DollhouseForums propose guerilla fan-marketing for Dollhouse.
"Dolls Unite" campaign proposed to build buzz about the show before it airs, in an effort to prevent cancellation WAY in advance.
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2008-05-21 01:36 ]
May 20 2008
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cabri | May 20, 17:32 CET
Can the title of this post be changed to not imply that it is coming from the Dollverse site?
[ edited by TamaraC on 2008-05-20 23:36 ]
IrrationaliTV | May 20, 17:32 CET
Um... no.
roadrunner | May 20, 17:46 CET
Amen, sister.
Signed, the Enthusiasm Crusher
(That said, they do at least suggest not making this a "prevent its cancellation", but something more positive.)
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-05-20 23:49 ]
@theonetruebix | May 20, 17:49 CET
gossi | May 20, 17:53 CET
impalergeneral | May 20, 18:26 CET
My hokey example of an effective way to promote:
You meet someone who tells you that their favorite movie is the Matrix, and you talk about some of the themes with them. Then, you mention that there is this really interesting sounding new show that is coming out that explores a lot of similar themes, etc.
ShanshuBugaboo | May 20, 18:34 CET
zeitgeist | May 20, 18:43 CET
onthedrift | May 20, 18:51 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 20, 18:55 CET
Caroline | May 20, 19:05 CET
dreamlogic | May 20, 19:11 CET
swanjun | May 20, 19:13 CET
But what dreamlogic suggested is a good idea.
Caroline has the best idea, though. I guess we can't wait to see Joss and Eliza back on TV. Let's just hope we don't have to wait too long, since the fears of another Hollywood strike is starting to loom.
impalergeneral | May 20, 19:39 CET
Yeah. Unbelievable. Apparently the bosses are replaying the same strategy they used with the writers. Only the actors won't shut down mostly just television and only incrementally, they'll shut down all production overnight if they strike. What are the moguls getting at?
dreamlogic | May 20, 19:53 CET
jcs | May 20, 20:07 CET
dreamlogic | May 21, 01:11 CET
*smack!*
dreamlogic, you know not what you speak! Speech gives essence. Soon... soon... *evil chuckles*
Back to topic: I don't think it's a bad idea to plan & organize. Then when December rolls around, the fans would have a promotion campaign ready. *not speaking from experience ;)*
korkster | May 20, 21:15 CET
Krusher | May 20, 21:18 CET
Quit | May 20, 22:57 CET
the ninja report | May 21, 00:14 CET
During the next few months we'll see many sites battling for fans' attention. It'll be quite interesting to observe. Though I am looking forward to the niche sites, I've always been a fan of those. Good times ahead.
Simon | May 21, 01:13 CET
BAFfler | May 21, 01:29 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 21, 01:41 CET
It reminds me of the fan campaigns that led up to the release of Serenity in the cinema.
Simon | May 21, 02:50 CET
Would buying the products advertised really make a difference? "Oh, 1000 people bought Dyson vacuums today: that must be because we sold commercials during Dollhouse!" More to the point: I'm not just going to buy things because I saw a commercial for them in-between scenes of Dollhouse... that's what the man wants you to do.
If you like the show, support it. Holding viewing parties would be fun and I'd probably do that anyways, but other than that, I don't know.
Linnea1928 | May 21, 03:53 CET
Did we learn nothing from the Browncoat backlash? For one, all the preaching on all websites in the world still only got the movie to #2 here in the States, and in the end, the average person on the street STILL had no idea about Serenity. The people preaching only managed to piss off a lot of other geeks and give the fandom a bad name in Geek World. (And just to defend how fans acted in the weeks before Serenity opened: Universal were encouraging the fans to do what they could to spread the word. They relied on fans to carry the buzz... some people took spreading the word as their duty and carried it too far. Universal created a monster--a tiny, annoying monster, but still.)
Dizzy | May 21, 04:56 CET
Well in fairness it does say "contact brands that advertise during Dollhouse" then "organize bulk purchases of said brands' product" i.e. they'll know because the fans tell them. And advertising and corresponding sales blips are part of the fine web of information we're all caught in everyday (shops collate information at the point of purchase which they then either use for re-stocking - giving manufacturers indirect information about sales - or actually sell back to analysis companies, giving manufacturers more direct information, even down to the sort of people buying their products. At a price obviously ;).
And viewing parties are great fun but they're utterly meaningless regarding the show's survival unless the host or the attendees have Nielsen boxes. Can't hurt to spread the word though, if you're understated and sane about it.
Here's what I think: let's watch the show first and see if we like it. I know, crazy idea.
Very sensible. And I must admit, the whole "doing nothing" aspect also appeals quite a bit ;).
Saje | May 21, 05:02 CET
Dizzy | May 21, 05:18 CET
Judging from previous fan campaigns, I don't think that's a tactic that has ever worked.
