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April 20 2008

Buffy Tarot Card Set Being Released By Dark Horse. Looks like we now know what that third image released yesterday with the Buffy #17 covers is connected to now.

I really want those cards.. I wonder how the back will look..
I think it should be Joss as Death in the Death card. :)
Coming next month the Buffy crucifix and holy water and then the month after that whatever Dark Horse can milk from the fandom.
Jaysus....they are quire explicit. Gonna make a lot of fans of the two vamps happy lol
LOL Simon....I kind of agree. It's taking the merchandise that bit too far. This and the'Conversations with Dead People' board are just kinda...strange. Would prefer it if they put the money into a Faith series. But what ya gonna do?
I don't think this is just money spinning. Well... maybe a little. But these look really great, and as I'm a Tarot collector anyway, could really further the Buffyverse in a way for me.

I love that they're building a backstory to go with the cards and putting thought and meaning behind them, instead of just putting a different Buffyverse face to each one.
Can't knock the artwork though... them's some pretty pictures! :)
I own no Buffyverse merch, but I will be buying this. Just too sweet and kitsche to pass up.
I swear to God I didn't know about this when I joked about one featuring the TV performers yesterday.

Not participating thanks; I burned my Tarot 25 years ago and am glad I did.
Linking the other thread and this one, I feel like I am being "monetized" and it's not a happy feeling. It feels a little creepy and a little usey.

And quite honestly, it has the opposite effect than the one intended - it makes me not want to buy stuff... though I am a big fan of tarot and have quite a number of decks, including the freaky Thoth deck, and these do look good.

However, I maintain my belief in Joss' integrity in this respect, and that's what matters most to me in all this. I want him to make money off his creations, and back-endy is good... I'm just feeling a little yuck about all the moneyspeak and the Geek Elite notion and now this...
I forgot the Buffy cross and holy water came out years ago (link:). So ummm Buffy buddha?
What is it with Darkhorse at the moment? What with that very dodgey idea of their's to release a Weegie board, and now a set of Tarot cards. Talk about squeezing the last dregs out of the franchise...

Also Spike as the Devil? But Angel with wings? *rolls eyes*

Boy am I glad that IDW are responsible for their comics rather then Darkhorse.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-04-19 22:23 ]
Okay, the Ouija Board was a bit hokey, but I really like the art on these cards. Damn you, Dark Horse!
I don't do Tarot, and I have little love for Buffy merch other than DVDs and comics, but I think this is pretty neat. All the symbolism in Buffy lends itself pretty well to this. I wonder if Xander's the Fool and Willow's the High Priestess.

Yikes, Simon. You always link to the strangest Buffy memorabilia I hadn't known about.
I think there should be a whole pantheon of Buffy-related gods and god-products, as well as Buffy product markets that have yet to be tapped.

What Buffy fan would not happily run to the nearest store waving his or her cash if they announced a whole line of Buffy make-up, jewelry and accessories? Oooooh, a Buffy fragrance - "Smells like blood and effulgence." And I know all of you would wear Buffy crotchless panties if they were available and um... tasteful.

Buffy spark plugs. Buffy potted meat products. Buffy neck braces. Buffy roll-a-way beds. Buffy sippy-cups. Buffy dark ale? Buffy brand band-aids.

Name a product, and I can find an episode and tie it in, and we can make dozens. Dozens I tell you. And this would not be playing or milking the Buffy fans at all. Nossir.

Oh, Buffy brand milking stools.
I am not remotely interested in divination or in buying merchandise but this looks interesting. I'm surprised they haven't done something like this before. And it beats Buffy Top Trumps as a concept.

[ edited by moley75 on 2008-04-19 22:30 ]
I don't want to own these things, I just want to look at them.

Well... maybe I want to own the Devil card. I'm flawed in that way.
I don't get the criticism. It's not like anyone is forced to buy anything. If you don't want to buy it...don't buy it.

I wasn't too interested in the Ouija board, but the Tarot cards look cool. I may buy them.

