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April 02 2008

The top ten things we'd like to see in Buffy and Angel comics. IFMagazine has a list of Buffyverse characters that they'd like to see appear in Buffy Season 8 and Angel: After The Fall.

1.) THE RETURN OF TARA & JOYCE
No thanks for Tara and only in a visionary sense for Joyce
2.) ANYANKA COMES BACK - A RETURN TO A DOPPELGANGLAND TYPE WORLD FOR A FEW ISSUES
Hmm... I dont think so.
3.) BUFFY CROSSES PATHS WITH RILEY FINN AND SAM AGAIN
Yes definately, although if the goss that Twilight is Riley are true his return is already planned.
4.) OZ COMES BACK INTO THE FOLD
YES YES and YES... This HAS to happen, I can see openings for his return in both comics.
5.) BUFFY FINDS OUT SPIKE IS ALIVE & HAS TO DEAL WITH HIM AND ANGEL
Well duh! But yeh this is a definate occurence but i dont think anything substantial will happen until the end of Angel ATF and Spike ATF.
6.) DRU COMES BACK TO AVENGE SPIKEíS DEATH
Even though I do love Dru I dont really see her returning to avenge his death.If Joss came up with a more reasonable reason for her return id be cool with it.
7.) BUFFY MEETS ANGELíS SON CONNOR
Eh, leave it to fanfic I say.
8.) SLAYERETTES IN HELL
THis made me think of something... There would have had to be some newly-slayered slayers inside LA while it went all hell demensiony. I dont really see any sort of obvious crossover with Buffys army entering Hell-A but i think this could be referred to at least.
9.) THE RETURN OF WOLFRAM & HART ROME BRANCH
Eh... would be pointless and forced.
10.) LINDSEY & LILAH GET TO COME TO HELL
nope theyve both had there great runs and returns, leave it at that.
There was a reference in the last issue about Wolfram & Hart resurrecting Lindsey or Lilah to serve in Wesley’s place.


Lilah? I thought it was Eve. *goes to check* Yep, I'm right and they're wrong. Long live obsessiveness! ;) It’s a word, I don’t care what my Word spellchecker says.

Also, what they said about Oz, we all know he's coming back. And most of us have a feeling (knowledge) about Riley as well. I love Dru to come back, but in a crossover, that way the pretty square is in place. No for the Spuffy, Bangel, Spangel threesome! Adult convo is a big yes. An even bigger one is Spike and Angel showing Buffy's same-sex slayer experiment up and showing her how vamps get it on!

People to show that haven't been mentioned: 1. Clem 2. Willy 3. Whistler 4. Anne... and I'm sure there are more, but my brain is a total blank right now. Oh, and Lorne's psychic friend, what's her name that told him to go back to Pylea, whatever happened to her?

BUFFY MEETS ANGEL’S SON CONNOR
She might've not met him, but wasn't there a deleted scene in the end of S7 where Buffy mentions Connor to Angel (she probably heard about it from Willow)?

[ edited by Mirage on 2008-04-02 10:31 ]
Proof, yet again, that Joss has a good sense of storytelling for this universe - and random blogs do not. Pretty much every one of those ideas sucks.
THE RETURN OF TARA

According to Scott Allie, Tara won't be back because her death scene was "pretty final." Y'know, unlike Warren's. Besides, enough with the resurrection of dead people already.

BUFFY FINDS OUT SPIKE IS ALIVE & HAS TO DEAL WITH HIM AND ANGEL

Since the two comics seem to go out of their way to ignore each other completely, I doubt it. Though I'd like to see Buffy deal with Spike-and-Angel, know what I mean, nudge nudge.

BUFFY MEETS ANGELíS SON CONNOR

What on earth for?

SLAYERETTES IN HELL

Still not convinced Spider's gang isn't exactly that.

THE RETURN OF WOLFRAM & HART ROME BRANCH

Yes, because there can NEVER be too much funny-foreigner humour.
Tara, please. Sure, it's probably a bad idea, but I want it anyway.
The number one thing I'd like to see in the comics is...

(drum roll)

THE WORLD WITH NOTHING BUT SHRIMP!

Lynch could totally pull it off! I mean, now that Illyria has her time-shifty powers back, who is to say she can't also open up the portals between worlds?

:-P
I second that shrimp-world wish!
Heehee, but only for a panel or two...you know, 'cause we'd probably tire of it quickly.
BUFFY FINDS OUT SPIKE IS ALIVE & HAS TO DEAL WITH HIM AND ANGEL: Still waiting for the final round like Buffy mentioned in season 7 when Spike beat the Angel-scribble. And just thinking about the possible dialogs...so much fun!

But as i stated in an other post: some more xy-chromosomes in the Buffy-comic are really needed. Just Xander and Andrew and particularly Giles among 500 slayerettes and our three girls: not a good ratio!
1.) THE RETURN OF TARA & JOYCE
They should bring Tara back then Tara should kill Kennedy, not like anyone actually likes her. Oh and I loved Joyce but I don't see where she would fit in.

2.) ANYANKA COMES BACK - A RETURN TO A DOPPELGANGLAND TYPE WORLD FOR A FEW ISSUES
Anya should come back, Andrew is funny but Anya is funnier.

3.) BUFFY CROSSES PATHS WITH RILEY FINN AND SAM AGAIN
No more Riley, he was so...blah.

4.) OZ COMES BACK INTO THE FOLD
I liked Oz so okay, oooo bring Tara and Oz back that would make a great story.

5.) BUFFY FINDS OUT SPIKE IS ALIVE & HAS TO DEAL WITH HIM AND ANGEL
That would be cool.

6.) DRU COMES BACK TO AVENGE SPIKEíS DEATH
Don't see Dru returning to avenge his death but it would be great to have her back.

7.) BUFFY MEETS ANGELíS SON CONNOR
Erm no, I really didn't like Connor.

8.) SLAYERETTES IN HELL
I'm not reading after the fall so...

9.) THE RETURN OF WOLFRAM & HART ROME BRANCH
No.

10.) LINDSEY & LILAH GET TO COME TO HELL
No.
If it already happened--ignore this. I am behind 2 issues due to the timing of available stock.

