Whedonesque : Comments on 16199 : Matt Roush talks Whedon.

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April 28 2008

Matt Roush talks Whedon. Again! This time he answers a question about why certain producers find it hard to duplicate the success of their first hit show in future attempts.

"Interesting topic, and while I won't refute the specifics of your arguments (except to say that Firefly was only a failure because of Fox's short-sightedness, not because of anything on-screen), I will just remind everyone that TV is a brutal business and the failure rate is spectacularly high, especially for those who try not to repeat themselves."

Could not agree more.

Note to the mods. Not sure if this article link will be accurate after the next Ask Matt goes up. May require one of those permalink things that I have no idea how to do. ;)

Highlander | Cast&Crew | 10:03 CET | 37 comments total | tags: short-sighted fox, joss whedon, matt roush

The URL is now permanent so don't worry about that.

Simon | April 28, 10:09 CET

Cheers, Simon. I just looked at the extra bits you added to the link URL and that pretty much confirmed that I really had no idea how to do that. I'm about as internet savvy as Giles. :)

Highlander | April 28, 10:21 CET

"Dread machines" ;).

Ron Moore didn't have anything to do with 'Bionic Woman' AFAIK, that was solely David Eick's baby (surprised Roush didn't point that out). Moore in fact, has a better record than any of the others (quantity wise at least) having been involved with DS9, 'Carnivale' and BSG (among other successful series, even if some of them - 'Roswell', 'Star Trek: Voyager' - weren't always that great IMO).

The gist rings true though. Boils down to statistics as much as anything - it's really hard to get a show on the air at all, never mind for it to then go on and be a success, given that that's often out of the creators' hands.

Saje | April 28, 10:34 CET

Aaaah, Carnivale! It was probably one of my top three shows when it was on the air. I still think that not allowing a third season was one of the biggest mistakes HBO ever made. Such a good show with such a good cast. Totally deserved those final twelve episodes to complete the story.

Highlander | April 28, 10:46 CET

I only smiled and nodded when he called Buffy a miracle. So worth it, truly.

Mirage | April 28, 11:16 CET

Whedon with Dollhouse
JJ Abrams with Fringe
RDM with Caprica and Virtuality

Honestly, we're so lucky. I don't know how any of these will pan out, but nevertheless... it's great that these types of shows are getting some mainstream attention. I personally don't understand the need to have multi-season extravaganzas. It's nice when they happen, but it's unnecessary. In the UK we have many great television series which, perhaps, will only have 6 or 10 episodes a season, with a complete run of only about 12-18. Frankly, I'd be grateful for some high-calibre sci-fi/fantasy/etc. even if it only ran for a little while. After all, it's still longer than a few feature films back to back.

MattK | April 28, 14:17 CET

I was coming here to point some things out, but Saje beat me to the punch. Its going to be an interesting Fall :)

zeitgeist | April 28, 14:22 CET

I personally don't understand the need to have multi-season extravaganzas. It's nice when they happen, but it's unnecessary. In the UK we have many great television series which, perhaps, will only have 6 or 10 episodes a season, with a complete run of only about 12-18.

The need? I wouldn't cede a single episode of the apparently to you over-long Buffy and Angel ;)

Saje, true that David Eick's name is forever on Bionic Woman, but all the talk and rumor off that show said that the network interference was so thick, none of the creative people could really get their jobs done. Strange to say, but Joss is probably better off with Fox.

dreamlogic | April 28, 14:36 CET

I sometimes love Matt Roush for his Joss fandom. He rightly sees the "failure" of "Firefly" as FOX's failure and not Joss's. While I've tried to remain spoiler-free (which is difficult because of the site I wrote for), all reports indicate that the first episode of "Dollhouse" is nothing less than brilliant. As for the other series, I have some hope for "Fringe," not so sure about "Virtuality" or "Caprica" (though I'm a BSG fan, and have a lot of admiration for Ron Moore's work).

Nebula1400 | April 28, 14:44 CET

JJ doesn't always do genre shows (Felicity, hello?). Has anyone heard enough about the new one to say whether or not its genre?

As for Bionic Woman, that show had potential there. Just never seemed to be able to get going to where it was supposed to go. Like dreamlogic said, too much network interference.

Oh and topic... Joss' Dollhouse will be better than any of the other shows!

