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June 03 2008

(SPOILER) Dollverse reviews the script for the Dollhouse pilot. With some shiny new pictures to go with it!

(Note: I put spoilers here just for super spoiler-sensitive people; far as I can tell, this is a pretty spoiler-free review)

A great, honest-sounding review. The glowing stuff I always take with a pinch of salt as I haven't loved everything Joss has done myself (just most of it), but this seems nicely ballanced while still making me majorly excited.

January yet?

On another note, how long until the pilot leaks to us plebs now?
Good review! January seems so far away... but it also seems worth the wait!
I agree--it seems very well-balanced, not all fanit squeeing as it might have been, not too spoiler-filled, a nice glimpse at the strengths and weaknesses of the pilot.

I really hope that if the pilot leaks that I have the self-control not to watch it. I want to experience this the right way. Oh, January.
Is this a review of the script of the pilot or the filmed pilot?
Random reactions:
1) I don't think he's a God.
Blasphemer! :-) Obviously Kevin is another confused soul who has fallen under the mistaken idea that Joss=super-computing-robot or Joss=Close-Encounters-alien.

2) In another thread, someone commented on the resemblance of the Dollhouse to the Wolfram & Hart LA/Rome offices. I was thinking the 24 CTU center, but instead of dark-stone-metal, we have bright-wood-trees.

3) I had to look up "squick". Online, as it wasn't in my dictionary.
Seemed to be the script, which is why he said certain people "leaped off the page."
That first picture shown reminds me vaguely of the S5 Wolfram & Hart main lobby area. But I think that's just the open area feel and the color scheme.
It sounded like a script review, no? And what lovely pics.

I wanted to hate his character, as I hate myself and he's the closest thing I've seen to me on TV - but I couldn't.

Could Topher and Joss Whedon teach gossi to love himself? (It's the greatest love of all, I've heard tell).

This made me laugh and also reminded me uncomfortably of my old pattern with relationships:
Almost every character (outside of the Dolls) on display had moments which made me think 'Wow, they're dicks', closely followed by '...But I kind of love them'.

Yeahhh... been there.
Blasphemer! :-) Obviously Kevin is another confused soul who has fallen under the mistaken idea that Joss=super-computing-robot or Joss=Close-Encounters-alien.


Can't you tell that gossi considers Joss the final cylon.
I'm guessing a script review? He didn't make mention of the directing or acting, just dialog and character. gossi should let us know. If, say, the first 10 minutes aren't clear on the page, filming could fix that.

I too have issues with the concept that I have to work through. One thing I find heartening, though is that all of these characters seem deeply flawed, deeply human, yet still likable. And I don't mean likable in the sense of, "oh, isn't she so sweet to give puppies to the orphans?" I mean that despite the deep flaws, these sound like characters I will enjoy following. So many times I've argued with people about not liking unlikable characters: "oh, Dizzy, you silly person, you aren't supposed to like that character, he's evil/mean/a puppy-kicker." Which is nonsense. There's a difference between enjoing an evil character, and a poorly contructed character that you dislike because they're poorly constructed. So it makes me squee a bit to see these will be such complex characters. Yay for complex.

[ edited by Dizzy on 2008-06-03 17:14 ]
I always think it's a mark of good writing when everyone on the various sides of a conflict is sympathetic in some way.
Squick: Cordelia + Connor.
I'm about as excited as I can get for Dollhouse. But my excitement is tempered by the realization that most shows rarely reach their potential in the first episode or even the first season (Buffy and Angel included). I can see a number of negative reviews coming out after the first episode if it isn't the best thing since sliced bread. I just hope it'll last long enough to find its legs and become another great series whenever that may be.
Me too, swanjun. I just re-read the earlier parts of Astonishing X-Men this weekend, and Agent Brand is just so ruthless. Borderline evil, or even way over the line at times, and yet sympathetic. Same with Ord.