But...ever since the "government taking an interest" plot line I've been wondering if Marcie Ross and her cohorts could make an appearance. (S1 Out of Sight, Out of Mind)

It was such a lovely dangling thread.
Anthoer scenario: put Buffy, Angel, Spike, Anya an Dru in a discussion-group with Giles as host and comments by Andrew.

Everyone take cover: sarcasm-overload!
mark said:
They should bring Tara back then Tara should kill Kennedy, not like anyone actually likes her.

(raises hand) You'd think by now, people in this fandom would have learned to stop speaking for everybody...
Well I'm just glad IFMagazine isn't writing the stories. Both series would have no time for anything except surprise revivals of dead characters, the return of characters we've not seen for ages and epic Buffy/Angel crossovers.
Both series would have no time for anything except surprise revivals of dead characters, the return of characters we've not seen for ages and epic Buffy/Angel crossovers.


Well your first two points are kinda happening anyhow.
(raises hand) You'd think by now, people in this fandom would have learned to stop speaking for everybody...


It's the truth, who actually liked Kennedy?
Tara for sure. That would make my decade.

Beergood, no matter how many times I read what Scott Allie said, it is NOT completely clear that he is dismissing the possibility. And if he is going on what he thinks Joss said, well, Joss does change his mind. Telling us no would certainly make a "yes" down the road carry more force. Remember, they also told us, quite clearly, that Tara was going nowhere.
Tara coming back would make me so happy.
I think it's a horrible idea to bring anyone back from the dead just to satiate the desire of fans. If it was written well and had importance to the current story, sure, why not. But not just character returns for the sake of character returns. Especially with Joyce: bringing her character back would really cheapen her story arc, the poignance of "The Body", as well as the effect that her death had on the Scoobies, particularly Buffy and Dawn.

Drusilla returning, however, would be amazing! I've always wondered what happened to her post-Buffy Season 5 and Angel Season 2.
Buffy + Connor 4evars

But seriously, let's see how many people are likely to come back from the dead.

So far Season eight has had one ret-conned death: Warren Mears.

And After the Fall has had one ressurection (Wesley Wyndham-Price), and one teaser of a ressurection: .

[ edited by The Londinium Sun on 2008-04-02 13:04 ]
It's the truth, who actually liked Kennedy?

*raises hand* But of course, having Tara kill someone to get Willow back would be completely in character. :-/

well, Joss does change his mind

Good point. I just tend to think that bringing Warren back was the final nail in the coffin of death in the Buffyverse; if that's not final, then there is no such thing as a final death, and then the only reason not to bring dead characters back is because you don't want to - which, of course, is a perfectly valid reason. I'd rather see them deal with deaths than undoing them, personally.
Well, my Tara love knows no bounds - I'm as obsessed as any other obsessed person but I didn't not like Kennedy and I betcha I'm not alone.

And I do not want Tara back. Seriously, what is she going to do? Hang around in the background like the majority of S5?
I just tend to think that bringing Warren back was the final nail in the coffin of death in the Buffyverse ...

I agree, I think it's high time death in the Buffyverse was resurrected.
Why are people so opposed to Conner in the Buffy comic? It was a missed opportunity in the shows, and Angel having a son is really something I think Buffy would want to be a part of.
If they went with the story Joss has already detailed for the return of Tara then I'd be okay with that. I always thought it was a shame that they didn't go with it in season seven. I'm certainly no Kennedy hater but it would have been much better to see Tara standing alongside Willow for that final scene in Chosen, I reckon.

As for the other options, yes to Oz returning and maybe yes to the Riley and Sam thing (because I don't particularly like the whole theory of Riley being Twilight) but pretty much just a meh! to all the rest.
I think Tara coming back as Joss has mentioned only works as a totally out of the blue event. Now that we know it'd be naff IMO (she could come back some other way I guess but it's not something I particularly feel the need to see happen).

Yep to Oz, a few of the others could be good if done well and in a way that they actually add to the story but considered in isolation none of them exactly thrill me to be honest.

... Angel having a son is really something I think Buffy would want to be a part of.

Why ? Because of how ex-lovers are always a part of raising a child that's got nothing to do with them ?

She might want to meet him out of curiosity but I don't see why she'd want to become a part of his life. There might be some cheap comedy mileage in her fancying him only to find out he's Angel's son (and also about 4 in our timeline ;) but storywise I don't really see the appeal.
But, y'see, people only really take issue with bringing the dead back, but so far this comic has brought all sorts of people back- Amy, Warren, Ethan Rayne. Interestingly, we have yet to see Kennedy, though she is there. We know Oz is coming, and it is possible that Riley may as well. So why get all bent if Tara gets added to that mix? I think this has more to do with the fact that nearly everyone has staked a position out on her return (me included, of course) than whether or not Joss writes a good return, because I sure don't see anyone really crying because Oz'll be back.
Were Amy, Ethan, Riley or Oz dead ? So what's that got to do with the price of fish ?

I don't really care if Tara comes back, so long as it's done well BUT there is a part of me that thinks she should stay dead so that a) we have at least one really dead character in the mix and b) the idea doesn't spread that if you complain enough eventually you can coerce a creator into doing things (and everyone here knows that some people will see it that way, and also that some will see it as Joss finally "admitting" he was wrong to kill her at all).

[ edited by Saje on 2008-04-02 14:13 ]
Also, we saw Kennedy quite clearly in #10.
How do we know that Warren actually died? Am I the only one who ever wondered why they never found his body? (Leaving myself wide open for the question as to why none of the other bodies were ever found, yeah, yeah..)
You're probably right that the original plan for Tara's return is a 'ship that has now sailed, Saje. It may be that it would have only really worked within the context of the events of season seven. Definitely a missed opportunity, though.
Oh yeah, it would have been a really lovely, emotive moment if we'd seen it unspoiled.

How do we know that Warren actually died?

Because The First "wore" him (it only appeared as people that had died). Joss has since basically admitted that he "forgot" that though i.e. even Big Purple makes mistakes ;).
The first also wore Buffy, and she died and came back. Why not Warren, too? This doesn't bother me really.

