Whedonesque : Comments on 16272 : (SPOILER) Discuss Angel: After The Fall #7.

Newsarama has some preview pages up for today's issue.Major Spoiler Warning since the clear image of the cover gives away who the mystery woman is.And Major Spoilers on the Wesley pages too.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=156173

Buffyfantic | May 07, 18:33 CET

Thanks for that, I added that link to the entry. Though I can't actually make out who the mystery woman is. Is it Darla?

Simon | May 07, 18:35 CET

Got my book last week. For once IDW had them in the mail early. :) First I want to say that I'm really enjoying ATF. I really like the story and for the most part the art. As far as First Night goes ... well I miss Angel. I know that this it the story about what happened to the rest of the FangGang, but to me the hiatus from ATF is too long. That said I am interested in their stories and found Wes's story very compelling. Typical of W&H to give him the illusion of what he wants and try to take it away at a crucial moment. I was glad that Wes was too smart to fall for that. Really enjoyed Connor's story and the reappearance of Kate. I never read the Spike comics so I didn't know BetaGeorge before ATF, but think he's an interesting addition.
As far as the art - Well I really liked the Wesley art. Thought the artist captured the likenesses very well and took his time with the images. The inking and color were great too. Interesting use of color in the panels to set the tone. I didn't like the Connor art as well. While Connor looked pretty good, I don't think Kate fared as well. Whether it was the art or inking I don't know, but I don't really like it. And I really don't like the BetaGeorge art. I know it's a specific style, but it's not my cup of tea and as usual this is just my opinion. :)
Almost forgot - do they have to put an ad right in the middle of the book??? Threw me right out of the story. Edited to add spoiler text......

[ edited by resa on 2008-05-07 15:42 ]

resa | May 07, 18:37 CET

Kate? Really? I seem to remember a lot of indifference to that character back in the day.

Simon | May 07, 18:44 CET

I always liked her. I thought she had a great arc in the series and really liked the way they ended it. I think a lot of people were still rooting for Angel and Buffy to get together and while I do like B/A, I'm not closed to other pairings. Of course I came to the Whedonverse through ATS so I already knew what happened to B/A.

resa | May 07, 18:52 CET

Thanks for that, I added that link to the entry. Though I can't actually make out who the mystery woman is. Is it Darla?

It's Kate,I read a review of the issue a few days ago which gave it away as well as other spoilers.Can't wait to see the actual details.

Buffyfantic | May 07, 18:56 CET

The issue reminded me of a lyric from Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" -- Kate apparently has "a walk on part in a war", and Wesley clearly has "a lead role in a cage".

That's my only complaint, is that Kate's appearance seemed... very one-offish to me. Like "hi, let me impart some of Angel's most important wisdom to you without you realizing it's your dad I'm quoting and then go off to fight on my own, we're well met in Hell-A". Which is fine and all, but she's a cool enough character to keep around. Normal humans fighting vamps and other demons = win.

Wes' "First Night" was very nicely done. Especially the tease that it's all about Wes somehow, and that he has no idea. I also *really* want to know what was playing Fred. There's a visual tease that it was Eve (probably dead, contract bound, and shape-shifted), with the nakedness and the fig leaf, but nothing definite. *Really* creepy if it was just the Conduit.

It took me a bit to get used to "First Night" and just being the little short tales and not a wider narrative, but I like this one better than the first chapter of it.

KingofCretins | May 07, 20:15 CET

First off, in the Kate story: "hobble something together"? Ouch. Someone needs to get Brian Lynch an editor, ASAP!

I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the turn that ATF has taken with First Night. After all the anticipation and speculation about what went down on the night LA went to hell, I find the actual details surprisingly less interesting than I thought they'd be. IMHO and in hindsight, I think ATF could have done just fine sticking with the linear narrative of issues 1-5, without having to go back to the "beginning" of the story. A few flashbacks, like the one that opened issue 4, have given us enough informative glimpses while still serving the central story. It's only been two issues, but like resa I feel that the hiatus is already too long. I wanna get back to the main storyline!

My other problem with First Night is the unevenness of the art. With the exception of the work by Messina and Byrne, I've found the art unimpressive. I already miss Urru, and I'm a little worried that his departure from the title will be especially jarring when we get to #9. Yes, I know he'll be doing Spike:ATF, but why couldn't they have assigned a different artist to that project?