That isn't to say elements of his previous shows aren't present - I gasped towards the end of the episode a few times, for example

There is to be a sudden and expected death, perhaps? ;)

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-06-03 18:00 ]
Ha! Nice, concise definition, Dana5140. And I had my doubts about the concept initially too, Dizzy, but the more I hear / read and the more I think about it, the more it seems full of wonderful possibilities.

I'm interested in the sometimes-qualified excitement, the careful acknowledgment that yes, it's possible we might not love this, both in gossi's review and in some comments. Like there is this slight anxiety about just deciding it's going to be awesome because it's Joss. And of course that makes sense, but speaking entirely for myself (well, obviously) I really do feel "it's going to be awesome because it's Joss" and I think he's earned that confidence, from me at least. There are authors whose new book I will always buy, and I may not love it as much as my favorite book they've written but I know I'm not going to be disappointed. Even when I didn't like a particular story-line (my beloved occasionally threatens me with a Pylea marathon) I find Joss's shows so emotionally compelling. At the very least I'm sure it will be smart and character-driven and intense and witty and that the arcs will be well-thought out and carefully executed. Which is something I'll enjoy watching.

While I really enjoyed both Angel and Firefly (with Firefly it was like dating somebody really fun and hilarious and complicated and fascinating and then just as you're just starting to realize oh god I think I could fall in love with this person... they get hit by a truck) "Buffy" was the show I Loved and found myself rewatching every time I moved to a new / stressful environment (not that I go around moving into stressful environments all the time, that would be foolish, but I have moved a lot... to "interesting" environments that were stressful until I adapted. Case in point, Buffy was a complete security blanket during my first couple of rotations as the only woman on an off-shore oil rig in China's Bohai Bay). I don't think it's the "best" show I've ever seen, and yet in spite of various other enthusiasms nothing else on television or film has captured my heart like that. I don't expect to fall in love with Dollhouse to that extent (and in fact I hope I don't... I don't have time!) but I do feel safe being excited about it. And not only because it has Joss at the helm... added bonus: what a cast! I am particularly excited about Olivia Williams and her eyebrows, and Amy Acker and her mysterious scar. And while I never thought of Eliza as wildly versatile (though I'm happy to believe she might be) I do find her absolutely magnetic on screen. So to me it seems like a sure winner and I feel just fine deciding that in advance, la.

God I'm long-winded. Condensed version:
So excited about this! Buffy rulez, Eliza iz hot!

Thanks for the review gossi!
Ah, catherine, my sister in Olivia Williams love. :) I'd watch the show just for her.

I've loved most of what Joss has done, and have even wank'd the toad/lighting line in X-Men. For me, Buffy was my first love. But AtS? Never got into it much. I liked it OK, and certain aspects were plain awesome (like anything with Amy), but it was never the love Buffy was to me. Then with Firefly, I dumped Buffy. Firefly became my favorite show ever. It was flawed, yes, but I like some kinds of flaws, heh. Lately, though, I'm falling back in love with Buffy. It's like I'm leaving my second husband to go back to my first. I'm starting to think I love Buffy and Firefly about the same.

My reservations about Dollhouse aren't exactly logical. I don't expect to love it. I hope to, and fairly sure I might, but I do have reservations. The fact that the cast is strong and the characters seem complex excites me. But I'm waiting to see it before deciding if it'll be my third husband, so to speak. ;)
Hee hee. I'm a happy Whedon-show polygamist and Dollhouse is like my mail-order bride. I'll marry it based on a few pictures and a profile.
I think catherine wins the Quote of the Day Award. :)
Three things as I'm running out to door to go and meet a man about a dog:

- "Squick: Cordelia + Connor". Somebody put that in the dictionary.
- Script, pretty much.
- My favourite character in Heroes is Sylar.

My only real reservation, from a pure viewer who wants to be entertained point of view, is how we're supposed to relate to the Dolls, if they're more forgetful than me. I thought about this for a minute and decided that, well, if I don't care about them, I won't watch.
While not everything is for everyone, I think this script is going to make a lot of people happy. gossi's 8 rating is one I'd agree with.
Squick is my least favourite word in fandom.
I'd tell you my new favourite name, Caroline, but I'd have to kill you.
Miniature Schnauzer, gossi? I inherited one when I married my wife and he became my best buddy until he died from diabetes some months ago. I miss that lil' schnook.