As for the list, Tara and Joyce should both stay physically dead. I can't see Joyce coming back to give guidance to the slayerettes. She never really got involved with the slaying. But Tara could come back in spirit and advise on magical matters.

Oz is a done deal. Joss said he's coming back.
I'd say there was an easy get-around with Warren's death. Amy is simply lying to him about the fact she saved his life and she has somehow been animating his deceased corpse in a similar fashion she did to her zombie army in Scotland. Fits into everything we have seen so far anyway. It's not as if a person has to be dead and gone for The First to take their form, as we saw when he appeared as both Buffy and Dru. Just a little bit dead is fine. ;)
Yeah, there're numerous fan-wanks. If Joss hadn't actually admitted to it then we'd all just assume Amy brought him back the same way Willow brought Buffy back (or some other similar way).

The difference with Buffy is, we saw her come back so we don't have to fan-wank around it, with Warren we do (unless and until Joss writes a little flash-back sequence into the continuity to explain what happened).

(though I always wondered, was The First "wearing" Buffy from the first time she "died" - when Xander revived her - or from the second time in 'The Gift' when you could say she really died, all the way ?)
An enthusiastic thumbs-up to a Spike/Buffy/Angel reunion, a mild "okay" to an Oz and Drusilla return -- maybe Riley, too, if they find something interesting to do with him -- and a big fat "NO" to everything else. To me, Warren was the last straw when it comes to resurrections in the Buffyverse, and IF's suggestions seem more fit for a wish-fulfillment fanfic than they do for canon.
Oh, God. When I saw this wasn't just simply a list in a fan's livejournal, I clicked hoping to be juiced by a really interesting plot exploration that proposed cool ideas that we'd never even considered. (Entirely new, or sweet tie-ins, like BreathesStory's Marcy idea.) Instead, it felt like tumbling down the rabbit-hole-of-dear-god-please-god-not-this-again doom. Forgive me for saying so, but this dragged me down into the same weariness I feel when wading through those painful 'shippy entitlement threads of piss where we're convinced the "mistakes" made must be undone, or only we can truly appreciate/loathe Spike's story with enough vigor/venom, or how third-parties are not giving us what we "deserve," etc.

I might have peaked in high school, but sitting in my rumpus room in a pizza delivery cap exaggerating the glory days might just mean I'm stuck in the past. I can't help wondering with so much desire to retread the worn paths and undo the old, whether people just would have preferred that things never evolved past ((insert favorite season/plot point here.)) Mummy hand, anyone?

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2008-04-02 15:16 ]
Well, I for one appreciate that somebody finally came up with a list which included TARA as the first item (not the 20th, or totally forgotten). I would also bring her back much different than when she left, although not unkindly so. I think Tara could be a changed, pivotal figure in Season 8, not just relegated to, "Oh, yeah, and Willow's girlfriend over here, the shy one hiding behind her hair."

I'd also like to see Amber Benson write for Tara again, as she did in the two Willow and Tara comics.

I've had a lot of ideas in regard to this subject. It's a fascination of mine (probably too much so, but hey, it's my mind). If only I could figure out some way to channel my brain waves into Joss, and get him to...

Oh well, I give up. Joss is like a cat. You can't herd cats.

[ edited by quantumac on 2008-04-02 15:17 ]
Saje, I'd guess you are supposed to assume that The First could wear Buffy's form because she was dead and buried at the end of season five but I'd say that if her quickie death in Prophecy Girl was enough to fool the slayer line then it would have been enough for The First too.

These damned eternal forces of evil. So quick to blur the lines of who has died just so they can take on their form. Honestly, a nasty paper cut will qualify you for death's door next. ;)
I do miss Anya. I think she added a lot to the core story just by being around to comment on things in a very Anya way and occasionally cause trouble. But that's different from wanting her to come back. I would like to see D'Hoffryn make an appearance at some point. But that's just because I think he's fantastic. I very much doubt he'd really fit into the story anytime soon.
Hmm, I *think* the plurality here favors most of the suggestions in the article, especially now I've added a vote by posting on it *g. (A fan journalist who thinks a lot like me; who'da thunk it?)

If anyone wants a suggestion on Joyce (of whom I never *really* thought before,he lies) it was mentioned in soem of the novelizations that defunct SLayer Lucy Hanover was acting as guide for people whose business one arth was properly finished hbut got lost and unable to move on to the true afterlife. Maybe Joyce (along with Jennie and Theresa,) considering her mothering heart, is doing that. ALtho I personnaly wouldn't want to be the writer charged with it.

I dunno, something on this board lately is reminding me of reading the letters pages in MArvel comics in the 70s and 80s and getting annoyed. Can't quite put my finger on what it is, and it doesn't apply to everybody
The only thing I want to see is a conversation between Xander and Faith. Never gonna happen unfortunately.
Hmm, I *think* the plurality here favors most of the suggestions in the article, especially now I've added a vote by posting on it *g.

Hmm, as well as a universe of shrimp, is there also one where "*think*" means "have made up the idea that" ? ;-) Cos it really doesn't seem to me like the majority favour any of those suggestions except Oz's return DaddyCatALSO.

... if her quickie death in Prophecy Girl was enough to fool the slayer line then it would have been enough for The First too.

Yeah, that's what I kind of figured Highlander, in which case Warren is an even easier fan-wank (because, though it seemed a safe assumption, we don't know for a fact that he actually died died).

Well, I for one appreciate that somebody finally came up with a list which included TARA as the first item (not the 20th, or totally forgotten).

Yeah, it's about time the Tara fans had a chance to air their grievances !

;-)
Ideas are cheap - it's all about how the ideas are realized. So while any of these could be written well and move the story forward, at this point they all look like easy red meat for fans. I think the comics are doing a brilliant job as they are.
Top five things I would like to see in Seasons 8 and 9:

1. D'Hoffryn.
2. Amy breaks up with Warren. Deadly magical drama ensues.
3. Clem, in a musical role.
4. Zombie pirates.
5. Batman.