Most fan campaigns tend to run along the following 10 steps:
1) Hype about an amazing idea i.e. "guys wait till you see what I have come up with".
2) Launch of amazing idea.
3) Much talk about amazing idea.
4) Someone suggests doing an internet petition as well.
5) Much talk about amazing idea.
6) Someone suggests sending food items as well.
7) Much talk about amazing idea.
8) Someone suggests emailing too.
9) Amazing idea now talked to death without anyone actually doing anything.
10) Two months later, someone else comes along with same amazing idea.
Simon | May 21, 05:21 CET
How did I get this cynical? :)
[ edited by Dizzy on 2008-05-21 11:40 ]
Dizzy | May 21, 05:34 CET
I like all your ideas too Simon. "Doing nothing" is kind of the common thread that binds all the options i'm interested in together. It surrounds me, penetrates me. Yes, "doing nothing" is my The Force.
"Lazy beings are we, not this crude matter [... that can actually be arsed to do stuff]".
Saje | May 21, 05:40 CET
Besides, a preliminary 'save Dollhouse' campaign will only reinforce the public expectation of a short life span of the series. And the public will be wondering whether a show is worth tuning into if its own fans don't believe in its longevity.
And, Simon, great ten steps. I nearly choked on my coffee.
[ edited by Effulgent on 2008-05-21 12:38 ]
Effulgent | May 21, 05:42 CET
[ edited by Effulgent on 2008-05-21 11:46 ]
Effulgent | May 21, 05:45 CET
You know what we need to do? A Variety ad. ;)
Dizzy | May 21, 05:53 CET
Saje | May 21, 06:11 CET
Fan campaigns like this (supporting an unseen show) just dilutes the power of fan campaigns with more substance. Count me out.
Andy Dufresne | May 21, 06:25 CET
fadalow | May 21, 06:38 CET
For anybody wondering my stance on this (yes, yes, I know you all are) (I'm being sarcastic btw) - I really don't think there's any point having fan campaigns to save shows before they air. In fact, I think they actually hurt the shows chances in some way. Seriously. Why? Because the last thing you want is people at a network/studio/whatever looking at and talking about cancellation before the thing has even aired.
If you like the look of the show, be positive. Join sites, get excited if you want. Be fannish, in short.
I wasn't going to put this one out there for many reasons into the public eye, but I will 'cos of this one - the amount of people and reaction the Dollhouse preview trailer got was significant in size (more people watched the Dollhouse trailer in an hour than watched the Drive trailers the entire time they were out there), caused a lot of buzz online and... You know, I think the reaction was pretty good. That got noticed by the network. Trust me, it did. That kind of thing is better than any pre-show fan campaign (and most post-show fan campaigns, frankly) is ever going to be, as it has a positive impact in perception. And nobody did anything other than click links and watch stuff and type stuff. Well, except me. I didn't sleep for 4 days. But I did get a thank you note.
[ edited by gossi on 2008-05-21 12:56 ]
gossi | May 21, 06:56 CET
I've no doubt they have good intentions, but fadalow brings up an excellent point: how much weight can promotion have if you've never seen what you're promoting? If someone isn't a Whedon fan already, saying, "it's gonna be great 'cause it's Whedon! He did BtVS, Angel, and Firefly!" is more likely to come off as evangelism than promotion.
Also, a poster in the thread talks about how they do fan marketing for The Dark Knight. He/she mentions they have dozens of people dressed as the Joker mill about in a public place. If I saw that, it would freak me out, and not in a "I need to figure out what this is and make a purchase/watch the show/join the cause!" It would catch my attention, but not in a productive way. I think these fan campaigns run the risk losing touch of what effective marketing is and turning off the average person.
[ edited by Dizzy on 2008-05-21 17:17 ]
Dizzy | May 21, 07:00 CET
[ edited by gossi on 2008-05-21 13:03 ]
gossi | May 21, 07:03 CET
I'm thrilled by the number of sensible comments appearing here. As other people have said, one of the things that most breeds resentment is 'fannier than thou' types taking premature ownership of something meant for a far wider audience.
silvius | May 21, 07:20 CET
Saje | May 21, 07:22 CET
jcs | May 21, 07:48 CET
Garim | May 21, 07:58 CET
And wow, "Except me" makes me sound such a knobhead. I'm not really. Well, much.
gossi | May 21, 08:00 CET
Dizzy | May 21, 08:09 CET
The shower outfit!
Did anyone else flash back to 'The Karate Kid' after reading this ? 'K, just me then.
Saje | May 21, 08:16 CET
My approach is: There's a new show starting in January. I expect it'll be really good. It's created by the guy who made Buffy and Firefly. I'm gonna watch it.
Sunfire | May 21, 08:53 CET
Call me strange, but that doesn't seem to me to be a message we'd want to send.
