy policy are the same thing, right (see: 'Matrix, The' 1999) ?

Nothing weird about jetpacks though, they're the future. Just sayin' ...
Spike can vamp-jump, so he doesn't really need a jetpack, though I'm sure he'd like one (and would likely hit his head on the nearest overhang the first time he tried using it). He cannot be humanly cloned because he's no longer human. He has lots of energy and I believe his policy is to use as much of it as possible. I'm still back with my thread cannon, though -- maybe it fires tapestries? Have I covered everything in the thread yet?
... doesn't really need a jetpack ...

doesn't need ... jetpack, doesn't ... need jetpack, does ...n't need ... je - nope, there's just no way I can make that make sense. Need ? NEED ! There is no need with jetpacks, there is jet or jet not ! And "when you're a jet[pack owner] you're a jet[pack owner] all the way". This is a known thing.

(also, if he had a jetpack he could get into top secret skyscrapers - there, reckon that covers everything ;)
He cannot be humanly cloned because he's no longer human.


Ah, or could he? Would the clone end up being a human? Would it have a soul? Would it like jetpacks? What would it think about nuclear power? You're welcome, thread! ;)
"Clickable joke/response
zeitgeist | March 13, 14:36 CET"


...but they don't list the weight of the book. (scratches head)


"This thread took a weird turn.
Brian Lynch | March 13, 15:36 CET "


...and you find that strange because...? This is a Spike thread on Whedonesque, weird turns are part of the deal. IMO it is part of our coping mechanism. ;-)

As far as the Spike soul debate, I don't think the demon in Spike would have ever assumed that he would be overcome by his soul. I always figured the demon would expect it to be more of an accessory to help win Buffy. What does the demon living inside a demon understand of souls? Huh?

Oh, and though I would not expect a lot of agreement for negative statements about Spike on this thread, I would expect a good discussion if that was what one was looking for. (What do the Brits say?) Cheers. (Did I do it right?)
also, if he had a jetpack he could get into top secret skyscrapers - there, reckon that covers everything


Wait, I thought it was basements now. Didja change your mind?

Isn't cloning based on living cells? Well, seeing as vampires are animated dead bodies, cloning ala Old Friends (yeah, I read that again a couple of days ago) doesn't make sense. Unless, you're a mad scientist who works for an evil law firm, then the "law" bends to your soulless will.

Am I the only one who doesn't like jetpacks? I think brooms are more convenient and planet friendly.
Isn't cloning based on living cells?


Not necessarily. Go Google 'cloning from dead cells'.
But brooms are made from trees Mirage, which need to be cut down - jetpacks on the other hand aren't and don't. So sure, if you hate the Earth (and probably freedom and apple pie) then by all means kill its trees to make your transport. If, however, you like puppies and the first amendment then show it by using jetpacks. Remember, a vote for jetpacks is a vote for love.

(clearly not everyone is up with the latest "basement" fashions and for those laggards Spike would need to be suitably equipped)

True, vamps are made from dead tissue BUT they can heal, without scarring, which indicates there may be more going on. Cloning only needs cells that can reproduce, not necessarily living ones - it's just that the two usually go hand in hand.

And yep, 'cheers' it is newcj (sorta ;).
Yay!Yay!Yay! This has totally and completely made my day!
My broom is made from "recycled" wood, Saje. And I'm more of a kitten person.

Though I have to hand it to the regenerative vamp powers. But! How long can those cells survive if we kill the originally enchanted host? Hmmm.

Someone needs to try and clone Spike then stake him and see if his clone (soulless or souled) goes poof as well.

*blink*

On the other hand, no. Bad. Lindsey’s dead and he can’t bring back Spike.

This is surprisingly OnTopic ;) -I’ve thought about it before but just recall it now- whatever happened to the Liz’s amulet? Spike became fleshy again and we never saw it past the necromancer episode.
Mal appeared on a show called 'Firefly', does that mean everyone but the ship is a supporting character ? ;-)

Firefly is more of an ensemble piece, don't you think? It's sort of like Six Feet Under might bring us in with Nate returning home, but the Fishers are the main characters. The Wire goes away from McNulty for almost an entire season. Buffy and Angel were always about those characters. We didn't see any of Xander's family until Season 6. Giles is gone for an entire season. They're never given as much screentime, backstory, or, you know... Anything as Buffy. Because she's the main character.


Dan Brown is a by the numbers hack with little or no technical ability to speak of IMO (admittedly that's just from the first 15 or so pages of 'The Da Vinci Code') but millions of people have bought and enjoyed his books, are they somehow objectively wrong to have done so ?

No, of course not. Because not all those people are saying he's a brilliant author. Dude can write a page turner, but there's no real depth to it. You look at Coetzee's Disgrace and the Byron Opera subplot, there's clearly more to it.