[ edited by topolino on 2008-05-07 17:56 ]

topolino | May 07, 20:46 CET

Memo to me: resist temptation to check sites to see what people are saying about the comic.

Topolino, I don't need an editor, Kate does. She got it wrong in the heat of the moment, she had a lot going on. You run away from demons in a city instantly gone to hell and see if you're a walking dictionary.

Oooooh, "Walking Dictionary", new character.

I miss Urru too, except I get to see his stuff in my inbox a whole lot. Ryall and I were wondering if the sites that called for his head back when he was drawing ANGEL:ATF would miss him drawing ANGEL:ATF.

Okay, I'm heading out again. I do hope you guys enjoy the rest of the series and thanks for the support!

Brian Lynch | May 07, 21:17 CET

Hi Brian. Sorry to be the one to send you running away this time. I hope this doesn't incite the wrath of the other folks around here... :(

(Flashback: "Where's not the wrath? The wrath's all over!")

For what it's worth, I can't sing enough praises for ATF 1-5, and I can't wait for the story to resume. I just wish Franco were handling the art. Just sayin'.

topolino | May 07, 21:32 CET

I hear you, man. Franco ain't done though, no sir.

Speaking of, I just got the finish colored cover for SPIKE:ATF # 3 over at my blog:

http://www.bloglynch.blogspot.com

How awesome is he?

Also saw designs for the big villain of SPIKE:ATF. Oh man, Franco is on fire.

Brian Lynch | May 07, 21:36 CET

I never thought for a second Kate would come back. After her arc on "Angel," I thought she'd be too broken and psychologically scarred to be able to step up and do anything anymore.

QuanticoMVP | May 07, 21:49 CET

Wish I could see Urru's stuff in my mailbox ;) and glad Franco's on fire over there, but I'm worried that Angel ATF will suffer for it. It seems as though the enthusiam for Angel ATF has shifted to Spike ATF. Correct me if I'm wrong ... I hope I am.

I never thought for a second Kate would come back. After her arc on "Angel," I thought she'd be too broken and psychologically scarred to be able to step up and do anything anymore."

I always felt that after she had that talk with Angel she was on the road to recovery and would be able to pull it all together. Glad to see (in the book) that she has. Hope to see more of her.

[ edited by resa on 2008-05-07 18:56 ]

[ edited by resa on 2008-05-07 18:57 ]

resa | May 07, 21:53 CET

So... I go to the store to get my Buffy and Angel comics... and I find out that the Angel comics have arrived in such terrible condition, they're sending them back... And now I have to wait :-(

Valentyn | May 07, 22:50 CET

Really enjoyed this episode...I thought the depiction of Fred looked very much like Amy...good job there! Still trying to get into the fish character (making some headway) but it just seems a bit out of place somehow. Who was playing Fred? My first thought was Ms Morgan, afterall...that would be true to the series.
I was a fan of the Kate character so it was good to see her apparently emotionally recovered and kicking demon butt! Still hoping we'll see Cordy at some point. Great job as usual, Brian!

Calledon | May 07, 23:55 CET

I hope you aren't wrong, resa. I, for one, would love to see the focus shift to Spike once in a while. Why is it that if the focus shifts to Wesley, Connor or Lorne everyone is pumped, but they have a little Spike focus and you get complaining? I have no intention on starting a debate here, just wanna say that Spike deserves equal time with the rest of the Angel group. Thanks, I'll get off my soap box now. Oh, the art? I am usually not that big of a critic on the art, but cover b, is that supposed to be Spike, really? Usually I buy every cover with Spike on it, but not this time. That can't be Spike, not to me. But I am excited about the comic itself.

[ edited by luvspike on 2008-05-07 21:48 ]

luvspike | May 08, 00:17 CET

Topolino, I don't need an editor

*Ahem*, but one "wrings" a neck, one doesn't "ring" one.

Unless it's a musical neck, I suppose.

Chris inVirginia | May 08, 00:50 CET

Agreeing with luvspike on this one. Spike is the onions in the stew, if they skimp on his inolvement it just isn't the same. I, for one, feel the lack of a Spike, or even an Angel or Wesley (read really interesting and engaging male) calibre character in Buffy 8. Mind, I'm not saying that Giles (I've always loved Giles) or Xander aren't interesting. What I'm saying is that more testasterone(sp.?) and a little more romantic interest couldn't hurt. Needs onions? salt? paprika?

cmbackshane | May 08, 00:51 CET

luvspike, do you have issues with the art of Cover B, or thematic issues?

