(SPOILER)
Discuss Angel: After The Fall #5.
Big cliffhanger? No doubt. Stunning revelations? More than likely. So come and tell us what you thought of the latest chapter of Angel's adventures.
Don't forget that First Night kicks off next issue.
March 19 2008
This thread has been closed for new comments.
You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.
10th Crew Member | March 19, 13:12 CET
Brian Lynch | March 19, 13:17 CET
10th Crew Member | March 19, 13:20 CET
VerseRoamer | March 19, 13:57 CET
HWT | March 19, 14:11 CET
And yes Brian, you are extremely cruel.
On a side note, my shop didn't order Everybody's Dead for me like I asked them to. I think they should be punished somehow...
[ edited by sunnydalegirl on 2008-03-19 19:53 ]
sunnydalegirl | March 19, 14:13 CET
But I must say that Brian is very, very cruel. If it weren't for the fact that he must finish what he's started, I would seriously be trying to melt his brain with the telepathic powers I know my mind must possess on some hidden level.
Just kidding Brian. Sorta.
d_gryphon | March 19, 14:37 CET
Buffyfantic | March 19, 15:07 CET
crazygolfa | March 19, 15:24 CET
Still don't know what's up with the mystery man on the cover, though. WTF! If it is Groo, why does he look nothing like he's drawn in the book?
dingoes8 | March 19, 15:43 CET
ETA
The mystery man on the cover is Groo.Brian explained what happened with the cover over on his blog.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-03-19 20:50 ]
Buffyfantic | March 19, 15:43 CET
And did anyone else have a problem with any of the artwork? The first time Wesley sees Illyria, the panel of his face looked...odd. Like he instantaneously transformed into a different person. Just sayin'.
[ edited by QuanticoMVP on 2008-03-19 21:04 ]
QuanticoMVP | March 19, 15:56 CET
That was intense. That was best-Angel-episode-ever without being an episode.
KingofCretins | March 19, 16:07 CET
I never really liked barbarian Groo in the show because I think the clean-cut look worked better for Mark Lutz the actor. But comics are about variety and interesting images, so it works to keep him with the warrior look.
dingoes8 | March 19, 16:08 CET
embers | March 19, 16:29 CET
mossoholic | March 19, 16:35 CET
mossoholic | March 19, 16:38 CET
DaddyCatALSO | March 19, 16:59 CET
It's almost March
[ edited by d_gryphon on 2008-03-19 22:04 ]
d_gryphon | March 19, 17:04 CET
CowboyCliche | March 19, 17:18 CET
menomegirl | March 19, 17:55 CET
Randy Giles | March 19, 18:09 CET
menomegirl | March 19, 18:18 CET
KingofCretins | March 19, 18:24 CET
Okay, I've read it three times. All I can say right now is that it's the best issue of any of these Jossverse comics that I've read so far.
menomegirl | March 19, 18:29 CET
Angel is eating while shaving. He has to hurry to make the big brawl.
Brian Lynch | March 19, 18:34 CET
Are Jay and Silent Bob demons in the comics? Or have they always been demons, which would explain so much?
crazygolfa | March 19, 18:37 CET
Still reading. There's a lot to absorb in this issue.
menomegirl | March 19, 18:38 CET
Brian, are those leather pants, or jeans? Because, if they're leather, it means he's really human Angelus. That's a better indicator than any gypsy curse has ever been. Angel + Leather Pants = Angelus. Prophesies and curses become moot.
KingofCretins | March 19, 18:38 CET
As for what kind of pants Angel is wearing, I have to check again but I don't think they're leather. I mean, I hope they're not leather. Hell is humid enough as is.
Brian Lynch | March 19, 18:49 CET
patxshand | March 19, 18:50 CET
Groo isn't the only one who wants to see that fight. Love the shout-outs. Hell of a cliffhanger!
Glad I'm not the only one wondering why Lorne is drunk? And yes, there's some low grumbling about the zombie thing. *sighs*
And now I gotta run off.
Great issue, truly. You all did a wonderful job on it.
[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-03-19 23:55 ]
menomegirl | March 19, 18:54 CET
Loved the bits between Wesley and the Senior Partners, the dinosaur accusing Angel of being high and of course the look when Fred and Wesley see each other. The voices continue to fit like gloves across the board.