Uh huh cos critics never disagree

Sure they do, but, a lot of the time the premier stuff in any medium has a consensus.

The Wire

The first couple of reviews there call it the best show ever. The others call it "literature". There are some folks who don't dig it, because it's too deliberate. I don't really mind slow, deliberate storytelling. But, it totally rewards the viewer. You could probably find a vague consensus on any of the "best" dramas on TV of the last few years.

That's probably a good starting place. Check out the acclaim from the pros. People who make a living reading books, watching TV shows and films, people who have studied these things for decades and know more about it then the average person. Then, check it out yourself. Then, discuss it with other people who have actually read/seen the work and other significant works in the genre/medium. You can't have a "best hour-long drama ever" discussion with someone if they've never seen The Wire, Deadwood, The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Hill Street Blues, Homicide, Slings and Arrows, The Shield or any of the best shows the medium has to offer. It's much easier to be do this with TV, given that there haven't been a ton of great dramatic series at this point. I've seen plenty of folks bash television, but they've never actually seen any of those shows. All that stuff would be key.

I just want to reiterate that there's no malice on my part. I'm just enjoying the back and forth. I'll take it to email if that's preferable.

[ edited by The Sandy Llama on 2008-03-13 22:27 ]

[ edited by The Sandy Llama on 2008-03-13 22:34 ]
Nope, malice never occurred to me TSL. Maybe a little bit of subconscious elitism though ;).

You're still talking about the critical consensus and broad agreement as if that ever meant "correct" or even "good" - even Shakespeare wasn't always universally acclaimed by critics.

Let me broaden it out a bit and ask you how you objectively define good writing ? Is it technique ? Is it how much it moves its readers/viewers ? Conciseness ? Metaphorical ingenuity ? Observational astuteness ? Fun ? Whether it provokes thought ? Space battles ? Quality of sex scenes ? Number of books sold (in either direction) ?

Because I guarantee that I can find someone that disagrees and the issue I have with your position is, as far as you're concerned, they're just wrong. No matter how much they've been changed or touched or inspired by a piece of writing, you still feel qualified to call it "bad" as if the aim of writing isn't to change or touch or inspire people, as if it's to meet some objective criteria of "goodness", presumably agreed upon by a committee of people who really know what books or TV scripts are for.

I suspect your definition of good writing is going to be "I know it when I see it" and that's fine, I agree. BUT as long as there are other people who consider different writing to be good when they see it then it's all surely subjective, not objective at all ?

ETA: And sorry if I miss points you've made, i'm reading your posts with my eyes half-shut because I haven't watched 'The Wire', 'Six Feet Under', 'The Shield' etc. (yet in some cases).

[ edited by Saje on 2008-03-14 12:05 ]
Woah, I didn't look at this thread yesterday and now there's Spike-bashing, jetpacks, cell cloning and omfg, did someone say that Lindsey was dead? *la la la* Some of us live in De Nile, ya know!

The Sandy Llama-There may be good writing and there may be bad writing but the thing of it is, no matter which one a piece of work is, there's always someone out there who's going to appreciate it.

Writing issues aside...really, all I can find to add to this discussion is...

Han shot first!
Dude, Saje, Six Feet Under. I got the complete series boxset for Christmas, and it's one of the shiniest gifts I've ever been bestowed.

The first season of The Wire is also one of the best things I've ever seen, but I've yet to see the others.
Spike uses a chain in the first issue, too. It's pretty neat.

That may have me buying this one, actually.
Dude, Saje, Six Feet Under. I got the complete series boxset for Christmas, and it's one of the shiniest gifts I've ever been bestowed.

It's on my list UpC (apart from anything else, my sister raves about it).

Also bought 'The Wire' season 1 about a month ago but haven't watched it yet.
Let me broaden it out a bit and ask you how you objectively define good writing ? Is it technique ? Is it how much it moves its readers/viewers ? Conciseness ? Metaphorical ingenuity ? Observational astuteness ? Fun ? Whether it provokes thought ? Space battles ? Quality of sex scenes ? Number of books sold (in either direction)


You’d have to take into account that all works of art are different. So, really, the only way to objectively analyze art (in this case, written art) would be to determine the intent of the author. Then, measure how successful he/she/they were in achieving that. The reason folks call The Wire the best hour-long drama ever is because it’s the most ambitious series to ever air. It manages to match it’s ambition with a brilliant product. A ton of series (look at the final season of The Dead Zone for a perfect, recent example) are just on the air to keep actors/creative people/crew fed. They aim low and achieve less. They don’t really have any artistic ambition/integrity, because it’s invariably abandoned when the show is faced with the prospect of cancellation. All the great works of written art are incredibly fucking ambitious, King Lear went against the happy ending that came from its source material to do something much more artistically interesting. That’s it, really.