Top five things I would actually like to see:

1. What Giles and Faith are up to on occasion.
2. Dawn continuing to undermine our assumptions about her.
3. More insight on what kind of a leader Andrew really is.
4. Some realization from Buffy about her continuing tendency to hide much of her uncertainty and vulnerability from her friends.
5. Willow wearing less Ren Faire stuff.
Okay, what I really want to see is NOT gratuitous character revival. What I REALLY, REALLY want to see is some nice meaty evolution in our actual existing character's lives--AKA growing up. *coughBuffy* They are in their 20's now, have lived through apocalypsi(?) etc., and presumably have had some down time to process it all.

After all the BtVS 'verse wasn't monster of the week. It was about answering the question how does one live.

I know it is all moving slow due to the 4books=1episode thing and I am trying, but a comic is not a t.v. show. I love comics. It's just that everything in a comic becomes so much weightier due to the medium and a throw away funny/clever line on the show has a tendency to assume so much greater importance in a book. I want a bit more substance and so far I am just not feeling it. Maybe it is just me.

And please don't give me a list of all the wonderful things that Joss et. al. did write. I'm not blind. It just still feels a bit thin.
Love your actual list, Sunfire... bonus points for #5. :)
I like Sunfire's no. 3.

I'm imagining something like in 'The Office' US where you have Michael who seems to be a bumbling loser but actually turns out, in his own slightly off-kilter way, to be a hell of a salesman.

(and in my ideal world, Giles and Faith would show up in some of the single non-arc issues - OK, in my really ideal world they get their own spin-off but barring that ... ;)
I want to start by saying - this is just my opinion and no one need get up in arms about it....

I think bringing Tara back would be a TERRIBLE idea. Tara died - and it was tragic and horrible and it made me very sad. But I feel like her death was meant to be permanent. Tara died a very human death. People get shot every day. It's not like she jumped into mystical energy or something. It's the same for Joyce. They are both gone - and existing in some heavenly dimension I'm sure. We all know how ripping Buffy from her heavenly dimenions turned out.

As for the rest - with the exception of bringing Oz back (which as people have already stated, is most likely going to happen) and Riley coming back - most of what is listed is just silly.

[ edited by missmuffet on 2008-04-02 16:35 ]
I'm imagining something like in 'The Office' US where you have Michael who seems to be a bumbling loser but actually turns out, in his own slightly off-kilter way, to be a hell of a salesman.

Or an evil salesman doing a sub-par job because he's really a spy working for Twilight. Or is Twilight. You never really know with Andrew.
Yeah, it's the sort of thing he'd do because he thought Buffy's "story" needed a proper villain.
Saje; I admit I was never good at arithmetic but it seemed leaning that way to me.
And, well some amongst us over here are aware of how much noise we've made (soem of us aren't) but I think the feelings of gratitude (gratification?) were from somebody in the "fan establishment" seeming to at last reflect it back at us.

PS If Tara returns, hey, Kensuko (Satseddy?) as a consolation 'ship? Or would that be ghetto-izing sinc e they're both women of color?

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2008-04-02 18:04 ]

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2008-04-02 18:10 ]
Missmuffet said:
"I think bringing Tara back would be a TERRIBLE idea. Tara died - and it was tragic and horrible and it made me very sad. But I feel like her death was meant to be permanent. Tara died a very human death. People get shot every day. It's not like she jumped into mystical energy or something. It's the same for Joyce. They are both gone - and existing in some heavenly dimension I'm sure. We all know how ripping Buffy from her heavenly dimenions turned out."

Yeah, we don't want Tara and Joyce to start sleeping with Spike. Giggle.
Well, I'm a dork and would love to see all these characters come back. Of course, the stories will probably be better than what is written here. Honestly, if we are going to have the fabulous Buffy and comic writers Joss has picked, how can it be bad? If it's done well, it will be great. And mmmcookie's idea is the best :) with Andrew's commentary and all!!
I must admit that one of the things I have not been crazy about in the comics, is all the old characters being trucked in from Overanddonewith. That said, I personally have always wanted to see ensouled Spike encounter Drusilla. The problem is, it does not seem like it has a place in the story that is being told and I would rather have a good story than a reunion.

If we had a choice of tons more characters coming back or none, I'd pick none. If Joss brough Tara back, I'd be okay with it because it opens up all sorts of interesting angst for Willow and Kennedy, but I cannot see the point of Joyce coming back. Then again I haven't seen the point of quite a few things that have been happening in BtVS.
Well, I've read soem Tara-Spike-Buffy threeways that were kind of cute, not my cup, tho.

Seriously, I agree Souled Spike re-meeting Drusilla would be a great idea if done for the right reasons, but not just for its own sake.

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2008-04-02 19:22 ]
Lots of ideas, there and here. Some good, most ... not so.

The story and character I'd really like to see is Sam and Buffy, talking about their experiences and lives, how they do things and don't do things, the consequences and dealing with them. Sam could bounce along, flirting but married, and then go back to Riley, or not, if he couldn't deal with her being better than he was.
Some things I'd like to see more of, in no particular order:

1) Exploration of the origin of the Key. It's as old as the Old Ones and must have some purpose other than getting Glory home, the fact that it opens portals to all known dimensions or somesuch seems too amazing a concept to ignore. Also, what if the false memories the Monks of Dagon created started to deteriorate, causing folks to remember events differently. Could be an interesting direction.

2) Exploration of the origin of the Scythe. It's a mystical weapon right up there with Excalibur, I'd love to know more about where it came from and if it has as yet undiscovered powers.

3) A Vampire Crusade. Giles mentioned in Season 1 that the Order of Aurelius (I think) headed up a vampire crusade in the middle ages. Now that the Slayers are legion, wouldn't that spur the vamps to organise and launch an all-out offensive to counter them. I'd would like to see that if it happens.

And I will probably be alone in this, but I would love to see it happen.

4) Willow vs. Dark Willow. Some bizarre spell misfire/dimensional mishap/Toth's-wand-type-thing/random-Buffyverse-stuff causes Willow to come face to face with her dark badass self. I have no idea how it would pan out but nerdy computer geek Willow vs. world ending evil Dark Willow would be a great showdown.

