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March 28 2008

IGN's 'Chick Fight' Pits Slayer Against Terminator. After wiping the floor with BSG's Number Six, Summer Glau's Cameron is currently winning the fight against "the first, true lady ass kicker".

Who do you think would win? Cast your vote on the bottom of the second page.

What about River vs. Cameron? Thats a match-up Id like to vote on.
Because you like typing Cameron ? ;)

(seriously, Cameron doesn't have a mind in our sense so it seems likely River couldn't read her. Without her psychic powers River's just a very good fighter whereas Cameron is a nigh unstoppable, remorseless killing machine with the power of a small JCB. No contest)

Cameron vs Buffy is tougher to call. Hand to hand and one on one (no Scoobs) i'd say Cameron (Mr Pointy and the Buffster's other edged weapons just aren't going to cut it. Literally I mean - they couldn't cut hyper-alloy ;). But Buffy knows when to use modern armaments to reach her goals (see Judge, The) and if she did the same thing again, I think she could toast Cameron.
The Buffster all the way. She's too clever for Cameron. Plus, you just know she's seen the Terminator movies, so she'd know how to take her down.
I'd have to vote Buffy as well. As Summer has pointed out, a Terminator is just brute force, relying on always being the strongest thing in the room. Buffy has shown time and time again that she can adapt and beat stronger oponents. Terminators have weaknesses, mains electricity has knocked out two Terminators for two minutes in T:TSCC and I'm sure that Buffy could do something in that two minutes to ensure the 'bot stays down.

Cameron has to work on her quips to catch up with the Buffster in that respect.
Cameron is just a glorified Adam so I reckon Buffy could take her no problem.
Yeah, I'd go with Buffy on smarts and experience.

"Buffy has shown time and time again that she can adapt and beat stronger opponents."

Exactly.
I think Buffy would beat the terminator without needing to resort to force. She would just lay down some quickfire quips about its fashion sense and fry its logic circuits Kirk-style.
Cameron VS. Willow

Mechanical strength VS. earthy mysticism, now that'd be interesting. Albeit a bit one-sided.
Buffy would lose to Cameron in the first fight (but survive), then come back and wipe the floor with her in the second.

Then another Cameron would be sent back through time to do the same again only differently...


Cameron vs Willow? The only problem Willow would have is whether Kennedy would be jealous, when she brings a deactivated Terminatrix back home to reprogram and install a few new interesting subroutines into...
Buffy could easily confuse Cameron with a witty remark about pop culture then if Willow is present she could upload a virus into Cameron with her Macbook. Apple defeats everything!

But if its strictly hand to hand combat... Cameron would no doubt win because Buffy probably can't bend coltan.
Buffy would demolish Cameron. After all, if Sarah Connor--a woman with no superpowers--can take out a Terminator (here I'm talking T1), of course a superpowered slayer can take out a terminator!

Plus, Buffy's beaten a couple of robots, including Malcolm and April--although she powered down. Plus, as Saje pointed out, she can handle a rocket launcher.
She might get smacked around a little bit, but we know she can take it.

Buffy all the way. (sorry, Summer!) BTW, vote, people, as our favorite slayer is losing in the polls!
Sarah Connor didn't destroy the terminator in the first movie. She was running away and happened to happen (that sounds funny) upon a pressing machine of some sort. She pressed a button and it got smashed. I don't think that really counts as taking it out. Plus she did have superpowers, she was played by Linda Hamilton! Thats a super power!
Plus Cameron is a different model and obviously made better then the arnold models. I mean she can eat...

She could eat Buffy!!!

Buffy: Eat me!

Cameron: Okay.
Okay, but Buffy could have the same pressing-machine luck. Willow could like, fly it there.

For that matter, couldn't Dawn pull a Fee Fi Fo....?

ETA: For some reason, this really reminds me of the whole Angel and Spike astronauts versus cavemen thing.
Buffy has supernatural primordial powers; Cameron has the whole future-technology thing. And Cameron will lose, just as the astronauts would.

[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-03-28 23:38 ]
Let's push Buffy and Cameron aside for a moment... In a fight who would win Sarah Michelle Gellar or Summer Glau?

I'd say Summer.
A bunch of people have listed monsters of the week at least as dangerous as Cameron - Buffy could fry/smash/fricassee the machine and still have plenty of time left for some quality angst.

And is anyone else annoyed that they bungled that last line? Summer vs. Summers has a much nicer ring to it.
If Buffy has her posse to back her up, she would win hands down. And there's no reason why she shouldn't. Glaubot can even bring her friends too so John can whine. He and Xander could get in a slap-fight. It would be great.
I say thee nay, xerox! Sarah is trained in martial arts and has been for a decade. Summer has limited training in martial arts--just ballet (and Sarah has that ice skating thing going, so the two are nullified).

In terms of real-life injuries, Sarah had those broken ribs; Summer had a ballet career-ending broken and not perfectly-healed toe.

Sarah would demolish Summer.

Cobralice, I like the Summer vs. Summers; the only issue that bugs me is that it's mixing person vs. persona.
But, BandofBuggered, Sarah hasn't been using those skills for like five years now.
Plus Summer just looks like she has the heart of a killer inside of her. Behind her cute magical appearance is a savage warrior.
Sarah is trained in martial arts...

When cast SMG said she was a brown belt, but as she, and any actor, would say, if a casting director asks you if you can skate, ride a horse, fly the space shuttle, whatever... You say "Yes" and then quickly take a couple of lessons before they have a chance to find out you lied.
Not saying SMG didn't do martial arts, just saying that she wouldn't be the first actor to "Misspeak", as Hilary Clinton would say.

Having said that she did skate quite well in one episode. And juggle in another.

Plus Summer just looks like she has the heart of a killer inside of her. Behind her cute magical appearance is a savage warrior.
I got that exact vibe at the ME strike day Xerox, like she was about to snap and beat someone to a pulp any second. Shame Mr Murdoch didn't turn up for work at the time...

(Just kidding...)
Buffy wins. I mean, even if she died, she'd just come back to life again, no? :-)

No, seriously, Buffy would win. She is THE Slayer.
Hate to go against the trend of the board, but let me mention several things.

