Whedonesque : Comments on 16454 : (SPOILER) Buffy Season 8 #15 preview.

Oh, wow. This looks amazing! I can't wait.

Not sure if we need to spoiler tag things but just in case this is an early post that a spoilerphobe might accidentally catch, I shall anyway.

Although on the first page I thought that it was possibly Xander narration and I was excited for an issue through his eyes, but dying Renee was damn cool too.

Looks like some great Willow stuff coming up, and love that Buffy's going to be leaping - I wonder if she's feeling all gifty.

brynmars | May 28, 00:03 CET

Okay,the first two pages really got me good in the gut.

Buffyfantic | May 28, 00:06 CET

Not sure if we need to spoiler tag thing

Not for the preview but if anyone is going to discuss spoilers for issues after #15, best use the old spoiler tag thing.

Simon | May 28, 00:11 CET

OMG! Poor Xander, I teared up at Renee's monologue, especially the small "I'm so scared."

Yay, finally, we get to learn more about Willow's lost year.

Sosa Lola | May 28, 00:16 CET

Damn. They used that internal narrative to heartbreaking effect there.

Sunfire | May 28, 00:19 CET

I may not be too keen on this arc as a whole, but that second page of Renee's thoughts made me tear up in a big way.

swanjun | May 28, 00:20 CET

Sorry, new to the whole starting a thread thing. Figured I needed to warn people of the spoilers contained, even if it's pretty evident. Should I edit the original post and remove the spoiler tag then?

wenxina | May 28, 00:21 CET

Oh wow, the first two pages were a gut-punch. I liked what I saw and that gives me hope that this arc is going to live up to the talent of the writer penning it.

How many days until this issue comes out?

menomegirl | May 28, 00:21 CET

A week from tomorrow.

wenxina | May 28, 00:22 CET

I think you did things correctly, wenxina. The question was about the need to do this to stuff.

[ edited by swanjun on 2008-05-27 21:26 ]

swanjun | May 28, 00:25 CET

Figured I needed to warn people of the spoilers contained, even if it's pretty evident.

I was being confusing. Keep the spoiler tag on as it warns people "hey there's spoilers". And feel to free to discuss the preview but if people want to discuss what happens after the preview, use the invisible text.

As for Renee being dead, I quite liked her. And what's up with Willow and is that the demon from issue 10?

Simon | May 28, 00:27 CET

It looks like it to me. I just reread that on Sunday, too.

swanjun | May 28, 00:28 CET

Another thought: I like that Buffy's showing serious fears about heights, flying, and that sort of metaphorical risk-taking and leading when she's having all these leadership anxieties. It's pretty neat, and also pretty scary to see her unnerved.

Yes, I think that is the same demon, Simon.

Sunfire | May 28, 00:30 CET

I personally love this preview.

I got choked up on Renee's inner monlogue and Xander's tears, and I love Dracula's "He's not alone".

crazygolfa | May 28, 00:31 CET

Finally Dracula is Kicking ass!

Brasilian Chaos Man | May 28, 00:31 CET

Hmm, I think so, especially with it being so long until the issue comes out.

Personally, I like the spoiler-tags. They warn me away from clicking on stuff I really would rather not know in advance.

Simon-Not sure but I found that very interesting. Re:Willow: Wasn't she supposed to be a goddess at the end of "Chosen"?

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-05-27 21:37 ]

menomegirl | May 28, 00:31 CET

Thanks for confirming the spoiler tag thing. How exactly do you do that invisible text thing?

[ edited by wenxina on 2008-05-27 21:39 ]

wenxina | May 28, 00:38 CET

New and TERRIBLE use of the inner monologue. As I said in a previous thread, I like the fact that no character is safe. If this is canon, real danger is necessary. So it's Snake Woman who warns Willow of what leads to "Time Of Your Life", huh ? I like how the pices of the puzzle are coming together.

Perseo | May 28, 00:39 CET

Instructions on how to use invisible text can be found at the following URL.

http://whedonesque.com/?read=howto

And hey does anyone think the secret order of women who watch the watchers are ever going to get mentioned in season 8?

Simon | May 28, 00:41 CET

menomegirl: I don't think that Willow actually became a goddess at the at of S7. It was probably more like Kennedy telling her that she was the "man"... with the appropriate tweak.