Just my ideas. By the way, if any of this stuff has been covered in the comics thus far, forgive me, I'm a little bit behind with Season 8.
I like Furball's ideas.
Sunfire's list is excellent! I also particularly agree with number 5...

As someone else above said, what I like about Buffy (as well as the characters, script...) is the deeper stuff, dealing with struggles inside and outside, that you can relate to your own life.
Bringing back popular characters that the fans recognise is OK if the writer really wants to do that for the story, but I don't look forward to simply that as a plot feature.

I also think that the non-magic deaths rule needs to be sacred, in order not to lessen the impact and meaning of what went before. Yes, Buffy is fantasy entertainment, but it manages to at the same time make us think differently about the real world. Personally the Buffyverse makes me feel stronger. If every bad event that happens can just be magicked away, then for me it begins to feel more fluffy and less substantial.
fangless; I agree to the extent that anything as major as reversing a non-magical death should only occur in a context where reality itself is being changed.
That having been said, recall both Cordelia 's detah-which-I-still-say-was-faked and Fred's death were of sueprnatural origin and Anya was never pronounced and we didn't *see* what happened right after. So there was the same golden window for a vengeful D'Hoffryn to intervene .

Furball; Good ones. Nearest thing to a problem with Willow vs DarkWillow is that, at her most truly powerful (after absorbing from Giles) she was suicidal.
There may be something mutated about my fan genes, but as enmeshed as I am in Buffy and the works of Joss, I have absolutely no desire in advance to see any particular outcome.

That said, I do find at least several of Sunfire and Furball's ideas intriguing, and as Hanselel mentioned, seeing Faith and Xander circling 'round again has its appeal. And anything with Andrew and and/or Dru inspires the hope of comedy gold.

I think the only way to solve the issues of shipping and death revival is to have everybody sleep with one another, singly and together, and then revive everyone that's dead and kill everyone that's alive.

I could be wrong about this.
DaddyCat: Yes, I have no idea how it would pan out really. But I think it would be a cool match-up, particularly if Willow somehow lost her magic in the process of splitting into two and had to stop Dark Willow with just her geek skills and natural intelligence.

Heck, you could make it really interesting and throw Vampire Willow into the mix too, that would be just crazy. I think if Joss and the writing team actually ever wrote that I would probably die from excitement overload! :)
QuoterGal, I think you are on to something here.

Personally I think Tara should stay dead with dignity. There is something a little unseemly about yanking people out death willy-nilly just because someone isn't happy with that particular death. I think it cheapens the the story and the pain that Willow went through (just as I think it cheapens the entire Buffy-Angel arc when he comes back in Season 7 and basically says "Let's get back together because y'know that whole curse thing and losing my soul just not a problem anymore").

Also, hand-up, I LIKE Kennedy. I think it's great the way she fell for Willow and went after her, and made Willow realize that she can still experience love. I like that she's brash and clearly flawed, and I like the way she figured out how to save Willow when she turned into Warren.

As far as characters I would like to see again - Kate. What's she been doing after her epiphany? I could see her being in hell LA saving people and being REALLY pissed at Angel for creating the situation. The other is Whistler. We all know that Doyle was originally going to be Whistler - that could open a real interesting storyline, since that means Whistler is the one who was supposed to die (by the PTB or fate or something), about why he wasn't there to be Angel's partner and how he feels responsible in some sense for Doyle's death.
5. Willow wearing less.

There. Fixed that up for you, Sunfire. I'll be in my bunk...
Xane said:

"Yeah, we don't want Tara and Joyce to start sleeping with Spike. Giggle."

Wow I just went to a very scary visual place.
5. Willow wearing less.

There. Fixed that up for you, Sunfire. I'll be in my bunk...


You already got that wish. This is for future issues.

Personally the Buffyverse makes me feel stronger. If every bad event that happens can just be magicked away, then for me it begins to feel more fluffy and less substantial.

I agree. If I can agree with emphasis of some kind that does not imply a lack of nuance on the subject of death, I am doing that.

nerdy computer geek Willow vs. world ending evil Dark Willow would be a great showdown.

This is what bothers me about how Willow's arc was handled. And I'm not picking on you-- it really does play in the story like Willow became a very different version of herself for awhile. Different clothes, hair, crazy veins. Magic-fueled grief and pain that morphed her into something terrible. So this match makes sense.

So I guess what I'm saying is I wish we would see more about what it's like to be the current Willow when both of these pasts are a part of her. I feel like I lost track of who Willow is emotionally a long time ago due to this. I never expected her to be static, but the integration of all the different changes hasn't really made sense to me. Kinda feels like she's lost in all that.

Buffy, meanwhile, remains oddly emotionally at sea to me yet ever integrated. But I realize some here disagree on that quite strongly, and I've read the reasons at length so I'll stop here.
Buffy, meanwhile, remains oddly emotionally at sea

And by that I mean, she's rather conflicted and confused at times, but I get the person dealing with all of that. I don't anymore, with Willow.
I find this list's lack of Clem disturbing.
Willow's character progression always seemed fairly fluent and consistent to me. She always had a propensity to take things too far. Her extreme computer skills for example. A lot of students her age are talented with computers, but she took her talent into the area of illegal hacking. Sure, she used her skills for "good", bringing up sewer plans and Coroner's reports and such, but I'll bet she didn't pick up those tricks from reading "Hacking for Dummies". She was into some pretty murky territory there, and that's some time before she ever hooked up with Buffy - her hacking skills were fully formed right there in the first episode.

Her use of magic was propelled by the same character trait, that urge to push too far too fast without regard for the "legality" of what she was getting into. Tara was continually trying to pull her back from that, trying to ground her and get her to acheive some form of balance, while Willow recklessly pushed on. And there were many examples of her going way too far with magic long before her violations of Tara's mind and her descent into darkness during season 6.

In season 4, when she found Oz with Veruca, her first thought was to curse him to live the rest of his life in loveless agony. She even got as far as prepping the spell components and starting the incantation before she pulled herself back. And when she decided she couldn't handle the grief of Oz leaving her, another spell to fix the pain, regardless of consequences.