Agree about the lack of testosterone in Buffy: Season 8. If they brought Dracula in for that reason, he, um, ain't cuttin' it. While Chosen worked wonderfully as a series finale, the setup it left Joss with is a bit problematic, especially after the amount of flak Season 7 got for "wasting" screentime on secondary characters that meant little or nothing to the audience.

Enisy | May 08, 01:04 CET

Wow, Chris inVirginia, you really got me. I better hobble together a list of fixes for the collected edition. I'm gonna wring Ryall right now and tell him.

Brian Lynch | May 08, 01:09 CET

Looks, good. Am excited. Spike will get his focus in Spike:ATF. Have patience people.

korkster | May 08, 01:11 CET

Enisy, don't like the art. Spike looks older than my grandpa, and even though Spike is older than my grandpa, he shouldn't look like it. In my mind Spike is hot, cover b is not.

luvspike | May 08, 01:14 CET

Well,I think Spike is getting equal time like the other supporting characters in the story plus he's getting his own spin-off/prequel miniseries to go along with the main ATF series.So actually he's probably getting a little more face time when you factor that in.

I think the story is giving us the right balance of the major characters.

As for season 8,I agree that I would love more Giles but I think we're about to see Xander's arc get very interesting based off what happens in today's issue 14.I just don't think Angel or Spike belongs in Buffy's story at this particular time and I'm enjoying their own adventures.I just don't think Angel/Spike are necessary to season 8.I think both Season 8 and ATF are doing just fine with their respected cast of characters.That doesn't mean a guest appearance or an occasional crossover after ATF concludes wouldn't be cool though.

Buffyfantic | May 08, 01:20 CET

resa-From what I've seen, fans have a better opinion of Angel: ATF than Buffy S8, so I'd venture to say that the series isn't suffering.

luvspike-Spike is a wonderful character and it's great about the additional ATF issues dedicated to his story. However, other characters in the Angelverse are as beloved as he is and it would be nice to see as much dedication paid to them.

menomegirl | May 08, 01:34 CET

On the subject of Spike-centric stories, let's not forget that Spike's getting his own After the Fall series. I think that's more than enough Spike-centricity, no? After all, you don't see Gunn, Illyria, Wesley, etc. getting their own After the Fall storylines, do you? If I were you, I'd be pretty darn happy.

Supersymmetrical | May 08, 01:43 CET

Ryall and I were wondering if the sites that called for his head back when he was drawing ANGEL:ATF would miss him drawing ANGEL:ATF.

Ahem, that would be some people on said sites :)

zeitgeist | May 08, 01:45 CET

menomegirl, you misunderstood me. All I was doing was responding to a comment made that this comic 'has shifted into Spike ATF'. I only wanted to point out that Spike should have equal time with all the other characters without everyone spazing out thinking he is taking over the comic. That is all. Somehow I knew that if I said this I would be sorry, and I am.

luvspike | May 08, 01:46 CET

Countdown to people counting the number of panels Spike/Lorne/Wes appear in and then burning each other in effigy begins... now.

zeitgeist | May 08, 01:48 CET

luvspike-I understood what you were saying. I was just pointing out that Spike has a spin-off of his own so you know, 'equal time' for him really isn't an issue. I'm not worried about him 'taking over'. I never thought that of the character on either Btvs or Ats, although I know a lot of people do.

zeitgeist-Ha. No counting and no burning. I'm just saying.....

I just got through reading the issue and it was great. I continue to love Brian Lynch's writing on ATF. Loved Kate's appearence! (and wonder of wonders, I was actually unspoiled for it!) And I'm totally liking the artist who did the Wesley panels.

menomegirl | May 08, 02:20 CET

Did anyone actually like the Cover B design? Because I actually did. In fact, I preferred it to the Cover A design, which is part of the reason that I didn't get the first part of it.
I mean, I know that some have likened it to a bad Batman ripoff, and there was a comment about how Spike looked old, but those are the reasons I like it.
I love the lighting coming from the burning (I assume that's what it is) below and the style used. It's completely different from any of the other covers done so far.
Also... hey, Spike's old... and he only looks it here because of the vamp face... hence the wrinkles.