This doesn't come anywhere near the marketing insanity of Star Wars or Kiss. The Kiss coffin sounded a little crazy to me when I heard about it. But a Buffy coffin? Oh yeah... that would be brilliant.
I haven't bought ANYTHING buffy related, the only think I own buffy related. a fairly standard spike calendar, was given to me as a present for my birthday. I think that these cards are beautiful, the artwork is exquisite, and I'd probably only be looking at them not using them. As for random buffy merch, I am deeply against it like many of you. However, I think that if you are stupid enough to by buffy lipgloss with a huge markup when you can get the same thing at a cheaper price you deserve whatever you get.
Also Spike as the Devil? But Angel with wings? *rolls eyes*

Spike's not the Devil, he's just on the Devil card. The real symbol of evil standing in for the Devil there is the Seal of Danthalzar. Compare the card to others. Spike's in the same position on the card as Buffy is, so I see this as a positive interpretation of his character-- as someone who's made mistakes and can choose between good and evil.

Angel on the other hand is Temperance, not an angel. The wings are traditional, although here it's probably also a play on his name. But I expect that's secondary.

I actually got to thinking, based on the thread where the Magician image was noticed, where the main characters might fit in the Major Arcana. I hadn't placed Angel as Temperance, but I wasn't sure where he went, and it really does fit him.

I'd place Joyce as the Empress, Giles as the Emperor, Oz as Strength (with a wolf instead of a lion), and probably repeat Buffy, Willow, and Xander in some other roles. But I expect Buffy will be Strength in this deck. Xander was literally the Hanged Man in season 7. The Tower could be Glory's tower (literally and figuratively), just as Judgment could be Buffy returning to life, again with multiple meanings.

I hope Anya shows up somewhere. Maybe as an ironic take on Justice. The Watcher's Council would make a sweet Hierophant card.
I actually like this idea. At least it's a step up from Firefly spirit animals . . .
GrrrlRome: "I don't get the criticism. It's not like anyone is forced to buy anything. If you don't want to buy it...don't buy it."


Not a particularly good argument against the criticism. If you were to apply that in other areas, you shouldn't criticize a sexist or racist portrayal in a TV show because you're not forced to watch it, or make fun of a candidate, because no one's forcing you to vote for them.

Object to the criticism all you like, of course, but I have to say that doing so on that basis is a little... weak.
And people snickered at me when I asked James Marsters and Juliet Landau to sign tarot cards for me . . . perhaps I was just ahead of my time.
"I don't get the criticism. It's not like anyone is forced to buy anything. If you don't want to buy it...don't buy it."

True GrrrlRomeo, but that doesnt mean a product cant be criticised. I don't think this is a particularly good idea, and I have no intention of buying it. Doesn't mean I can't say so.

I think this and the Ouiji board are a step too far(especially the Ouiji board;whose idea was that? poor taste) If people like it-great. If people want to buy it-great. But thats not going to stop people pointing out if they don't like it.
Spike as Devil? I wonder if watched the show at all.
I hadn't known about this on yesterday's thread either. C'mon, everybody -- Buffy characters always felt like major arcana. Maybe I'll take two master cartons. Wait: do I have that many friends? Or will I have, post-holiday?
This is great ! These cards look beautiful ! :) I'm happy that they didn't just churn out a generic deck featuring old photoshoot photos or something. I can point to various Buffy merchandise that is pretty much just that. These seem to have some thought behind them.

The ouija board was kind of silly, but I want these. Badly.
Spike is not the Devil in this deck. The First is.

I will be your friend, doghouse.

Exactly, Sweet Fragility. This is merch done the right way. Fake holy water this is not.
I consider these to be a classier product than bad action figures that don't really capture the likenesses of either the actors or characters that they're supposed to. It's a creative extension of the Buffyverse beyond traditional merchandise. That said, I probably won't buy them, but they look neat at least.
I own the Vertigo Tarot deck that DC came out back in the day, and it's gorgeous. I bought it mainly for the the artwork, but the Vertigo comics were/are bizarre enough to make it a cool tie-in.
Since I used to work in licensing, I've seen a lot of examples of "character slapping" where any and all products are just slapped with the sticker of a character. This is the cheap and easy way to go and is usually the thing that license holders want to avoid if they care at all about their franchise and reputation.