At first I thought the mysterious figure was Cordy come back to help, but Lorne's explanation to the other demons was almost as good. Glad to see he's found a solid role on the team again.
How did Angel shave before he could see himself? Is stubble guard a vamp power I've totally forgotten about?
windmillchaser | March 19, 19:41 CET
CowboyCliche | March 19, 20:05 CET
But anyway-Great issue. Can't wait to see what the deal is with Fred. I thought we wouldn't see her but hey anything can happen in hell. Everybody's Dead was pretty good to, would suggest picking that up. I hope that we can keep some of these new comic book fans once Angel/Buffy is over!
Jelly | March 19, 20:30 CET
Brian Lynch | March 19, 20:33 CET
I've just assumed Jossverse vampires's hair does grow, unlike Riceverse or MArvelverse or most others. But the bottom-of-the-sea thing is a puzzler then.
Yeah, I'll be casually reading for a good while yet, at least.
DaddyCatALSO | March 19, 20:41 CET
Brian Lynch | March 19, 20:44 CET
Our store didn't have any of the "Everybody's Dead" book.
KingofCretins | March 19, 20:45 CET
I like this one a lot, lighthearted but full of depth. Nice.
And as for shaving - maybe vampires do it a lot, cut themselves a lot and just heal quickly......
Lioness | March 19, 21:02 CET
embers | March 19, 21:08 CET
Brian Lynch | March 19, 21:13 CET
Lioness | March 19, 21:21 CET
KingofCretins | March 19, 21:31 CET
archon | March 19, 21:32 CET
jclemens | March 19, 22:11 CET
NOW what, smarty pants?
However, I'll accept for now that Lorne can get drunk in Hell. Cause it's... Hell.
Come to think, being human at the wrong time AND having to groom himself much more vigorously... that would be Hell for Angel.
Loved the issue. I especially love Groo saying what we're all thinking...
[ edited by bobw1o on 2008-03-20 04:14 ]
bobw1o | March 19, 23:12 CET
Brian Lynch | March 19, 23:35 CET
KingofCretins | March 19, 23:52 CET
I thought that was just too much contact with the First Evil.
jcs | March 20, 00:22 CET
Brian Lynch | March 20, 00:23 CET
Also, since After the Fall is canon, does that mean Jay and Bob are now part of the Whedonverse as well? Am I the only one who would love an Askewniverse and Whedonverse crossover for funsies?
I have Everbody's Dead sitting on my night table to be read hopefully before I go to class tomorrow morning.
[ edited by Nolan on 2008-03-20 05:50 ]
Nolan | March 20, 00:46 CET
Well as long as you realize it, I guess I don't have to punish you.
And yes, the hair/drinking issue is an issue, but I think the larger issue is that Angel is wearing jeans! I don't think he's ever worn jeans, ever. And I looked out for that, so I think I would remember. Maybe there's something different about him...
I was also happy to see Spike in his usual outfit. [enough wardrobe-talk] That finally made the comic tangible for some reason. His speech to Angel about Illyria was all so filled with truths, and Spike is so good at telling you how it is, whether you want to hear it or not.
Arabchick | March 20, 01:32 CET
It was a little note in the script, that Franco executed perfectly.
Brian Lynch | March 20, 01:35 CET
That was a sweet move between Spike and Angel. And, Angel needs to keep rocking the flaming sword. He was so jealous that Buffy had her 'cool ax thing'. Whether it was in the script of Franco came up with it, having it smoking from the sheath was a great touch -- if you were paying attention, you knew what was coming, and if you missed it, it makes it that much cooler when re-reading.
The Angel Pants Crisis -- I really thought they were jeans but they were kinda... reflective, so I decided they must be leather. I'm all for Angel wearing jeans -- Billowy Coat Kings of Pain that aren't vampires are about as convincing as Parker Abrams.
Love using Gwen and Nina so significantly. I still hold to my personal theory that there is a Thing between Connor and Gwen. Always with the casual, intimate contact, those two.
Dragon vs. T-Rex... it's not quite Dragon vs. Illyria, but it's pretty close.