wenxina | May 08, 02:27 CET

Dear Bryan Lynch: I'm glad you have a sense of humor. I loved your pun in your response to Chris inVirginia, since I caught the same error too. I'm actually liking where you're going with these almost vignette-like tales that fit into a larger structure.
And I LOVED the last page... I'm curious to see if the issue of using Slayers for training will be explored further, possibly involving some plot bleedovers with Buffy Season 8. I don't mean a full-on crossover (kinda hoping for none of that), but references made across the series, maybe.

wenxina | May 08, 02:33 CET

I know it's all in mutually-admiring fun around here, but some people (ahem) have been raising the copyediting issue for a while - it was true of Shadow Puppets as well. AtF has been riddled with errors that a single monthly halfway-attentive proofreading pass would've (should've) caught. I don't know at what stage they're introduced, but it's a safe bet that embarrassing homophone errors are writerly in origin, right?

I know it's a small thing but it's a small thing that's a big mark against IDW. So, so easy to keep tabs on this stuff up front!

waxbanks | May 08, 03:17 CET

Thanks for that.

Brian Lynch | May 08, 03:26 CET

This is getting better and better. I'm very interested to find out how this all ties in with Wesley. Also I'm really happy to see the Slayer issue addressed. I knew there had to be at least a few in LA. I guess Gunn kidnapped them all for training purposes. Interesting.

As for Kate, I always liked her and I'm glad to see her back. Her disappearance from the show always bothered me, as I couldn't understand why the PTB would intervene to save her unless she had some very important part to play in the future. I guess now she gets to play that part!

joelseph | May 08, 03:50 CET

My comic book store didn't get Angel this week. Is there a shortage?

GrrrlRomeo | May 08, 03:56 CET

I have my copy now and loved it.The Wes story was so sad.He knew he was being played.Was that Eve pretending to be Fred or someone else?The big issue now is that it seems he is the key to everything that's going on.Plus this story makes the end of issue 5 with the Fred reveal all the bigger to us and Wes.

The Connor conclusion was also good.It was so great seeing Kate again.It looks like she's really pulled herself together from where we left her in season 2.And it shows that Angel can really make a difference in someones life.He really did save her soul.It seems Connor also has a thing for her.Boy would she freak if she found out who his dad is.
I'm hoping she shows up in the main ATF series at some point and learns Angel is Connor's father.

The Betta George frame was really interesting.It seems some slayers were stationed or were in L.A. when it went to hell and Gunn is using them as training dummies for his vamp gang.

Can't wait for Part III of First Night.And what Chris said in the letter page sounds ominous once we get back to the main story starting in issue 9.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-05-08 01:04 ]

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-05-08 01:08 ]

Buffyfantic | May 08, 03:59 CET

responding to a comment made that this comic has shifted into Spike ATF'

luvspike that's not what I said. I said

It seems as though the enthusiam for Angel ATF has shifted to Spike ATF

My concern was that Brian's (and IDWs)enthusiam had shifted from Angel ATF to Spike ATF. I have no problem with Spike in Angel ATF or Spike getting his own book, it's just with Brian so pumped on Spike ATF (he came here to a discussion of Angel and promoted the Spike book telling us how great it was) and Franco being moved off of Angel that the Angel story was in danger of being 'neglected'.
I almost didn't post my previous comment because I don't want to get into a Spike vs Angel debate, but I have a concern. To be clear - I think it's great that Spike is getting his own series ... I just don't want the creaters to get so involved with it that the Angel story gets left by the wayside. I'm sure that they (Brian and IDW) can do justice to both series, its' just that comments here (and elsewhere) caused me some concern.

resa | May 08, 04:31 CET

I loved this issue, the scenes of Wesley and Fred were wonderful (voices perfect, drawing beautiful), it was amazing seeing Kate again (with excellent likeness), and of course I always adore Betta George! My only complaint was the price gouging on the variant covers (I usually buy an extra copy to have the variant cover, but I won't when they are priced two or three times what the issue should cost).

embers | May 08, 04:33 CET

Ah, this was much better than last month's. I really loved it. The Wesley story was absolutely beautiful and heartbreaking, and though I was a little underwhelmed by Kate's story, I was genuinely glad to see that she got herself together. Interesting Slayer mention at the end.

