Discuss Angel: After The Fall #5 - AtS

I still have a couple more hours before my shop opens. I'll chime in after I've read it. Super excited!

I read it. It's whatever.

Thanks for spoiling it Brian.

Wow, Brian, here I am, waiting patiently for the Trade, and you go and RUIN EVERYTHING!!!! When will these Whedonistos let the rest of us have some fun????

VerseRoamer | March 19, 13:57 CET

"Aware"? ARE YOU REALLY?

HWT | March 19, 14:11 CET

LOVED the dinosaur, loved the group fight scenes. Really enjoyed the whole issue. Laughed out loud at Lorne's "explanation" of the good guys showing up. And the T-Rex's "Are you high?"? Hysterical.

And yes Brian, you are extremely cruel.

On a side note, my shop didn't order Everybody's Dead for me like I asked them to. I think they should be punished somehow...

[ edited by sunnydalegirl on 2008-03-19 19:53 ]

sunnydalegirl | March 19, 14:13 CET

Amazing issue. Everything I'd hoped for.

But I must say that Brian is very, very cruel. If it weren't for the fact that he must finish what he's started, I would seriously be trying to melt his brain with the telepathic powers I know my mind must possess on some hidden level.

Just kidding Brian. Sorta.

d_gryphon | March 19, 14:37 CET

I have the issue too.Cruel cliffhanger ending.

Buffyfantic | March 19, 15:07 CET

Did anyone else see the Jay and Silent Bob cameo in this issue? It's in the top panel on the second page.

crazygolfa | March 19, 15:24 CET

Great issue!

Still don't know what's up with the mystery man on the cover, though. WTF! If it is Groo, why does he look nothing like he's drawn in the book?

dingoes8 | March 19, 15:43 CET

I see it now that you pointed it out.

ETA

The mystery man on the cover is Groo.Brian explained what happened with the cover over on his blog.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-03-19 20:50 ]

Buffyfantic | March 19, 15:43 CET

Okay... How was Lorne able to get drunk? Didn't he say, back in Season 2 or 3, that he was incapable of getting drunk? It was something along the lines of "Man, I wish I could get drunk."

And did anyone else have a problem with any of the artwork? The first time Wesley sees Illyria, the panel of his face looked...odd. Like he instantaneously transformed into a different person. Just sayin'.

[ edited by QuanticoMVP on 2008-03-19 21:04 ]

QuanticoMVP | March 19, 15:56 CET

Brian, you always get me convinced that a specific thing is going to happen... then I'm wrong... and then what happens is way cooler anyway :)

That was intense. That was best-Angel-episode-ever without being an episode.

KingofCretins | March 19, 16:07 CET

Ohhhh. I see now. That makes sense. Still an awesome cover, though.

I never really liked barbarian Groo in the show because I think the clean-cut look worked better for Mark Lutz the actor. But comics are about variety and interesting images, so it works to keep him with the warrior look.

dingoes8 | March 19, 16:08 CET

I loved this! Big epic fight scene, with our gang all working together (and the threat of Gunn viewing from above). I actually teared up (I'm getting awfully sentimental these days, I really love these characters) when Angel realized he didn't have to ask for help, and again when Spike explained about Lorne's "if we're not with those we care about, its not ever going to be right". And then Illyria turns into Fred the second she sees Wesley! How sweet is that?! *sob*

embers | March 19, 16:29 CET

The Jay and Silent Bob cameo is awesome!

mossoholic | March 19, 16:35 CET

This issue was obviously amazing. Does anyone know when the first issue of First Night comes out? I didn't think it was until next month, but at the end of the issue with the preview for First Night it says it begins March 2008.

mossoholic | March 19, 16:38 CET

The d__n thing's OUT already? Sheesh! *grin

DaddyCatALSO | March 19, 16:59 CET

Somebody on SlayAlive.com said First Night #1 would come out April 2nd, but I'm not sure. I hope it's true, but gossip does not equal fact. We'll have to wait and see...

It's almost March

[ edited by d_gryphon on 2008-03-19 22:04 ]

d_gryphon | March 19, 17:04 CET

Say what you want about Urru's likenesses, but the last page is dead-on.