On the whole, what intrigues me here is the overlying question: what makes a person human? I can see this question pervading the run of the show as Echo begins to recall things she should not. Someone asked about death in the first episode- but consider; once Echo is deactivated she will not remember any deaths, not ones she saw nor ones she caused. At least not to start. I see this program as potentially darker than Buffy, and darker than Angel, which though it never hooked me like Buffy did I always felt was a darker show with less trust in humanity.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-06-03 18:46 ]
Squick is my least favourite word in fandom.


Squee for me.
I dislike squick adn squee both.

I'd tell you my new favourite name, Caroline, but I'd have to kill you.


Hahah! *ahem*
I dislike most words I've discovered on the internet. Except for asshat, that's a keeper.
Squee is a very good second. :-)
Okay, gossi, when you said you didn't think the original Firefly pilot was very good, did you mean "Serenity" or "The Train Job"?

I'll agree with you on the latter, but if it was the former, well... ;-)
I don't like squick and I don't like squee neither - they induce The Willies Extraordinaire - but I am fond of squeegee, squawk and especially squiggle.

Oh, yeah, and squid and squeak and squeeze are good, but ewww to squamous and squall. And I'm not crazy about squirrel, either, but that's because they are evil and have no souls.

And I will never, ever be in my bunk.
Since we're talking scripts, did anyone read the "Kitchen Sink Draft" of Serenity that surfaced? I nabbed it, but haven't read it yet (I could tell you why, but then I'd have to kill you and gossi and no one wants that).

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2008-06-03 21:53 ]
Up with Dollhouse. Down with squirrels.
Whoa, kitchen sink script? I never thought we'd see this. How is this not bigger news?

I'm not getting any work done today anymore.
And I will never, ever be in my bunk.

It's where the squirrels hide. All those people making bunk jokes here? Squirrel informants.
Special breaking news note to anyone playing hide and seek with QG ;).

And I will never, ever be in my bunk.

Since we're talking scripts, did anyone read the "Kitchen Sink Draft" of Serenity that surfaced?

Yes. I'd detail my reactions but that would be pretty off-topic. If anything can by off-topic in a thread about squicks, squees, and squirrels.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-03 20:22 ]
Yes. I'd detail my reactions but that would be pretty off-topic.


You're right, that would seem totally out of place amongst all of the talk of tiny people and squirrels.

BEAT

Perhaps whedonesque.org would be a better place to discuss such things.
Yes, please. I just read it. Wow. Very different. VERY different. Need to talk. ZG, this going live on org?
Joss Whedon is just an avatar that one highly been takes in Earth.
This superior life form uses, also the shape of Luis Fernando Verissimo in Brazil and had already made some trips as Gene Roddenberry and Rod Serling.
Okay, off the topic of all sq- words, but on the topic of the review:
I think that this review is one of the more intelligent ones I've read, and I really liked it. I revere Joss to the nth degree, but I'm really glad that there are voices out in the universe that are attached to calm, rational persons who are waiting to see the finished product of Dollhouse before boiling over with excitement and pure, unadulterated joy. ...I'm at a low simmer, as it is, and I'm happy to stay there until January.

I loved the new shot of the Dollhouse, the one across the stairs. It kind of made me think of a Mariott, Sheraton, or similar upscale hotel--one of those with a really posh, warm-toned lobby and a huge atrium with lots and lots of plants. Very pretty and warm tones, looks inviting, but not like home which is in keeping with what I've seen of the set. Which is why it's awesome.

Now that I've been on-topic for a few paragraphs, I feel slightly safe with quick digression in the vein of words we don't like. Utilize. It just bugs me, because it's pretentious, but ultimately useless. That, and "reason why" because it's redundant. Sunfire, I too love "asshat."