I will be shocked if I personally don't totally love this show (especially after seeing the trailer), but hey .... no good will come of appearing to be raving maniacs, to the uninitiated.
Shey | May 21, 09:27 CET
That never works, and generally gets a response of the "what, aren't we fans anymore" or "I guess you're not a real fan" or "why are you crushing our enthusiasm" variety. (Or, at least, that's what happens with most fly-by-night Firefly campaigns, anyway.)
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-05-21 16:49 ]
@theonetruebix | May 21, 10:48 CET
Saje | May 21, 10:53 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 21, 11:34 CET
If we're going to do any marketing of the show, let's keep it at the level of picking a few friends and sending them a link to the trailer with a comment like "Hey, saw this, think it looks cool, watch it and tell me what you think." And let's save the marketing for December at the earliest. It's still May. Nobody cares but us.
Oh, and possibly Joss, Eliza, et. al. They might care too, I suppose.
BAFfler | May 21, 11:36 CET
But see, the problem with that is that the most vocal fans are the ones that get the attention. The most vocal are also often to be the most annoying, most pushy, and most detached from reality. I’m not saying that about this group, because this effort just seems misguided. But the problem with efforts like this is that it encourages those who are most likely to go overboard and turn people off.
There were actually very few truly obnoxious Browncoats, but the fandom got a bad rep because those few were making so much noise. I'm pretty much a live-and-let-live, do what makes you happy person, but I've lost patients with over-enthusiastic fan campaigns because the most vocal, most evangelistic people wind up misrepresenting the entire fandom.
Dizzy | May 21, 11:50 CET
Gregory House may have been able to help you save those patients!
zeitgeist | May 21, 12:05 CET
This is the kind of thing that would raise a show's profile with the media buying agencies I work with, and that would matter to my clients, who consider which programs to advertise on sometimes months in advance. Their considerable interest would no doubt, in turn, be of interest to FOX.
On the other hand, one of these media agencies recently held a high-profile summit for industry insiders and clients with big name presenters, panels and guests. The send-twenty-tons-of-peanuts campaign to save Jericho was discussed as an example of the success of viral fan/community marketing and what's going on online in the world of superfandom. Yay, some might say? /shakes head. Nay. The moral of the story was the silly execs who took note, bought into the hype, and revived a poorly-rated show that did even worse the second time around. Clients, network-y folk and media buyers alike were left with the cautionary tale of what can happen when your eyes stray from the data.
barest_smidgen | May 21, 12:09 CET
Don't make fun of my Word spell check. It's vary sensiteve to critisism. Now loook whut yu maid it doo!
Dizzy | May 21, 12:13 CET
Besides, there's not a lot you can do to stop the more vocal fans anyway. I mean, what are you gonna do, send them "cease and desist" memos? They won't heed the warning. Organize counter-rallies and counter-events? That would just make us look ridiculous. No, better to concentrate on spreading the word in a way that might best be described as "quiet" and "dignified"--show the trailer to a few select people; if they like it, tell 'em to pay it forward; and so forth.
And if that fails, we can always try this famous tactic: "Hey, guys, look! Eliza Dushku's gonna be back on TV! Man, she is friggin' HOT! Wonder what she's doing? Let's watch!"
BAFfler | May 21, 12:17 CET
fangless | May 21, 12:19 CET
The clue is in the name - "buzz"
That's cos it's annoying.
These inter-website fan-gasms are counter-productive. As soon as people realise it's a bandwagon (or band-whedon) is the moment they want to get the hell off.
Buffy managed to survive almost not getting picked up after half-Season 1 without the internet and a fanbase of several.
For the sake of Dollhouse, let's pretend we don't exist. It'll be fun / borderline normal.
Imagine Dollhouse is a surprise birthday party. Normal people don't bore others in advance about what a great party it's going to be and who's going to be there and why they should get an invite etc etc.
No. We turn up. "We dance, we kiss, we schmooze, we carry on, we go home happy.....What do you say?"
malcolm | May 21, 12:24 CET
BAFfler | May 21, 12:26 CET
As someone said above, that is what 'The Man' wants you to do.
Err, yeah, but surely that's kind of their point ? It's The Man that decides whether the show continues, right ? So you wanna please The Man and The Man is pleased by The Bottom line increasing.
It's not something i'd ever do but since the sole reason ratings matter is because of advertisers and their influence on the studio, the rationale seems sound to me (provided the effect is significant and the advertisers know it's from 'Dollhouse' viewers). It's why shows that aren't necessarily huge in the ratings BUT do well in key demographics are more likely to be left on the air.