CowboyCliche | March 19, 17:18 CET

I think the art in this issue was the best so far. The color was clean and bright yet retained the darkness it needed and the drawings were wonderful.

menomegirl | March 19, 17:55 CET

Does anybody know why Angel is shaving with a bowl of Fruity Pebbles?

Randy Giles | March 19, 18:09 CET

It does look like Fruity Pebbles. ;) I have no idea what's in the bowl but I'd assumed it was full of water for him to rinse his razor blade off while he's shaving. From the looks of things where he's standing, it looks like running water might be a problem.

menomegirl | March 19, 18:18 CET

Could just be he's conserving water -- LA always has all kinds of conservation problems.

KingofCretins | March 19, 18:24 CET

Uh huh, he could be.

Okay, I've read it three times. All I can say right now is that it's the best issue of any of these Jossverse comics that I've read so far.

menomegirl | March 19, 18:29 CET

Thanks guys!

Angel is eating while shaving. He has to hurry to make the big brawl.

Brian Lynch | March 19, 18:34 CET

Brian,

Are Jay and Silent Bob demons in the comics? Or have they always been demons, which would explain so much?

crazygolfa | March 19, 18:37 CET

Hee! Thank you for clearing that up!

Still reading. There's a lot to absorb in this issue.

menomegirl | March 19, 18:38 CET

I won't say best, not because it isn't awesome, but I just don't want to do any of the writers/artists like that. But, alongside the end of "No Future For You", it's co-favorite right now.

Brian, are those leather pants, or jeans? Because, if they're leather, it means he's really human Angelus. That's a better indicator than any gypsy curse has ever been. Angel + Leather Pants = Angelus. Prophesies and curses become moot.

KingofCretins | March 19, 18:38 CET

Jay and Silent Bob were a little easter egg that Franco put in. I love Franco.

As for what kind of pants Angel is wearing, I have to check again but I don't think they're leather. I mean, I hope they're not leather. Hell is humid enough as is.

Brian Lynch | March 19, 18:49 CET

It's not a rumor. Angel #6 will be out April 2nd, according to Brian's blog. That, Everybody's Dead #2, and Buff #13 all in one day.

patxshand | March 19, 18:50 CET

They look like jeans to me. *g* This story just keeps getting better and better. Thank you guys for clothing the ladies. :)
Groo isn't the only one who wants to see that fight. Love the shout-outs. Hell of a cliffhanger!

Glad I'm not the only one wondering why Lorne is drunk? And yes, there's some low grumbling about the zombie thing. *sighs*

And now I gotta run off.

Great issue, truly. You all did a wonderful job on it.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-03-19 23:55 ]

menomegirl | March 19, 18:54 CET

Great issue. Brian, you are indeed a cruel man, but so long as the cruelty is of this quality, its most acceptable.

Loved the bits between Wesley and the Senior Partners, the dinosaur accusing Angel of being high and of course the look when Fred and Wesley see each other. The voices continue to fit like gloves across the board.

At first I thought the mysterious figure was Cordy come back to help, but Lorne's explanation to the other demons was almost as good. Glad to see he's found a solid role on the team again.

How did Angel shave before he could see himself? Is stubble guard a vamp power I've totally forgotten about?

windmillchaser | March 19, 19:41 CET

I don't think Angel ever shaved or cut his hair when he was a vampire. The whole time he was trapped under water between seasons three and four, his hair didn't grow.

CowboyCliche | March 19, 20:05 CET

So the who hair thing is interesting. We've seen Angelus with long hair back in the day, but I guess maybe it never grows back. But 50's Angel had short hair and 70's Angel had that 'fro like cut so it had grown somewhat between the 50's and the 70's. Hmmmm... how can I sleep with pressing questions such as these?

But anyway-Great issue. Can't wait to see what the deal is with Fred. I thought we wouldn't see her but hey anything can happen in hell. Everybody's Dead was pretty good to, would suggest picking that up. I hope that we can keep some of these new comic book fans once Angel/Buffy is over!

Jelly | March 19, 20:30 CET

Thank you for the kind words about EVERYBODY'S DEAD. And ANGEL. I want a cross-over! Aurora would swoon at Spike's feet and Angel would be horrified at everyone's potty mouths.

Brian Lynch | March 19, 20:33 CET

I don't use a mirror to shave either....

