I love Willow and Tara! They were like the cutest thing ever! And the person who wrote that was right, their relationship was gradual so it wasn't 'weird'.

mark | March 25, 22:29 CET

Billy Crystal played a gay?!? And survived??!!

Interesting enough list anyway.

Oh and spoiler for the finale of Six Feet Under. Ha. I guess for most people it's not considered a spoiler but I've only seen Season 1. Must buy boxset...

[ edited by shelled on 2008-03-25 22:51 ]

shelled | March 25, 22:49 CET

Gorgeous picture of Alyson on that link.

Not sure about the line there about BtVS being a "show aimed at younger viewers" though.

Furball | March 25, 23:09 CET

I truly believe it was a gradual and realistic transition. And it made me happy that I was a fan of show that could show such a tender story without it being the age old all of her friends and family can't handle the change but its okay b/c thats who she is now story.

furball Unfortunantly since the show made its debut on the WB network and the beginning set was in HS. People assume it was meant for younger viewers. But in actuality I'vve learned that the show hits home and is throughly enjoyable by all age groups. But the WB's target audience was the younger viewers.

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 23:45 CET

I'm gonna complain about something here: they used a photo of Alyson Hannigan for Willow's entry. And most of the other photo choices were horrible.

Why am I complaining about meaningless surface stuff in the first place?

Because that's all that this article is made up of.

That post felt pretty mean.

The Londinium Sun | March 26, 00:36 CET

The W?B did always announce before episodes that it was meant for "our teen-age and adult viewers." My daughter, six during S-1, didn't listen to them *g. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

DaddyCatALSO | March 26, 00:38 CET

Is anyone else slightly annoyed by this? I mean this list could easily be renamed "hey here are some gay people on tv." I just feel like it is a bit shallow and trying to show how TV or culture is so progressive now when really it's not close. With that said... Something on the internet is shallow? I'm shocked!

kimkim | March 26, 00:43 CET

kk- every little bit helps...

Dana5140 | March 26, 00:44 CET

Dana4140:I know that every little bit helps... but
kimkim: I understand exactly how you feel. I find it hilarious, and yet, personally insulting that people are still all... "Look, GAYS!" Wow... the plural of gay actually looks as stupid as it sounds. So here's my private epiphany, people haven't gotten more open-minded. They've just become more open-minded about being open-minded.

wenxina | March 26, 02:02 CET

It's an MSN TV list. They make lists all the time. Most of their lists are shallow. This list isn't dumb, though. At least it does cover most of the groundbreaking network stuff.

crossoverman | March 26, 02:17 CET

Aw, I wanna be a groundbreaking gay! Alas, I live in Tennessee...

Arsenal | March 26, 02:37 CET

In some ways this list seemed pretty random, and in some right on. I think Tara/Willow was groundbreaking because the relationship was handled as a great relationship,and not as a great G-A-Y relationship - it was shown as healthy and loving and just part of the whole scene. This was groundbreaking...

Billy Crystal's role as Jodie Dallas on Soap was also groundbreaking. I watched it when it first aired (although I was not born yet at the time ; >) and it kicked up such a ruckus. While in some ways Jodie was written a little stereotypically, in significant other ways he was not, which was pretty radical - and all my gay friends watched it with some satisfaction.

The women were also written with sensitivity, and the butler role of Benson helped Robert Guillaume spin off into his Emmy-winning show Benson - which was similarly a mix of stereotyped writing and a genuine character opportunity. And the show was a pretty smart send-up of soap operas, which was in itself groundbreaking.

I find it a little sad that poor, closeted Liberace is on this list of groundbreaking gays on TV... he denied until his death in 1987 of HIV/AIDS complications that he was gay, and while I certainly would not judge him for that, I wouldn't consider that exactly groundbreaking...

QuoterGal | March 26, 09:40 CET

QG- to pick up your thought, I have some books that disucss what it was like to be gay in Hollywood in the 40s and 50s, and how much things have changed since then. In part, the change is due to depictions in media, such as Willow and Tara. It is, for example, impossible to discuss the manner in which gays have been whon on TV without bringing up W and T, which is all to the good. This list is just a bit of frippery, but itmakes its point nonetheless.