Saje | May 21, 12:29 CET
Peeps need to chillax a bit on the campaigns. Let's just enjoy the show, and trust if Joss can finally trust TV again, that he's placing that trust in it for good, viable reasons. Buffy got itself off the ground, and Dollhouse can, too.
cookiepartier | May 21, 12:29 CET
Also, if Joss is going to wear the shower costume to Comic Con, can we get him to wear a beer hat too?
cabri | May 21, 12:41 CET
zeitgeist | May 21, 12:52 CET
Dizzy | May 21, 12:55 CET
Also, failing to prepare is preparing to fail so I think we should not do that too, just in case.
Saje | May 21, 12:59 CET
[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2008-05-21 19:02 ]
barest_smidgen | May 21, 13:02 CET
Every tv viewer has had shows that they enjoyed suddenly cancelled (without resolution to the story arcs), leaving them feeling that their investment in the show/characters was a waste of time or at the very least they come away highly dissatisfied. So why bother watching a show that apparently already has one foot in the grave?
Oh, and where do I sign up to be a non-non-fan?, a.k.a. crusher of idea crushers?
JossIzBoss | May 21, 13:18 CET
JossIzBoss | May 21, 13:21 CET
Less buzz. More zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
malcolm | May 21, 13:43 CET
gossi, I like what you write. It's good to know that Dollhouse was "click-able". I'll leave it to you to keep us in the "know".
barest_smidgen, excellent points on the Jericho nuts. I never knew the outcome of that. So I guess fandoms can "talk the talk", but can't "walk the walk"... just "talk about walking", I guess.
BAFfler, "cease and desist" memos? LOL! That gave me images of having a Whedon police force issue out tickets to crazy fans to keep their voice down. :) It's good to smile in the morning.
korkster | May 21, 13:46 CET
malcolm | May 21, 13:50 CET
I would go set one up on blogger or something, but it's so much easier to just read here.
Sunfire | May 21, 14:32 CET
onthedrift | May 21, 14:56 CET
We have a slogan!
Sunfire | May 21, 16:07 CET
Great! I'll go print out a bunch of t-shirts, hang up some fliers, distribute some...oh, wait...nevermind. I'll just sit here and follow our creed.
JossIzBoss | May 21, 16:23 CET
Simon | May 21, 16:25 CET
[ edited by Dizzy on 2008-05-21 22:33 ]
Dizzy | May 21, 16:31 CET
Besides if Fox doesn't kill it, Joss will probably kill of the characters.
Pumps | May 21, 17:06 CET
@theonetruebix | May 21, 17:15 CET
zeitgeist | May 21, 17:22 CET
'Zackly. I think one is either in or out. And I'm out. The whole "conversion" thing makes me shudder, anyhoo, and this smacks of it. I did notice that that site was trying to get a logo contest going by posting comments at Dollverse, which I thought was a bid for members and traffic, so I assumed this campaign was, too.
Also, I have a tendency to want to save any stray organizing and graphics juice for Whedon-fan-campaigns with a charitable or political purpose (coughMissionEchocough). Of course, if Joss himself asked us to mention something specific to folks at some point, like "please go to youtube and watch Dr. Horrible, you'll like it" or "check out the cool Dollhouse trailer" - and I agreed with it - I'd do it. I'd assume that Joss would know whether some action like that would be helpful... but until that day, not so much. (Though as b!X has suggested, if they did post Dollhouse video assets, I would try my fumbling best to make an interesting or possible dull trailer.)
b!X: "I question anyone's lack of interest if they've actually made a slogan for us."
The interest in being amusing or snarky must not be mistaken for interest in being all Dollhouse-recruity.
zeitgeist: "We need an inaction fansite -- you know, one where we can fail to sign up for the things that we will then not do."
I think maybe I've already achieved the ultimate inaction fansite. When Dollhouse was announced, I bought DollhouseFans.org and I've done exactly nothing with it.
My panties are so bunchless, I can't tell you.
QuoterGal | May 21, 17:23 CET
Sunfire | May 21, 17:51 CET
My first major inaction was to fail to buy a hosting package for it, and I've managed to not do that for about seven months. It's not easy, but I'm just the gal to not do it. Of course, the real test will come when the domain is up for renewal - if I manage to fail to renew it, then I think I'll really be showing the kind of apathy we're aiming for.
[ edited by QuoterGal on 2008-05-22 00:17 ]
QuoterGal | May 21, 18:17 CET
You're welcome!
zeitgeist | May 21, 18:42 CET
Who knows? Who cares?
I applaud y'all on your sound thinking in terms of Dollvangelism, your inactivity, and (why not?) any existential musings one can extract from the above thread. Plus, at one point Dr. Pepper came out my nose. Painful, but funny.
BandofBuggered | May 21, 18:45 CET
GVH | May 21, 19:11 CET
GVH | May 21, 19:13 CET
Saje | May 21, 19:15 CET
Doesn't everyone just love the fact that we can have almost 100 posts based on apathy and inaction? That's dedication (or disloyalty, however you take it) to the cause. I'd applaud, if I cared enough.