I've just assumed Jossverse vampires's hair does grow, unlike Riceverse or MArvelverse or most others. But the bottom-of-the-sea thing is a puzzler then.

Yeah, I'll be casually reading for a good while yet, at least.

DaddyCatALSO | March 19, 20:41 CET

I don't casually read, I mean business when I read comics. Realllllly stern look on my face.

Brian Lynch | March 19, 20:44 CET

I'm going with this fanwank -- vampires' hair grows, but it grows very, very slowly. Much more slowly than Angel could get by with without shaving. That basically covers all the changes in hairstyle and Angel's horrible mustache in "Amends".

Our store didn't have any of the "Everybody's Dead" book.

KingofCretins | March 19, 20:45 CET

It was pretty clear to me in Season 7 Buffy that vampire hair grew - 'cause how else to explain crazy Spike's hair?
I like this one a lot, lighthearted but full of depth. Nice.
And as for shaving - maybe vampires do it a lot, cut themselves a lot and just heal quickly......

Lioness | March 19, 21:02 CET

I was getting ready to insist that Angel's hair didn't grow, that it only looked short in the 1950s because he used so much Brill Cream (a little dab'll do ya!), but Lioness has a point: nothing explains Spike's crazy hair at the beginning of Season 7! LOL

embers | March 19, 21:08 CET

Everyone knows when you FIRST get your soul back, you also get a little more hair. EVERYONE knows that.

Brian Lynch | March 19, 21:13 CET

Ah. I always knew I wasn't like EVERYONE else.

Lioness | March 19, 21:21 CET

Brian, if that's true, that monk/shaman from Season 4 of "Angel" could revolutionize the hair replacement industry by extracting and reinstalling souls.

KingofCretins | March 19, 21:31 CET

Great work Brian, this felt a lot like the Angel of old... just new.

archon | March 19, 21:32 CET

Aaaaaaagh. How can I not have seen the Romeo and Juliet motif coming as soon as we established that Wesley was his cursed ghostself? It's gotta be the oldest trick in the book and I didn't see it until the page before it was upon me.

jclemens | March 19, 22:11 CET

Okay, that explains Spike's hair. But Angel didn't just get his soul back, he just became human and has apparently had to cut his own hair and shave ever since.

NOW what, smarty pants?

However, I'll accept for now that Lorne can get drunk in Hell. Cause it's... Hell.

Come to think, being human at the wrong time AND having to groom himself much more vigorously... that would be Hell for Angel.

Loved the issue. I especially love Groo saying what we're all thinking...

[ edited by bobw1o on 2008-03-20 04:14 ]

bobw1o | March 19, 23:12 CET

Lorne getting drunk is way easier, the dude hangs out with some crazy supernatural hippies in Silverlake, we've seen them, PLUS they're in hell, certainly some kinda concoction could be made that would give even Lorne a buzz.

Brian Lynch | March 19, 23:35 CET

Brian, do those ladies that accompany Lorne around have names? I just call 'em Pink and Teal. Assuming it's not spoilery... what *are* they? Are they like the Furies?

KingofCretins | March 19, 23:52 CET

nothing explains Spike's crazy hair at the beginning of Season 7!

I thought that was just too much contact with the First Evil.

jcs | March 20, 00:22 CET

Gabrielle and Mary. That's kinda funny, I named them from their first panel, but I guess Lorne never said it. Hmmm.

Brian Lynch | March 20, 00:23 CET

Perfect. That's all I really have to say. I reacted to the end of the book the same way I would have reacted to an end of the TV show. I don't even want to share theories because I just want to see what happens next. Seriously, there wasn't one thing I didn't like about this issue.

Also, since After the Fall is canon, does that mean Jay and Bob are now part of the Whedonverse as well? Am I the only one who would love an Askewniverse and Whedonverse crossover for funsies?

I have Everbody's Dead sitting on my night table to be read hopefully before I go to class tomorrow morning.

[ edited by Nolan on 2008-03-20 05:50 ]

Nolan | March 20, 00:46 CET

"And yes, we are aware of how cruel we are"
Well as long as you realize it, I guess I don't have to punish you.

