Whedonesque : Comments on 15864 : (SPOILER) Georges Jeanty writes to SlayAlive about the upcoming arc.

So we have Oz, Dracula and Riley (ewwww I really hope not because A) Hated him so so so so much and B) Joss would really be overdoing it with the ressurections!!!) But more Satsu and Comedy Dawn? I'm all with that!

bennyboi91 | March 23, 17:17 CET

Why the Riley hatred? We are about to finish up S7 and this time through I really liked him. I was lukewarm towards him the first time through, too. I would prefer Dawn do something to move her story and the whole arc forward instead of just being comedy relief (see? I actually appreciated her more this time as well :)).

zeitgeist | March 23, 17:20 CET

Nice. I was all up with the Riley theory the last time we discussed about this.

Numfar PTB | March 23, 18:36 CET

bennyboi91, resurrections? Riley Finn was still alive, so far as we know, at the end of Season Seven. He and Sam left via helicopter in Season Six, he relayed orders from afar to the military team on site in "The Killer in Me" in Season Seven and that's the last we've heard of him so far.

Shapenew | March 23, 20:31 CET

Shapenew, sorry I didn't mean it like resurrections! I just meant that he is bringing too many characters back eg. Amy, Ethan Rayne, Warren, Dracula and now Riley??? Warren completely spoilt the first arc for me and would've much preferred Rack even though he is another character from the series. But these characters are really unnecessary and I believe Joss is just bringing them back for attention. Sorry to be blunt and harsh but this is what I believe. Stop dwelling the past and move forward.

bennyboi91 | March 23, 20:51 CET

I agree with bennyboi that old characters should not be visiting the season. We want new characters and we got them (Satsu, Renee and Leah) so I wish Joss spends more time explaining them and giving Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles storylines like every season did (except for S7)

Sosa Lola | March 23, 22:09 CET

I like the return of the older characters. It's bringing a big payoff for the series' very rich mythology in my opinion.

Riley was at the top of my list as far as Twilight suspects went.

But here's one most people may not have considered: Pike.

You know the ally/love interest from the movie? We never discovered what happened to him. It's been many years and he would know the slayer all too well.

That would be a nice twist in my opinion.

Your thoughts?

Neo-Prodigy | March 23, 23:46 CET

I'm just not buying the Twilight identity he tossed out there. I think he's joking.

Sunfire | March 23, 23:48 CET

Your thoughts?

That's funny. I was just this week wondering if Joss would do something to integrate some version of the movie's plotline into the series canon more officially.

Then again, if (and I stress "if") it turns out that Twilight's identity is what Robin was referring to with her "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." remark, someone from the movie plot doesn't work.

Although, you know, Xander would. ;)

I'm just not buying the Twilight identity he tossed out there. I think he's joking.

Read the intro to the remarks. It's indicated that when he says things like "Riley (as Twilight), huh..." he is responding to having had speculation about Twilight mentioned to him. He's not pulling Riley out of thin air, he's responding to a mention of Riley.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-03-23 20:55 ]

theonetruebix | March 23, 23:49 CET

For Xander to be the traitor, assuming there's not a "forgot Warren was dead" plot flaw, he'd have to be complicit in a plot to *kill* Buffy. We know this because the mole's report in 8.09 featured, most relevantly, that Buffy was alive. And further, even if the traitor didn't realize that before 8.09, after 8.09 and 8.11, it's obvious that the plot *is* to kill Buffy. So there'd be no way to play the "he had a good reason" type thing.

For Xander to be the traitor, he'd either have to be brainwashed (again, the buttmonkey), or be outright evil (in which case, we the audience are the buttmonkey).

KingofCretins | March 24, 00:29 CET

Read the intro to the remarks.

Gah. Missed that, thanks.

Sunfire | March 24, 00:34 CET

He's not pulling Riley out of thin air, he's responding to a mention of Riley.

Exactly.

Riley was never on my list. He may have been married to Sam but he still cared about Buffy. And frankly, I simply cannot imagine any circumstances that would lead to him being an evil persona.