Buffy and Angel both definitely have artistic merit. No doubt. From Season 2 onward, and I think Minear even flat out admitted this, they tried to make Angel novelic. It turned out to be a better show than Buffy because of that. I think there is something about Buffy. It’s a special show. The combination of dialogue, genre/sci-fi/horror stuff, the humor, the soap elements all comes together to form something awesome. It turns a part of my brain on in a really significant way.

I just don’t think the actual product matches it, for the most part. “Innocence” is probably the best episode of the show, because it’s really an awesome, ambitious storytelling moment and it brings home everything the show was ever intended to be about. From then, on through “Graduation Day” the show is pretty brilliant (though there are a few clunkers, “Killed By Death”, “Go Fish” (I love Fury, but still) and “Gingerbread” among others just don‘t work). The Initiative, Adam, Glory, The Nerds, The First, none of them are as consistently interesting or well written as Spike/Angel/Dru in Season 2 or The Mayor in Season 3. Adam is awful. Wasn't his story pushed forward because the actress who played Maggie bailed? Regardless. I’m not deriding the later seasons, really. They're all right. Just not as good. Tara’s death is jarringly brilliant. The overall quality of Season 6 doesn’t really match that one moment, though. I could go on, but I'd probably just piss people off and get bogged down. This whole section has not contributed to the point I'm trying to make. Still.

I agree with what several posters have said. Everything, regardless of it's level of acclaim, has adherents. That's cool, I don't begrudge anyone of that. I have friends, even though I'm objectively a dick. For some folks, One Tree Hill is probably the best show ever. That show makes no critical "best" lists. It's not really discussed or mentioned by the TV elitists I congregate with on the internet. It doesn't appear to have any artistic ambition. I haven't seen enough of it to call it "bad", but it's certainly not really noteworthy or "good" in any way. Still, a few folks love it, millions consistently watch it. They like it, that's cool.

Tens of millions of people in America voted for Bush twice. Probably for subjective, bullshit "Seems like he'd be a good guy to have a beer with" or "He's not a nerd/stiff/phony like the other guy" reasons. Even though, objectively, Bush? Total douche. Terrible candidate. Back in 2000, just look at his actual stance on issues. He was always a favorite of the tax-cutting, far right psychos. He backed away from his own father to get their approval. Voted against the Wild Card in Major League Baseball cause he thought it would be bad for the game. Further douche proof. Yet... Right? That's pretty much the whole point. People believe stupid bullshit for a variety of stupid, bullshit reasons. That's where the value of objective criticism comes in. Logic jump, you're probably saying? Naw, dude, just think about it. And, yes, art (especially written art, which I have a huge soft spot for) is just as important and open for objective criticsm as politics. Art is key.

[ edited by The Sandy Llama on 2008-03-15 14:54 ]

[ edited by The Sandy Llama on 2008-03-15 14:54 ]
None of what you mention is objective criticism though TSL, it's just subjective criticism that a lot of people happen to agree with. And are you then saying that if an author completely fails to achieve their own personal intent then their work is worthless ? So the opinions of the people consuming it are similarly worthless because what I get from it and what he or she wanted me to get from it doesn't match ?

No, i'm sure you'd say since you seem like a decent person that doesn't want to be attached to that sort of opinion BUT that's what follows from any claim on the objective worth of art. Some people (possibly even the author) apparently know what I should be getting from a piece of art and if I disagree, i'm wrong. Well, bollocks more like ;).

People believe stupid bullshit for a variety of stupid, bullshit reasons. That's where the value of objective criticism comes in.

Nope, don't agree. That's where the value of science comes in - it tells us about the objective world around us in ways we can measure and check for correctness. Criticism though, is just opinion - it might be variously informed opinion (and the respect with which we treat it correspondingly varied) but at the end of the day that's all it is. The only value it has (to me, a "consumer" of art) is as a guideline towards what I might like, towards what might touch/inspire/change me (or even just be fun). There are no "stupid bullshit" reasons for being moved by a piece of art because it's different for everyone - unlike the economy, there's no objective way to measure e.g. your enjoyment against mine and to therefore elevate one over the other.

Some people are deeply uncomfortable with the idea that their opinion is just that, an opinion, neither right nor wrong (and, as someone that in other spheres likes nice, black and white answers, I have some sympathy with that view) and so arises this "objective criticism" idea i.e. that some opinions aren't just opinions, that they're actually "correct" in the same way maths can be. I say there's no benchmark for art "out there", no external yardstick we can hold each book or painting or TV show up against to see if it measures up, there's just us and what we get from it.
Heads up - If anyone wants to know- I just received an email from my supplier letting me know that "Spike : After the fall" will be a completely series and should be ordered seperately.

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