And yes, the hair/drinking issue is an issue, but I think the larger issue is that Angel is wearing jeans! I don't think he's ever worn jeans, ever. And I looked out for that, so I think I would remember. Maybe there's something different about him...
I was also happy to see Spike in his usual outfit. [enough wardrobe-talk] That finally made the comic tangible for some reason. His speech to Angel about Illyria was all so filled with truths, and Spike is so good at telling you how it is, whether you want to hear it or not.

Arabchick | March 20, 01:32 CET

Here's a little piece of action that I thought worked really well: when Spike and Angel have their talk in the middle of the battle, check out how casually they switch enemies while they're fighting. They don't even have to say anything, they're just that good at working together.

It was a little note in the script, that Franco executed perfectly.

Brian Lynch | March 20, 01:35 CET

Actually, Brian, you aren't nuts... I remember now that Lorne does call one of them "Gabs", but the other isn't ever addressed directly. That was me forgetting all about it -- I kept calling them by hair color since I only had one name.

That was a sweet move between Spike and Angel. And, Angel needs to keep rocking the flaming sword. He was so jealous that Buffy had her 'cool ax thing'. Whether it was in the script of Franco came up with it, having it smoking from the sheath was a great touch -- if you were paying attention, you knew what was coming, and if you missed it, it makes it that much cooler when re-reading.

The Angel Pants Crisis -- I really thought they were jeans but they were kinda... reflective, so I decided they must be leather. I'm all for Angel wearing jeans -- Billowy Coat Kings of Pain that aren't vampires are about as convincing as Parker Abrams.

Love using Gwen and Nina so significantly. I still hold to my personal theory that there is a Thing between Connor and Gwen. Always with the casual, intimate contact, those two.

Dragon vs. T-Rex... it's not quite Dragon vs. Illyria, but it's pretty close.

Count me among the people hoping that that's really Fred. Sharing the same body, turned back completely, whatever, but I hope it's Fred and not just Illyria doing the shape-change with amnesia, because... well, I didn't realize how emotionally affecting Fred and Wesley were until I had put the comic down for about 5 minutes, and then suddenly I was all verklempt about it... she's back but he's still dead, and noncorporeal... talk about the happy and sad at once! That said, the Illyria love for Wesley was becoming so well-formed in Season 5, that even if it's not "really" Fred, it's still going to be just this beautiful tragic love thing, or feels like it will.

KingofCretins | March 20, 02:02 CET

Fred? So many cruel, cruel, cruel AMAZING things! Arggghh! I knew it was going to end all cliffy but really, is it a surprise that I was weak, didn’t do that unoriginal patient thing and read? Nope.

Brian Lynch you are my darling! I LOVE LORNE! *hugs her green non-lord* He’s a sweetie and a babe and I really want to see what happened previously to make his anger for Angel no-more. Or settle. He’s the heart of the group *sniff* I demand a group hug. Wesley can sit in the middle so he can pretend and Gunn… well, he stays back. He scares me. He’s planning something big that needs the gang and new-gangers in a meet.

The Lords' T-rex dialogue made me laugh, seeing as I was thinking the same thing lol

Oh, and I saved this for last.

He was slurring on and about “No matter where we are, if we’re not with those we care about, it’s not never going to be right”

Anyway, he was right and I’m a champion and I – I – Besides, now you owe me.

SPIKE CARES ABOUT ANGEL!!! Nuff said. You know its true. Spider knows its true. Heck, even Brian knows its true:

Here's a little piece of action that I thought worked really well: when Spike and Angel have their talk in the middle of the battle, check out how casually they switch enemies while they're fighting. They don't even have to say anything, they're just that good at working together.

Again. I reiterate. My heart belongs to Brian right now. My heart is a fickle thing. So Joss might sweep it back up again. But as we speak, it is his. Take care of my heart, Mr. Lynch!

[ edited by Mirage on 2008-03-20 08:41 ]

Mirage | March 20, 02:41 CET

IGN has their review up so I've changed the link to their site.

Simon | March 20, 05:17 CET

Ok, I'll have to retrack my bad words about earlier stuff, this one was excellent. Good enough to reread the earlier ones to make sense of them, and certainly good enough to make me buy the comic as soon as the album comes out. This one didn't feel all that rushed like the 1-4, and that makes all the difference. Same reason I'm happy about the Spike spinoff, longer storyline there means less rushing about that storyline: instead of some 1-2 page confusing backlashes we get a real story.