#1: It took two people with guns, a bunch of factory machines, a truck crash, and some dumb luck to beat the first Terminator.

#2: It took two people with guns, a bunch of factory machines, a truck crash, some dumb luck, and ANOTHER TERMINATOR to beat the T-1000.

#3: It took two people with guns, some equipment from a military installation, a couple of PLANE crashes, some dumb luck, and another Terminator to beat the TX.

#4: Moloch/Malcolm was nothing like a Terminator. Neither was April. Neither was the BuffyBot, frankly.

No, in a womano-e-machinimo fight (no Scoobies), I'm liking Cameron. She's faster, built tougher, and let's face it...as a representative of her kind, she's due. The Terminators keep almost winning, even when the deck and the hands of fate are both against them. You just know that sooner or later, one of them is gonna slip in and have itself a real good day.
BandofBuggered, I think your analogy is flawed. The cavemen are supposed to represent man's primal nature...fearful, superstitious, and bent on survival at any cost. The astronauts represent our higher natures...reason, refined emotions, capable of sacrificing for a unit, and so forth. It's a metaphor for the struggle in our souls. The reason the "cavemen win" is because, no matter how astronaut-like we may be, we still have those primal instincts that kick into gear when we need them. It's part of the human package, and a part that we will never outgrow. (ETA: But we can mitigate it, a trait that means there may be some hope for the astronaut after all.)

(Interestingly enough, when the choice to save Fred's life came up, Angel--the advocate for the astronauts--was perfectly ready to give into his desires, his need for his team, and sacrifice thousands of lives for Fred. It was left to Spike, caveman defender extraordinare, to remind him that, to quote the words of another fictional 'astronaut,' "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one." This essential switching of sides is one of the things I find most fascinating about the episode.)

Now I can make my case that the analogy doesn't apply here. Cameron isn't caveman or astronaut...she lacks the savage instincts of one and the refined emotions of the other. She's a machine, period, end of story--single-minded, brutal, and undeterrable in the pursuit of a goal. Additionally, though Buffy's powers are primal, she has proven herself time and again to be an astronaut. If Buffy won in the end, it would be the victory of (wo)man over machine, not caveman over astronaut.

[ edited by BAFfler on 2008-03-29 06:37 ]
Buffy wins. I mean, even if she died, she'd just come back to life again, no? :-)

But it would take her a lot longer than 120 seconds to reboot. ;)
Schmationalizations aside, Buffy doesn't lose (at least, not in the end). That's kinda her deal.
Buffy is highly adaptable, she'd take her down in the end.. take out that USB plugin thingy in her head.
Again, not meaning to belittle the opposing POV, but think about this for a second. Some people here are asserting that Buffy, who, incredible though her powers are, possessed of good combat technique though she may be, is still a biological entity prone to all the inconveniences thereof...

...is adaptable, powerful, and skilled enough to beat (which in this context would mean "destroy" or "render inoperative") a highly advanced hunter-killer combat machine, which was built and programmed to adapt to changing situations -- and which has more processing capability (plus a wealth of 20th-21st century information), can move more quickly, and is more invulnerable. And the justification for this conclusion is, "Buffy doesn't lose, that's kind of her deal."

Err...okay, SNT. You know I have a lot of respect for you, but of the two of us, I don't think I'm the one "schmationalizing" my viewpoint here. Cameron in six rounds.

And I think I've just placed my finger on why I don't get dates.
BAFfler - :)
Also the question needs to be asked. Do they have weapons? (It's important! :p)
From what I've seen of Terminator unarmed fighting techniques, all they do is stand there throwing huge clumsy punches and occasionally throw people through walls. They're slower, clumsier and less skilled than a Slayer.

Anyway, surely 'Bring On The Night'/'Showtime' would show what would happen if Buffy ran up against a Termie, because seems to me that's what those fight scenes were a homage to...
Cameron can do ballet... I don't think that means she's clumsy.
Buffy had to call upon the primal side of the slayer in order to defeat Adam. A guy that didn't move around a lot while fighting....
I'm going to write a paper about why Cameron would win in a fight with Buffy...
I assume it would be quite a throw down but Buffy's instincts and Demon powers would go a long way to taking down Cameron
I'm somewhat glad that everyone else immediately thought, "Do the astronauts have weapons?" But in this case the more pertinent question is, "Does Buffy have her friends?" Because that's the real determining factor.

I went ahead and voted for Buffy. She's my first love.
Though I'm certain it won't come as any surprise, for his arguments here (as well as for many other reasons) I'm going to have to side enthusiastically with BAFfler.
which was built and programmed to adapt to changing situations -


I would quite happily pay to watch Cameron try and adapt to Buffy using magic (a la season 8).
Buffy wins. Buffy is a woman. Cameron is a machine. Woman beats machine any day.
Personally, I think the Buffyverse has a far stronger female ass-kicker to offer than Buffy herself. Illyria. I think Illyria, with her powers intact, would wipe the floor with Cameron. I mean... she could stop time. And, even if Cameron somehow got her hands on the crystal from the sarcophagus, I still say Illyria's stronger when it comes to hand-to-hand. She is a demon god, after all.

Hell, I say even Fred could potentially best Cameron. Not in one-on-one combat, of course, but she's proven to be good with machines and she is, well... a genius. So, I'm sure she could cook up some kind of virus/anti-Cameron thingamabob.

Oh, and when it's Buffy versus Cameron? I'd say Buffy. I think she's clever enough to take her down. Yeah, I know, it took a lot to take the old Terminators down (planes, trucks, guns), but... where there's a will, there's a way.
Supersymettrical, exactly.
Funny. I always heard that where there's a will, there are relatives. :)

Okay, I knew someone would bring in "Bring on the Night," because I didn't. So let's focus on that episode, and marvel at how thoroughly Buffy got whooped--because that's the only episode where the Ubervamp was anything like a Terminator. Let's afec it--after that episode, didn't it seem a little ridiculous when some barbed wire was able to off the Ubervamp in "Showtime"? And let's not forget the final fight scene in "Chosen," where plot necessity dictated that well-nigh-indestructible vampires suddenly became as easy to kill as your average cemetery lurker.