I haven't seen Dark Horse do that with this property. It seems like the products available fit in with the Buffyverse and have been crafted with care, quality and integrity. YMMV

[ edited by TamaraC on 2008-04-19 23:31 ]
QuoterGal: Even if you don't watch a show that portrays sexist or racist stuff, it continues to have an impact on society. So do political and public figures.

These particular commercial products carry no message with them. They're just there for the buying and collecting...like action figures and coffee mugs. I'm a grown adult with a job and will spend my money however I choose. My little collecting hobby harms no one.

I said I don't get the criticism. I don't understand the basis of it. Please tell me how the existance of these products affects society. I know how it effects the economy. This is a Capitalist society after all, and Dark Horse is a business. They have a right to make money, and people have a right to spend their earned money. I'm the one who wants to buy it, and I don't feel milked in anyway.

Now, releasing 10 versions of the same product (IE DVDs and variant cover books) does feel like milking at times. For instance, if you have two DVDs of the same movie for $20, and they have different special features on them...the fans who want all the features are essentially spending $20 just on the features on the second disc.

But at least with comic books, the value increases over time...especially on the variants.

I would much rather buy a whole new product, than a variant of a product I already have.
Nice cards. Much better than the traditional artwork. I'd buy them. I wonder if they read any differently though.
I've seen a number of tarot sets released for various anime series, so the the concept of a licensed tarot doesn't seem odd to me. Considering the quality of the artwork, these look nicer than most tie-in sets.

Regarding Spike on the Devil card, both he and that particular image fit pretty well based on this description I found at Aeclectic.net:

Perhaps the most misunderstood of all the major arcana, the Devil is not really "Satan" at all, but Pan the half-goat nature god and/or Dionysius. These are gods of pleasure and abandon, of wild behavior and unbridled desires. With Capricorn as its ruling sign, this is a card about ambitions; it is also synonymous with temptation and addiction.

Personally, I think it will be interesting to see how the artist used the Buffyverse characters/imagery to reinterpret the traditional tarot meanings. Not particularly into tarot myself, but the fact that so many artists have their own unique takes on how to represent the cards is rather fascinating.
Well said, GrrrlRomeo!
Speaking for myself only, of course, I would never claim that Dark Horse doesn't have a right to try and make money. They can have at it 'til the cows come home, but I don't have to be a willing, compliant or silent participant if I don't feel like it.

I made fun of the cards because their existence seems like yet another attempt to milk the Buffy fandom with product. They may be well-crafted - and I think they are - but the continuing commercializing around stuff I care about never fails to make me want to mock it.

I can't tell you "how the existance[sic] of these products affects society" other than the fact that commercialism in general hacks away at the world's soul. For me, it doesn't have to have an enormous societal and cultural impact for me to mock it. I make fun of something if there is an aspect of it that I find absurd, or a bit crass, or whatever it is that strikes me at the time, and that's what I did here.

I suspect others have possibly walked around a store or seen something for sale and made fun of it without necessarily feeling like it is terribly evil - or that deep wrongness is required for them to mock it. Just a tad of absurdity and a dash of commercialism is really all that's required.

I'm glad you want to buy the tarot deck and don't feel milked for cash by this product. That's nice for you. It is perhaps not relevant to anyone, like myself, that eversoslightly does. You have mentioned products in your last post that do make you feel like that - and those products don't bother me.

I wouldn't try to tell you that you shouldn't feel that way about the variant covers, or that criticism of them is somehow unjustified because their impact on society is minor. Their impact is enough for you to feel that they are just trying to get your bucks, and that's enough.

Horses for courses - chacun à son goût. My only point in responding to you was that "you aren't being forced to buy it" wasn't much of a bar to either criticism or mockery, and I still believe that - you haven't said anything persuasive that makes me believe otherwise.