And the art...the art! Nick Runge did fantastic work on the Wesley story. I am so glad that he's going to be the regular series artist because--and this sounds meaner than I intend--I guess I'm one of the few who still hasn't changed his opinion about Franco. ;-)

embers, if your store is price gouging, you should find another (if, of course, there are actually others in your area). The store that I had gone to for most of my life started upping the prices on the variant Buffy covers when the series started, so I said, "Screw it," and went to another store that didn't. Turns out the people that work there as well as the selection are generally better, so it all worked out in the end.

UnpluggedCrazy | May 08, 04:36 CET

resa, my enthusiasm for ANGEL:ATF hasn't subsided in the least. It's just that SPIKE:ATF is new so it's exciting to talk about as new details can be revealed.

As for bringing up Franco going to SPIKE, someone mentioned him, I joined in. Franco is one of my favorite people in the world, so I'm psyched to continue working with him and I'm going to share that.

Okay, I gotta go get ready for a taping of comics on comics (comicsoncomics.com). Two of the topics being discussed are BUFFY and ANGEL. If anyone's near Meltdown on Sunset tonight at 8, stop on by and be in the audience.

So ends my day at Whedonesque! See you guys later, and thanks for going out and getting ANGEL 7 a series I am very excited about as much as SPIKE (it's true!).

Brian Lynch | May 08, 05:16 CET

Ooh, that Comics on Comics thingie sounds good! I'd go if I could.

UnpluggedCrazy | May 08, 05:42 CET

Thank you Brian ... I appreciate the time you took to set my fears at rest. btw - I subscribe from IDW and pestered them mercilessly (is that a word???) until they put the new subscription up. That's how excited I am about Angel. :)

resa | May 08, 05:52 CET

As far as we know, Buffyfantic, Eve is still alive. Thus, I was pretty sure it was Lilah, since we've seen her playing at being Fred before, it would only follow that she'd relish the chance to do that to Wes.

jclemens | May 08, 07:03 CET

jclemens - I'm not sure Lilah would relish hurting Wes. My feeling is that she really had feelings for him and regretted the pain he experienced. She was still evil, but I believe she had a soft spot for Wes and wouldn't want to intentionally hurt him.

resa | May 08, 07:22 CET

I'll be the dissenter and say I wasn't keen on Runge's art at all. On one two-page spread, Wes looked like at least 3 different people. I don't require absolute mirror image or anything, but consistency would be nice.

Like, in the third page with Fred. He looks great in panel 1. Then in the middle of the page, the jawline's different, the nose is different. It looks like an entirely different dude in Wes's clothes.

Story, emotional tone, all of that's good. But I get distracted when people don't even look the same two inches down the page.

[ edited by swanjun on 2008-05-08 13:42 ]

swanjun | May 08, 07:35 CET

As far as we know, Buffyfantic, Eve is still alive. Thus, I was pretty sure it was Lilah, since we've seen her playing at being Fred before, it would only follow that she'd relish the chance to do that to Wes.
jclemens | May 08, 04:03 CET

Hmm,I thought the scene in issue 5 with Wes in the white room implied Eve was dead but still under contract.They threaten to replace Wes by bringing back Eve or a zombie Lindsey

Buffyfantic | May 08, 07:42 CET

I went back and reread that, and the actual quote goes...

You're not the only option. A few incantations and we can have a zombie McDonald up and ready to go. Or maybe Eve--

I'm not seeing anything in there that definitively says she's dead. She's undoubtedly not in the good graces of the Senior Partners, but killing her might be a bit quick for their tastes.

jclemens | May 08, 08:01 CET

We saw her standing naked wearing nothing but a fig leaf while a serpent coiled itself around Wesley. I'm not a doctor or anything, but that might be a clue. I'd say it's probably Eve. If not Eve, the only other thing that fits is the Conduit (the Big Cat/Scary Gunn).

KingofCretins | May 08, 08:32 CET

I wasn't keen on Runge's art at all. On one two-page spread, Wes looked like at least 3 different people. I don't require absolute mirror image or anything, but consistency would be nice.

You're not alone, swanjun; Runge's work leaves me cold too, and for pretty much the same reasons you give. Plus, that panel with Wesley grinning has got to be one of the creepiest images I've seen in ATF so far.

On a less critical note -- the last page of the issue sure is intriguing, but I'm not even sure how to process this information yet. What exactly are we seeing? I've read some theories here that Gunn has been trapping slayers and using them to train his vamp gang. If that's the case, I wonder how exactly he managed to pull off that little stunt? Couldn't have been easy.