Oh, and catherine and Dizzy, I'm with you on Olivia Williams love. The first thing I actually saw her in was Tara Road, which was based on Maeve Binchy's book. She was so, so, good. Check it out if you want a healthy dose of her (with an Irish accent, no less) before January.

ETA: BCM, what? Is this somehow related to Ben and Glory?

[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-06-03 21:51 ]
Why have I never been able to get onto whedonesque.org?

Is it private? Is there a joke I'm missing?

And this review: my appetite is wet. It's fraking drenched.
brynmars, you need to be logged in to see some areas. bix's link goes directly to such an area. Try the main site first. You'll need to set up an account there, too.

Except it seems to be down at the moment, so not yet!

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-06-03 21:55 ]
It was just a hiccup, its up.
Tantalizing review. I like that it's restrained and considered. That said, my feelings about this show-to-be are anything but restrained or considered. I'm a wild woman about it and I haven't seen more than the damn preview.

Like others, I detest "squee" and "squick." Dee-ee-test.
I thought whedonesque.org was a myth. It's not? Why visit it? Do I really have that sort of time to stalk 2 communities?

BTW, based on gossi's review, I'd still rate Dollhouse as a 9. I'm totally freaking asshat-ing!

Anyone? No? Oh, well, thought I'd try it. Need something to replace the "sq"'s in life. What about "wz"? As in this is totally WZard!

*smiles to self*
Um, korkster, I think you need to look up the word 'asshat' before you use it to describe yourself.
It's a bleak view that Joss puts forward. It's a cracking read and the best opener he's done to date and it would have played well in the last couple of years.

But come January, there will be a new President in the White House and a far more optimistic America. So I think the public will soon tire of downbeat dramas and look for more fun upbeat shows. Less Battlestar Galactica, more Chuck. I think Dollhouse will be hit by this change in the public's mood.

Also killing off Eliza's character in the first ten minutes was a bit unnecessary.*

*This bit is made up.

[ edited by Simon on 2008-06-03 23:17 ]
We haven't elected a new economy or atmosphere, so I think we'll still be in the mood for this, myself. Unless we want happy distractions, which we do also like.
Well, cabri, that's what I get for not checking my trusted sources of information (i.e., whedonesque.com). But, if you think about it, asshat may be the best description of my occupation on this thread:


asshat
noun
(cattag2, Internet, slang): asshole.
Etymology: From the slang expression "Having one's head up one's ass," thus, wearing the ass as a hat. The term is extended to people who are clueless or bumbling, who don't understand what is going on.


Simon, I thought this thread was supposed to be mild-spoilers. Echo dieing would be above average, in my book.

And I hope you're not right about the optimism we're going to be facing. From where I sit on my American-plush ass, things will be bleak for a few more years. Just because a new President zard's optimism, doesn't mean it comes overnight.

*looks out expectantly to see if gas has gone down*

*gas is now $5.00 (for the cheap crap)*

*no more website hits for jobs; most companies are moving off-shore*

Yeah, we have a ways to go. I am rather looking forward to curling up to some bleakness with Joss.
"asshat" hee! My mom of all people used to use it all the time. I used it a couple of times way back on the Serenity Universal board. Haven't used it much since. Glad to be reminded of it, as it's an awesome word.

I'm OK with squick and squee, and use both pretty frequently. Confusing lose and loose bugs more than any 'net speak. I like squirrel, especially when he is with moose.

And Simon, you're more optimistic about the potential optimism of Future America than this American. McCain has a good chance of winning, and thus continuing the war and Bush's policies. Vietnam lasted almost 20 years, and America was clinically depressed for most of those years. I could see the current war going on just as long. So let's think positively, things might stay crappy!
Echo dieing would be above average, in my book.


That was a wee fib by me. Or what we call a foiler.

Just because a new President zard's optimism, doesn't mean it comes overnight.