ET: fix typos.

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2008-04-20 00:42 ]
I say Bravo! These are nice little works of asthetic history with lots of naked nudity, and everybody likes a goat head.
This reminds me of the Mage: The Ascension Tarot Cards that White Wolf Games came out with years ago. From the looks of things, both sets are heavy on the symbolism. Once I can afford it, I'll be happy to buy them. If anything, it's wonderful eye candy.
Well spotted- those of you who called this yesterday.

I'm being milked for cash...and I love it! Perhaps they SHOULD put out a 'Buffy milking stool' and use it just for us.

Of these cards- I'll take two. One to put aside and another to ask arcane questions of- such as 'Will there ever be a Buffy movie?' and 'Why does Joss write such strong female characters?'.
::squints::

Rather odd. I know next to nothing about tarot. Basically, I remember James Bond using a deck to seduce Solitaire/Dr. Quinn in Live or Let Die, hence the only card I really remember is the lovers. It rather surprised me when I read the subtitling on the Buffy/Spike card... not quite what I was expecting. On the other hand, now I want to know who they used for the lovers...
Meltha - then you may be interested to know that they marketed a James Bond Tarot deck and book - I used to own the book until I found someone that needed it more than I did and gave it to him...

It's a fact.
Hey Meltha- it states in the accompanying article that they're using Buffy/Angel for the lovers. Which is a whole can of worms that we're not allowed to go into.

BTW- the Temperance card? *Drool*
Honestly, I'm surprised this wasn't done YEARS ago. I do tarot card readings and have several decks. Always thought a "Buffy" deck would be interesting. However, why is Buffy the image on the Magician card? Uh, hello - Willow?
Probably because Willow is the High Priestess, and they didn't want to use the same character on two cards in a row?
As someone who has used the Tarot and finds it to be a helpful tool, I really want this. Unlike the Ouija that just invites either bad mojo or criticism from fundy parents.

Now we just need a Slayer Kit* with a chest full of frilly girly stuff, and a hidden bottom revealing a bottle of official Dark Horse holy water, a Dark Horse wooden stake, and Dark Horse cross necklace. For $300 more, you get hot Dark Horse pink leather pants and Dark Horse fighting boobs.

*May or may not include Dark Horse communion wafers. Despite the fact that Buffy never used them, she did have communion wafers in her secret arsenal in Welcome to the Hellmouth.

EDIT: I see that Dark Horse has already released the Slayer Kit. Oh well, I like mine better.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-04-20 05:03 ]
I just know someone's gonna see me surrounded by these Buffy tarot cards and the 'Conversations with Dead People' Ouija board and tell me I'm going to hell.

Sigh.
See, now that's almost reason enough for me to buy it.
If The Hanged Man doesn't feature an eyepatched Xander, then they don't know what they'd doing.
Reading the headline I thought, "Oh no, how cheesy," but after seeing the images and reading the article, I think they really get Tarot, and I am looking forward to this deck.
I find this offensive in more ways than I can count and one I may not even be allowed to voice (the Bangel prejudice). Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I am just so sick of everything in the known universe being converted to another way to make a buck.
And yes, everyone has the right to make a buck, but I don't have to like the way they do it.

I think QuoterGal expressed the commercialism yuck factor best with "seems like another attempt to milk the Buffy fandom with product."

And as a practicing Wiccan, I wonder if there are any Catholics who are offended by the Buffy holy water.
For 7 years, Buffy sold nearly 20 minutes of advertising space per episode so other companies could advertise and sell their crap. Now it sells it's own crap. So, yay!

My thought is, if BtVS can support itself financially as a franchise by selling products to fans that want them and can afford them instead of say...raising the price of the books, or printing fewer copies so they become obscure and more valuable, then I think that's good. It's also better than promoting Pepsi, or being the toy in the McDonald's Happy Meal.

The commercial arm is necessary to keep the artistic arm going. But by all means, feel free to mock the products. Make people feel like they're being milked. Make 'em feel stupid and naive for buying them. And others will say the opposite. Hopefully, enough people will keep buying stuff so the story can continue to be told and grow bigger and better and reach more people.