Besides, an analogy is ALL it can be, stormwreath. Ubervamps are still creatures of biology. It may be harder to drive a stake through their heart than any other vampire (even Kakistos), but it can be done, especially when, as Joss so readily admitted in the "Chosen" commentary track, the plot calls for it. I'd like to see ANY Slayer, Buffy and Faith not exempted, drive a stake through the sternum of...or, for that matter, attempt to behead with even the Scythe...a combat chassis made of hyper-alloy. Hell, I'd even like to see them try and send an electric charge through something that can move faster, and dodge quicker, for longer than they can. Not working for me.

Supersymettrical, I do agree with you on one thing. I think Illyria, with all her powers, would be far more than a match for Cameron. (Even an Illyria whose powers were dangerously fluctuating took down four members of the Fang Gang without breaking stride in "Time Bomb.") And her hardened skin must be at least a match for anything the best computerized factories in the 2020's can cook up. So, yeah, Illyria over Cameron, I give you that.

For all those of you who continue to think that somehow a Slayer would best a machine in the end, because of her demon-based powers (despite the fact that she's mortal, therefore more breakable than a metallic warrior), or her ingenuity (despite the fact that a Terminator isn't exactly stupid, and Buffy doesn't have a limitless supply of rocket launchers), or just because her name is above the title, even though in this fight it wouldn't be (are any of you chanelling Warren Meers--"Because it's Superman's BOOK, you moron!"), all I can say is, let's agree to disagree. But I still champion a really hot and deadly machine over even the most fashion-conscious of Vampire Slayers.

Oh, Haunt, must you always support me? If you keep fawning like this, someday they'll find out about us...
Buffy would so kick Cameron's cute behind in the Buffyverse, but bring Buffy to the world of Terminator, Cameron would just snap Buffy's neck and move on.

It's a tie.

What I don't understand why they didn't choose the Buffybot vs Cameron.
BAFfler Haunt ; It boils down to "What kind of tools does the human have available?" As Reese said in T-1, "With these weapons . . . ."

Okay, a metal-stamping machine isn't exactly portable. But sticks of dynamite are. So, depnding on how you define portable, is a bulldozer,e xcept when it's unavailable because it's off chasing a cowdozer. (Thanks, Poul Anderson, RIP) Of course it's easy to dodge.

It's a matter of eprspective. To a guy driving a WWII-vintage tank like a Sherman or a Tiger, a full regiment armed with nothing but muzzle-loading smoothbores, or even with the altest bolt-action big-game rifles, would be nothing but a very minor nuisance. To a single person carrying a contemporary A-LAW, designed to be effective against high-tech forms of armor, the Sherman tank is (unless the crew sees him coming and takes him out at long range) a nuisance.
Exactly. As I said, hand to hand and alone, Cameron's gonna beat at least the seven basic shades of shit out of Buffy and i'd bet on a couple more. If Buffy has weapons of her choosing (and especially if she has help in the form of her Wicca-that-now-willa) then Cameron has no chance - she can't outrun magic, she can't outfight magic, she's not even from the right universe to deal with magic. And as you mention DCA, even conventional explosives (if well placed) can tear a Terminator in two, imagine what magic-C4 could do.

Buffy doesn't lose (at least, not in the end). That's kinda her deal.

This is why she should never fight Batman*. It'd be like an immoveable object meeting an unstoppable force (and then it'd be with the space-time and the ripping and the cataclysmic end to all life as we know it ... paradoxes eh ? Whaddya do ?).


* except she should totally fight Batman. Please do the crossover Joss, please, please, please. It's not like he hasn't fought with pretty much every other Dark Horse property already ;)
Krusher said:

What I don't understand why they didn't choose the Buffybot vs Cameron.

Because it would be like throwing a vibrator at a small tank.

Dear God, I can't believe I just said that.
What size is the vibrator ? And does it have weapons ?
Sorry, double post!

[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-03-29 20:42 ]
No, Saje, just the "bunny ear" attachments.

Which would scare the bejeezus out of Anya.

Buffy fighting Batman would be kind of awesome, especially if Carrie Kelly were the Robin.
It would be really interesting, because Batman is really thoughtful and deliberate about his actions, whereas the Buffster has her slayer instincts. I think the two would declare a truce based on mutual respect after the two beat hell out of each other.
The thing about Batman is that he always gets hurt and has to have Alfred patch him up, and he heals like a normal human. Buffy has that accelerated healing thing going for her.
Problem is, doesn't DC own Batman? I know there's that whole Batman/Grendel thing at Dark Horse, but isn't Batman still DC?

I still say she pounds Cameron, just because I can't ever envision Buffy losing...especially to a robot.
I think Buffy could win. She could hurt her enough to cause her to reboot and in those 120 seconds, take off her brain.

Of course, Buffy would get hurt,too,but i think she'd ultimately win.
And she knows where the "brain" is because ... ?

Oh yeah BandofBuggered, he's very much DC (in fact literally, since 'Detective Comics' is the original Batman title ;) but he's crossed-over with Aliens, Predator, Hellboy and Grendel from Dark Horse (he's a bit of a slut in fact ;) so why not Buffy ?

When I think of Batman vs Buffy I think of the Batman story 'Broken City' where he's up against a very fast, skilled female opponent and, while being crushed by her (very large, strong) male partner and having the crap beaten out of him, he's still able to analyse her strengths and weaknesses and formulate a strategy to beat her. He only has human strength but you might say he has "Slayer drive" and never quits until he's actually unable to function and like Buffy he doesn't lose (in the end) BUT he has many years experience of not losing and what it takes to get there. He is, in short, quite formidable ;).
BAFFler, you're disallowing parts of the Buffy mythology that give her power - magic, heroic destiny as protector, etc. - while allowing all the Terminator mythology's imaginary technology.
dreamlogic...no, I'm not. The heroic destiny is part of the primal slayer power package, which I've mentioned several times. (Not to mention, Buffy's heroic destiny hasn't saved her from a few whoopings--and if I recall, a couple deaths--in her day.)