Personally I think we're going to see "It's Morning in America 2" come January and this will affect the entertainment industry. But it will be a case of wait and see.
I think that there will still be an audience for this. The 'morning in America' effect will take longer than that to happen... either that or people will be unreasonably expectant about change not coming fast enough (not caring that the new president isn't in office) and will become disillusioned and love Dollhouse. I kid, but I really do think that there is an audience for it, even after they killed that Tara character in the first-- oh, wait, Simon already foiled about Echo being offed. I'll hush now.
They killed Tara? Those bastards!

:-)
What's this "It's Morning in America" thing? I've never heard of it? Am I too young? Too Texan turned New Yorker turned San Diegan? Still living in a cave with my shrine of Joss?

From this point of view, Americans know/slightly believe that change will happen. But they expect to be let down by their newly-elected candidate. That's the way of politics here. You're gives IOU's for promises made that are never able to be exchanged.

An example of this "expected let-down" can be seen in some fake commercials of movie-sponsered products. One of my favs is the Jackie Moon comercials for Old Spice deoderant. Skip to 3:31 and read the small font on when the product expires. Sorry, it just makes me laugh. And I really wanted an arm-pit-hair-comb too.
Oh, and I don't mind the foiler. Just wait until Joss proves you right. Now that would be a shocker! Kill off the main character 10 minutes into the series. Woot!
Well, if he proves the foiler right, then the script that we read was a foiler :)
korkster: "I'm totally freaking asshat-ing!"

This is my new adopted phrase. It's not only my phrase-of-the-day, but I'll be using it again and again and again for weeks until you're all tired of it or Dollhouse airs, whichever comes first. Thanks, korkster, you're my new asshat friend! ; >

I think it beautifully describes being such an enthusiastic fan that one is all rabid-y and convert-y and you know... asshat-y.

It's funny because it's true.

But I also love it because it's just so wrong.
the public will soon tire of downbeat dramas and look for more fun upbeat shows

But I thought comedies and lighthearted fare were more popular in dark times.

Maybe come January the world will be full of joy and peace and laughter, and we'll all be relying on TV to get our depression on.

Or maybe I'm asshatting.
Okay, does the phrase asshat friend scare anyone else just a little? Just me then. First time I ever read the word was on the Very Secret Diaries of the LOTR Characters online. Sauron talked about whether The Nine could sort their elbows from their asshats.

Dizzy, I hated it, but I was slightly nodding along with your assessment of the current situation in America. I hate seeing the McCain name sully the beautiful black here, but I have lost faith in American voters.
...Which is especially bad, seeing as this is the first time I'm going to be old enough to vote in a presidential election. All I could do in 2004 was campaign and complain.

As for peoples' desires in the way of darker versus lighter material, I think that there will always be people who are more drawn to the fluffy, light dramas such as *cringe* The Hills. Those people deserve what they get.
Conversely, there will always be people who are more fans of the darker, more thoughtful dramas on TV. There is always, IMO, a niche for that on TV, regardless of where America is on one of its manic depressive up/downswings.

Plus there will always be fans of witty, intelligent writing, hot guys/girls doing awesome things, and fan-bloody-tastic eyebrows. Those are the people who dwell/lurk here. :)

Slightly off-topic: did anyone read about Susan Sarandon's planning to be an ex-pat if the dark side wins/steals the presidency? I wish I had the cash to do that; then I could find an asshat friend in Great Britain!
I'm OK with squick and squee, and use both pretty frequently.

Squick is useful only to the extent that the people hearing or reading the word know what it actually means.

Squee annoys me to no end, but that's par for the course for someone who is annoyed by certain aspects of fandom and/or online behavior.
Huh. I got that email from "Adelle" 11 days ago and just now noticed it. It was in my gmail spam, which I never think to check because it's normally entirely empty.
I got that email from "Adelle" 11 days ago and just now noticed it.

Just in time for everyone to have let out a big yawn and forgotten all about all of that.
Yeah, this here viral media experience is a slowish train.
Yeah, this here viral media experience is a slowish train.

I'm busily waiting on this year's Lost game instead.
BandofBuggered: I am so very with you on the "utilize" loathing, and well as the Olivia love. (general Olivia love, but in particular, the way she says "zombie slaves" just slays me. Also her eyebrows.)