Also, based on that one panel, it doesn't look like Gunn's boys were faring too well...

topolino | May 08, 08:47 CET

Plus, that panel with Wesley grinning has got to be one of the creepiest images I've seen in ATF so far.

It was totally creepy!

swanjun | May 08, 16:44 CET

I think it was creepy because his teeth were really big and shiny!

I loved this issue. The end of the Wes story made me sit back in my chair and say "Oooh".

MadeToLoveJoss | May 08, 19:07 CET

topolino: I think that the whole Slayers in the basement thing is used as a training ground, or rather a gladiator ring for Gunn's boys. It's kinda like a survival of the fittest thing; if you make it through x-number of rounds with the one force that was meant to destroy you, you're worthy of joining the crew. Or something to that effect. So no, not all of them will probably fare well.

wenxina | May 08, 19:09 CET

Y'know, Franco is great, but I actually like Runge a bit more based on this issue. Wesley's creepy grin actually seemed right somehow to me, like I'd seen it before. I am almost sure that there's a scene in one of the episodes where Wes is stubbly and world-weary (whoo-hoo, narrowed it to 2.5 seasons!), he's acting a little hysterical, and he grins like that. Might be "Shells" or "Underneath"? It was momentary, whatever it was. I just feel sure I've seen Alexis make that face, or one like it -- however I got there, I took that smile as Wes being kind of slow, like drugged and woozy, waking up into this fantasy.

And I loved the rest of his likenesses for Wes and NotFred. The best, IMO, is page 11, panel 4 -- NotFred watching him go (hates to see him go, but leaves to watch him leave). Runge perfectly captures what Amy herself did a couple times in "The Girl in Question" while she was playing Illyria-as-Fred -- just dead eyed, calculating stare from the eyes of that wholesome, pretty face.

Because Fredlyria seems to be a pretty important part of what's coming next when "Angel: After the Fall" returns to the continuing storyline, I think he's going to be great for that.

KingofCretins | May 08, 19:53 CET

I enjoyed this issue, as I have enjoyed all of After the Fall thus far. The Wesley story was great, it really seemed to capture Wes' attitude of the fifth season and following Fred's death, it was quite easy to envision that actually happening following the finale.

I actually kind of like the idea of Kate's appearence as a one-off cameo. Not anything against the character, but sort of in the same way Angel's words to her in her last appearence on the show helped her find direction, they could do the same for Connor. Nothing more needs to be said or seen from her, the same way she didn't need to see or hear from Angel anymore. Or at least that's how I perceive it.

I am so excited for Gunn's story, it isn't even funny. I am so pumped that we get two issues next month.

Nolan | May 08, 20:54 CET

I was somewhat indifferent to Kate the Cop on the series, but I love Kate the Rogue Demon Hunter.

At some point, though, all of Angel's former lovers and potential love interests will have to be put together in a room to swap stories or pull each other's hair. Call it: "The Bachelor: a very special issue of Angel: After the Fall."

[ edited by bigsofty on 2008-05-08 19:14 ]

bigsofty | May 08, 22:08 CET

Oh bigsofty, I love that idea! They could invite Cordelia to show up and MC the panel discussion of all of Angel's former girlfriends/potential love interests (and Betta George could be there to tell us what they are all REALLY thinking!). I forgot to mention in my enjoyment of the Wesley section that I loved seeing him forced into his 'straight-jacket' (Watcher tweed suit) as he continued to struggle against becoming the company man for Wolfram & Hart. It was very subtlety and beautifully done.

embers | May 08, 22:24 CET

KingofCretins, I've seen Wes' smile too in the actual series. I agree with you, it's there. I think we see it when Wes is "crazy" in "Shells" & "Underneath" somewhere, but we DEFINATELY see it in Season 3. It's the episode where Wes was about to tell Angel all of the silly apocolyptic things that were deemed to happen if Connor was born. Scene breakdown:

We is watching Angel & Connor like a hawk to see if anything (earthquakes, fire, blood) happens.

Nothing happens (yet).

Wes BUSTS out laughing (creepy smile) and told Angel what a silly man he has been... talking with hamburgers and all.

Earthquake, fire, & blood happen.

It doesn't end well.

Personally, I think Wes' smile is "creepy" because we RARELY see him smile & laugh. We forget that he's capable of that, with all the pain he's been in.