Count me among the people hoping that that's really Fred. Sharing the same body, turned back completely, whatever, but I hope it's Fred and not just Illyria doing the shape-change with amnesia, because... well, I didn't realize how emotionally affecting Fred and Wesley were until I had put the comic down for about 5 minutes, and then suddenly I was all verklempt about it... she's back but he's still dead, and noncorporeal... talk about the happy and sad at once! That said, the Illyria love for Wesley was becoming so well-formed in Season 5, that even if it's not "really" Fred, it's still going to be just this beautiful tragic love thing, or feels like it will.
KingofCretins | March 20, 02:02 CET
Brian Lynch you are my darling! I LOVE LORNE! *hugs her green non-lord* He’s a sweetie and a babe and I really want to see what happened previously to make his anger for Angel no-more. Or settle. He’s the heart of the group *sniff* I demand a group hug. Wesley can sit in the middle so he can pretend and Gunn… well, he stays back. He scares me. He’s planning something big that needs the gang and new-gangers in a meet.
The Lords' T-rex dialogue made me laugh, seeing as I was thinking the same thing lol
Oh, and I saved this for last.
SPIKE CARES ABOUT ANGEL!!! Nuff said. You know its true. Spider knows its true. Heck, even Brian knows its true:
Again. I reiterate. My heart belongs to Brian right now. My heart is a fickle thing. So Joss might sweep it back up again. But as we speak, it is his. Take care of my heart, Mr. Lynch!
[ edited by Mirage on 2008-03-20 08:41 ]
Mirage | March 20, 02:41 CET
Simon | March 20, 05:17 CET
Eerikki | March 20, 06:25 CET
Brian Lynch | March 20, 01:44 CET
"
Sorry, Mr. Lynch, I think I'll always be too mad at Joss over "certain things" to be more than casual. Nothing against you or your own marvelous stylings here...at all!
DaddyCatALSO | March 20, 08:21 CET
Good cliffhanger, but I worry about the potential retconning? I hope not, Fred's soul was destroyed, she isn't really in heaven, she just isn't anywhere, she isn't dead, she is gone. I predict some kind of time-travel since is it Illyria and all, but bringing Fred back like Willow brought Buffy back shouldn't be possible.
Loved it though, I was expecting Wesley to contact someone like Buffy (or someone cross-over-y) through Lorne's device thing and that being the cliffhanger, asking for help.
Can't wait for First Night Brian, if it really is coming out on April 2nd, that would be gold.
insistondoubt | March 20, 10:07 CET
KingofCretins | March 20, 10:39 CET
Naturally they are going to say that Fred is gone. Why wouldn't they? They are hardly going to say "Yeah, actually you can save Fred as she's still a part of Illyria. Here's how you do it!", are they?
Just seems funny to me that so many Angel fans take what the Doc said as fact, rather than what he wanted Angel and the others to think. Bad guys tell lies. ;)
Highlander | March 20, 11:08 CET
Back in the day of course, vamps had servants to do these things for them, but we live in a market economy now.
barboo | March 20, 11:09 CET
I am so surprised that the hair thing is what people are talking about. Pretty neat and weird.
Brian Lynch | March 20, 12:14 CET
Four words that sum up the Whedon fanbase. Although I personally like to add a comma between the first two words. ;)
Highlander | March 20, 12:21 CET
"You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him."
"A vampire isn't a person at all. It may have the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over, but it's still a demon at the core, there is no halfway."
Both statements spoken by Giles. Both, I assume, spoken as what he believed to be the truth at the time. Both proven to be not entirely accurate the more we learn about the nature of vampires as the show goes on.
Sometimes what is spoken as fact is simply just opinion, even when it comes to the good guys. With that in mind it's easy to assume that anything we were told about Fred wasn't really the case.
Highlander | March 20, 12:30 CET
insistondoubt | March 20, 12:37 CET
hacksaway | March 20, 12:40 CET
That said, the first issue back after FIRST NIGHT really deals with Fred/Illyria quite a bit. Among other things. It's a corker.
Brian Lynch | March 20, 12:58 CET
jclemens | March 20, 13:10 CET
Brian Lynch | March 20, 13:16 CET
*shakes head*
Sorry, I was somewhere else. My brain needs some spring-cleaning...
*goes to reread issue and bask in his Greeni-ness* It's weird that I'm more grinny towards Lorne bringing the group together than the always wanted Spangel subtext...