[ edited by wenxina on 2008-05-27 21:44 ]

wenxina | May 28, 00:41 CET

Simon: Thanks for pointing me there... very helpful. :)

wenxina | May 28, 00:43 CET

wenxina:I seem to recall one of the ME writers saying that she was, but I don't remember if it was in an interview or at Bronze:Beta. Then again, my memory could be faulty.

Simon-That would be cool but aren't they all gone?

menomegirl | May 28, 00:46 CET

Simon said:

And hey does anyone think the secret order of women who watch the watchers are ever going to get mentioned in season 8?

I Hope not.
I hate as they as suposed to be the oposite to the Watcher's Council (Femeale good X Men Bad), but instead they're just stay for centuries only seeing the wrongs of the Watchers ("Cruciamentun", etc).
The Guardians become inefective at least.

Brasilian Chaos Man | May 28, 00:49 CET

Ooooooh. This is good stuff (and oh, Renee:( )It looks like there will be some very interesting Willow developments too...eee. Can't wait.

ETA: Oh geez-I went back and reread to make sure-is anyone else getting little shivers at the word "ascension"?"

[ edited by JessicaMelusine on 2008-05-27 22:12 ]

JessicaMelusine | May 28, 00:56 CET

Renee being dead never was a spoiler, IMO -- it was self-evident in 8.14.

Those 7 preview pages are THE BEST pages we've gotten in Season 8 so far. WOW. Just wow. The Willow stuff... wow, watch how the relevance just sneaks up on you. And loyal friend and leader Buffy, woman of action Buffy. Awesome. Just awesome.

KingofCretins | May 28, 01:01 CET

OMG just OMG. They were amazing!!! Renees internal monologue was so touching! 'Never got to tell him' what Renee?!?!? Too early for I love you? Willow's storyline seems to be unfolding and the tip mentioned on the #16 solicitation is revealled. New York, here they come! Possibly gonna be the best issue so far. Many people are saying that this arc doesn't compete with No future for you, but I gotta disagree, there has been development of characters, heart ache, and possibly one of the most evil villians the series has seen. I just hope that this conclusion will be extended by a few pages just so that there are more pages to lap up due to the amount of pages shown in the preview!

bennyboi91 | May 28, 01:08 CET

Jessica:

Is anyone else getting little shivers at the word "ascension"?"

Not so much shivers as feelings of "Yes! Yes! I knew it!", but yeah...

stormwreath | May 28, 01:22 CET

That was amazing! Ugh. I quit my addiction for 3 days (weekend) and look what I have to look forward to! That'll teach me to not check the internet on a timely, 10 minute basis.

Hey, snake lady was in #10? Do you guys see any ties? I'll have to re-read, I guess, but I was hoping for the lazy-quick answer and was hoping one of you would give your theories.

Definately seems like the jump into #16, for sure! (Although Buffy would have to change clothes first, unless that came with the time-jump experience.)

korkster | May 28, 01:24 CET

I always kind of considered Willow a goddess after Chosen. At least metaphorically. It seemed appropriate :-) Besides, I think by this point she could totally kick Glory's butt.

As for snake lady... So happy to see her again! It will be great to find out what Willow has been up to, and just imagine the drama that will ensue! (Remember naked Willow?) I'm sure Kennedy (who's supposed to have a bigger part in Time of Your Life) will not like that.

Valentyn | May 28, 01:31 CET

Yeah, in issue #10 Willow said "I wasn't naughty here" when presented with an image of illicit snugglies. So, I guess she's fixin' to be naughty there?

Pardon my Southernness—sometimes it just can't be ignored.

swanjun | May 28, 03:56 CET

Actually, Willow said "I wasn't naughty here" when she and Buffy were presented the scene of Buffy having been betrayed.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-05-28 01:28 ]

KingofCretins | May 28, 04:27 CET

It's more like in-between. I thought she was still talking about the clench, because I doubt she'd call a betrayal "naughty."

swanjun | May 28, 05:08 CET

The only dialogue during the hot-girl-on-snake-action scene is Buffy saying "Ooh! Look! Here's a you bad thing! Wow. Your bad is way better than mine." Willow's comment about "I was never naughty here" is in reference to the *next* place Sephrilian sends them to.

stormwreath | May 28, 05:19 CET

Hm, maybe so. Maybe Willow just means "I totally boffed that snake chick, but I didn't boff anybody in a creepy dungeon like this!" :)

swanjun | May 28, 05:36 CET

well... yeah. That's what she said and meant. But she in no way characterized her boffing demonic snake lady as un-naughty.