So in Season 6, with Giles gone, Tara had become the brake on that process: and when Tara was killed, Willow spun out of control. Yes, she absorbed massive amounts of dark magic into herself, but for me the whole Dark Willow thing was terrifying, not because she became a monster, but because she unleashed a part of who she really is. And it wasn't in any way pretty. Sure, she was an alcoholic relapsing into a binge, that was the metaphor the writers were pitching to us, but I think it was also an inevitable progression of her character traits that got us to that point.

By the way, just to be clear, I adore the character of Willow, best TV character ever in my opinion. Which is why season seven, when she struggles with all this stuff and finally comes out on top, was such a wonderful fulfilment of her arc. And long may her story continue in seasons 8 and 9.
She always had a propensity to take things too far.

Yep, definitely. She's a nerd. I've always liked the character for the combination of that fierce love of learning things and her other traits. It was a new spin on how nerds get depicted on tv. Or a rare one, at least, up until then.

but for me the whole Dark Willow thing was terrifying, not because she became a monster, but because she unleashed a part of who she really is. And it wasn't in any way pretty. Sure, she was an alcoholic relapsing into a binge, that was the metaphor the writers were pitching to us, but I think it was also an inevitable progression of her character traits that got us to that point.

Yeah, I agree. And that's kinda what I was trying to say before-- I didn't like all the physical changes that seemed to signal she was someone else because it is still Willow. It's the part after that where I lose her. She comes back from giving full reign to the darker side of her character and doesn't seem to bring enough awareness of it or insight into how she got there back with her. I mean yeah, she was afraid of her power in S7, afraid of losing control, afraid she was going to hurt people. That part I get and that's essential to coming back from that. It's the rest I don't really get. The fact that she was so hung up on control to begin with was the problem. She was using magic to solve her problems. She was using it because it made her feel special. We got glimpses at times of how magic made her feel worthy and useful when she didn't feel that being "just Willow," and we saw her struggle to trust herself again, but we have never really seen her address any of the underlying stuff that led her to abuse magic in the first place.

And now she seems to be superduperWillow (now with more Ren Faire). With veins sometimes, when pissed off-- I like that because it suggests that she struggles with her darker impulses, so that part of her is still present. But I don't really get what's going on with now. I get the impression she's still wary of herself a bit (like when that monitor was busted by Roden's spell), and pretty significantly afraid of losing Kennedy, but not much else.
Furball, Sunfire; Good points. (And maybe a hook for my fic "Willow's Quest." *grin)
Nitpicking (my favorite sport) Willow 's curse was meant to make Oz and Veruca hate each other, not everybody their whole lives. Still would have been a major violation of their personhoods if she'd completed it. And shows, along with her tendency to push herself too far, her tendency to instrumentalize the folks around her. (Another hook.)
The physical changes; I just went along with them as metaphor, I didn't really see the less effective side. (Warren; Willow, I've gotten to know a lot about you since we've all been here on the Ring. That wasn't you, it was a monster I made out of you. Willow; Trust me on this, Warren, that was me.)

I wonder what that says about the WhiteWillow transformation? That that isn't "Really her" either?

Or maybe it's meant to show Willow is subconsciously manipualting her features at such times. She doesn't reallyw ant to own DarkWillow and she doesn't really think she's capable of being WhiteWillow in any real way, so she's disguising herself in such forms. (Joss could come up with an angl;e like that,e asily, altho I doubt he actually did.) Worth consdiering. (A third hook?)
Hmmm. I am in a different moment of Willow's now, I think, having only read up to issue 5 of season eight. Oh and don't worry, I never bother worrying about spoilers for myself, life's too short for that :)

Sunfire, I think part of the problem you are referencing might be a problem with season 7 as a whole rather than anything specific with Willow's character as such - there were just so many new faces on screen, with all the potentials and the new high school people, I do think that the central characters got far less time spent on their personal issues, Willow included.

That said, I do think Willow recognised her level of blame in the events leading to Tara's death. When she was afflicted by Amy's spell, she manifested her own punishment (as I recall that was the condition of the curse Amy placed upon her), and she did not become Dark Willow, but Warren. She turned herself into her lover's murderer. That is a pretty telling indication I think of the degree of guilt she felt over Tara's death.

I agree that all of her issues could have been worked out in far greater detail, but, given the constraints of the epic story they were telling in that timeframe, the writers did pretty well on the whole.

As to the whole issue of why she was abusing magic...? Well, you could equally ask, why was she hacking computers pre-Season one? Unhappiness, possibly? She was clearly bullied in school, that was demonstrated by Cordelia's remarks quite vividly. She certainly didn't feel attractive or popular, had terrible self-esteem, and was branded an outsider by almost everyone. Focussing on her computer habit was almost certainly a crutch which prevented her having to face the reality of her life at that time, and in college that crutch was replaced by magic. I guess, had she not hooked up with Buffy and been opened up to the whole concept of magic, she might well have replaced that crutch with drugs. So it all goes back to her childhood (doesn't it always). And I think you are right that Willow, while she has comes to terms with their consequences, hasn't really tackled the root of her issues. However I think she will need a few more years and a ton of therapy to get to the bottom of all that stuff.
Probably not a popular idea with the anti-character resurrection movement (which, normally, I'd be a part of, except for this one case), but I'd like to see a definitive return of Fred. I'm probably one of the few who was never one hundred percent onboard with Illyria (Acker's acting was great, obviously, but I just never really dug the character. That could be explained by my hatred of Vulcans from Star Trek, and I always say Illyria as a violent version of a Vulcan in her mannerisms). She was a fine character, but a Fred? No, not even close.

The Illyria episodes of the show, while dramatically great (particularly the Illyria-Wesley moment in the finale), left me wanting more... and that's because, after Fred's death, the show was lacking that special someone. Fred was, after all, my favorite TV character ever. It was like a void, and... it's kind of hard to put into words, but it made the last few episodes of Angel harder to enjoy than the ones before.

Besides, wishing for her to really return isn't a crazy notion, not considering that I believe that Joss' original plans, had there been a Season 6, would've involved Illyria being split into Illyria and Fred or something along those lines. I may be wrong, but that's what I remember reading.