[ edited by Mirage on 2008-03-20 18:23 ]
Mirage | March 20, 13:22 CET
Buffyfantic | March 20, 13:25 CET
insistondoubt | March 20, 13:40 CET
And awesome cliffhanger, because she's got fire, claws, and teeth lined up behind her -- there are bigger priorities for the good guys just then than just wondering if it's really her.
Unless either my grasp of the usage and subtext of the english language has completely abandoned my, the writer just confirmed that -- he "ain't jerkin' no one around". We have no idea how, why, under what circumstances, or subject to what limitations, but that there is one Winifred Burkle.
KingofCretins | March 20, 14:25 CET
Wow, this disappeared from the front page quickly, were we done?
[ edited by embers on 2008-03-20 22:49 ]
embers | March 20, 15:53 CET
To be honest, when I first read the issue yesterday, I dug the hell out of it, but I didn't have a strong emotional reaction to the ending. I guess part of me was thinking that it was Illyria losing control of her emotions and appearing as Fred, while the other part (obviously clued in by the "we know how cruel we are" bit) thought that it might actually be Fred. And I guess it is. Oh my God.
So, Brian, Joss, and company...success! Weepy, weepy success!
(It would also be cruel, plus perversely hilarious--but not--if at the very beginning of issue #9, Fred were to get stomped by the T-Rex and/or other beasties. I don't know why my mind takes me to these places.)
UnpluggedCrazy | March 20, 17:52 CET
Fred's appearance - I have to admit my reaction was to think that it was still Illyria. Like others, I must have fully accepted what the Doc said in Season 5. I still found the image of her kind of a shock, and actually felt that the impact it would have on Wes was cliffhanger enough.
It wasn't until I read this thread that I considered that Illyria could have turned back into Fred for real! And if she has turned back into Fred, then I wonder if I'll be the only one who feel a very slight twinge of farewell. I love Fred, but have got used to Illyria as coming after her chronologically, and have enjoyed her character.
(....That is, if she stays back as Fred....)
[ edited by fangless on 2008-03-20 23:51 ]
fangless | March 20, 18:46 CET
DaddyCatALSO | March 20, 19:58 CET
So many questions... Did Illyria turn into Fred as a sincere emotional reaction to seeing Wesley, is it really Fred, or is it just a part of Wesley's unusual punishment? What'll happen next? Does Lorne think Fred's in heaven because can get drunk now, or were the bad guys lying about her soul being destroyed? And isn't noncorporeal spelled with an E?
Can't wait to find out.
GreatMuppetyOdin | March 20, 19:59 CET
Simon - would you be able to put this on the side of the front page ro continue the discussion please? Thanks!:)
angeliclestat | March 21, 07:42 CET
I managed to put this from my mind at some point, but upon seeing Fred my first reaction wasn't 'Oh god!' or 'Oh no!' or 'Oh awesome!' but 'Oh, I remember...' Which cuts into my ability to respond 'fairly' to this issue, since it landed mainly as a big anticlimax.
The series is getting better - issue #5 was the best yet, cheers Brian - but I'm liking it less and less over time. I just bought and read Shadow Puppets yesterday, out of curiosity, and it was a good deal stronger than After the Fall, its laboured 'canon' jokes notwithstanding. Tighter voices, more appropriate comic asides, admittedly messy and too-digressive (too-glib) final scene. But good. It moved fast as hell, like Angel #5 - but without the portentousness of After the Fall, which isn't quite coming off as smoothly as I'd hoped - and the original characters were largely excellent (I haven't read Asylum, so I find Betta George utterly boring, a sentimental inclusion by Lynch that doesn't serve any readily apparent story purpose).
God a'mighty, I don't actually like being critical, but there's something amiss with AtF. Rather than cluttering up Whedonesque, I've written about it (at ridiculous length) right here. Short version: 'there's something amiss with AtF.' :)
waxbanks | March 22, 13:01 CET
Well, Wesley, Gunn and Angel - arguably the three with the biggest motivation for not believing this - all accepted it and laid down their plans to bring Fred back. Believe it as a reader/viewer or not, it should be noted more clearly than it has been if a central character like Lorne has a strongly different opinion on the matter without the other characters changing their mind too.
Loki | March 22, 14:25 CET
luis1210 | March 25, 15:03 CET