These cards look like they'll have collector's item potential. Many will be purchased to be kept and loved instead of consumed and disposed of. Don't make the story, the book, a collector's item or an elite item....'cause then it'll be less accessible. Commercially successful = accessible. Artsy obscurity = elite.
What with that very dodgey idea of their's to release a Weegie board ...

Hee, I know what you meant sueworld2003 but this made me laugh. Started imagining what an actual "Weegie" board would be like ...

"Ssh, it's spelling something out ... See ... youse ... ? ... Whit ... youse ... lookin ... at ... ya ... bampots ?"

;-)

Fake holy water this is not.

Wait a minute Sunfire, that stuff wasn't really holy ? I want my money back ! ;-)


Not my thing but it seems like they actually know and care about the traditions of Tarot (which is more than I do), it does at least look very pretty and it feels more related to Buffy than e.g. the "Mal Spirit Fox" feels to 'Firefly' (that has most definitely "got milk" ;).

I've also got some sympathy for the "you don't have to buy it" position. I get QuoterGal's objection to that but I have to wonder, if no-one buys it then what's the difference ? Aren't we then saying that just its creation is intrinsically wrong ? Which seems a bit daft. The thing about "milking" is, if you don't want to be milked then don't spend your money, if no-one does then the products (and eventually companies) that do the milking die off. Unless we're saying that we as fans are so obsessive that we actually need protection from ourselves ? Which again, to me, sounds a bit daft. YMMV ;).

(of course, anyone that wants to is allowed to object, *roll eyes* etc. since this seems like just one of those "arbitrary lines" things. There may, for instance, be people that totally "got" and appreciated the "Mal Spirit Fox" straight away ... Nah ;)
....since this seems like just one of those "arbitrary lines" things. There may, for instance, be people that totally "got" and appreciated the "Mal Spirit Fox" straight away ... Nah ;)


Not so much an arbitrary line thing as a "straw that broke the
camel's back" thing, for me. I've always been annoyed by the tacky product tie-ins, this one just happened to be the one that caught me in the right mood to comment. Even though it's arguably less tacky than most (nice art and all).

.The commercial arm is necessary to keep the artistic arm going. ...... Commercially successful = accessible. Artsy obscurity = elite.
GrrrlRomeo | April 20, 09:05 CET


Totally disagree here. How does the sale of BtS/AtS/Firefly tie-ins make it any easier for Joss to get a new show on the air?
One of the major flaws in our society is the perception that if it isn't "accessible", it must be "elite".
Go for the dumbing down of everything, in the name of commercialism, it's the American way. Doesn't mean it's the "right" way.

And I'm not even referring specifically to the tarot cards now, but to the "make an action figure (or spirit animal) of everything" mentality.
IMO it's all basically the same thing as "being the toy in the MacDonald's happy meal", in principle.
Well, I was raised Catholic and the only thing that ever offended me were the priests. Also, partly why I eventually decided it was bunk, and have never looked back. Besides, life is too short to get upset about silly things like Buffy holy water. I prefer to save my vitriol for things like like drug testing in developing countries, stopping female circumcision, trafficking, and so on...

I've been wanting to get a set of tarot cards for a while, but find the traditional artwork on them unappealing. These are nice. My mom convinced me to not study art in college because she said I would never earn a living. It's nice to see she was wrong. Somebody is earning a nice living off of this, and I can't see that it hurts anyone. Neither do I feel milked.

I'm actually looking forward to getting these.
Saje Thanks for being kind enough to correct me on my appalling spelling. :0 I made the mistake of using Google to define the word, and judging by the amount of entries It seems that I wasn't the only one to get it wrong. *g*

The Ouija board was a totally mad idea. Buffy as a show received enough flack in the past from folks labeling it as glorifying the Supernatural and encouraging kids to have an unhealthy interest in the black magic (which we all know is rubbish!) just as they have done with Potter, so to see Darkhorse produce that item seems to be asking for trouble.