I'm against almost every other character resurrection. But, can you blame me for wanting my favorite character back? Someone probably can, but hey, that's fine.

Anyways, yeah, I don't know if I'm onboard with most of the things that this articles is suggesting. Except Oz. Oz returning to the fold, a-okay.
DaddyCat, I always thought there were two ways to look at the tranformations of Willow (although I am sure the more imaginative among us here can conjure up many more). The first view is that White Willow is the light at the end of the very black tunnel that was Dark Willow and the consequences of her rampage, that somehow working through all that darkness leads beyond to a better brighter place.

The other way is that White Willow is the very opposite of Dark Willow, the absolute other end of the spectrum. Tara would probably have been as appalled at White Willow as at Dark Willow, because they are both utter extremes and nowhere close to balance. But, that is exactly how Willow operates, she doesn't play for balance, she races at the very edges of what she can physically and magically achieve. And the fact that she is able to go there is why she is such an unbelievably powerful witch.

For myself, I don't know which of these views I take (and I am open to other ideas, of course). I like them both, and each time I watch through BtVS I feel slightly differently about Willow (and all the characters for that matter) . And I love the new insights I am picking up on this board, their are some great minds posting here.
Now I want to see Green Willow. She would be like the Incredible Hulk: really big and fond of breaking things. Then she could get in a fight with Black Willow and White Willow and Nerdy Willow and Medival Willow and Batman and ponies... it would be great.
As long as Green Willow doesn't have a bow and arrow, a feathered cap and wear lincoln green, I'm in! :P
Buffy meets River.

That's right. I said it.
My wacky ideas mostly revolve around someone staying dead for ten minutes and thereby allowing death and danger to mean anything. See? Wacky! No way D'Hoffryn is getting his Sears on and rescuing Anya and, quite frankly, if Joyce came back I would say "Aaay!", snap my fingers, and enjoy my cool water skis while trying not to look down into the water below.
On Dark Willow: I don't think Dark Willow at the end of Season 6 is a part of Willow specifically. I think it's the absense of Willow because it's the absense of her humanity. Anyone can lose their humanity. She wasn't embracing her dark side, she shut down and lost herself. She wasn't embracing anything that made Willow, Willow. She was brought back by Giles and Xander essentially forcing her humanity to resurface.

The only way Willow can acheive the power that she does now, and since the scythe spell, without losing it is by embracing all that she is, both light and dark, both magical and non-magical.

A lot of students her age are talented with computers, but she took her talent into the area of illegal hacking. Sure, she used her skills for "good", bringing up sewer plans and Coroner's reports and such, but I'll bet she didn't pick up those tricks from reading "Hacking for Dummies". She was into some pretty murky territory there, and that's some time before she ever hooked up with Buffy - her hacking skills were fully formed right there in the first episode.


I'm gonna go computer nerd on ya there. Anyone with Willow's computer proficiency knows how to hack. It comes with the territory. There's no way to not know it. If you know how it works, you know how to fix it OR break it. Hacking itself is not bad. There is black hat and white hat.

Willow's computer skills and magical skills are just that...skills. The good and bad of it is in the way it's used. Buffy's Slayer powers could just as easily be characterized as a crutch. But Willow was praised more often for her skills and abilities, and not for just being Willow.

Willow is the girl in "Choices" who chose a lesser college in order to fight evil and help people. The computer skills and magic is just the way she does it. She became dependent on magic when she began to believe there was nothing else special about her. And when the person who made her believe that there was something more to her than the magic was taken away, Willow hit rock bottom. Then there really was nothing more to her than the magic. Xander brought her back by reminding Willow of who Willow is.

My wacky ideas mostly revolve around someone staying dead for ten minutes and thereby allowing death and danger to mean anything.


I like sci-fi and fantasy because it breaks rules though. I have no opposition to any rule breakage. And Buffy as a series tends to lend itself towards breaking the rules of life and death. Spike and Angel for instance have been dead a really long time. ;)
But here's the thing, the emotional hit of a character death surely relies on adhering to the rule that "dying is bad, at least partly because it's permanent" ? When Jack Harkness "dies" it's often cool and sometimes has the frisson of other-worldliness, of eldritch forces at work but it's never ever emotionally painful or meaningful (IMO) because we know he's going to get back up in a few minutes.

If characters keep coming back then eventually you get to a stage where it's "Meh, whatever, sure they're dead now but I bet they'll be back", it loses its emotional meaning because the emotional power of death is surely at least partly a result of losing that person ? The "bad consequences" argument only goes so far too IMO, eventually all even that does is cause us to modify our thinking to "Meh, whatever, sure they're dead now but I bet they'll be back and even if it's kinda hard for a while, it'll work out in the end".

Drama depends on conflict and the tension between an ideal and reality - if you can constantly break any rule you like, if you can ignore reality at will, then those disappear very rapidly and with them any dramatic resonance.

I'm gonna go computer nerd on ya there. Anyone with Willow's computer proficiency knows how to hack. It comes with the territory. There's no way to not know it. If you know how it works, you know how to fix it OR break it.

Hmm, sorta IMO. Anyone like Willow could certainly learn (quite easily) if she applied herself but though anyone as competent as her would know the principles, they wouldn't necessarily know the hands-on stuff without actually setting out to learn it - which, as a hella smart and above all curious person, fits perfectly with what we know about her. For instance, a network engineer would know that encrypted networks are vulnerable to attack but I reckon only someone who'd studied network security (wearing whichever hat ;) would actually know how to attack them.

(personally I think the early hacker Willow demonstrates that within the apparent shrinking violet beat the heart of a full-on rebel ;)

Funnily enough, there actually is a "Hacking for Dummies" BTW - flicked through it and it's not too bad (if you wanna teach your Granny to crack ;).
zeitgeist; I don't see what D'Hoffryn might have doen with Anya in the crtaer as a rescue. I'm thinking, her reform was genuine, therefore the chances of ehr soul-plus-whatever-else-goes-there escaping toa heaven dimension were quite real and D'Hof wouldn't wnat that so he'd have a demon tail a her and bring her into soem hell soul *and* body. Different spin. But de nada.
Re: death, what Saje said.

