I dunno, I think that could be an interesting story thread - even though it's distasteful or possibly disgusting to him should a gay man be forced to impregnate women ? Would people become (even more) prejudiced against homosexuality in a situation where the species' survival may depend on heterosexual reproduction ? Should women be forced to become pregnant ? Reproductive freedom could be just one more thing they wrestle with their consciences over.

It's an idea that's been done before with women and the idea of it being their duty to reproduce under certain circumstances but I haven't seen it often with men, probably because the sacrifice involved is so much less ('A Boy and His Dog' has the 'boy' being "milked" for want of a better word in order to provide "new blood" to an underground colony but that's pretty much rape, there's no real moral conundrum involved).

Course, maybe RDM et al just think it's been done or, ironically, maybe they think that despite having sympathetic suicide bombers, front-line female soldiers and pretty political content, an overtly gay character might be a step too far ?

Saje | March 31, 13:11 CET

I like BSG but the presentation of the character of character of Six feels a lot like the presentation of Seven of Nine in Voyager to me. Yes, she's in Baltar's head and that can be an iffy place but what a fine excuse to show her in skimpy clothes all the time. To balance out we had Apollo in a towel once – once – which was enough for me but whatever floats your boat.

And, while not exsctly advertising - just five minutes ago I stumbled upon this.

[ edited by moley75 on 2008-03-31 16:59 ]

moley75 | March 31, 16:14 CET

I guess we're using the modern definition of gay to refer specifically to men then? 'Cause Cain and Gina both came off a little gay to me. ;)

And I have to fervently disagree with the objectification remark. As much as I adore Joss and all of his creations, it was deeply satisfying to me to hear him comment on how the show (BSG) isn't about, "Look how tough and strong our women are," because it's move past the need. As far as this show is concerned the sexes truly are equal... which is supposed to mean neither "side" needs to point it out.

Haunt | March 31, 16:16 CET

Yeah, fair point, I guess I haven't fully fit 'Razor' into the BSG box in my head yet ;).

Neither of them are ongoing though and they're still the conventionally acceptable face of gayness i.e. two hot women.

Saje | March 31, 16:22 CET

I shouldn't go to bed when I need to clarify a point. I'm a huge fan of BSG. I didn't mean that the show objectifies women. As I mentioned, it has some great-looking men, too. What I meant was that talk of women led some of the interviewees to discuss the women on BSG in a condescending, objectifying way. That seems to happen all the time with various lists of hot women in sci-fi. There are far fewer lists of hot men. Also, if all the people interviewed just happened to be women, except for one woman, and they talked about how their husbands liked to watch it, too, wouldn't people have noticed gender?

But I loved everything Joss said.

Suzie | March 31, 18:52 CET

The Phenomenon whos end is in sight - yay *g*

Pumps | March 31, 23:35 CET

I like BSG but the presentation of the character of character of Six feels a lot like the presentation of Seven of Nine in Voyager to me.

See, I think Six completely undercuts the 7 of 9 cliche. 7 of 9 was clearly UPN pushing Voyager to include a "hotter" woman - whereas with Six as a primary villain (and a complicated one at that), I can't really similarities at all.

crossoverman | April 01, 00:43 CET

To touch on Saje's remark about gay men contributing to the continuation of the species: Hell yeah they would. Two gay men have saved my life, each once. My good friend Dereck, when I worked for Continental Airlines, brought wine and balloons to my hotel room in Houston when I was there for my divorce. I thought I was totally alone, and then he came. I was so sad. He listened and provided the friend-support to get me through it.

The other was my cardiologist. I had a heart attack two weeks after I had my daughter Willow. The prep nurses had neglected to put those tight white socks on my legs when I had my c-section (major abdominal surgery), that were supposed to prevent blood clots. Well I got one that put a half-dollar sized injury to my heart (thankfully well away from the pump) and he identified and minimized the damage quickly, plus his follow-up was pretty fucking amazing. He's been a friend and caring doc ever since. Good guy. I was subsequently invited to the civil service when he committed to his partner, and we socialize to this day. He loves Willow like a daughter.

I firmly believe that any gay man, judging from the many I've known in the airline and artistic professions, would do anything to help anyone ever. Gay men fucking rock.

Willowy | April 01, 08:29 CET

crossoverman - I think Six is all her versions is a tremendous character - complicated, interesting, humorous - she is my favourite Cylon (though I do like Three). I just don't like what she wears.

moley75 | April 01, 10:03 CET

Well, I haven't known too many gay men Willowy though of the ones i've known, some were total dicks and some were decent blokes but my point isn't are they evil and so would refuse to help or are they good and so would do their civic duty and "lie back and think of England", my point is, it might be an interesting slant on the idea of reproductive freedom in a situation where that freedom may actually be dangerous for the species.