I'm Still utterly confused by this Tarot cad deck. They seem to have chosen the oddest of characters to define each card, and quite frankly quite why they chose Buffy for the magician and not Willow, and the fact that Darkhorse is showing more then just a smidge bit of shipper bias with their depiction of Spuffy weirds me out even further.

Lets just say I can easily pass on this one. *g*
Oh I wasn't really correcting you sueworld2003 (i'd only a very rough - i.e. wrong ;) - idea about how to spell it myself) it's just that of all the misspellings on the thread, yours struck me funniest - like a sort of "Rab C Nesbitt Ouija Board" tie-in ;).

Not so much an arbitrary line thing as a "straw that broke the camel's back" thing, for me.

Ah, so you've never liked any of the tie-ins Shey ? Fair enough ;).

(otherwise i'd point out that how many straws it takes to do the breaking is kind of the arbitrary part ;)

[ edited by Saje on 2008-04-20 12:16 ]
Well, you know the thing that creeps me out about most tie-in merchandise is the fact that it attracts me weirdly, despite its ickiness. I mean, if I actually bought an action figure, I wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with it,and no place to put it- so why do I often see one and feel I want it? The power of something-or-other having to do with capitalism, I suppose.

So far I haven't succumbed, but the tarot deck- I might just need that.I will think of it as in same category as a book, of sorts. It really does look pretty interesting. And interestingly pretty.

I generally agree with Quoter Gal on this, except that I actually like this one.
Read some (fairly throwaway) thrillers wherein the main character used a Tarot deck as a sort of "randomising element" when trying to solve a mystery. He didn't believe they had powers of divination, he used them as a way of creating random connections in his mind that might then lead to something, like a sort of hypothesis generator. Always liked that idea.

Do you ever have to solve mysteries toast ? Cos that could be the perfect justification ;).

(even if it's just "Where the hell did I put the car keys ?" ;)
I was right yesterday-go me! On the topic at hand, I just love this tarot deck idea. Strange how they never got the idea earlier, because Buffy just screams for this kind of tie-in product. Art-wise, they're gorgeous, the Angelus-Temperance image is haunting and seducing as a vampire should be. I simply don't get the criticism. Is this tacky and tradings cards aren't ? Are these cheap and posters are high art ? I'm definitely happier to be milked with this than with the umpteenth release of the DVDs. Anyway, Dark Horse is a business, and they have every right to promote their product anyway they want. The market will tell if they're right or not.
I also say, well said GrrrlRomeo.

I like the fact that they have Rachel Pollack who did the Vertigo Tarot ages ago and such lovely art. For those who like Tarot, it looks like there is actually some serious thought and contemplation going into this instead of just pasting a name onto it. I'd personally rather have a lovely set of cards than a root beer can.(1) This could have been a rushed out, icky product but it looks like it will be beautiful from what I have seen. I also may not agree with all the symbolism choices (or I might) but it looks like it will make me think and that's fine with me.

At any rate, I'm interested (and if they have the Order of Taraka cards in it, well, that would just be amazing.)




(1) Well, I might make an exception for the Willow one.
GrrrlRomeo wrote: "These particular commercial products carry no message with them."

Really? It seems to me that already the images on the cards are an interpretation of the show. And also that the way the images are drawn promotes a certain 'ideal' as well - the way the bodies are drawn on the Devil card being an obvious example. That seems both kind of message-y and questionable if you ask me...
And what would be the message ? That sex is devilish and bodies are inherently bad ? It's art. It's beautiful to see. It's Buffy. What's the problem? Is it because Spuffy is associated with the Devil and Bangel will be on the Lovers' card ? I think it's a rather plausible choice. Buffy/Angel was the very epithome of romance, especially teen idealized romance, and Spike/Buffy was a tormented, visceral, destructive even if passionate link. The closest card in meaning is the Devil.
If Dark Horse was just milking the fandom then they would have just recycled old art from the comics. I think the beauty of the cards shown here is pretty much proof that someone really cares about turning out a quality product which many people will love. Personally I have quite a few action figures, and they come out to play occasionally, but usually they sit around near my comics, my preciousss.
I don't buy action figures (or trinkets of any kind--small house, don't like to dust), but I understand what toast is saying about finding them appealing in the store.