I love Wes.

korkster | May 08, 23:13 CET

I just read it!!

First of all, Kate never did win me, but I liked how they ended her participation and i feel her return is cheap, i did like what she taught Connor, so if she doesn't appear any more, fine. But I don't want kate.

The wesley story ruled!!!!! altough fred isn't as curvy!!! but i loved the story and the prospect that wes is key.

The fish...meh, except for the slayers part which intrigued me.

luis1210 | May 08, 23:16 CET

I loved this issue! The varying art from points of view (Wes, Connor, BG) worked for me, it just took a little to get used to. I’m even more excited to find out what happens next (when do Connor and Spike meet?! Family tree mapping! LOL). I didn’t care about how Gunn was sired after the initial shock wore off (I sort’ve settled on it in happening ala Harmony. *mind jolt* God, please let it not be Harm trying out her siring skills!) but since it was brought up as a soon to be reveal, I’m curious to find out. I’m missing Lorne already… I really hope we see a bit more of the angst, it is such an interesting color on him.

Kate having her own mission in life and her “supplier” got me thinking on how in the world she wasn’t obvious on Angel’s “This is my town and I’m its keeper and savior from the darkness” radar – unless she wasn’t back in LA long enough for him to notice. Not to say I didn't actually like her here... surprising really, since I didn't care for her much in the show. I won't be miffed if she comes back. But, I have this weird feeling that all we'll be seeing of her is in the flashbacks and that Connor had took over after she met her 'demise'.

And the big thing. Slayers. Finally. There are enough of them to spare. So far ;)

Mirage | May 08, 23:19 CET

God, please let it not be Harm trying out her siring skills!

At the rate that everyone else is showing up, Harmony, Cordelia, and Doyle should be appearing in the next three issues. Just sayin'.

jclemens | May 09, 00:05 CET

Read the issue...loved the issue....cant wait for next issue already!

The Wes story was magnificent. SO beautifully played and drawn.(I await more of Runges art with gleeful anticiapation) Of course it was all a dream/nightmare by W+H...but it makes it all the more heartbreaking to see. And to see the change from 'StubblyWes' to 'WatcherWes' was chilling. And to think the FauxFred was gonna let him go through with the 'throes of passion' until the revealed the truth...shudder! Great story...and pips the Connor last issue as my fave so far.

The Kate story was excellent as well. I loved the idea behind it. And I agree that it would be ok to leave her appearance as a one off (though I wouldnt mind if she came back), because we finally know where the hell she went after Epiphany.Mooney's artwork was great again-I love the likenesses and the atmosphere that is created.

Betta george-fun as always. Nice little tidbit about Spike (a fun shoutout to the fans of Asylum/Shadow puppets methinks rather than a confirmation of canonisation)- and yes the Slayer thing was very interesting. Although I dont want them to become a major part. Cos....well just cos:)

angeliclestat | May 09, 00:35 CET

I really hope we see a bit more of the angst, it is such an interesting color on him.

Yeah, me too. I'm not too thrilled with the bubble of happy Lorne's living in after he killed Lindsey.

menomegirl | May 09, 03:33 CET

Menomegirl, your crush is showing. Angel should've had me there.

DaddyCatALSO | May 09, 04:30 CET

DaddyCatALSO-Really? I find it interesting that you think anything about my previous post shows that because while I've made comments that he's my favorite character on Ats, my references to Lindsey have been few and far between on this site and only when warrented by the comic and/or spoilers. I have not asked or demanded that he be brought back in the comic, unlike other posters in reguards to other characters.

And FYI, my comment was about Lorne and what's going on with him, not about Lindsey.

menomegirl | May 09, 06:22 CET

I really liked this issue!

I agree the Wes grinning pic was very frightening! Haha. But the rest was great (though he has blue eyes, *coughcough*) The fact that he may be the reason Angel loses fits so perfectly with his character...he just seems to attract that kind of irony like a magnet. I don't know if that was Eve (the Angelverse character) playing Fred, but the Eve (biblical) symbolism was pretty heavy-handed (fig leaf, snakes, anyone?) Perhaps that's a hint that it is Eve (Angelverse)or maybe it just fits in with the "After the Fall" theme. Phew. I hope that made sense.

I never cared much for Kate on the show, but she seems pretty cool now actually.

Can't wait for Gunn's story!