KingofCretins | May 28, 05:54 CET

So Kumiko knows the snake lady too (Vasuki is the name of the king of nagas in Hindu mythology)

feigenbaum7 | May 28, 06:59 CET

Woot! Frothin for next week, this issue looks grouse. Can totally see SMG as Buffy, staring down 100m fall with an epic battle behind her and going "just like a diving board, just like a diving board" haha love it.

So whats the building with the weird green ring around it? Empire state building or chrysler or something.... not too savy on NY buildings. Is it part of the crazy snake minga's tail... is that building key to the next arc in some way.....

aus-mitch | May 28, 07:54 CET

Wow this preview rocked. I didn't cry though, don't know why not because it's really sad. But loved Dracula fighting and LOL at Buffy trying to convince herself to jump. Damn I hope Willow kicks the crap out of this rude ass witch.

alexa | May 28, 09:22 CET

Yeah, I think the thing around the Empire State Building is the snake's tail. Willow's arc will probably be her ascension towards godly state. It's been a long time coming, and what a meaty storyline. Drama will abound.

Perseo | May 28, 10:10 CET

Sudden inexplicable character death...oh, yes. This is a Joss Whedon joint!

stevekaw | May 28, 10:18 CET

Some of, if not the best pages for the season in my opinion. It was just heartbreaking to hear Renee's thoughts as she died and poor Xander :( He looked so horrified at the sight of her. One of things I was always greatful for in 'Chosen' was that he never saw Anya's body or the horrific moment when she died, because it was terribly graphic and isn't something he should have to see. But he saw Renee die in this way, and that's going to hit him hard.

Also I just loved Buffy in this scene. I loved how she ordered the slayers to circle around Xander rather than expecting him to get up and fight. She knew how he was feeling and didn't try and change that, she just wanted to give him some cover. And I adored how she also said she wasn't leaving Xander either, seriously where was this Buffy in the season six or season seven?

Willow stuff was also very cool, and my oh my, looks like she's got some competition. Anyone who's thinking she's gone to uber witch, looks like she's met her match, no one is safe in the Buffyverse! Also very surprising twist that the Kumiko has a connection to the snake lady as well and has been following Willow's progress.

Other nice stuff;

* Loved Buffy trying to talk herself into jumping off the ledge to get Willow. Reminds me a lot of Fray, which isn't a surprise given the next upcoming arc. And I could totally picture SMG reading those lines.

* Dracula's a evil bastard but I couldn't help but smile at his "he's not alone!" in regards to Xander.

vampmogs | May 28, 15:31 CET

Dracula is not an evil bastard! He is misunderstood, though somewhat evil. He loves Xander! So cute.

Buffy the Slayer Layer | May 28, 16:03 CET

"a tight-nit group"? These vampires and their verminous infestations...

patolver | May 28, 16:13 CET

I also loved how sympathatic Buffy was to Xander, vampmogs!

Sosa Lola | May 28, 16:15 CET

Haha misunderstood! I must have misunderstood him when he threatened to slit Renee's throat! :)

And yeah sympathetic Buffy was great I knew you'd love that scene Sosa! Poor Xander, can't wait to see the rest of this issue to see what kind of effects this has on him. :(

vampmogs | May 28, 16:55 CET

Are we sure Renee is dead and not just passed out? I know the wound and blood loss look fairly fatal, but there is an outside hope that with the aid of a certain witch Renee may just survive

mgmn | May 28, 17:02 CET

She's dead, she's been obviously dead ever since we saw a 10 inch frakkin' stake get driven through her spine and heart at the beginning of the month, Jeanty *confirmed* she's dead, she's dead.

*walks off muttering about Ben and Glory*

*comes back*

Buffy's behavior in the preview is so wonderfully Buffy -- she's still fully in command but not divorced from her emotions (those things she told Kendra made her strong). And, yeah, Sarah would rock the snot out of that scene. This preview is why the comic medium is good for Buffy -- you couldn't do this sequence live action without a feature film budget. It reminds me of one of the (only) two or three good scenes in the first Fantastic Four movie, when Johnny decides to jump off the building and hope he figures out how to fly on the way down.