Tarot cards fall in the "trinket" category for me, because I wouldn't know what to do with them, but I understand why folks want to buy these. They seem very well-crafted.

Don't know about holy water, but I have always wanted a bottle of "Obsession for Dorks."
It seems to me that already the images on the cards are an interpretation of the show. And also that the way the images are drawn promotes a certain 'ideal' as well - the way the bodies are drawn on the Devil card being an obvious example. That seems both kind of message-y and questionable if you ask me...


If you (or anyone) is interested qui_ca, these are some general interpretations of the Devil card.

Right side up it can have these meanings: Materialism, Fetters, Sensation, Bedevilment, Temptation, Degradation, Domination.

Upside down, it can have these meanings: Understanding, Healing, Freedom, Indecision, Mirth, Hedonism, Centeredness, Sensuality, Sexuality, Resonance, Potency.

To me it would be pretty appropriate to have Buffy and Spike on that particular card, but that's just my take. Then again, the whole idea of the Tarot card centers on interpretation, so everyone will take from it what they will, I suppose.
Buffy/Angel was the very epithome of romance, especially teen idealized romance, and Spike/Buffy was a tormented, visceral, destructive even if passionate link. The closest card in meaning is the Devil.

Good point, Perseo. I would have problems if Spike was The Devil, but it is interesting to see that he and Buffy are both in thrall like the man and woman on the Rider-Waite Devil card. It gets the visceral nature and lust of Spike and Buffy, but it also places them in an equal place, which is interesting because that means then that they both emerge and both have the chance for triumph.

I am looking forward to seeing more of this project.
What bothers me is that the story about love and redemption ultimately boils down to one word - "devil".
I like that idea, Saje.
However, I kind of officially (attempt to) solve mysteries for a living. I have to decide (whether I'm certain or not) which person is telling the truth in conflicting accounts, and also which expert's opinion is on target, without being an expert myself.

I do think those involved would be more than a little upset if they thought tarot cards were remotely involved in that process!
I was excited about these until I read that Buffy and Angel are on the Lovers card. That changed my mind, no thanks. Why is it that Spike is on the devil card? I know he isn't the devil, but at the end of the series Spike had redeemed himself and he and Buffy made amends and he died a champion. But someone looking at cards would get the impression that all he did was torment and tempt Buffy with destructive lust. Again, no thanks. ATA: It reminds me of the Buffy Connections trading cards. Angel & Buffy had bucco cards of love & tenderness and the card they had for Spike was 'Evil Connection' with a picture of the AR. Too bad, I am willing to give out my money for just about anything and everything that comes out for Spike, but when they make it something negative, I won't buy.

[ edited by luvspike on 2008-04-20 17:23 ]
Allie did reiterate once and again in the interview that their aim for the deck was to be a functional, working one, that one could really use it for divination. It's not pretty pictures judging on the old storylines, it's a tool, for those who believe it or are just interested, and if the Devil has a millennia-old shared conveyed meaning that deepgirl187 listed above, then, I think nothing more than Spike and Buffy represent those concepts. For instance, Death in the tarot DOES NOT have anything to do with death. At all. When it has to do with change, shifting of state, renovation, a new event. It's a pretty neutral card, and it's the same for the Devil. It's not a negative card per se. Rachel Pollack is a renown expert, famous for the 20-year old Vertigo deck, she's not a shipper trying to rile up sides. So Spike and Spuffy, IMO, are not being slighted at all. They're just a symbol. The Temperance card, which is a very positive one in the tarot spectrum, is, on the other hand, coupled with Angelus. I don't think they're trying to tell us Angelus is good either. That's a visual play on the angel pouring water in the cups, the traditional iconography of the card.
OMG, can I just say "sellout"? WTF, seriously? First the ouiji board and now tarot cards? Ugh! Whyyy? I am only for Buffy-related memorabilia, not some random items someone decided to stick the Buffy logo on. Grrr. It's just ghey.
Rachel Pollack is a renown expert, famous for the 20-year old Vertigo deck, she's not a shipper trying to rile up sides. So Spike and Spuffy, IMO, are not being slighted at all.
I'm sure you're right but if you put Spike and Buffy on the Devil card and Buffy and Angel on the Lovers card riled up shippers is what you are going to get.
At least it's a step up from Firefly spirit animals