Dana5140 | March 26, 13:57 CET

My thoughts to this list have been stated in the comments to this post already, but I can't help but say again that I don't get why being gay, on TV or in real life, is still such a big deal for many people, such a matter of interest/fear/hate etc. Argh.
Makes me sad.

Ariane | March 26, 14:04 CET

The reason it's such a big deal is the same reason it used to be a big deal to be black and on TV (certainly playing roles that weren't drug dealers or pimps) and the reason it's still a big deal to be black and a serious contender for President of the United States - people are prejudiced against the "other", maybe especially when it hits us where it hurts (figuratively and literally ;) i.e. when it's related to sex/reproduction/gender identity.

The list is about as meaningful in its own right as any other "best of" or "first of" list but it's different relative to other lists because portraying gay people as people, actual and whole, goes some way towards making them NOT the "other", to showing that they are, in fact, "us".

Re: "hey look, gays !", do we accuse the (numerous) other lists that get linked to here as saying "hey look, sci-fi films !" or "hey look, sexy women actors !" as if they're being singled out due to tokenism ? Cos I don't remember that happening.

(personally though, I wish more credit had been given to the producers, writers and even network execs that really took the risks, though in some cases - e.g. Ellen - they're the same as the actor/character)

Saje | March 26, 14:51 CET

It's going to take a long time, a change in a few laws, and a lot of out gay celebrities and (quality) gay characters before it's not a big deal.

I'm happy it's a big deal because that means we're beyond the stage of shoving it back in the closet. I estimate we've got 1 or 2 decades before no one blinks when they see a gay couple on TV.

GrrrlRomeo | March 26, 15:33 CET

Good points made all around. I admit to some misplaced anger. I'm not annoyed by the list. I'm annoyed that I'm still impressed when there is a well rounded gay character, that it is not something that I can always expect, that it is still fairly rare. I'm angry that when it does become commonplace to have realistic portrayals on tv that there will still be gross injustices in our society at large. I'm not so blind though as to not notice that change has been made and is still coming. I guess I have to be happy with the change that has been made, to see it as hope and keep pushing for a bit more. Alright so this is a list of groundbreaking gays and I'm just upset that more ground has not been broken.

kimkim | March 26, 16:23 CET

I'm angry that when it does become commonplace to have realistic portrayals on tv that there will still be gross injustices in our society at large.

The two go together, I think. Progress in one arena helps progress in the other. Remember what Uhura did for Whoopi Goldberg and other people in her generation who watched Star Trek as kids. Today's gay characters on tv have done the same thing for the next generation. And today's black characters continue to do that. Not enough ground has been gained for minority characters of all kinds on tv, or in real life, but I do think the two are irrevocably connected.

Sunfire | March 26, 16:55 CET

(personally though, I wish more credit had been given to the producers, writers and even network execs that really took the risks, though in some cases - e.g. Ellen - they're the same as the actor/character)

No kidding. I had no idea that Joss Whedon had threatened to quit if the network made BtVS edit out that kiss until the Paley reports started coming in. Moxy.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-03-26 17:00 ]

Sunfire | March 26, 16:59 CET

I think that credit often comes after the fact because of how much of it happens behind closed doors. I'm sure gay characters and gay storylines are brought up in writers rooms more often than we can know. We often don't learn until years later that there was ever a fight for the characters we have or fights that were lost for the characters we don't have. But if people went public with those issues when they occured it would be biting the hand that feeds them.

There are some characters that'll be left off the list because they didn't break the ground or pave the way, but did crack it and cleared a way to pave. And that fight...still going on.

GrrrlRomeo | March 26, 20:02 CET

True, as with Joss it may not come out until years later, if at all (him threatening to quit over the kiss was news to me too) but even just recognition of the creators would've been nice.