I'd love to see him back, though. I liked Riley very much.

menomegirl | March 24, 00:35 CET

We know this because the mole's report in 8.09 featured, most relevantly, that Buffy was alive.

Immediately followed by Twilight's response, which was that Buffy wasn't the target. Roden and Genevieve were.

theonetruebix | March 24, 00:36 CET

Which was news to the handler, and therefore presumably news to the mole, too.

KingofCretins | March 24, 00:41 CET

The point is, Twilight was not complicit in a plot to kill Buffy, because there wasn't one. The handler (and presumably the mole) simply THOUGHT that was the point of the operation.

So if Twilight were Xander, he was not complicit in a plot to kill Buffy. And your point was that he would have been, but Twilight's own statements prove otherwise.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-03-23 21:44 ]

theonetruebix | March 24, 00:43 CET

So if Twilight were Xander, he was not complicit in a plot to kill Buffy.

True. He did beat Buffy and Satsu up pretty badly, though. I think he is most likely willing to kill Buffy and those close to her.

it's obvious that the plot *is* to kill Buffy.

I don't think it's at all obvious what Twilight's true motives are. We've seen him talk to people working for/with him, but it's possible his statements there are misleading.

For Xander to be the traitor, he'd either have to be brainwashed (again, the buttmonkey), or be outright evil (in which case, we the audience are the buttmonkey).

I like misleads. It is always possible that Xander is evil. Highly unlikely, but always possible. You seem to view plot points more absolutely than I think they are intended to be. The fun with Buffy, in my opinion, is all the twists, turns, and gradations. Buffy writers tend to not just think outside the box, but think about the box, and often they make you think the box has different dimensions and shapes than it really does in the end. I'm not ruling much out, just yet.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-03-23 21:57 ]

Sunfire | March 24, 00:56 CET

For the record, I don't actually believe Twilight is Xander, but I do think they will play the possibility at some point. Admittedly, however, I think that mainly because either Twilight being Xander or playing with the mislead that he is would explain the mask without eyeholes. If it had eyeholes, you'd either see (if he's Xander) one eye still blocked anyway which would spoil the reveal, or (if he isn't) two eyes which would make the mislead impossible.

theonetruebix | March 24, 01:00 CET

If I was Xander and I had the magic mojo to fly and the superstrength to beat Buffy up so easily, I'd have a new eye hiding under that patch. And then there'd be a dramatic reveal of my two-eyed evilness. It'd be tear-worthy. ;)

For the record, I don't think it's Xander either. But I'll admit to being thoroughly confused by everything new we learn about Twilight: masked and human-looking, working with demons and the military, knows Buffy well, overheard her conversations with Willow, manipulates Faith and Giles to kill Gigi and Roden, supposedly wants to end all magic, but seems to be using magic... it's all very intriguing, but I don't think it points in any particular direction yet.

The maskedness is interesting though. It certainly keeps us guessing, which is likely the main reason for it, but it also suggests he's hiding his identity from people in the story, too.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-03-23 22:19 ]

Sunfire | March 24, 01:19 CET

I'm not certain if the close, unexpected person prophesized to betray Buffy is the same person as Twilight. (Maybe someone will be faced with a choice to save Buffy or someone else from Twilight, and they'll not choose Buffy.)

Or Twilight is something from Buffy's mind, pulled out of her subconscious during a dream invoked by a spell. And thus knows everything Buffy knows. I know, I'm drinkin' the kool aid right?

[ edited by GrrrlRomeo on 2008-03-24 00:02 ]

GrrrlRomeo | March 24, 02:04 CET

I'm just imagining Joss reading all of our comments about Twilight's mystery and cackling gleefully. Hey, maybe Twilight is Joss. Oh, wait. Too much bulging muscle under that waistplate.

Perseo | March 24, 02:53 CET

That's the fun part isn't it? I like being wrong about a mystery more than I like being right.