Eerikki | March 20, 06:25 CET

"I don't casually read, I mean business when I read comics. Realllllly stern look on my face.
Brian Lynch | March 20, 01:44 CET

"

Sorry, Mr. Lynch, I think I'll always be too mad at Joss over "certain things" to be more than casual. Nothing against you or your own marvelous stylings here...at all!

DaddyCatALSO | March 20, 08:21 CET

I liked the whole 'it isn't really heaven if your loved ones aren't there' thing, thought that was really sweet, because it is a little nod that hell is surely slightly less hellish if your loved ones are there with you.

Good cliffhanger, but I worry about the potential retconning? I hope not, Fred's soul was destroyed, she isn't really in heaven, she just isn't anywhere, she isn't dead, she is gone. I predict some kind of time-travel since is it Illyria and all, but bringing Fred back like Willow brought Buffy back shouldn't be possible.

Loved it though, I was expecting Wesley to contact someone like Buffy (or someone cross-over-y) through Lorne's device thing and that being the cliffhanger, asking for help.

Can't wait for First Night Brian, if it really is coming out on April 2nd, that would be gold.

insistondoubt | March 20, 10:07 CET

Vortigun, I think others have raised this valid point -- Dr. Sparo is not the Oracle of Expository Truth. He could have been lying and/or just wrong.

KingofCretins | March 20, 10:39 CET

I never understood why anyone was taking any notice of what the Doc and Knox were claiming. I mean, they were bad guys with an interest in bringing back Illyria and stopping the good guys from saving Fred.

Naturally they are going to say that Fred is gone. Why wouldn't they? They are hardly going to say "Yeah, actually you can save Fred as she's still a part of Illyria. Here's how you do it!", are they?

Just seems funny to me that so many Angel fans take what the Doc said as fact, rather than what he wanted Angel and the others to think. Bad guys tell lies. ;)

Highlander | March 20, 11:08 CET

Regarding vamp hair styling and shaving . . . We know that there is an underground (so to speak) economy that services the demon and vampire sector, for instance Willie's bar. I just always figured there are demon hair salons where vampires go to get shaved and have their hair cut and styled. Since we know that vamps can be photographed, they would have used Poloroids to show the clients how they looked - nowadays digial cameras. The higher end ones nowadays probably have huge video screens and video cameras so that it's almost like looking into a mirror.

Back in the day of course, vamps had servants to do these things for them, but we live in a market economy now.

barboo | March 20, 11:09 CET

Exactly, just because one guy said where Fred "was", doesn't mean Lorne believes it, or any of us should either, you know?

I am so surprised that the hair thing is what people are talking about. Pretty neat and weird.

Brian Lynch | March 20, 12:14 CET

"Pretty neat and weird."

Four words that sum up the Whedon fanbase. Although I personally like to add a comma between the first two words. ;)

Highlander | March 20, 12:21 CET

Oh, and regarding taking what is said on the show as "fact":

"You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him."

"A vampire isn't a person at all. It may have the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over, but it's still a demon at the core, there is no halfway."

Both statements spoken by Giles. Both, I assume, spoken as what he believed to be the truth at the time. Both proven to be not entirely accurate the more we learn about the nature of vampires as the show goes on.

Sometimes what is spoken as fact is simply just opinion, even when it comes to the good guys. With that in mind it's easy to assume that anything we were told about Fred wasn't really the case.

Highlander | March 20, 12:30 CET

I suppose so, that never actually occurred to me, I just assumed it was exposition to serve the story, rather than subjective information given by a villain.

insistondoubt | March 20, 12:37 CET

I guess it didn't really come through to me why Illyria turning into Fred was supposed to be a big deal, since we'd seen her do it so many times. If this time is "different", it wasn't really clear to me. But if it is different, then that will make for some interesting storylines, so I'm looking forward to that. I guess I was just a little confused because I thought this was supposed to be bigger than the Angel being human reveal, but it didn't play out that way for me. Probably just me. I'm sure it'll make more sense when the story continues.

hacksaway | March 20, 12:40 CET

Well, I personally never said it was bigger than Angel being human. I think it's big, and it definitely leads to huge things, but Angel being human is pretty hard to top in terms of cliffhangers.