Re: cracking the paving, I wonder how much credit should be given to even stereotypical portrayals in that regard ? I'm thinking of e.g. Mr Humphries from 70s Brit sitcom 'Are You Being Served ?' who was a very stereotypical "comedy poof". Still, laughing with/at a portrayal is one way of teaching people not to be afraid of the group represented and even of associating them with good times (in fact, that often seems to be the progression - from "threat" to "butt of joke" to "in on the joke" to "serious character with a point" to "just a character"). Or do those portrayals do more harm than good ?

ETA: Just to be clear, i'm not saying that's the ideal progression, just that it might be a valid one.

[ edited by Saje on 2008-03-26 20:20 ]

Saje | March 26, 20:19 CET

Or do those portrayals do more harm than good ?

I think they can do great good if they're done well. I do see it done badly though. I still find that many people think gay men are all effeminate, and I think that stereotype sometimes gets reinforced by the way gay men are portrayed on tv. But I don't know that the problem is so much that characters like Mr. Humphries exist. I think it's more that they're predominately what we see, although recently that's been getting better. Even though an effeminate man may be threatening for some people, I think a more traditionally masculine man who likes other men is probably more of a threat to a viewer's sense of heteronormality. Stereotypes are comfortable because they're predictable. Categories are more safe. If you can pick the only gay in the village out by his Cher references and body language, and if he's a bit ridiculous, gayness isn't as scary. So that's what gets done more.

Mr. Humphries is an awesome sitcom character. He's over the top. You know that in a contrived sitcomy situation on the show, he can be counted on to do something a bit outrageous for the laugh. He's hilarious, and brilliantly written and played. So is Jack McFarland. Jack's larger than life, but Will Truman's pretty normal. I think Will is far, far more threatening for that reason, and I think it's more difficult to bring people like him to the screen. I expect many more Wills have been edited out of earlier versions of things. I don't mind the Mr. Humphries and Jacks, but I think it's a significant problem that people like Will are still seen less regularly. There are people like Jack out there, but there are many more Wills.

I didn't follow Will and Grace's production at all, but I wouldn't be shocked if Jack's there not just for comic relief but as a kind of security. Will's the Whedonesque character of that show-- the one who quietly subverts stereotypes. And he has a sidekick who is every gay stereotype rolled into a single character and made larger than life. Even people I know who don't support gay rights think Jack is very funny. Will's got them puzzled, but they know Jack's the funny guy.

Sunfire | March 26, 21:06 CET

Actually, I just saw an interesting list last month about influential films on race. "Gone with the Wind" was included. Although Mammy was a pretty stereotypical character on the surface, in hindsight she was sort of the moral center of the movie.

I think stereotype characters can sometimes serve as a Trojan Horse. People might be more comfortable seeing the stereotype at first, and then "surprise" there's something more. But, that's really only if the characters are likable stereotypes. I think Will & Grace was very much like that.

If it's any consolation, Joss usually gets some sort of credit on a semi-regular basis on AfterEllen. Mainstream media usually does ignore creators and especially writers whenever a TV show does something interesting. But I don't think it goes unnoticed by the people it directly affects.

Comparitively speaking, Joss often gets the Kudos when I see Btvs mentioned on gay sites. Rob Tapert rarely does when X:wp is mentioned...

[ edited by GrrrlRomeo on 2008-03-26 22:44 ]

GrrrlRomeo | March 26, 22:44 CET

Rob Tapert rarely does when X:wp is mentioned...

Which is funny, considering I remember an interview where Lucy Lawless was describing how he was directing her to act jealous-- "she's flirting with some other guy!" or some such. And Lucy Lawless was surprised or mock offended, I forget exactly, for it to be implied that she was playing a dude. So from that I have this impression that he was very directly involved in the subtext from early on. But I kinda get the omission, in a way. X:WP always toed that line of "are they, aren't they," which was good in one sense but maddening in another. It's kinda awkward to give credit for heavy subtext and in-jokes when you're a site promoting openness.

Also, he invented Joxer, who is possibly even less popular as a comedic hanger-on and self-parody than Andrew.

Sunfire | March 26, 23:12 CET

That's Joxer the Mighty to you ;). Sometimes the "three stooges" style musical cues were a bit much when his hijinks were ensuing but he was well played and written IMO.