KingofCretins | May 28, 17:11 CET

Deep breaths ;).

zeitgeist | May 28, 17:14 CET

Wow, Renee's monologue got across the poignancy of her death in a way only this medium could have. Also, Willow's green magical lover chick. Whosat, anyway? Wonder how she plays into the overall arc.

Oh, and Drac!

Liam Mars | May 28, 17:30 CET

I really hope this doesn't lead to Xander going evil or vengeance-thirsty. Already been done in the Buffyverse and too women in fridges.

It's really interesting that Dracula is around, especially in light of snake lady's comment--"what's to come"--which is along the lines of what Drac said to Buffy in S05E01.

Buffy the Slayer Layer | May 28, 18:31 CET

Yeah I noticed the comparisons with the line as well Buffy the slayer Layer, I think you're onto something there.

Anyone else love the shots from Renee's point of view? You see in each panel everything gradually goes down, from the first panel showing Willow looking upwards, then revealing Kumiko launches at her, to Willow going through the window, and of course Xander getting closer in every panel. It's very disorienting and really captures what Renee must be feeling as she fades away.

Quite possibly the most creative panels in either Buffy Season Eight or Angel: After the Fall in my opinion.

vampmogs | May 28, 18:46 CET

The "Snake Lady" from issue #10 resembles the depiction of Hecatae from that other Dark Horse series Hellboy.

Which makes sense to me since Hecatae was the God, or pure demon, or extradimensional being, or other weird thing; whom Willow was always invoking in everything from love-spells to rat-untransformations (not saying it always worked).

I don't think this is coincidental, Willow's major development between the end of season 6 and the beginning of season 8 has been in learning to control the power she has, not gaining more of it.

Hecatae's words in #10 are relevant to this:

Are all my secrets laid bare now?
Have you found what you need?
Or shall I show you more?

Willow demonstrated in her battle with Amy that brains are what a real witch depends on, but is it possible to have too much knowledge? To be corrupted by it? Time will show.

The immediate situation is very tragic, Willow initially made contact with Hecatae (I'm just assuming it's Hecatae) because she was saving Kennedy's life (or playing God with Kennedy's life, same diff). Unfortunately for Renee it seems that Hecatae has returned to monopolize Willow's time for a very crucial few minutes (at the very least).

Alright, that's a lot of parentheses...and Renee's final thoughts are pain inducing, real pain, emotional pain; not that phony physical stuff I felt when I dislocated my knee.

[ edited by The Londinium Sun on 2008-05-28 15:54 ]

The Londinium Sun | May 28, 18:54 CET

If I'm not mistaken, the Snake Lady ( I really do need to learn how to spell her name) is showing New York burning--that's the Chrysler Building with her tail around it, I believe. I guess that's why they head to New York in the next issue.

Buffy the Slayer Layer | May 28, 19:08 CET

Dracula. "He's not alone." Rawr.

Awesome.

Nolan | May 28, 20:10 CET

Ya gotta have at least one vamp fighting for you, no? Dracula's working out very well as a character here. He has a generous dose of silliness, along with plenty of hyper-emotionalism, and self-dramatizing, mixed with some actual strength and also, he's evil.. He didn't really work for me in Buffy v. Dracula-, maybe it was the casting, but I love him here.

toast | May 28, 20:23 CET

This is the goo-ey center of sweetness! (I was going to go with awesomeness, but we seem to be using those up rather quickly. Wouldn't want another tragic "!" incident.)

korkster | May 28, 20:29 CET

toast, you can be co-president of the We Love Dracula club. Bug-eating is optional but highly encouraged.

Sunfire | May 28, 20:41 CET

No one messes with the great Master! ...bater...

SpikeBad | May 28, 21:25 CET

I, along with quite a few others, bitched up a storm in the aftermath of Renee's death last issue, but the emotional impact here comes at you like a freight train. All five pages shown here are immeasurably powerful. Who ever would've thought that the semi-lame Dracula from a semi-lame episode eight years ago would become one of the series' best minor characters? "He's not alone" (coupled with Georges' beautiful art; in fact, this ish looks to hold his best artwork on the series yet).

The genuine love and camaraderie expressed between the Scoobies in these pages is just completely moving. I am so in love with Joss and Drew right now.

If I'm getting tears from the motherfucking preview pages, I can't wait to get my hands on the actual issue. I don't want to be premature or anything, but this might be the best issue of S8 so far, and might make "Wolves at the Gate" the season's best arc.