TiffintheOK | April 28, 14:49 CET

Well 'Fringe' (from JJ Abrams) features supernatural mysteries so I guess it's down to whether you think the supernatural is real or not (if so it might just qualify as a drama rather than a genre drama ;).

Must admit i'm also not particularly grabbed by 'Virtuality' or 'Caprica' (and 'Fringe' sounds a lot like an X-Files knock of from what I know of it) but all those creators have earned the benefit of the doubt IMO.

... but all the talk and rumor off that show said that the network interference was so thick, none of the creative people could really get their jobs done.

And later on at least, they seemed very strapped for cash dreamlogic. Jaime's "bionic running" had pretty much just become "running" (and lots of it) by the last couple of episodes. Pity cos I reckon compared to most shows from that era, 'The Bionic Woman' actually had a lot of meat as far as reimagining/deconstruction goes.

Saje | April 28, 14:52 CET

I know they're talking about audience, not quality, but it just strikes me that I have the opposite feeling about Joss. I loved Buffy & Angel so much that I thought Firefly couldn't possibly be as good. The miracle to me was that it was.
(Maybe I could've worded that better.)

jcs | April 28, 16:46 CET

Yeah, Joss is batting a thousand so far on quality AND concept - which scares me actually. Nobody can do that forever.

shambleau | April 28, 17:26 CET

(among other successful series, even if some of them - 'Roswell', 'Star Trek: Voyager' - weren't always that great IMO)

Moore's contributions to Voyager were pretty minimal. Brannon Braga brought him on board after DS9 ended, and he jumped ship after writing just one or two scripts - the working environment was apparently just too stifling. Really sad, considering some of the wonderful work Moore and Braga did both together and separately on TNG; I think the franchise had just about run dry by that point.

Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner | April 28, 17:31 CET

I love that Matt, before even really getting to the answer part, jumped right into "correcting" the question. Huzzah!

Also, I think the larger season format gives much more leeway for character development (for the whole cast, which smaller shows sometimes lack)... not to mention large season-arcs (which is a technique I love).

cookiepartier | April 28, 17:53 CET

Yeah, Joss is batting a thousand so far on quality AND concept - which scares me actually. Nobody can do that forever.

Shakespeare did. So, no problem. It's Joss!

Amrita | April 28, 18:34 CET

"I think the franchise had just about run dry by that point."

Not the franchise. Just the writers involved in creating it at the time. Voyager as a concept could have been brilliant but became little more than a rehash of TNG but set in the Delta Quadrant. The potential for a Starfleet vessel lost on the other side of the galaxy was huge but never really developed. Enterprise was also a show that had so much possibility but lacked fresh perspective in the writing department. The 100% improvement of season four proved that to be the case but by that time it was too late to save the show from the axe.

Star Trek, as a franchise, still has potential to this day. It just needs to be given to a creative team that can use it wisely.

Highlander | April 28, 19:01 CET

I liked Seven of Nine.

jcs | April 28, 19:30 CET

Shakespeare did. So, no problem. It's Joss!

Nah, for every Hamlet and Othello there's a Macbeth or A Midsummer Night's Dream. (YMMV, of course.)

Invisible Green | April 28, 19:37 CET

I'm not up on my Shakespeare and history... do we have everything he wrote, or only the more successful things that he wrote? For example, I'm wondering if there would have been a "Billy Bob IV: Tragic pig purchase by the mayor of Wainscoting" script floating around (if Olde Foxe Theatre didn't cancel the play after one showing).

OneTeV | April 28, 20:03 CET

Highlander, I'm with you on Voyager -- it could/should have been the most ingenious of all the Treks. As for potential in the franchise, we'll see when the new movie hits; the trailer is cool. And jcs, ditto on Seven of Nine.

doghouse | April 28, 20:27 CET

That's pretty much what I meant, jcs; the creative element had just dug themselves into such a huge rut that it seemed impossible to climb out. I don't think Voyager was a bad show, but it really could have been so much more. Rubbing salt into the wound, they even introduced a number of one-off "what-if" scenarios that were so much meatier than what we were getting in the normal eps. I'm going to have to Netflix the last season of Enterprise, as I'd given up on the series long before. I'm holding out hope for the new flick, though.

I was more of a B'Elanna Torres guy myself.

Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner | April 28, 20:45 CET

Yeah, Joss is batting a thousand so far on quality AND concept - which scares me actually. Nobody can do that forever.