That said, the first issue back after FIRST NIGHT really deals with Fred/Illyria quite a bit. Among other things. It's a corker.

Brian Lynch | March 20, 12:58 CET

If it wasn't different, why was it the last panel in the comic book? Just to jerk us around? Somehow, I don't think so. It may not be what most people think it is, but if it is just a flashback/illusion, that's like Brian screaming "PSYCH!" at us next issue.

jclemens | March 20, 13:10 CET

We ain't jerkin' no one around.

Brian Lynch | March 20, 13:16 CET

*blinks at what Brian just said*

*shakes head*

Sorry, I was somewhere else. My brain needs some spring-cleaning...

*goes to reread issue and bask in his Greeni-ness* It's weird that I'm more grinny towards Lorne bringing the group together than the always wanted Spangel subtext...

[ edited by Mirage on 2008-03-20 18:23 ]

Mirage | March 20, 13:22 CET

I want to see how close the Fred/Illyria plot is to what little we know about Angel season 6 on T.V. and the Spike movie.Joss,the former show writers and Amy Acker gave lots of little nuggets over the past few years about what some of those plans were.Since we got the apocalyptic setting and the idea of vampire Gunn carried over from that to After The Fall,it will be interesting to see how much of the Illyria/Fred stuff is carried over too.

Buffyfantic | March 20, 13:25 CET

I would really like to see that too, like after the arc Joss could reveal what he had planned for season 6 compared to After the Fall. Unless it spoils anything that happens after After the Fall.

insistondoubt | March 20, 13:40 CET

It felt different to me. My instant reaction to that last panel, to the last two pages, really, is that this isn't just Illyria reflexively "lying" to Wesley again, this is her. I can't comprehend how or why, but that seems to be so genuinely Fred in that moment -- it's not like we've seen Illyria get all... bendy... when she's assumed Fred's identity before. This felt different.

And awesome cliffhanger, because she's got fire, claws, and teeth lined up behind her -- there are bigger priorities for the good guys just then than just wondering if it's really her.

Unless either my grasp of the usage and subtext of the english language has completely abandoned my, the writer just confirmed that -- he "ain't jerkin' no one around". We have no idea how, why, under what circumstances, or subject to what limitations, but that there is one Winifred Burkle.

KingofCretins | March 20, 14:25 CET

KingofCretins, that is what I felt too! In the past (back in AtsS5) Illyria was detached from her emotions, but they were getting stronger, not weaker. I thought her suddenly turning into Fred when she saw Wesley was like a huge emotional break-through for her: all of her grief and loss suddenly manifesting by letting Fred come out and Illyria be forced into the back ground. Obviously we'll have to wait to see how this plays out, but I felt that it was an emotional moment, and as I said before...I cried.

Wow, this disappeared from the front page quickly, were we done?

[ edited by embers on 2008-03-20 22:49 ]

embers | March 20, 15:53 CET

Wow. It never really hit me until KingOfCretins said, "We have no idea how, why, under what circumstances, or subject to what limitations, but that there is one Winifred Burkle," but...oh my God. Fred. Tears, in my eyes. Right now. Oh my God.

To be honest, when I first read the issue yesterday, I dug the hell out of it, but I didn't have a strong emotional reaction to the ending. I guess part of me was thinking that it was Illyria losing control of her emotions and appearing as Fred, while the other part (obviously clued in by the "we know how cruel we are" bit) thought that it might actually be Fred. And I guess it is. Oh my God.

So, Brian, Joss, and company...success! Weepy, weepy success!

(It would also be cruel, plus perversely hilarious--but not--if at the very beginning of issue #9, Fred were to get stomped by the T-Rex and/or other beasties. I don't know why my mind takes me to these places.)

UnpluggedCrazy | March 20, 17:52 CET

I thought this issue was excellent. I liked the photo-realistic Illyria/Wes cover a lot for starters. I thought the art, including the colouring, likenesses and the great feeling of motion, was probably the best yet in ATF. And I could hear each character's voice very distinctly. Wesley with the senior partners, Angel's public speaking nightmare... a funny issue but also spot on.