GrrrlRomeo | March 24, 03:05 CET

I don't really even contemplate that Xander could be Twilight... unless Joss is going to explain that he is capable of bi-location somehow. Xander was in the BHC coordinating various Slayer missions at the *same time* that Twilight was hovering over Buffy and Alpha Team in 8.01. Further, Xander is still in the BHC in 8.09, and would need some kind of explanation for having wandered off to Wyoming for a day or two in order to meet with Lt. Molter (since we see Twilight at the Devil's Tower).

And another logical problem... if Xander was Twilight, why would he need to *get* a report from a "mole"? Why even bother with a pretense of one?

No, the whole scenario would turn on Xander being an ordinary traitor... a *minor* villain, not even as dignified as Harth.

Riley I could at least buy. There have already been a couple fairly random references to him. There's the military tie. There's knowing Buffy. As for justification... short version, Sam might have been killed off in a demon fight, and Riley got pushed over the edge. Maybe she even got killed by a rogue, or someone like Dana. So he loses it, decides the world is better off without magic, and he'll either make Buffy understand her 'mistake' or go through her if necessary.

KingofCretins | March 24, 04:17 CET

Yeah as I said, I don't think he is. But none of those particular things would prevent them from playing the mislead, however, since none of the main characters know that Twilight was in X place while Xander was in Y.

theonetruebix | March 24, 05:02 CET

Xander being accused of being Twilight would be interesting, but I'm not sure very pointed... *we* know it ostensibly can't be him, after all.

I'd be pretty annoyed if Xander were actually being turned into a *bad guy*. I mean, Anya turned demon again from bitterness, but never really put herself at direct cross aims with the Scoobies until "Selfless", where it may have been intentional. Willow tried to kill them all, fueled by grief, Buffy tried to kill them all out of delusion.

There's a school of thought that it's Xander's turn, but what a dubious honor for him to be the one, defined for 11 years to the audience as the Loyal guy, to turn traitor, and be the *only* one of them to go evil in a way he can't come back from. I don't think that's a story that needs telling, frankly. And if that's the only reason that he's been reelevated to the plot importance he hasn't seen since, oh, Season 2, and the only reason that we for him he's our favorite (tied with Buffy for me) character are getting this treat is that he's going to be buttmonkeyed in ways that never hath a Harris been buttmonkeyed before, it'll definitely be a bummer.

KingofCretins | March 24, 05:38 CET

Georges is good at being cryptic now!

When he says 'vampire' .. I guess he just means Dracula, but I hope maybe Angel. Guess he might fit better with Spike in a different arc.

alexa | March 24, 07:01 CET

I don't think it's Xander. And I think Xander already had his turn summoning a dancing demon, trying to kill Spike and not telling Buffy that Willow was trying to re-ensoul Angel. I think that's as "bad" as Xander gets.

GrrrlRomeo | March 24, 07:21 CET

Well, far be it from me to lobby in any way in favor of Xander not having punched his ticket, but only one of those pushes anywhere beyond, at best, moral ambivalence. Trying to kill Spike because he slept with Anya was petty, but it wasn't *evil*. Soulless vampires, no matter who they are sleeping with, are pretty much kill-at-discretion, aren't they? And the lie in "Becoming", Joss himself put that down on the side of 'good thing' in an interview years back. I think it was the right idea -- keep the spell where it belongs, as plan B. Don't let Buffy subconsciously turn it into plan A.

Agree with you on this, though -- that's about as "bad" as Xander gets. I'd sooner believe that Buffy would experiment by organizing castle-wide orgies and declare herself "Buffy Queen of Scots" than that Xander would ever lose such regard for her that he'd sell her out to a man who *he knows* wants to kill her. I still can't shake the image of Jo Chen's cover for the "The Long Way Home" trade paperback. They can fight, they can argue, they can fall in and out of love with others or themselves, but those are the three that always have to be side by side at the end of the day.

KingofCretins | March 24, 08:01 CET

I'd never buy the Xan-Man as a Judas. I hope it isn't Riley cause i hate him.

I think the Master finally found a way to come back. Or Ben, i hated Glory's other half and with my luck, he has also cheated death somehow.

pongluver | March 24, 08:22 CET

Ben occurred to me as well. He could blame both sides -- demons/magic and the slayer(s) -- for what became of his life, and death.

theonetruebix | March 24, 08:26 CET

King: I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't think the things I listed that Xander did were particularly bad, let alone evil. That's why I put "bad" in quotation marks...it's a matter of perception/opinion.