Re: DaddyCatALSO's Anya speculation... well, thats far better than just rescuing her, but still she would escape, be broken for a while and then revert to form, which is still too close to a reset button on her death for me. Not to mention an all to familiar tale. I realize the way the tale is told is the thing, but I would prefer not to have another character head down this well worn path.
Point taken...I think the only reason I do all thiss tuff myself is ebcause when I started my own attempts at ficcing the Scoobs at 45 it was before any of the characters had died on screen and so I'm preeoccupied with my own prequelmania.
As an aside, DaddyCatALSO... are you mixing some Welsh into your posts or are you just typing really fast and thus all the inversions? Would love to be able to read your thoughts without my decoder. ;)
iechyd dda !
brechdan ŵy!
Why you low-down, dir ... oh, sorry, missed the accent on the 'w'.

Yes in general I suppose, though I must admit, it itches something fierce.

Totally had to google that, it's not one of the, ooh, 5 ? Welsh words I know (and some of those are place names ;-). For that matter I had to google "iechyd dda" cos i've only ever heard it and so would've pronounced it as "yakky da". Daft language, it looks like something in extremis dragged itself over the keyboard.

(slaintť mhath on the other hand makes perfect sense ;-)
Oh, don't worry, its one of the very few Welsh things I know. Spent too much time playing with a BBC Wales website once I think :)
I'd rather see Joss forge new stories for season 8 rather than focusing so heavily on bringing old characters back. I think it's much more effective when done sparingly. I've only read the first five issues thus far, and Amy, Warren and Ethan have already been brought back. Then there's Dracula and Oz.

I think something like Fray is a better step, using a character who we haven't seen that much of and who could believably come into contact with Buffy (even though she's from the future). Characters like Oz, Riley and Drusilla are good candidates for returning characters, but only if there is a good story to tell and their returns are believable. I think Amy would also have potentially been a good character to bring back but I just wasn't entirely satisfied with some of the circumstances of her return. The same with Ethan, of course he would have come into contact with Giles again, but I was kind of disappointed that he was only brought back in order to be killed off.

From what I've heard, a lot of people thought No Future For You was an excellent arc and I haven't heard of any dead or missing characters returning. That's the kind of story I think season 8 should be focusing on, with only the occasional reappearance of older characters if necessary. I wouldn't mind any of the characters I mentioned above returning under the right circumstances. Just not all of them.

As for dead characters returning, generally I'm not a big fan of it but it can work if done properly. But the fact remains that although a lot of characters continued to appear after their deaths on Buffy, Buffy herself was the only one to return permanently as a human. Everyone else was either a vampire, ghost, zombie, an appearance of The First or appeared in a dream. Even Spike's death was ambiguous- he was already a vampire when he "died" rather than a human, so it's possible a human couldn't have survived that. And the amulet was able to "store" his essence so I don't really consider it a true death, almost a simulated death to power the amulet.

I think it would be cheating after it was made clear that Buffy's resurrection was a one off event, to see characters like Joyce and Tara returning as humans just as Buffy did, with few consequences. I think it could cheapen their deaths and I suspect that the potential storyline about Buffy wishing Tara back to life might have been Joss being tongue in cheek. It has been established in the Buffyverse that magic has rules and we saw that magic couldn't bring Tara back, neither Osiris' or Dark Willow's, because it was a natural and immediate death that couldn't be prevented. White and Dark Willow are obviously two of the most powerful witches in the world, and if they couldn't do it, I doubt anyone else could.
Okay, I have a question:

What happened to Warren???

Yeah, yeah, I read the comics, but I don't remember what happened after Willow faces the Amy/Warren duet. From the comments, it seems like they're still alive & together, so... why haven't they killed them yet?

just curious....

And, if no one can answer quick, I'll go home and re-read the comics. Goa! What a chore! ;)
Amy and Warren escaped at the end of issue 4. When they'll pop up again we don't know but i'd be pretty surprised if they didn't at some point.

White and Dark Willow are obviously two of the most powerful witches in the world, and if they couldn't do it, I doubt anyone else could.

We've also seen that magic can completely alter reality as with Anya and 'The Wish' and with the creation of Dawn. My impression was always that Tara's return would've been along those lines i.e. she's "just there" because reality has been changed accordingly.
barest_smidgen Saje zeitgeist ; Not a different language (altho I'm sometimes tempted to post in Braviuran to shake folks up a bit) it's just I'm well byeond beign a veyr losuy tpyits. I do tend to go fairly fast, especially posting between phone calls at work. (But we're switching from a computerized automatic dialer to a portfolio system tomorrow so that'll change methinks.)
I sometimes wish I did understand Welsh; some of my favorite hymns are set to Welsh folk tunes (like "The Ash Grove") and I get curious about the originals. But that would apply to Finnish and Norwegian, too.

Razor Saje ; I agree ; the story has to be "the thing." And engineering a story with the main intent being to bring back a character (as opposed to perhaps letting the wish to use a character suggesting an otherwise worthwhile story, a nice-in-the-old-sense distinction) leads to things like the "Gwen Stacy clone" in the 80s Spider-man titles, or to my fanfics, not to the sort of thing we expect from Joss.
That having been said, it can be a legitimate device. It's a fantasy world, so raising the dead can have its point.
Keep in mind, in the Buffyverse Osiris seems to have the job of being gatekeeper from life into death, so his freedom to act would be limited by his official position,as his henchdemon told Willow. Other powers have different limitations, and that might not be one.

On the one hand, I still have great confidence in Joss (however peeved I may be with him over certain value questions) as a pure storyteller. So I tend to imagine he won't do anything that'll ring false.
Then again, I see my rising dissatisfaction with Angel S-6, and wonder if I'm lying to myself.

Plus, I have to wonder; my personal ficverse and the comics still don't overlap much. But once they get up to late spring of 2005, they will. As I'm committed to continuing my own 'verse, would it be unforgivably tacky of me to continue purchasing the canonical version?

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