...Does this feel Python-esque to anyone else? No? Just me and the dead parrot, then. Well, off to go shopping and have buttered scones for tea! 'Tis Wednesday, after all.
BandofBuggered | May 21, 19:39 CET
embers | May 21, 19:47 CET
mister0 | May 21, 20:15 CET
zeitgeist | May 21, 20:17 CET
I didn't bother tuning into Btvs while it was on because...well I couldn't because I didn't get the channel. But when I did get the channel, I still didn't bother because all anyone ever said was how it was better than the shows I watched instead of just saying what it was about in enough detail that I would be interested.
My tip? Stop not telling people what a show is about, the plot, details you think would be of interest and/or the storyline so far because you don't want to "spoil" them. Let the spoilers flow.
I've noticed spoilerphobia with Dollhouse already, and it's on basic information that anyone who isn't already a Whedon fan would need to know to spark their interest.
GrrrlRomeo | May 21, 21:03 CET
zeitgeist | May 21, 21:14 CET
BandofBuggered, thanks for sharing the love. It was your comment that caused the wetness on my screen:
Who knows? Who cares?
Truly funny. This is the best thread I've ever read, and it's all based on our committal non-committals to take an innaction on a subject that hasn't come to birth yet. Kudos. :)
GrrrlRomeo, I totally agree with you on telling people specifics about a topic you're interested in. I'll use myself as an example:
My friend, Sandra, kept asking me if I've read Harry Potter 1-5 (as 6 was closing in on a release date). Every time I'd tell her no, and every time she would proceed to tell me every.single.plot.device for books 1-5 as she re-read them. By the time book 6 came out, I went to Borders and purchased all 6, and read them back-to-back. It had gotten to the point where I'd ask her what was happening in the story. When that occurred, I caved in and declared myself a fan of the big H.P. Not that's good advertisement (& good storytelling).
korkster | May 21, 21:30 CET
mister0 | May 21, 21:48 CET
I hope they have fun spreading the word, too. In ways like "I saw this brilliant trailer for a new show and I'm really excited about it, you should check it out," and not in ways like "You have to watch this now, now, now, its the best thing ever and you need to buy Tide bleach and Glad Clingwrap so it can stay on the air even though it hasn't aired yet, but its going to be cancelled when it does and OMG FOX WHY DO YOU HATE ME SO!?!?! Let me tell you all about Firefly! Joss Whedon is god, why do you worship these false idols?!?".
The new Fox has a lot of confidence in this show and we should have confidence that Dollhouse will get a fair shake.
zeitgeist | May 22, 07:08 CET
"My other personality also doesn't signal when changing lanes !"
"If you can read this then you clearly haven't been imprinted with the personality of a pre-school child !"
"What would Jesus do ? Just give our techs a minute and you can ask us"
"Honk if you love commercially oriented examinations of the philosophy of identity !"
OK, some may be a leetle bit wordy. And obviously by "create bumper stickers" I mean "do nothing".
Saje | May 22, 07:20 CET
zeitgeist | May 22, 07:24 CET
Shey | May 22, 07:24 CET
Oh hellz. I did didn't I ? Just when inaction really seemed to not be achieving anything too. See what happens when you don't not take your foot of the gas and inadvertently keep your eye on the ball ? Shit, that's what happens. I feel like I haven't just let you all down but i've also let myself down. I'd apologise if I could be bothered.
Oh and "Actives do it as other people !"
...
dammit !
Saje | May 22, 07:41 CET
Dizzy | May 22, 08:12 CET
Um... I don't see where you are getting such negativity. Really, is that necessary? No one on that thread is talking that way. They want to help Dollhouse succeed. They want to get the word out to their family and friends. They are tired of their shows getting cancelled.
And what's wrong with making a bumper sticker? It's way more disconcerting to see unneccessary rudeness and condescending remarks. I don't get that attitude at all.
mister0 | May 22, 09:23 CET
That's the issue under discussion here-- assuming the word needs to be spread now because the show's in danger of being cancelled. It does have a somewhat conversionary tone.
Sunfire | May 22, 09:35 CET
Well, personally I have a big bag of negativity set aside for exactly these occasions ;).
succatash, the part you didn't include in your quote of zeitgeist makes it extremely clear that he hopes they promote the show in a restrained, sensible, non-aggressive fashion (and enjoy doing so). Removing that from your quote makes it seem much more negative than it is. After all, surely none of us want "fans" to "promote" the show in the latter fashion ? It can only be a bad thing.
The bumper sticker idea is a joke but obviously making bumper stickers is not actually an act of evil.
[ edited by Saje on 2008-05-22 15:37 ]
Saje | May 22, 09:36 CET
Personally if someone I knew was very enthusiastic about a TV show my first response would be "Sounds good. What night's it on ?". If they then went on to tell me it wouldn't actually be on for another 8 months and that they'd only seen a two minute trailer I might be less inclined to take their opinion seriously.