Twilight's motives aside (which are unclear to me anyway), I base my belief Twilight is not Xander on Twilight's dialogue. For instance, I can't hear Xander saying, "Understand this, girl." to Buffy.

GrrrlRomeo | March 24, 09:44 CET

I like the Ben theory. Partially because it doesn't involve Xander being evil, and partially because it's cool and unexpected. ...y'know, at least until now.

But I'm trying to speculate as little as possible. I dread guessing right where these things are concerned.

Jobo | March 24, 09:51 CET

While i doubt it's Xander, it's not impossible. Xander has shown his dark side plenty of times like every other character.

Vergil | March 24, 10:38 CET

Why do we assume that Twilight is male? Is there a distinct lack of girl parts portrayed?

TamaraC | March 24, 10:49 CET

Well, we do not see any girl parts, and Twilight is definitely looking manly, so rationally I'd go with, yes, he has gonads.

BUT knowing Joss.. yeah, I can see him going with the reversed gender angle for the surprise factor..

Perseo | March 24, 12:58 CET

The link doesn't work for me. *a single tear falls down my cheek* It sounds really interesting, though!

linnea | March 24, 15:07 CET

I don't know how Georges could have made Twilight more unambiguously male without having him fly around with his junk hanging out, actually. And if it was a glamour... why wear a mask? I'd put him between 6'3" and 6'5", which is another reason the imagination goes to the Riley place.

Y'know who Twilight *is* (not literally, but essentially), he's the Operative. He reminds me of nothing so much as the Operative.

KingofCretins | March 24, 15:40 CET

Well, we do not see any girl parts, and Twilight is definitely looking manly, so rationally I'd go with, yes, he has gonads.

Well, everyone has gonads, but female gonads, aka ovaries are more internal/less evident than male gonads (testes). The things I end up posting here... ;)

zeitgeist | March 24, 15:49 CET

I'd say Twilight looks fairly mannish.

And Twilight is obviously Buffy's long lost twin brother Jiffy.
C'mon...who wouldn't love to see that?
Oh...everyone?
Everyone wouldn't love to see that?

Forget what I said.

The Londinium Sun | March 24, 15:58 CET

Too late. It's seared on my retinas already. Thanks heaps...

Rowan Hawthorn | March 24, 17:25 CET

Y'know who Twilight *is* (not literally, but essentially), he's the Operative. He reminds me of nothing so much as the Operative.

Wouldn't that be cool?

So, if you make Twilight out as between 6'3" and 6'5", then it can't be Riley. He's only 6'2", just slightly taller than Angel. *G*

Maybe it's Hamilton or...how tall was Graham? Now there's someone who didn't care for Buffy very much.

I don't think it's Xander either but I agree with Vergil. Xander has an innate darkness that comes out at times and it usually happens with someone who is vulnerable in some way.

menomegirl | March 24, 20:52 CET

Is it only me that actually wants Twilight to be somebody we have never met before? That wants the fact we aren't able to see what he looks like to be a red herring, put there to just make as assume that it's someone familiar?

Either that or for it to be Hank Summers! ;)

TheHunter | March 24, 21:05 CET

Cause having it be someone we've never met before after who knows how long the wait to find out who Twlight is would sort of be like...

Pamela Ewing dreaming an entire season of episodes.

menomegirl | March 24, 21:24 CET

Another whacky idea I had for Twilight, someone who knows Buffy, would tire quickly of her whining, and is pretty tuned in to her whole dilemma of being alone and unable to love. Granted, it would require canonizing "Viva Las Buffy" (which doesn't really contradict anything, but would take the effort of saying so), but wouldn't this be an interesting way for Oliver Pike to reappear? :)

KingofCretins | March 24, 22:10 CET

In honor of zeitgeist's biology lesson, I advocate 'nads as bisexual slang for balls. Or dual-sexual. Polysexual. All sexual! You know what I mean.
(But do you have the 'nads to say so?)
(You do. Zeitgeist checked.)