As for magic, though Buffy's powers are granted BY it, she doesn't often use magic herself, though she's gotten quite a few assists from it in the past. We very rarely see any Slayer use magic, for that matter. They much prefer getting into close-quarters combat. (See D"Hoffryn, "Selfless": "I think we know what Lady Hacksaway wants...") I think it's fair to assume for this fight that Buffy would be bringing only what she normally brings on patrol -- namely, her (magically-endowed) Slayer strength, her combat technique, and her quick wits. And a weapon or two that would be of little use against a Terminator.

Now, since the fight is "Buffy vs. Cameron," what I am disallowing is Scooby participation. (Which does rule out a lot of magical intervention on Buffy's behalf, but hey...I can't help it that Cameron packs all her technology for a day trip, and Buffy can't carry Willow in her back pocket.) With Willow and Spike in the Slayer's corner, or with a "Primeval"-esque spell--well, to quote a character from a different Joss show, "That has an effect on the landscape." I don't think Cameron could beat the Scoobies as a unit, or Season 4's Super-Buffy. But could she best Buffy alone? I think the answer is clearly yes.
Which is why my question was so relevant: does Buffy have her friends? Because "Primeval"-style UberBuffy would stomp Cameron, and even a basic Willow assist would probably do the trick.

Now I could go the cheesy route of saying, "Well, it's the Scoobies who make Buffy what she is," but that really is a cop-out. On the other hand, disallowing some edges also disallows others; do we allow Buffy any weapons at all? Do we allow Cameron any weapons other than what's built into her? What's the terrain like? The weather?

If you take it that way, ad infinitum, you have the end result of Buffy vs. Cameron fighting each other in a featureless universe, both of them with no allies, no weapons, no tools, and possibly (for the sticklers) no clothes. At which point it becomes a different sort of scenario entirely, and we start debating over whether or not some kind of oil could be involved.

Buffy has faced foes she couldn't pummel before -- notably Caleb. In that fight she simply dodged him until she got to what she wanted. To defeat Cameron, Buffy would have to do some research (is research allowed?), figure out what Cameron wanted, and work that to her advantage. She could, for instance, hold John Connor for ransom, although I doubt she would. If Cameron was simply programmed to kill Buffy, Buffy would use that to her advantage, somehow... not that Cameron would be idle during all this.

Either way, it would be one amazing brawl.
Buffy vs. Cameron, Buffy wins -- all the T's fight straight ahead, while Buffy always dodges, feints and grabs anything at hand. Next season, we'll get a chance to see Cameron vs. Sarah and that's what S. will have to do. Now, Buffy vs. Fray, each with scythes -- wait, that's a different thread.
Now, since the fight is "Buffy vs. Cameron," what I am disallowing is Scooby participation. (Which does rule out a lot of magical intervention on Buffy's behalf, but hey...I can't help it that Cameron packs all her technology for a day trip, and Buffy can't carry Willow in her back pocket.)

Nothing ever rules out magical intervention on Buffy's behalf. The point is that she's a mythic hero, a focal point of power in a world of unseen powers. The whole contest is pretty silly - like Gilgamesh vs. Robby the Robot - but the "Buffy wins because Buffy wins" argument is a real, though drastically simplified, aspect of the mythology. So where is this fight and which world mythology prevails? If it's ours, neither the magic nor the technology works and you're back to Sarah vs. Summer.
Does Gilgamesh have Enkidu ?

Surely since Buffy can't do magic then, without help, she can't use magic in a fight ? If it's one on one without weapons then Cameron has "her" hyper-alloy combat chassis etc. and Buffy has her Slayer strength and accelerated healing etc.

For the fight to make "sense" all we need is a universe where both things are true and, presto, we have one (albeit made up ;).
Well, why don't we just give each of them a gae bolga and tell them to do the heroic salmon leap?

I think that the one thing Buffy has going for her is a very rich mythology built over a long time, which give more credence to her super powers and ability to kick all kinds of ass.

Terminator, on the other hand, is just a story about advanced technology becoming self-aware and taking out the human race, and a person's attempts to stop it. It's all normal humans and machines built by normal humans.
Plus, it's a dystopia of sorts, and we all know that humans eventually end up triumphing in such events. Hence, superhuman slayer wins.

After all, the guys managed to outsmart Hal...
The good terminator always wins in the terminator series... there for Cameron wins because she is a good terminator and they always win.... then die afterwards. Beat that!!! :)

[ edited by xerox on 2008-03-30 00:46 ]
Back to weapons or not. Cameron is a weapon, and she's no doubt got some stuff in her that we don't know about yet. Buffy should automatically be afforded any weapons she wants, as well as anything she can get her hands on during the fight because Cameron can learn. That means the fight tactics for both would be constantly shifting, and that requires exactly the sort of creative combat at which Buffy excells. My money's still on Buffy. I think she would find a way to turn it to her advantage.

BandofBuggered is on to something here though. Sure the Terminator movies are about a dystopia, but the basic premise is that there is still hope. If there wasn't, John wouldn't bother to send anyone back. Following that line of logic, then there is a way to defeat Cameron, and again, Buffy would figure it out. She always does.
[T]he "Buffy wins because Buffy wins" argument is a real, though drastically simplified, aspect of the mythology


I'm all about the drastic simplification route when it works for me. :-)

BAFfler, really I just wanted to write "schmationalization." There, I got to do it again.
Long post. Grr, arrgh.

dreamlogic said:

The whole contest is pretty silly - like Gilgamesh vs. Robby the Robot - but the "Buffy wins because Buffy wins" argument is a real, though drastically simplified, aspect of the mythology.

Actually, every single slayer pre-Buffy, plus Kendra (and for taht matter, Buffy, twice), met a bad end. That was sort of the deal...once you were chosen, you had an "expiration date" coming up soon. Did the other Slayers get magical intervention to save their lives because they were such noble champions?

Buffy keeps beating the odds for two reasons. First, she refuses to play by the rules if she doesn't like them, and will instead change the game until it's something she can win. Second, she gets by with a little help from her friends--when she can't win alone, she has them, and when she died, they brought her back.