Clearly he's either a very talented person, an alien, or a robot.

My money is on robot. I think that GeeksOn podcast was all a clever ruse.

ETA: Being a control enthusiast also likely skews one's batting average higher if talent's involved. Or if one is a cyborg masquerading as human. That dancing was convincing, no?

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-04-28 21:25 ]

Sunfire | April 28, 21:20 CET

...an alien, or a robot.

Not sure that's fair to Joss, I mean he could be a totally normal guy that simply sold his soul to the devil.

... Hang on, that's probably worse than robot.

("I can't dance cos of my knee". As if. It's the perfect cover for an evil cyborg knee. From the future, natch)

And Seven for me though if Torres had got as much screen time then who knows - just think her arc was less satisfying and maybe a bit too similar to Worf's. And the gorgeous Jeri Ryan in a figure hugging catsuit didn't hurt my appreciation of the character any, i'd be lying if I said it did ;).

Saje | April 28, 21:32 CET

Poor Kes. So lovely and yet how quickly they forget.

Her choice in guys, however? Not so great... ;)

Highlander | April 28, 21:48 CET

Joss has something that J. J. Abrams and Ron Moore don't have though... a fanbase that would do anything for him, even take over a small european country and called it Whedonia or Josstasia.

xerox | April 28, 22:51 CET

Sunfire: Clearly he's either a very talented person, an alien, or a robot.

Quentin Travers: He's a god.

(The debate was still raging about which deity/muse when the thread got sent to the archives. I suggested Oghma; no one voted for hell-god.)

[ edited by OneTeV on 2008-04-28 23:15 ]

OneTeV | April 28, 23:13 CET

Shakespeare did.

Have you actually seen Coriolanus?

Poor Kes. So lovely

and so completely devoid of any acting ability.

I think Voyager tends to be under-rated. Seven of Nine is one of the Trekverse's all-time great characters. The first two years were execrable but and once they got rid of Kes and brought Seven in, the show improved enormously. It was always uneven, but it had some terrific episodes.

barboo | April 28, 23:36 CET

By the way is that invasion scheduled for this Thursday or next xerox? And I really must find a way to stop building the anticipation for Dollhouse. It will soon become more than my robot, I mean tiny little human heart, can bear.

onthedrift | April 28, 23:45 CET

Goes to army surplus store to purchase supplies to aide the invasion.

korkster | April 29, 00:17 CET

Joss Whedon is:
1) talented human
     A) natural
     B) soul-selling
2) alien
3) robot

He is trying a new concept for the new show due to:
1) a desire to try new things
     A) He had a new idea. (He continues to think? Why that's brilliant!)
     B) Contractual requirement. Lucifer likes new shows.
2) New assignment. The aliens want to see how we respond to this.
3) New version of programming. Vampires are no longer supported.

Sunfire | April 29, 00:30 CET

OneTeV: I'm sure that some works of Shakespeare have been lost. Not necessarily poorer ones than everything we have, just ones that weren't preserved which might be comparable to his poorer or even his middling surviving works, maybe even to the (if there is one) second tier, but not to his most important ones.

DaddyCatALSO | April 29, 01:02 CET

I think we should invade Genovia... I could really go for some pears...

xerox | April 29, 09:06 CET

Why not mention the most obvious answer? Joss is a half alien-half-robot humanoid that nearly died but bargained with the devil, and now serves his 'life' in providing highly-fabricated fictional worlds, slowly enslaving human minds.

Which Genovia, xerox? The one in the books or in the movies? 'Cause we might get separated that way ;) But I guess pears were are the movie... *checks her nerd manual*

Mirage | April 29, 11:04 CET

(The debate was still raging about which deity/muse when the thread got sent to the archives. I suggested Oghma; no one voted for hell-god.)

Shiva, no contest. For the uninitiated in Hinduism, Shiva is both creator and destroyer. :)

Shey | April 29, 11:31 CET

Bit behind the beat here, but before this falls off: barboo, Coriolanus at the Public Theater in New York with Christopher Walken in the title role. "There is a world elsewhere."

shey: Shiva, absolutely no contest.

doghouse | April 29, 13:24 CET

Shiva is also sometimes depicted dancing with one foot in the air, elbows bent, hands pointing outwards. ;-)

Shey | April 30, 09:25 CET

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