Pointy | March 24, 22:19 CET

Pike isn't tall enough either.

(But do you have the 'nads to say so?) (You do. Zeitgeist checked.)

*snorfles* LOL! Funniest thing I've read all day.

menomegirl | March 24, 22:36 CET

Of course, Pike already was mentioned in this thread, somewhere above. ;)

theonetruebix | March 24, 22:37 CET

Hadn't noticed... I first thought of him around the time the cover for 8.11 was released, having read "Viva Las Buffy" for the first time. Always felt too silly to mention. Was *comic* Pike too short?

I wonder if anyone has nailed it yet and made Joss wince. Y'know, like when Brian Lynch referred to how somebody landed on the answer with Angel and they had Franco draw up some fake panels to make it look like a bad theory?

KingofCretins | March 24, 22:42 CET

How about Owen?

I have no basis on why he could be Twilight, I just like throwing names around.

crazygolfa | March 24, 22:44 CET

Slainte, menomegirl, and your use of the verb "to snorfle"? That was . . . the nads.

Pointy | March 24, 22:51 CET

I did think of Owen but that really felt like it was reaching, although I don't see it as being out of character for him, either. A lot could've happened since we saw him last. (And you know, I watched the Owen episode not too long ago. Was reminded very strongly of Riley Finn.)

I've seen Pike mentioned before, can't recall from who.

menomegirl | March 24, 23:05 CET

I don't know, menomegirl, I tend to think that it would actually benefit the character of Twilight a lot more to be an individual that wasn't tied to any previous Buffyverse history. The mystery of the character wouldn't be lessened if it turned out to be someone entirely new. It would actually add to it.

That said, if it does turn out to be Hank Summers, I called it here first. ;)

TheHunter | March 24, 23:15 CET

Its really the doppel-Xander from when he was split in two. Quick, draw up those fake panels!!! Note: If JMS were scripting, the doppel-Xander would be the one who is one-eyed and the other Xander is the one who is Twilight! Confused yet? You will be!

zeitgeist | March 24, 23:24 CET

Now that, zeitgeist, I'd pay money for. :)

korkster | March 24, 23:28 CET

So we'd have Renfield Xander for an arc, we'd have "Replacement" Xander...s as the Big Bad... all we'd need after that would be to have him defeated with syphilis.

KingofCretins | March 24, 23:43 CET

Or he could evolve into Syphilis Xander (aka the One-Eyed Monster). And then Spike would have to chose between Syphilis Xander and Harmony, and we'd have tested that theory. :)

korkster | March 24, 23:55 CET

I took it that he was joking, almost mocking suspicions that it is Riley.

And I for one hope it isn't him. Despite everything weird and whacky that's ever happened on BtVS, Riley just seems too placid. And slightly dull. And I'm sad to say that I don't even think a stint as a Big Bad who can fly could make him that interesting to me, because it's just... Riley.

I would enjoy Twilight more if it was someone we didn't already know, because there will be no need for fanwanking, no continuity issues and no disenchanted fanbase if the resolution isn't gold. I understand taking risks in the name of art and all that beautiful jazz but I also know that a brilliant story can work without old faces and OoC motives. Yes, jumping the gun quite probably, but I can't help but worry that the Twilight reveal will just cause more resentment than excitement.

However, I am beyond excited and that overweighs any worries. I love S8 with passion, lots and lots of passion.

brynmars | March 24, 23:57 CET

Interestingg the specualtion that the traitor and Twilight might be separate beings...

regardless of that, when we find out who the betrayer is, I really don't thibnk I'll be anything but disappointed. And if the betrayer turns out to also be twilight, I have to wonder (quite seriously) if I'll be able to continue with this series.

Okay, I could handle a resurrected Ben, or resurrected Forrest, or Graham, or Owen, or Joyce coming back as her own animus, but beyond that, this truly has me in ...the place I just said.

DaddyCatALSO | March 25, 23:46 CET

March 23 2008