The first of these is an inherent trait of Buffy Summers, and one which I would grant her in this fight. But since the fight isn't "Buffy and Friends vs. Cameron," she doesn't get the second.

Saje said:

Surely since Buffy can't do magic then, without help, she can't use magic in a fight ? If it's one on one without weapons then Cameron has "her" hyper-alloy combat chassis etc. and Buffy has her Slayer strength and accelerated healing etc.

For the fight to make "sense" all we need is a universe where both things are true and, presto, we have one (albeit made up ;).

Exactly! (Wait a minute. Did we just agree on something? Hmm...now there's a first...)

BandofBuggered said:

Plus, it's a dystopia of sorts, and we all know that humans eventually end up triumphing in such events.

Oh, yes. Because everything turned out for the best in 1984. And Brave New World. Happy endings both. :) Also, have a look at a movie sometime called Colossus: The Forbin Project.

As for your 2001 reference, do keep in mind that in the process of defeating HAL, all but one of the astronauts died...and HAL wasn't even able to physically confront them. I'm thinking Dave Bowman wouldn't survive a Terminator.

MysticSlug said:

Sure the Terminator movies are about a dystopia, but the basic premise is that there is still hope. If there wasn't, John wouldn't bother to send anyone back.

But hope for what? It's a pretty bleak hope if you stop to think about it. At the end of no Terminator movie has Judgment Day been completely stopped. The best that ever happened, as we saw at the end of Terminator 3, was that it was postponed a few years. One of the characters in that movie (I'm thinking it was Ah-Nuld) specifically said that Judgment Day can't be stopped. When John sends someone back, it is to make sure that he survives so that he can lead humanity to victory. That's all.

The only "hope" expressed by the Terminator movies is that, with the help of the right leader (i.e., John Connor), humanity is capable of surviving a global apocalypse. That doesn't mean humanity will win anything more than a Pyrrhic victory, and (as T3 stated in dialogue) it certainly doesn't guarantee the post-war survival of Connor, humanity's savior. So no, the Terminator mythos doesn't necessarily mean that there is a way to beat Cameron--at least not before she mops the floor with Buffy.

SoddingNancyTribe said:

BAFfler, really I just wanted to write "schmationalization." There, I got to do it again.

Oh. Well, that's all right then. :)
Is it oversimplifying if it fits with the mythology of the hero? Buffy is, per definition, a hero and the mythology says the hero wins. Cameron doesn't win because she isn't a hero, at least not yet. At this point, she's just a 'bot.

And I don't know what schma... means, much less want to type it.
BAFfler, I was referring specifically to technological dystopias--1984 and Brave New World were both about communism and its enherent evils.
Technology, on the other hand, has a more "the humans triumph" theme when it comes to dystopias.

And yes, slayers always eventually lose and meet their ends. However, with Buffy, she has defied this time and again, due to either her friends, magic, her own personality/stubbornness/determination/etc. So already she has an edge in terms of overcoming defeat.

Terminators, on the other hand, always meet their end and are constantly being upgraded...which means that there is always something inherently flawed or beatable about them. Buffy would be able to exploit that. After all, she beat hell out of Malcolm, Ted, Adam, etc.

Phyrric victories? Terminator mythos has them; really only OMWF had a true Phyrric victory in the BuffyVerse. That is, unless you count an episode like "Enemies," where, there was all that relationship stuff.
Okay, I count that.

MysticSlug, shmationalization was SNT's reaction to rationalization.
*Gotta say, it is quite fun to type.
I can't believe that no-one has yet raised the question-

Cameron vs Buffybot?

Cos' I would seriously order that one on pay-per-view.
If Sarah Connor can kill a terminator with a hydraulic press, I see no reason why Buffy can't come up with something herself.
Amen to that, zohrael!
Damn straight, zohrael!

As for Cameron vs. BuffyBot, we did cover that. I think we likened it to throwing a vibrator at a tank. Or a live bee at a puppy. I forget which one.
MysticSlug, again, what about all those previous Slayers who died?

BandofBuggered, I always thought Brave New World was more a response to materialism than anything else. But okay ,point conceded--although I think if you go back and check, you were making a claim about dystopias as a class, and not technological ones per se.

As to the rest of your argument: Buffy doesn't get her friends in this fight. And Malcolm and Ted, being made from modern technology, aren't nearly enough like a Terminator. Adam is closer. However, when Buffy faced him by herself, she got thrashed, and only triumphed with the help of her friends...and since she doesn't have 'em here, I'm liking Cameron.

missb, somebody did bring that up earlier. I think my response was something along the lines of, It would be like a light tank (Cameron) vs. a vibrator (BuffyBot).
Yes, we covered it. There was mention of a vibrator and attachable bunny ears, at which point I began to wonder what kind of thread I was on.

And on that note, I say "Bye All". I'm outa here. Got an essay to finish.
Actually, that was raised, missb. There wasn't a lot of money on it.

BAFFler. There's been a lot of complaint even in the Buffy fandom about Buffy being as lucky as she's been. But that's kind of the point. That's what mythic heroes are.

And I love the Terminator world, but Cameron's not a mythic hero in that. If Buffy loses, the forces of darkness win. If Cameron loses, you break open another crate.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-03-30 03:44 ]
BAFfler, I do grant that I wasn't specific enough in my first dystopia discussion. But I stand by my statement regarding technical dystopias.

Even without friends, I think that Buffy's experience gives her the edge. After all, now that she's trashed Adam (who had a size advantage that Cameron doesn't have), she's got the experience needed to bust a cap in her alloy ass.
Besides, even if here friends weren't there, Willow could give her some mojo to work with, kind of like how Buffy did that thing to Amy in S8. That wasn't her, but it was.

And yeah, BuffyBot doesn't stand a chance; Glory owned her, as did that vamp.
I hope people realize that I was the first person to say that Cameron would win... it seems like everyone keeps referring to BAFfler and not me when arguing against Cameron being victorious... :( I want some acknowledgment here... :(

Cameron would eat Buffy like that corn chip in the pilot!

I just want some attention...