Saje | May 22, 09:45 CET
I don't honestly think anyone is trying to rain on anyone else's parade. For myself, I'm just weary of the zealotry I've seen in the past few years, and the negative attention that comes with it. Thus far the people on that thread seem to be a nice, enthusiastic group of fans, but these things have a way of getting out of hand very fast. And like most everyone else, I don't think a "Save Dollhouse" campaign being launched before the show has even shot two episodes is a fantastic idea. It makes it sound like it needs saving, which isn't a great message to be sending to people.
Dizzy | May 22, 09:47 CET
Saje | May 22, 09:54 CET
I dunno. I bet Evil League of Evil bumper stickers are pretty bad.
Sunfire | May 22, 09:59 CET
zeitgeist | May 22, 10:04 CET
And yeah, I may have to make an evil exception for Evil League of Evil bumper stickers.
Saje | May 22, 10:13 CET
I see a lot of parade raining in this thread. And I do sympathize with your weariness of zealotry. But it's a double edged sword, because kicking over other people's sandcastles brings a negative attention of its own.
I just wish everyone would be nice, cuz this fandom thing is supposed to be fun, right?
mister0 | May 22, 12:06 CET
I get the excitement and enthusiasm. I did the whole Browncoat thing, after all. Many of us did. But there comes a point when you look at history and see that, A) the effect these fan campaigns have is usually small, B) many times, when over-done, these promotions back-fire and turn people against the very thing being promoted, and C) reality gets ignored in favor of a Great Idea.
People can be fans in any way they choose. It's not like there's a fan police. But just as some fans choose to engage in campaigns, other fans have a right to say those campaigns are misguided... and in the case of trying to "save" Dollhouse before it even airs, say the message is potentially harmful. But at the end of the day, we're all fans hoping for the same thing: a fantastic Joss show that runs for years.
Dizzy | May 22, 12:26 CET
Actually I got the feeling we were mostly making fun of ourselves. And that it was fun. I certainly meant my comments about just hanging out here and commenting to be self-parody. There was a recognition early in this thread that some of us will not be taking the approach suggested in the linked thread. And after some genuine comments on the downsides to fan zeal, things devolved into more acidicly funny stuff that I took mostly to be self-parody.
Except a few things, like zeitgeist's hilarious impression of someone who's taken things much too far. And honestly, who hasn't seen that happen? It was very accurate, but clearly a caricature. Not the real thing. I didn't take it as a direct mockery of the linked thread at all. That thread seems to be carrying on just fine, regardless of whether or not are telling jokes about our own inaction and discussing pros and cons of fan enthusiasm here. I think maybe you are misinterpreting tone here.
Sunfire | May 22, 12:45 CET
(nice is absolutely not the same as reverent and I think this thread typifies Whedonesquian irreverence. After all, the thing you should be least reverential of is yourself ;)
A lot of the comments on here have absolutely nothing to do with the linked post - as is usually the case we start from a specific instance and generalise so that we're actually talking about the idea of the linked post.
And of course, if we'd wanted to be nasty it'd be easy enough to join the forum and leave personally insulting comments there. AFAIK no-one here has done that.
Saje | May 22, 13:10 CET
Sunfire | May 22, 13:19 CET
Saje | May 22, 13:25 CET
(You'd think I could just leave it at that - agreeing with them - but nope, that just wouldn't be moi, would it?)
I'm hugely pro-Dollhouse and a big ol' Whedon fan. You could even call me obsessive, since I spent hours upon hours capturing and examining all the cool interstitial shots in the first Dollhouse trailer. (Okay, granted that I'm still home sick and procrastinating, but still... pretty obsessive nonetheless, n'est ce pas?)
I'm also proud of so much of what my fandom has done, including but not limited to: raising money for Equality Now (CSTS & much else), raising money for the MPTF’s Work Stoppage Relief Fund (Cash for the Crew & others), Backup Bash (B3), "Bears that Care for BC Women's", raising money for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, supporting the recent WGA strike (Fans4Writers and others), donating to the WGA-Foundation Industry Support Fund (F4W and others), raising funds for Kids Need to Read, and so much else... stuff I don't even know about.
But what does make me a little wary is stuff like this - the original link for this thread. It's okay to say, "I've got a barn and you know the songs, so why not put on a play?" Enthusiasm is great, even if there are occasions when I think it's a little naïve. I'm all for guerilla marketing, and Joss has made it clear time and time again that he thinks it's nifty when fans get all into it and make stuff based on his creations.
What I'm not so crazy about is guerilla marketing done before its time. Months before the show has aired, when the network has indicated that they are frikkin' thrilled about Joss and his show, when the buzz and the pilot script reviews are hot and heavy, when the trailer-viewing is sucking up gigs and gigs of bandwidth, it feels more than a little... (I can't think of a word that's not insulting, but I don't mean to be)... over-the-top? Pre-mature? Cuckoo for CocoaPuffs? to be getting all anxious and pre-emptive about promotion and possible cancellation. It rings all the wrong notes for me... lil' warning bells go off... and I back slowly away.