And, gratutiously, I just wanted to say, out of nowhere whatsoever, that I also hate it when the word "impact" is used as a verb. Just saying.
I also hate it when the word "impact" is used as a verb.

It's a legitimate usage, however.
On the whole, this almost makes me want to price small TVs and ask the guy I sub-rent my room from about the cable. Of course I'd need to get a recording device as well......

Seems a bit too unlimited a 'verse to inspire much good fanfic; art requires boundaries.

Dizzy; We could elect William Faulkner's corpse and the next administration will be more hopeful. Heck, Joss would be less bleak-inducing. This ain't choosing parliamentary delegations amongst Italian parties is what I'm sayin'.

Dana5140; Sorry about your step-dog.

Simon Caroline zeitgeist ; How do you feel about "I got cooties"?

QuoterGal: "Simple Squamous says do this!"
Yeah, toast, that can really impact affect effect mess with people's grasp of how to correctly use the English language. As an education major, I absolutely abhor the use of the word "conference" as a verb. As in "the principal is going to conference with Buffy's mom about her misbehavior in school." Blerg.

As for Olivia Williams, I like the "zombie slaves" line, but I really, really, love the "this is spectacularly unacceptable" part. Pure gold.

b!x and Sunfire, have you determined whether this was just fan-created asshattery or if it was an actual Fox thing? Just a mite curious.

ETA: DaddyCat, check Craigslist for decent, cheap TVs, at least in the US. I don't know if anywhere else does Craigslist. And there's always the option of illegal spliceage of cable...but I didn't say that.

[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-06-04 01:30 ]
b!x and Sunfire, have you determined whether this was just fan-created asshattery or if it was an actual Fox thing? Just a mite curious.

Nope.

ETA: But it's interesting that not long after, the FOX blog posted to say "don't always assume that what we post here is ours". (And then they mixed it up by of course adding not to assume it isn't, either.)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-04 01:44 ]
korkster, that is absolutely the cleanest definition of 'asshat' I've ever seen. No wonder you don't feel so bad about using it! However, just to clear things up before you use it too much, here is the definition that is far more familiar to most people on the interwebs:

ass-hat
1. One whose head is so far up their rear end it could pass for a hat; used to describe a person who is stubborn, cruel, or otherwise unpleasant to be around.
2. A general term for someone who carries out actions with such stupidity that they might as well wear their ass as a hat.

I sincerely hope no one here has an 'asshat' friend!
korkster: "I'm totally freaking asshat-ing!"

This is my new adopted phrase. It's not only my phrase-of-the-day, but I'll be using it again and again and again for weeks until you're all tired of it or Dollhouse airs, whichever comes first. Thanks, korkster, you're my new asshat friend! ; >

I think it beautifully describes being such an enthusiastic fan that one is all rabid-y and convert-y and you know... asshat-y.

It's funny because it's true.

But I also love it because it's just so wrong.
QuoterGal


You're quite welcome, QuoterGal. It's one of those moments when you don't realize the beauty of it until someone else smiles. :)

Yeah, I noticed that too, bix. It's almost as though Fox wished it were theirs, and will make no correction towards the fact since it does them good business. In the end, however, I still am looking for Kimi and checking out Nate's blog. I guess I had more room for addiction than I thought.
And yet, cabri, I still see how that definition can claim me. #2 more than #1 probably, but I guess it just depends on the day (and if we're talking about ships or not).

An example: It took me quite a while to figure out what "ships" Whedonesquers were talking about. I mean, sure, Firefly has a spaceship, but how can you compare that to Buffy or Angel?

When the light bulb went on, I was rather embarrassed and decided to keep that fun fact to myself... until today, when I saw how I could use it to prove a point. Hm.

Plus, I like how QuoterGal describes ass-hat to the Whedon world. Seems like it could be applied anywhere in fandom.
What's this "It's Morning in America" thing? I've never heard of it? Am I too young?


It's a Reagan thing.
Reagan had a thing? Did he remember...? (I'll stop now.)