UnpluggedCrazy | May 28, 23:10 CET

That's a deal, sunfire, but as long as it's optional, I'll have mine without the roaches, thanks. Too crunchy.

toast | May 28, 23:52 CET

Will try more reasoned response later, right now just enough time to be overly cute: Predictable with a capital DICTATOR.

Nah, not as funny as I'd planned its being

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2008-05-28 22:12 ]

DaddyCatALSO | May 29, 01:11 CET

DaddyCatALSO - if that's for me, regarding my post in the other thread then email me.

zeitgeist | May 29, 01:27 CET

Yeah, I'm very interested in New York burning. We haven't been there yet, have we?

And I guess we can start calling the "snake lady" Saga Vasuki now? I'm not sure if it was ever concretely mentioned or if it was something I just assumed ("All my secrets are laid bare now" - iss 10), but I figured she was more of a teacher than a lover. So Kumiko also must have learned from her... did everyone else pick up on that?

dingoes8 | May 29, 03:32 CET

zeitgeist; No, I was just accusing Joss of being a DICTAtor because of his preDICTAble story developments.

Which is the more expanded comment I meant; it distresses me to find one of the truest geniuses around to be so predictable in certain ways. Hope Satsuko is paying attention.

But I do appreciate that he's delving more into the mythology. Not just the powers of the scythe, but also, just what is Willow these days? Altho she probably still packs her own lunches but beyond that....

DaddyCatALSO | May 29, 04:23 CET

it distresses me to find one of the truest geniuses around to be so predictable in certain ways

Yeah, the only thing as predictable as teenage girls with super powers in JOss' work is that people die early and often (especially after they find the happy).

zeitgeist | May 29, 05:17 CET

If the serpent lady is indeed Hecate, then it's interesting to note several plants and herbs are sacred to the goddess, including "willow." This may explain why Hecate was sweet on Willow in issue #10. There's more intrigue, though. Hecate's serpent form has powerful associations. From wikipedia: 'The symbolism referred to the serpent's power of rebirth, to the labyrinth of knowledge through which Hecate could lead mankind, and to the flame of life itself: "The life-producing bosom of Hecate, that Living Flame which clothes itself in Matter to manifest Existence."' (emphasis-added)

Now why on Earth would Willow go on a walk-about, seeking secrets from a powerful goddess, one dangerous and older than the Olympians, one who's associated with of all things, rebirth?

Hmmm, let me think...

(Yeah, hope springs eternal).

Of course, it could just be that mystical death Kennedy suffered (... yawn...)

[ edited by quantumac on 2008-05-29 03:37 ]

quantumac | May 29, 06:33 CET

I thought Hecate was just the goddess of living things.. thought we would have heard the name Hecate rather then the other names they were throwing around in the preview. Not that it's really important I guess

alexa | May 29, 07:11 CET

In Buddhist and Hindu mythology Vasuki is a serpent god, one of the Naga Kings. Either Saga Vasuki is his sister, or in the Buffyverse she's female, not male. Or maybe s/he changes sex depending on the gender and sexuality of hir current student...

One of Vasuki's most famous exploits was helping the other gods create amrita, the Ambrosia of Immortality - although in doing so he also coughed up a deadly poison, which would have destroyed the world if Shiva had not swallowed it himself. So Vasuki is associated with both life and death.

Hecate was a Greek goddess, daughter of the titans, who was feared as Queen of Witchcraft who granted her worshippers power over the spirits - although she was also said to protect women in childbirth and travellers. Her sacred animal was the black dog, and her shrines were built at crossroads. She doesn't appear to have much in common with Vasuki.

stormwreath | May 29, 14:43 CET

IIIRC, the concept of a defined sex when dealing with Hindu gods can at times be fluid, different aspects of certain gods can change depending on circumstance and the story involved. Kali, I had learned is sometimes considered to be the female aspect of Shiva.

Also, I think that Saga might be a title, like "Sage".

bishopcruz | May 29, 18:33 CET

Well, the 'gods' of Hindu theology are often believed to actually be aspects of one God (alternately devas or gods/celestial beings), though I believe the extent to which they are considered separate or not is variable by individual offshoots. The individual aspects are murtis or images of that God manifesting specific traits.

zeitgeist | May 29, 18:39 CET

May 27 2008