BAFfler, your doing a great! :)
And BaFler drags me back in. The answer is simple, and has already been said. The other slayers played by the rules. Buffy wins because she doesn't play by the rules.

While I'm here, you didn't necessarily prove me wrong about hope in the Terminator movies. I wasn't referring in any way to the survival of John in the end. Hope exists because humanity survives, and that's why he bothers. At this point, we don't know how this comes about, nor do we know if it is actually him that achieves it in the end. Whatever it is, it is entirely plausible that Buffy can figure it out.

Really, this time I have to go.
zohrael, you're missing a major event that weakened that Terminator to the point where Sarah Connor could take it out. Again, let me quote myself from earlier.

"It took two people with guns, a bunch of factory machines, a truck crash (emphasis added), and some dumb luck to beat the first Terminator."

If that Terminator hadn't been limping at the start of the factory sequence due to the truck crash, Sarah Connor would have been so much organic waste littering the floor. If Reese hadn't turned on the machines to make them harder to track, same thing. If her blind flight hadn't led her to crawl through the press, same thing. Basically, Sarah Connor only won because she was smart enough to recognize the biggest lucky break in the world when it was handed to her, deus-ex-machina style. (No pun intended.) I'm sure Buffy could have beaten Adam by herself too, if he had crawled through a hydraulic press while limping after her. But that didn't happen.

You, and the others who have taken up your position, seem to be positing that all the luck would be on Buffy's side. (Some have even made the argument for Buffy winning just because she's the hero, or, y'know, Buffy...like heroes always win, and like she's never lost before!) I thought the whole point was "BUFFY VS. CAMERON." Even playing field and all that. In such a situation, I have no doubt that Cameron wins. Now if you guys keep insisting that the deck starts out stacked in Buffy's favor because of who she is, then you can make a case for Buffy winning. But that just ain't fair.
xerox officially gets credit for being the first person that said Cameron would win. In fact, xerox inspired me to keep fighting as long as I have. Go, xerox!

MysticSlug, I was the one who said Buffy doesn't play by the rules! But as has been shown before, that isn't always enough. She needs her friends for when that tendency fails her. (In fact, in "Chosen," it was only because she HAD Willow that she was able to break the rules one last time, and permanently change the rules of the Buffyverse from "One girl in all the world" to "Every girl who can stand up, will stand up." And may I tip my hat to Joss, who pinpointed the perfect way to close the show.) She doesn't have her friends here. So Cameron wins.

BandofBuggered, given that I haven't been following S8, I'm at a disadvantage there. But Buffy beat Adam because she merged with her friends to create a super-entity that had Willow's magical abilities, Giles's occult/linguistic knowledge, and Buffy's Slayer essence (and Xander!)...all so that she could out-magic Adam for long enough to have a crack at removing that uranium. If you want to argue that this somehow gives her the "experience" she needs to take out Cameron, go ahead, but I can't for the life of me imagine where you get that from.
How will you create an even playing field? Have you ever found a game that was actually fair in real life?
And I love the Terminator world, but Cameron's not a mythic hero in that. If Buffy loses, the forces of darkness win. If Cameron loses, you break open another crate.

I think the whole Slayer mythology suggests that individual Slayers are pretty expendable. I agree with you, but I think the forces of darkness do win against individual Slayers quite often, in the long view.

In the short view, Buffy will survive, one way or the other, because a Terminator is just an obstacle in her path. It's not her purpose. Buffy might lose the fight, but there's no way a robot will kill a Slayer. Not even an awesome robot. Demons kill Slayers.

Ubervamps are still creatures of biology.

Being undead, they're really not.
So then, it wasn't very obvious that I didn't actually read the other comments? ;-)

I was probably too busy sniggering at this description of Buffy-

"Talk about a chick who doesn't go down easy."
You know what I would like to see? Ender Wiggin versus River Tam. That would be a cool fight.

As for Buffy's experience fighting Adam, I just mean that she's already going to know what she's up against in terms of a super advanced robot foe. So she's going to do her prep work and get the scoobies to give her advance help. She'd be pre-mojoed.
And I agree with Sunfire. Robots just don't kill slayers. That's perverse and wrong.

Hah, missb! I can't help but wonder whether or not that was intentional...
dreamlogic: That's your criticism? Seriously?

Sunfire: Ubervamps, being vampires, have flesh, bone, and blood, as opposed to Terminators, who are creatures of metal and who only need flesh and blood when they're undercover. That was my point re: "creatures of biology."

Okay. I've said enough to make my case, and most of the criticisms lately have either been repeats of ones I addressed earlier, or comments whose germane-ness I can't see. Either I've convinced a few people, or I haven't. So unless I see an argument that I think I need to respond to, I'm departing. I have a life...I think...
Okay, how about Cameron Vs Glory?

Glory was super strong and virtually indestructable, very similiar to a Terminator but also had super speed, something that we've never seen Cameron, or Arnie, do. Off the top of my head I can't even remember Arnie's Terminator, in T1, 3 or 3 actually running at human speed let alone superfast. I remember the T1000 running in T2 but he's a whole different kettle of fish.
Sunfire: Ubervamps, being vampires, have flesh, bone, and blood, as opposed to Terminators, who are creatures of metal and who only need flesh and blood when they're undercover. That was my point re: "creatures of biology."

Vampires are demons wearing a dead, animated body so that they can walk around among their prey. They too are undercover, pretending to be biological. But they're not. That's why crosses and holy water burn. There's nothing truly biological about them. The stake to the heart is more about symbolism and magic than it is about biology-- their hearts are long dead and nonfunctional. Puncturing them in the equally dead lung should be about as effective. They wear a bit of biology (pretty biology, for Whedon-vamps, and partially functional for the sexy drama), but that's very different from being creatures of it. If they were, they'd die from the same things humans do, since that's the biology of the body they wear. I don't think it's all that dissimilar to a Terminator, really. Neither is human, and both pretend to be when needed. What's truly different is the thing underneath.
I was arguing at the end not about, or not only about the characters, but about us. If you want to challenge me at chess or any other game that can be played online, let's do it.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-03-30 04:49 ]

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-03-30 04:49 ]
This fight is simple. Slayer by a nose punch.
I don't like Buffy fighting Cameron. I like Willow re-programming Cameron so that she turns her skills toward fighting demons (because that whole Skynet problem has been taken care of) so that Cameron becomes a cool new Scoobie.
That would be nice. But I don't think it's valid. See above.
I had to vote for Buffy here. Cameron just "isn't giving me anything I can work with" I am happy to admit that I like the world in balance, and for me that means humans win. I have to say your comments were cracking me up!
Ah, I suck. Even when I have valid arguments, I end up trying to intimidate people.
Only need 3 words to answer this:

Buffy beat Glory.