The word that irritates me the most is "orientate". It's just redundantly wrong. And then there's "scrungie", but I think that might have been something I made up to bug my little sister. (Worked-and still works-like a charm.:D)

Ooo... gas prices. We are now paying roughly $10 a gallon in Vikingland and we pump the stuff. Course the price depends a bit on the exchange rate.

On topic. I always thought that if any character wasn't flawed in some way, they weren't interesting, nor life-like. Dollhouse will be very intersting.

ETA: Edited because jpr reminded me that my math was fuzzy. Thanks. Studying for a Spanish exam has not done wonders for my math skills.

[ edited by MysticSlug on 2008-06-04 09:56 ]
While I'm finding all these script reviews interesting to read, and of course it's nice to get one from gossi, I'm being a bit sceptical of the ability to review a TV show based on just its script, because everything else (direction, acting, photography, general style of the show) adds so much. OK, so if the script is bad it's difficult for the rest to pull it up to anything more than average, but if the script is *good* then everything else can either push it down to average, or pull it up to frickin awesome.

But then I don't know what I'm worrying about. Joss is one of my favourite directors, as well as writers. And the cast looks to be amazing (even if you remove the Olivia Williams, who I think single-handedly pushes the cast list up to phenomenal).
MysticSlug, don't you mean 20 NKr/litre ? We have not reached the $20/litre in Scandinavia, yet. It might come but not yet.

I'm going to follow Carolines example and wait to see the actual show, then I'll be using all these inappriopriate words as appropriate :)
I know, onetruebix, "legitimate" usage occurs when enough people use a word for long enough, language is not static, etc. I have no problem with that in general- what would be the point? But I dislike these particular words- including "conferencing", too, mostly because they are, or resemble a kind of employer-speak, which used to mask unpleasant content, or content-free speech with a particular sort of pompous jargon. (Not limited to employers).

Sometimes this usage ruins perfectly good words for me. Under one regime especially fond of this sort of thing (I work for the state), the perfectly good word "empowered" was besmirched for me forever. We noticed that the word "screwed" could be consistently substituted for it any offical statement, to add clarity.

[ edited by toast on 2008-06-04 10:55 ]
It's verbing a noun, which I just did! :-)
By legitimate I mean it's a proper dictionary-defined usage of the word, not just something these newfangled kids are doing.
It's funny, reading about how improper usage of words doesn't tickle our funny bones, and yet we like Joss-speak. Huh.
Yeah, I understand, Bix, and you are right. None of the words and uses I am talking about are particularly new-fangled, even. I enjoy new-fangled words and use of words when clever. I just don't like these, because they sound dopey and pretentious to me, compared to other, more straightforward ways of saying the same things. Also, I associate them with evasion.

Can't claim this is anything other than my personal taste, though.

[ edited by toast on 2008-06-04 22:38 ]
I like Joss-speak because he obviously knows how to use the words, then changes them around to make them his own. He is cognizant of how he's altering the words/language, and he does so skillfully. And it ends up in things like "it's pointless"/"it's entirely pointy!"

Things like "orientate" or "conferencing" are often just examples of ignorance or apathy (let's be too lazy to re-discuss that) toward proper usage.
And what toast said about those words, and others like "utilize," being dopey and pretentious.

I love playing around with language the way Joss does; I did it before I watched anything of his. OTOH, my younger brother is always telling me to watch my language--not my swears, mind you (though I use those in abundance), but big words such as vicarious or perspicacity. Damn the fact that my SAT studies haven't yet left my brain!
Since this post is about to drop off, I'll leave topic completely.

My father,an undertaker, used to describe those little folded paper things that have the name and dates of the deceased and the specifics about the funeral on one page and the 23rd Psalm facing it "memorian cards." I just figured it was professional jargon but it drove my mother crazy whenever he said it.

Oh well, when my daughter was about two she used to call nylon ponytail holders "hairlons" and I picked it up from her and used it a couple years before my wife finally noticed and corrected me.

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2008-06-05 00:43 ]

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