(i'm glad you've had only good experiences in that regard though ;)

See, I think Six completely undercuts the 7 of 9 cliche. 7 of 9 was clearly UPN pushing Voyager to include a "hotter" woman ...

I think that last bit is probably true but I also think it's pretty unfair to the character and Jeri Ryan who played the hell out of her when the writing gave her the chance. 6 may seem more complicated because she has more human "weaknesses" but Seven was far from just T&A, even if that's what the network had in mind - she was a build-a-human character in the grand old Trek tradition, the outsider that lets us look inside us all and in many ways she had a more genuinely alien perspective than all the cylons and bumpy foreheads put together.

(and let's not kid ourselves either, Tricia Helfer isn't stunningly good looking in a "California Blond" style just by coincidence - and yes, I know she's Canadian ;) - nor is the rest of the cast hot purely by accident - stuff like that works the same all over TV)

The thing that strikes me about 6 BTW (and I mean '6' as opposed to any other sixes), is that she might be a figment of Baltar's imagination and even if not she's designed to seduce him, so having her dress how she does is totally consistent. I don't think it objectifies her as much as it highlights Baltar's weaknesses (and Gina and Caprica both dress much more normally).

ETA: Oh and that photo looks like a sort of ironic poke at exactly what you're talking about moley75 (though I appreciate there's a fine line between satirising something and promoting it). For my money it also does what i'd previously thought a tall order - it renders 3 extremely attractive women totally unerotic. Bad setup, bad costumes, bad poses (if the idea is to turn people on).

[ edited by Saje on 2008-04-01 10:57 ]

Saje | April 01, 10:38 CET

"Bad setup, bad costumes, bad poses (if the idea is to turn people on)"

I just hope that they took that shot quickly because Grace Park is in danger of severe cramp otherwise. This sort of image makes me sad (I didn't consider it being ironic and it would be interesting to know its original source) for the reasons you say - three tremendous looking women looking uncomfortable and a tad silly.

moley75 | April 01, 11:26 CET

Apologies if this has already been mentioned because I've not had chance to read down this entire thread but I thought I'd let all the UK fans know that Sky One will be showing BSG: The Phenomenon and BSG: Revisited on Tuesday, April 8th from 9pm.

Highlander | April 01, 12:03 CET

Oh, I don't think the photo itself has a direct source moley75 but the outfits and general OTT camp kitsch-ness of it has to hark back to stuff like 'Barbarella', 'Flash Gordon' or 'Queen of Outer Space' where female characters were (usually) just empty headed decorations, scream queens or dominatrix style "powerful" women that just needed the right man (usually, strangely, from Earth ;) and a good shag to see the error of their ways.

And obviously the female characters on BSG are pretty much the polar opposite of camp, kitsch or over the top scream queens with the whole feel of the show being gritty realism, so the irony comes from the juxtaposition.

(the difference being - to wear my shallow male hat - Barbarella is hella sexy ;)

[ edited by Saje on 2008-04-01 12:47 ]

Saje | April 01, 12:44 CET

I should have been clearer - I meant source as in what magazine it was scanned from (it looks like a scan to me) - it makes a huge difference if it was for Vanity Fair or for Maxim :-)

moley75 | April 01, 13:08 CET

Ah, get you ;). No idea (but i'd speculate that it's more a 'Vanity Fair' or 'TV Guide' sort of thing - doesn't really seem racy enough for 'Maxim').

Saje | April 01, 13:27 CET

I'm a big fan of Seven on Voyager, too. I agree that casting a beautiful woman and putting her in a skintight suit and heels was pandering to male viewers. But I like how the character got to subvert the stereotype of what it means to be an attractive woman.

Suzie | April 01, 18:17 CET

I may seem to spend my time whinging about blondes in skimpy outfits but I also loved Seven's character. Her interactions with the Doctor were a highlight.

moley75 | April 01, 18:25 CET

I've been catching up on BSG podcasts in the past few days - one thing I've learned is that, whatever we may think of Gaius, in the "Is he funny or not?" department, James Callis et al. think he's hysterically funny. At least, when talking about him with a bunch of whiskey in them, they do. (As for me, I do, to some extent, although quite often I'm cringing, and the Husband is hoping someone will throw him out an airlock.)

Someone about a year or so ago tried to convince me to watch BSG, and I asked "Is there any humor in it?" and she said there wasn't, so I stayed away a bit longer. Then I stuck my toe in with the miniseries from Netflix and never looked back. But I have to disagree with her and say that I do find humor in it... the right amount, to my way of thinking, and to agree with many upthread.

Kirochka | April 01, 18:46 CET

Agreeing with Kirochka that BSG has just the right amount of humor in just the right places, considering the main thrust of the story.
But I'm probably the second biggest BSG fan on the planet ;)
IMO it's very near to perfection.

Shey | April 02, 09:10 CET