If Buffy can defeat a god, I know she would demolish a terminator. Think about it, what would Glory do to Cameron? Our lovely cyborg would be dismantled in less than a minute.
Well, I need more than three words: magic hammer, vampire assistant, telepathic magic wielding friend, wrecking ball wielding friend, plus sundry others (because those are the things Buffy needed to beat Glory).

Exactly! (Wait a minute. Did we just agree on something? Hmm..now there's a first...)

Don't worry BaFfler, i'm sure it's just a one off, the space-time continuum is safe ;-).

If Sarah Connor can kill a terminator with a hydraulic press, I see no reason why Buffy can't come up with something herself.

OK, there must be something ambiguous about "one on one without weapons". How about hand to hand, unarmed ? Or head to head without, y'know, big frikkin' hydraulic presses ! ;-)

BTW, xerox et al, I humbly refer you to my first post on the thread (and the second post in the thread). You can still be the official first one to say it if you like, so long as I get the royalties ;).

dreamlogic, you need to see it as a thought experiment where we have an infinite (level ;) plain on which are 1) Cameron and 2) Buffy. Cameron only "has" her universe with her in as much as it's encapsulated in her own form, experiences etc. and it's the same for Buffy. Both are unarmed, both only know about the other what they can surmise themselves. They then fight. Who wins ?

It's really that simple, there's no heroic mythology or technological dystopias to take into account (interesting though they may be to talk about ;).

(after you decide that one, you can start to add stuff in - weapons, friends etc. - to see where it goes. Among comics readers it's a game that's as old as, well, comics readers ;)
Gotta go with Buffy. Ingenuity is her middle name and Cameron is (so far, at least) not big with the on-the-fly strategy.
As of now: Buffy 55%, Cameron 44%.
Could Cameron beat Angel, or any other vampire for that matter? Assuming she doesn't know the story behind a vampire, she wouldn't be able to kill one, so long as they weren't out in the sunlight. She *could* rip their head off, but how would she know that ripping the head off/stakes/sunlight kill vamps, y'know?
Now, if it were a dance-off, Cameron would win hands down. (I guess that sounds more like gymnastics than dance.)
Buffy has already wiped the floor with at least three robots. so as hot as Cameron is I still go with Buffy for the win.

I assume Buffy will bring a rocket launcher or something.

One way or another I would really love to watch the fight. and I never really thought about it before but really all they need to take care of this whole Skynet thing is the Scooby gang. I'm sure that Ben/Glory was quite a lot tougher.
*I* assume Buffy will win. Yay ! Buffy wins ! ;-)

Cameron is just going to keep trying to kill Angel/Spike/whomever until something she tries works and she'll obviously never tire or have to worry about sunlight or food. Eventually, I guess she's going to get around to separating head from body. How long is it going to take them to try making an incision at the right place in her scalp, turning the cap anti-clockwise and extracting her CPU ?
[W]e have an infinite (level ;) plain on which are 1) Cameron and 2) Buffy. Cameron only "has" her universe with her in as much as it's encapsulated in her own form, experiences etc. and it's the same for Buffy. Both are unarmed, both only know about the other what they can surmise themselves. They then fight. Who wins ?


Much as I hate to quibble, we're not actually given these parameters - in fact, we're never given any decisional rules in these "X fights Y" things, so every condition of the contest is up for grabs. Why can't Buffy have her friends? That's part of who she is. So is the heroic mythology aspect as recited by dreamlogic. Which is why I tend to treat the exercise as less than a debate that can be won, and more as a laugh.
dreamlogic, you need to see it as a thought experiment where we have an infinite (level ;) plain on which are 1) Cameron and 2) Buffy. Cameron only "has" her universe with her in as much as it's encapsulated in her own form, experiences etc. and it's the same for Buffy. Both are unarmed, both only know about the other what they can surmise themselves. They then fight. Who wins ?

Buffy can spot robots instantly, and is indifferent to them unless they cause trouble on her turf. Cameron only attacks according to her programming. I think you're going to have to make some more universe.
Err, what ? "They then fight", that's the whole purpose of the contest. You can obviously say "But they wouldn't fight" but that isn't what an imaginary fight is all about, yes ? I would say in fact that the one assumption built into an imaginary fight is ... they fight ;).

Course it's a laugh SNT but people were getting het up over it so I thought i'd try to add some perspective. And the reason it's a laugh is because of the debate - if it was just a list of "I think Cameron would win" or "I think Buffy would win" it'd be without any point at all.

... in fact, we're never given any decisional rules in these "X fights Y" things ...

Right, yet all I see are assumptions for Buffy. Buffy has weapons, Buffy has friends, Buffy adapts when Cameron (a machine specifically designed to adapt and infiltrate) somehow doesn't. OK, I assume magic doesn't work on Cameron and she brings 1000 other Terminators with her. Great. Ad hoc assumptions make it not only less fun IMO but also (even more ;) futile. Hence my (joky) questions about who has what - in these pretend match ups you always have to sort out the parameters at the start, you don't just assume them because you'd rather Buffy won.

And is the contest 'Buffy and Friends with a pre-prepared strategy and weapons vs Cameron alone, ignorant and unarmed' ? No, so why multiply entities beyond necessity ? Why add stuff that isn't suggested by the title 'Buffy vs Cameron' ?
I'm sorry, Saje. It got a little out of hand.
Well, in Buffy vs. Dracula, the friends all are there (though Xander is the buttmonkey), but the title doesn't necessarily say "Buffy and her friends and commando-guy boyfriend vs. Dracula with his hypnotic powers and transmogrification powers and owing Spike 10 quid..."