You both make good points re: stereotypes and I agree that because they're in a recognisable "box" people feel more comfortable, which means you can then start to change the box's dimensions and before you know it ... you've totally broken the metaphor ;). And even as far back as Mr Humphries, though we're partly meant to be laughing at him he also has the last laugh a lot of the time and was shown to be very quick with a witty response.

And yeah, from what I saw of 'Will and Grace' Jack did seem to be a sort of Bandit to Will's Snowman. Strange when normalcy is something you have to sneak in ;).

(Xena/Gabrielle was pretty overt subtext but it was still subtext so I can understand Rob Tapert not getting too much credit. Strong Female Characters though so the creators deserve credit for that. Sometimes it seems to be forgotten that they had SFCs and a musical episode a couple of years before Buffy - not to take anything away from Joss and the gang)

Saje | March 27, 00:48 CET

I found Joxer to be surprisingly awesome at times. But yeah, not so into the Three Stooges moments that he often brought with him. I like Andrew more, but Andrew doesn't have his own theme song. And I have to admit that Joxer is the better person at the end of the day.

Sunfire | March 27, 01:34 CET

Rob pushed and pulled based on ratings and fan reaction. He loved the X/G relationship, but ultimately followed the numbers. Rob ends up being ommitted for credit because he's blamed for dropping the subtext in Season 5 and caving to the "Ellen Effect" myth. ("Are they, aren't they" is a ratings catcher question, that when answered to the audience's satisfaction will be followed by a ratings drop.)

GrrrlRomeo | March 27, 01:59 CET

Xena had two musical episodes before Buffy hit Season 5. Trust me, the Xenites don't forget. LOL I gotta be careful for when I put my Xena hat on and my Buffy hat on and not mix the two too much.

GrrrlRomeo | March 27, 02:08 CET

A lot of shows have done musical episodes; I wasn't impressed byt he one on Chicago Hope (Joss apparently wasn't either) but the one on Big Brother Jake could have been that show's most memorable episode.

Xena and Gabrielle, I dunno. In some ways, saying two characters have a sexual relationship is a fairly neat, well-defined, even simple descriptive package. (Not that the relationship itself has to be simple, they never really are.)

Personally I think Xena and Gabrielle are more interesting if they're viewed as one of those quasi-sexual, or maybe crypto-sexual is a better term, friendships that never quite become fully sexual or romantic. In real life it seems most common between a woman and a man or a woman and another woman, less common between 2 men. (ALtho one of the best on-screen versions of such a friendship is that between Alan Bates's and Oliver Reed's characters in Women in Love.)

DaddyCatALSO | March 27, 15:39 CET

Personally, I'm a Bitexter. A retired bitexter. The terminology of the Xenaverse tells a story in itself. A Shipper is someone who ships heterosexual ships. A Subber or Subtexter is someone who ships gay ships. A Bitexter is someone who ships both. Buffy fans know how bad a shipper war can get, but imagine shipper wars drawn on sexual orientation lines...for years on end.

Gay subtext is groundbreaking in that it offers a way for people to see sexuality without a label. It's not a gay relationship because anyone said it's a gay relationship, but because it's a relationship.

But it's not groundbreaking because it offers a way out for people who are uncomfortable with it, and/or creates the notion that sexual orientation is open to interpretation by the observer.

GrrrlRomeo | March 27, 17:43 CET

Shouldn't the character of Carter Heywood from Spin City be on that list? I didn't watch the show regularly, but every time I've come across it, he struck me as a gay and Black character who was treated with complete respect, and, to the extend that it was an ensemble show, he was an equal member of the group, not merely a secondary character.

barboo | March 27, 18:44 CET

Aw, I wanna be a groundbreaking gay! Alas, I live in Tennessee...

I see you're in Memphis. Not only is it the birthplace of the legendary Morgan Freeman, it's also associated with groundbreaking gay people such as Richard Halliburton, Michael Jeter, and Alberta Hunter.

Tennessee was the birthplace or home of an amazing number of groundbreaking people who defied convention and stereotypes. Its reputation really undersells it, though.

Sunfire | March 29, 00:27 CET