But I will say that about two years ago - when I guess I "joined" this fandom - even using the word "fandom" gave me the willies, and now, after working with and being associated with all you guys, I use it proudly.
I'm happy to spend large amounts of my free time with you amusing and educating folks, and to be (hopefully) a resource and a support for Joss[us] and All His Works.
I just so don't want us to be his little albatross.
Edited: 'cause I screwed up my linky-code. Duh.
[ edited by QuoterGal on 2008-05-22 19:57 ]
QuoterGal | May 22, 13:54 CET
And now I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. To the point where "Browncoat" has become a bad word and small fan projects are met with scorn. So now this group of Joss fans wants to do something for Dollhouse, and the instant reaction is largely contempt and exasperation.
Now it's "cool" to do nothing and I wish this were not so.
No, I don't think they are going to help Dollhouse. But I don't think they can hurt it either. So let them have their fun, I say. I don't know - being a fan is fun, and to me it's all about enjoying the ride. Which means participating in stuff because it makes you feel like you're a part of something.
How much money did we spend on pencils? And do you guys really think that changed anything?
mister0 | May 22, 14:04 CET
Not sure how much was spent on pencils, but the difference here is that the strike was on and it showed support of the writers. Did it do any good? That was debated heavily at the time (and probably still is). If you were to seriously compare the pencils to a pre-emptive "Save Dollhouse" campaign, it would have to have been us deciding to send pencils to a network in support of a strike that may potentially happen in the future while the networks and writers were telling us that the strike had been averted.
If you don't think that they can hurt, do you think that they can help? It seems to me that if you think that they can have an effect, you have to agree that its as possible that that effect could be positive or negative. If they can not have an effect, why do it and why would it matter then in any case?
zeitgeist | May 22, 14:23 CET
That the money could have been better spent? I'm sure you'll find people in the fandom that strongly agree with you - including me. I personally believe that the money should have gone to BTL worker relief, and we should have gotten the pencils donated, but it happened very quickly. I resolved it for myself by matching my pencil donation with a BTL donation.
But you're wrong in claiming that people necessarily don't want to jump aboard this particular campaign because it's not cool to do so - I can certainly speak for myself in this. As a hugely uncool dork, I'm not hopping aboard a pendulum and swinging into "apathy" in reaction to some Browncoat activity in the past. Browncoats & other fans still participate in fan activities I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole - but I do spend my time volunteering for other Whedon'verse events - ones I believe in.
"... let them have their fun." Are we stopping them by voicing our opinions - and having some fun with it? What, and the solution would be not doing that and just shutting up?
Really not gonna happen - nor do I think it should.
[ edited by QuoterGal on 2008-05-22 20:27 ]
QuoterGal | May 22, 14:26 CET
As for whether or not a "save Dollhouse" campaign now could hurt it? I think so. As with anything in pop culture, if it is overdone and overexposed, it loses its appeal. And as for rabid fans, they can be very offputting. People will just get to the point where they'd rather listen to the squeaky glass noise than hear another word about whatever it is the fan's promoting (in our case Dollhouse or Serenifly).
As for the tone in this thread, I think that part of what makes everyone here so fantastic is that we do have the ability to be so irreverent. We can satire ourselves. And we do it with a wink and a grin, and no one is harmed.
Even so, we look at things critically. What people are saying is true: we don't know whether Dollhouse is any good. We're assuming, based on what Joss has done before, that it will be. I get excited about Dollhouse to the point of incoherence at times; I think it's great that we have time to take a step back and be a little rational about it.
...But what if it's bollocks, and it's not worth saving? What then? Then, as Whedonesquers, we have just undermined any future campaigns about anything Joss will ever do from then on. Part of our strength stems from the overall quality of that which we support. Lose our credibility, and we're just a bunch of sad geeks.
EDIT: removal of some stuff based on Zeit and QG's input about the pencils and the writer's strike. It's all been said.
[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-05-22 20:30 ]
BandofBuggered | May 22, 14:29 CET
And it's not that it's cool to do nothing: that's us being silly. Silly people live here. The thread just as easily could have devolved into why Glory is never seen in the same place as Ben (they're ignoring each other!) or if Morgan Freeman should be cast as an active. No one is actually saying we shouldn't do anything to promote Dollhouse. We're just poking fun at ourselves as lazy, cynical fans.
Those folks can have their fun. No one is stopping them. Fun! Go have it, you people over at that forum! Have lots! Seriously. Just 'cause people are snarky here, doesn't mean people there can't have their fun.