I just felt the need to quote this.
Helcat, doesn't change the fact that for those tarots' meaning and iconography, in the Buffy mythology there are no more suitable couples or concepts. And, by the way, why does anything always have to do with shippers? Why do shippers always have to be pampered to ? It gets a little grating when people are shippers first, general Buffy fans later. Storylines, ideas, entire projects can go to freak off BUT NO, any given couple is not to be messed with, lest you wanna incur in their wrath. I see a wonderful and though-out project here with this deck, clearly high-level with that kind of art and detail, already trashed because of ONE card and ONE character that MIGHT not be rendered in his best light.
Kimtaro, so were calendars, mugs, necklaces, soundtracks, pins, pens, keychains, plush toys, action figures, stickers, replica jewels and individual character DVDs sellout too ? Because I think sellout started with the series itself, since it was a way to cash in on a movie. And, let me say, "ghey".. wow, I didn't know we had third-graders here.
Enough shipping, enough kvetching. We're talking about Tarot cards.

And enough sniping at one another. Seriously.
Hmm, not getting the backlash on this. Maybe because I come from comic and anime fandoms, where the big properties always have random products made.

The fact is, Dark Horse is a comic company, and this is what comic companies do (besides making comics, heh). People who like comics usually like collecting things, and they expect products will be made. I don't see this so much as a sell-out as Dark Horse just doing business as usual. And considering that they are putting so much thought into it proves this isn't just a cash-grab for them--they respect the property and want to put out quality. And Tarot cards at least fit BUFFY. It's not like they're putting out... spirit animals... gah. (I was going to try to be funny and suggest something absurd, but really, nothing is more absurd than spirit animals.)
Glad to hear that this is a quality product; reassured to hear all of the helpful details about what the Devil card really means; and personally would love the option of buying BtVS just-about-anything. (Now, where's our "Evil Uno, the Sinister Yet Addictive Card Game"? ;) )

As far as the Lovers card - it seems to me that Xander and Anya might have been a nice yet less controversial choice. Or Tara and Willow. (Hey, it doesn't seem likely that anyone offended by that pairing would be buying a BtVS tarot deck in the first place, does it?)
LKW - I agree, Tara and Willow would be a great choice.
Yep, Willow and Tara would have been an excellent choice.
OMG, Evil Uno! Got a little over-excited there and had a moment. I've got both sets of the Harry Potter twist on Uno and they are loads of fun. Seriously. Man, my bank acount is in serious danger. :)
I would love a Willow and Tara Lovers card (although I've always had hope in my imaginary deck for having Tara as The Star...)

Having the cards from "Primeval" and "Restless" would also be lots of fun. LKW, I also think you've hit on the marketing concept that would finally make me buy UNO:)
I've never been a fan of the idea of tie-ins, but I'm a sucker for them anyway. I like this tarot deck because it's basically a fanboy and fangirl making fan art, which I can relate to. Those who can, do. Those who can't, fan art.
I'm actually super-hyped about these cards. And since Tarot was actually used in the show I think the tie-in isn't that far of a stretch. And the pictures are so pretty it would be like having pocket sized comics!
Okay, so much for the Ouija board - I buy very few tie-in items, and this deck is gonna be it for this year.
Other than a Mal action figure, the only tie-ins for any of the shows that I have bought (besides the comics themselves) are books and I have a couple of shelves of those. But these are so lovely - and I do read Tarot cards - that I'm going to have to find a way to purchase them.
The deck in "Primeval" wasn't a Tarot.

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