So Buffy vs. Cameron can be anything and everything we want. Personally, I'd like to see the rocket launcher again. Or maybe the troll hammer. I wonder how Cameron would react to that taser-gun thing?

If it really were pure hand-to-hand, no weapons of any sort--by this, I mean none of those fun attachment thingies that Terminators always inevitably have--I still say Buffy wins. Human ingenuity versus robot reflexes. There's still gotta be something said for the human brain.
I just need to say: I love you all. That's nearly 100 comments on this issue of great importance, to us. That being said - Buffy. She has the heart necessary where as it's slightly lacking for Cameron.
Doesn't feel like an apology is necessary dreamlogic (ta though ;) folk've got wound up over less before and will again, no doubt.

Well, in Buffy vs. Dracula, the friends all are there

You're kidding, right ? Or are you really saying that the title of that episode is meant to be descriptive rather than a homage to the old "meets" or "versus" monster movies (e.g. 'Frankenstein meets Wolfman' or 'Godzilla vs Mothra') or even, in fact, to imaginary contests like this one (which have been around much longer than Buffy or the internet) ?

So Buffy vs. Cameron can be anything and everything we want.

As I say, so can Cameron then. In my version she has an everything proof shield and an army of similarly equipped Terminator soldiers. And it's Cameron for the win ;).

Human ingenuity versus robot reflexes. There's still gotta be something said for the human brain.

Like "It's vulnerable to being squished" you mean ? How does Buffy even hurt Cameron with just her bare hands, no matter how ingenious she is ? How does she run away when Cameron is faster and has better stamina than even a Slayer ? How does her skull withstand punches that are like being hit by a small JCB ?

I respect and share people's affection for the Buffster, I really do but we've reached a stage now where you could detonate a nuke beside her and she'd "ingenuity" her way out of it. I think we're having trouble separating what we want to happen from facts about the limitations of flesh and bone, even Slayer enhanced flesh and bone and so I think i'll follow BaFfler's example and bow out (Jeez, maybe the space-time continuum really is in jeopardy ;).

Good thread everyone ;).
One thing we're forgetting in this discussion is that we've already seen Cameron herself defeat another Terminator in hand-to-hand combat, by basically hitting it three times with a steel pipe, wrapping the pipe around its neck and pinning it until she could pull out its CPU. Buffy's fought and won much harder battles than that...

Granted, she'd have to know about the CPU; but one of her special abilities is noticing things like that just in the nick of time, and realising how to exploit the opportunity. If Cameron gets her hyper-alloy endoskeleton, Buffy ought to get her luck.
one of her special abilities is noticing things like that just in the nick of time, and realising how to exploit the opportunity


Or is that a special ability of Giles-with-books or Willow-with-computer?
A terminator is a machine and therefore lacks the crucial advantage. Imagination. Say the two start to fight, and both find the other far stronger than either had expected. Suddenly both are in the territory of having to work out how to win against a difficult opponent. In this situation, Buffy is going to prevail every time. She can make intuitive leaps, imagine strategies, visualise possibilities for defeating her adversary which the terminator, even with its advanced programming, is just never going to see. I really can't see any scenario where the terminator is going to win, unless Buffy is having a very, very bad day.
How does one luck into noticing in the nick of time that a machine can be disabled by removing its cpu that's on top of it's skull? I suppose Buffy could assume it would be in the head somewhere. Ok, so Buffy rips all the hair and flesh from Cameron's skull (with her bare hands of course). She'd then have to pry off the cap and twist out the cpu with her fingernails. This is after she's caused Cameron to reboot. And while she's looking for a way out of this strange battle dome, she discovers that she hasn't destroyed Cameron after all and only got a two minute reprieve. Ok, so she has to knock her out again. And again. And again, until she luckily realizes what to do. Assuming she managed to stay alive. Then she proceeds to take out her cpu. With her bare hands and fingernails. I wish the Buffster lots and lots of luck.

Wait, I know how she'll do it! Buffy will use Cameron's bare hands and fingernails to disable herself. Victory! You guys are right: ingenuity saves the day! (Forget that Cameron needed tools to do this to other terminators. She just didn't want to break a fingernail in front of John.) ;)
Woah! I seem to have provoked some of Saje's ire!

Yes, I was kidding about the whole "Buffy vs. Dracula" thing; I was just making a point that a title doesn't need imply anything at all. If someone were to argue Superman vs. Batman, of course it would include all of Bats's special little trinkets. He's not Batman without them, just as Buffy is everything in her life that's a part of her...including the scoobies.

BTW, I asked all three of my siblings (two of whom are adults with lives; one teenager), and they all gave the edge to the Buffster. So I allowed them to live.

Okay, I really, really, need to stop this and do homework, so I'm going to *probably* stop this now, but it's been much fun. I love that we can spend days and and a hundred posts on a topic like this. Does the heart good.
Thanks BAFfler! :)
I just kind of felt left out...
Good thread indeed!! I have to add that when Buffy was explaining to Kendra why she would beat her she claimed her emotions "are total assets" and Cameron has none. Which is also why I give the edge to Buffy, she is "resourceful" according to Spike. I think that combination, not the Scoobies is what will give her the edge. It would be a great fight to watch though...
Buffy because

1. She beat Glory
2. She beat Adam
3. She always wins in the end
4. because I said so!
As as Spike also said, Buffy is "the one". Um, not to be confused with Keanu Reeves/Neo .... whole different "the one". :)
"Let's push Buffy and Cameron aside for a moment... In a fight who would win Sarah Michelle Gellar or Summer Glau?"

Good ? xerox, I'm glad you posed it.

I'd say Summer b/c she is physically more fit that SMG. SMG did take martial arts but Summer has been a dancer most of her life and lately with all the kick ass sci fi roles is learning to modify dance moves into fight moves.


Now in the IGN Chick fight thing...I voted the Buffster all the way.
56.4% in favour of the Buffster at the moment, this is a done deal. Next.

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