The pencil thing may not have changed much, but got a ton of positive attention. And really, the whole comparison is apples/oranges as one campaign is about saving something that doesn't need to be saved yet (and may never need to be saved), and the other included action by and endorsement from the very people we were supporting.
Edit: damn y'all are fast typers.
[ edited by Dizzy on 2008-05-22 21:30 ]
Dizzy | May 22, 14:45 CET
Again, I think you are misreading the tone in the "we are awesomely inactive" comments here. It's a joke. This site links and exults every time something Dollhouse related hits the internet. Every time Eliza Dushku is mentioned in something. This is a very excited community. But some of us have been shooting the shit a bit in this thread. Because it's MAY and the show starts in JANUARY. Come the fall, I don't doubt the tone here will change. It won't be the same tone as in the linked thread, but it will be different. The time for initial squeeing has come and passed. This show looks to be possibly much bigger and more mainstream than the previous ones. I think this is the calm before the storm. Now is the time for gentle humor and reflection. I think both are very important. The time for massive excitement and fan activity has yet to come**. Also important.
The idea of preparing to promote a show you haven't seen is kind of inherently amusing though. I made similar comments when people starting writing fan fiction before the pilot had been written. It's funny! But it's also kind of philosophical-- are you a fan before you experience something? Can you be? If you're a fan of someone, are you a fan of their work before you even know the work? I think many here think yes, and some others think no.
** Unless you are gossi, I hear. Man's got a scary kind of initiative.
Sunfire | May 22, 15:08 CET
korkster | May 22, 16:15 CET
(And yeah - The Gossi is The Gossi and there is no Other.
QuoterGal | May 22, 16:29 CET
zeitgeist | May 22, 16:33 CET
(it's no End of Your Tether, that's fer sure *shudders*)
Basically, tone aside, I think maybe a bit too much store is being put in what we farties say in some random thread on Joe T'intarwebs. If those other guys are that determined to do their thang then I very much doubt a thread with some snarky humour (largely not even directed at them) is going to stop them. All we're doing is shooting the shit.
(and talking of shooting things, whoever looked at the final cut of Indy IV and thought "Yep, perfect" would be my current nomination ;-)
[ edited by Saje on 2008-05-22 23:59 ]
Saje | May 22, 17:59 CET
I gave up awhile ago on linking correct Serenity information to more general sites like Facebook. People know about the comics anyway, or they don't care to know and really do enjoy mostly sharing their heartache over what Season 2 might have been. And every Tuesday, someone digs up a misleading article and starts a sequel movie rumor. Same with Buffy. It hurts to watch. They love those shows so hard.
ETA: Really low level. Sitting around and commenting really is true to form.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-05-23 00:16 ]
Sunfire | May 22, 18:15 CET
I didn't read anyone in this thread being negative - just the usual funny, sometimes snarky - thoughts of true Whedonesquers. I'm all for enthusiastic - after all, I'm a member of the Awesome Super Very Excited Clubhouse on Dollverse - but I don't expect to keep that level of ASVE for the next eight months!
I think the show is going to be something I want to watch because a) I love Joss's TV work - and Serenity; b) I think the premise is an exciting and challenging one; c) I like the actors I've seen before who are cast; and d) I've seen the trailer. After all, b) and c) are what made me want to watch Firefly before I really knew who Joss Whedon was. (Yes, I know - late to the party again!)
When I'm talking to someone I know who likes Joss's works (some of whom I have 'converted', btw), I mention that he has a couple of new projects out - Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog and Dollhouse, coming in January. Most people are then interested enough to ask for more details and I tell them what I know or point them in the direction of the trailer for the latter.
For instance, yesterday a fellow Browncoat and I were having lunch at a fairly high-class restaurant (2 for 1 coupon!) and a waitress came over to our table (from another section), because she had seen my Serenity button and wanted to talk about Joss. We asked her if she'd heard about the new show and she was enthusiastic about the trailer. She also is a BSG fan.
I have a Serenity calendar in my office and several people have come in lately, seen it, and started rhapsodizing about the movie, the series and Joss. I don't have to do a thing. See, I fit right into this group. ;) Also, too busy organising CSTS screening and preparing to go to my first Comic-Con to do anything!
Long post, but I'm on holiday so I'm being more than usually long-winded! ;)
samatwitch | May 23, 11:58 CET
korkster | May 23, 14:07 CET
Leaf | May 23, 18:06 CET
zeitgeist | May 23, 21:16 CET
cabri | May 25, 22:08 CET
It also demonstrates a lack of faith in the new FOX regime, which is just silly since, like I said, we've already been shown that they plan to give DH their full support (Come on, they greenlit 7 episodes based SOLELY on Joss's pitch script and presentation, and added an additional 6 episodes to that order before the pilot episode had even finished filming, for crying out loud; when has that EVER happened before?).
DigificWriter | May 28, 19:48 CET