Fred's appearance - I have to admit my reaction was to think that it was still Illyria. Like others, I must have fully accepted what the Doc said in Season 5. I still found the image of her kind of a shock, and actually felt that the impact it would have on Wes was cliffhanger enough.

It wasn't until I read this thread that I considered that Illyria could have turned back into Fred for real! And if she has turned back into Fred, then I wonder if I'll be the only one who feel a very slight twinge of farewell. I love Fred, but have got used to Illyria as coming after her chronologically, and have enjoyed her character.

(....That is, if she stays back as Fred....)

[ edited by fangless on 2008-03-20 23:51 ]

fangless | March 20, 18:46 CET

Not sure when I'll get this but it seems you bastiches now have me on what Linus van Pelt called "the ol' hookeroo" for a good long time. (If this is true and if also Tara comes back at "that other company" as well I'll be offically committed even if I start hating the stories.)

DaddyCatALSO | March 20, 19:58 CET

Excellent issue. The plot thickens, and plot is best served thick, so I'm enjoying it plenty and looking forward to more.

So many questions... Did Illyria turn into Fred as a sincere emotional reaction to seeing Wesley, is it really Fred, or is it just a part of Wesley's unusual punishment? What'll happen next? Does Lorne think Fred's in heaven because can get drunk now, or were the bad guys lying about her soul being destroyed? And isn't noncorporeal spelled with an E?
Can't wait to find out.

GreatMuppetyOdin | March 20, 19:59 CET

Great issue. So well paced and plotted. Great dialogue,action,character moments, and one hell of a cliffhanger. Nothing can beat the end of issue 3 of course, but this comes pretty damn close!

Simon - would you be able to put this on the side of the front page ro continue the discussion please? Thanks!:)

angeliclestat | March 21, 07:42 CET

Y'know, Lynch built up to this cliffhanger nice and slowly, I liked it, but seeing Fred reminded me that this plotline was spoiled literally years ago - in the Season Five DVD commentary if memory serves. It was apparently always in the Season Six cards that Illyria would have given way to Fred at times, or in part, and that the Fred/Illyria/Wesley relationship would stay complicated (Illyria/Wesley was to my eye probably the best thing about the S5 final arc).

I managed to put this from my mind at some point, but upon seeing Fred my first reaction wasn't 'Oh god!' or 'Oh no!' or 'Oh awesome!' but 'Oh, I remember...' Which cuts into my ability to respond 'fairly' to this issue, since it landed mainly as a big anticlimax.

The series is getting better - issue #5 was the best yet, cheers Brian - but I'm liking it less and less over time. I just bought and read Shadow Puppets yesterday, out of curiosity, and it was a good deal stronger than After the Fall, its laboured 'canon' jokes notwithstanding. Tighter voices, more appropriate comic asides, admittedly messy and too-digressive (too-glib) final scene. But good. It moved fast as hell, like Angel #5 - but without the portentousness of After the Fall, which isn't quite coming off as smoothly as I'd hoped - and the original characters were largely excellent (I haven't read Asylum, so I find Betta George utterly boring, a sentimental inclusion by Lynch that doesn't serve any readily apparent story purpose).

God a'mighty, I don't actually like being critical, but there's something amiss with AtF. Rather than cluttering up Whedonesque, I've written about it (at ridiculous length) right here. Short version: 'there's something amiss with AtF.' :)

waxbanks | March 22, 13:01 CET

"Exactly, just because one guy said where Fred "was", doesn't mean Lorne believes it, or any of us should either, you know?"

Well, Wesley, Gunn and Angel - arguably the three with the biggest motivation for not believing this - all accepted it and laid down their plans to bring Fred back. Believe it as a reader/viewer or not, it should be noted more clearly than it has been if a central character like Lorne has a strongly different opinion on the matter without the other characters changing their mind too.

Loki | March 22, 14:25 CET

I loved this issue, I'm a little worried that just in the climax of the arc we're going back a couple of months. The artwork really improved this time so that helped and I'm going back to check for Jay and Silent Bob. I'm anxious to know how exactly is Fred back or if indeed it's Fred or just the memories that Illyria keeps from her but in the end aren't we just our memories and experiences...man, my head hurts.

luis1210 | March 25, 15:03 CET

March 19 2008