ShanshuBugaboo | May 09, 06:43 CET

The Wesley bit was kind of touching. And "he's the key to all of this"? That sounds pretty vital! I can't wait to find out more.

I was totally surprised to see Kate. Positively so. I was never a huge fan of the character, but I always wondered what happened after last time we saw her. It was really cool to see her return after all this time, and I'm glad to see that she has pulled herself together and grown as a person. Perhaps a little cheesy with the quote-spitting, but it worked, and the whole thing made me curious to find out more (such as what she's been through and where she is now, in the main timeline).

And Betta George...what's not to like? Dude's a fish and can skype your brain. How awesome is that? Hold on. Slayers? Oh. My. Galoshes. MORE!
I mean, I am very much looking forward to the next issue.

GreatMuppetyOdin | May 09, 07:11 CET

This entry and the Buffy one are now linked to on the sidebar for ease of discussion.

Simon | May 09, 11:56 CET

"Dude's a fish and can skype your brain."

Heh....skype your brain:) Wouldnt that be handy.

Ya I like Betta George-he's in it just the right amount.

angeliclestat | May 09, 12:30 CET

menomegirl, even though it was only a short story, we did see how Lorne dealt with that pain and built himself a corner of the world to metaphorically atone for his sins. That's good enough for me (but then again, I never liked Lindsey).

UnpluggedCrazy | May 09, 17:46 CET

But I really like Lorne, UnpluggedCrazy. *wink* And as such, I want to see diversity in his character. We were shown how hard and painful it was for him to do this one last 'favor' for Angel in the final episode, I'm kinda hoping we see more of that hurt and pain. And maybe a little anger at Angel for having him do it.

Mirage | May 09, 19:07 CET

Lorne is shallow and adaptable. He's a demon, after all, and we are not even sure he has a soul. He doesn't like violence, it upsets him. But feelings of guilt - his own or someone else's? He wouldn't dwell too much on that. He was quite chipper about lawyers in the basement too. Plus he saw lots of dead people in Hell-A.

So maybe I could reluctantly buy that copout for Lorne. But still, it's a loss, IMHO, that Team Angel's dubious actions in NFA, Drogyn included, are not addressed in Angel:ATF. Angel beats himself up for joining W&H, and then for provoking W&H to send L-A to Hell by taking a stand - but not for *how* he took a stand. Isn't there a lesson to be learned that good ends can't be achieved by dirty means? Isn't that what "Inside Out" and Angel-4 was about?
Ignoring all that would seem like a missed opportunity in Angel:ATF.

Nata | May 09, 19:15 CET

UnpluggedCrazy, no, we didn't see him deal with the pain of what he'd done. We saw him walk around as LA went to Hell and then he ran in fear. It's true he helped the people he came across who were fighting but he's not the one who made that miniature utopia in the midst of evil-magic did that. Lorne is living in a world of denial. He isn't atoning for anything.

Nata, Exactly. I agree with everything you said (in the last paragraph). And I'd agree with your assessment of Lorne, if it wasn't for the expressions on his face during his last scene in NFA. He may have been shallow and non-judgemental once upon a time but he's clearly not now.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-05-09 17:37 ]

menomegirl | May 09, 20:26 CET

For now, I just want to say that I really liked the Nick Runge artwork, probably more than any other we've seen in this series, and so am personally no longer concerned about the change in regular artist, but rather actually quite pleased.

LKW | May 12, 04:18 CET

I'm on the fence about the artwork in the Wesley story. There were some absolutely breathtaking likenesses of Wes and Fred, yet in half the other panels it didn't look like them at all. I quite like Nick Runge's drawing style, i just really hope he can be a bit more consistent with the likenesses in future.

restless_in_NZ | May 17, 09:34 CET

I haven't made it through all the comments (I only just got the issue last night and just read it this morning), but as a newbie to comics since Season 8 started, can I ask: is it common for the cover of a comic to have no relation to the contents? (Gunn, Gwen, Spike on the cover... nice art, but why them?)

ETA: Not Spike, duh. OK, but still, Gunn and Gwen...?

[ edited by Kirochka on 2008-05-18 17:38 ]

Kirochka | May 18, 20:37 CET

can I ask: is it common for the cover of a comic to have no relation to the contents?

Yes. It's a proud tradition of the comic book world that goes back many decades.

Simon | May 18, 20:44 CET

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Simon... I did wonder!

Kirochka | May 18, 21:00 CET

May 07 2008