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"Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
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June 06 2008

(SPOILER) Buffy 8.18 and Wolves at the Gate TPB's solicitation and covers. Comics Continuum has the description and the images for September's issue of Season 8 up. Once again, Jo Chen outdoes herself.. and this Dawn comes from the leftest of fields:-)

Also, the third collection from Season 8 comes out in just three months.

Love the Buffy/Fray cover. Buffy can't even drive a regular car - how the heck will they survive in a flying car? :)
Whoa! Wait a minute! That's... Dawn? With 4 legs??

Wow. Didn't recognize her.

Buffy behind any wheel is never a good scenario. I guess Fray will hold off th pummel until they're safely on the ground. ;)
Is Dawn really turning into a centaur? Holy jump the shark moment!!!
Someway, I'm more inclined to wonder how Dawn turned into a.. hybrid. Remember how we were all discussing whether Dawn was pregnant or simply blowing up ? Well, Joss, as usual, takes us by surprise. I really love both covers, so different and so complemental.
I, uh. What?
The villain from Buffy's past is quite definitely Drusilla. I mean, look at the Variant to #17.
Yeah, it's our favourite lunatic. And if it turns out she's Icarus' sire, so being Harth's grandsire, it would be a nice touch. It would bring all the vampiric line of Buffy's villans back to Angelus, Darla, and ultimately the Master.

Did I say I already love Centaur Dawn ? We could have a whole line of action figures based on Dawn's transformations.
I do not love Centaur Dawn. Beautiful women + horses legs might be one of the scariest things ever. I didn't even recognize her at first. I thought: "Hmm, she's cute" and then "AAAH, she... IT has horses legs!!!" I have a very irrational hate against horses =)
Four legs bad.

Also enough with the product placement!
The real question is...

Centaur Dawn or GIANT Centaur Dawn?
Oh, please no! There aren't any hyperboles to describe the agony of that! A GIANT WOMAN HORSE! Oh and before anyone else says it GIANT HORSE MECHA DAWN!

[ edited by Pretty_Hate_Machine on 2008-06-05 21:57 ]
Beat me to it Lady Brick! That was my first thought.
To quote Malcolm Reynolds in one of his better moments, huh.
I think Giant Centaur Dawn would be in serious peril with that torso, so I'm hoping she's a Dawn-sized centaur.

The Buffyverse is getting weird. Er.
Not only are Buffy and cars "unmixy things" but she hates heights/flying. Now the two are combined. Love how they captured her sheer look of terror. But since it's Buffy, she'll face down her fears to get the job done - even if it's driving a flying car. Her driving must be pretty bad since Fray also looks terrified.
One of the inconsistencies in Buffy's characterization. At first glance, Buffy is a low-tech heroine - not good with: computers, cars, guns, etc. But really good with rocket launchers. How do you explain that?
As I've come to expect from Ms. Chen, it's a great cover, but... uhh... wow. Didn't see that coming. Of course, I'm talking about the flying car, not the centaur. I mean, I totally saw the centaur coming from the second I read about the thricewise. Obvious, innit?
Ummm, the dawn cover is great (love Jo Chen) but the spoiler just made me instantly think "fanfic" instead of canon buffy... Although, I guess the Fray arc screams something other than canon too.
Wow. Dawn's expression. She's really digging being a centaur. She looks damn... sassy.
I hope I don't get thrown out of church for much preferring Jo Chen's paintings to Alex Ross's...
I believe I speak for all of us when I say "huh?"

This just came right to mind (and poor Dawn is still stuck in a barn with this mojo!:/)
Is it just me, or is anyone else kind of looking forward to a gimmick-free arc? No Satsu, no Dracula, no mecha, no Fray, no centaurs, no Drusilla, no flying cars or time travel? How about something that pauses and deals where the characters are right now in more than a one-shot manner?
That's Dawn? A centaur? I was right, I am not a comic book person.


One of the inconsistencies in Buffy's characterization. At first glance, Buffy is a low-tech heroine - not good with: computers, cars, guns, etc. But really good with rocket launchers. How do you explain that?

stevekaw | June 05, 22:25 CET


She only shot it once and Xander taught her how it worked. I don't really see an inconsistency.

ETA: swanjun, me! Me! I would! I have sworn I will not buy the individual issues anymore, but I may buy the TPB at some point. I would love to see some real character and story.

[ edited by newcj on 2008-06-05 23:29 ]
Can anyone smart somehow decipher a way in which Dawn being a centaur is merely a cover-ey metaphor....for change or something? Do centaurs have some inherent symbolic meaning?

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS JOSS SOMEONE MUST FIND A WAY THAT THIS IS A METAPHOR!
I'm not sure how I feel about Centaur Dawn. The poor girl...sheesh. Also, I would like a return to some "normalcy." I've been loving the comics, but, it would be nice to see at least one issue that could conceivably be made into TV with a TV budget.
swanjun: Here here! And... nicely put.
What's the point of reading the comics hoping they'll turn into a TV series? It's not going to happen, folks. This is all we have. Why not just run with it and show how awesome Buffy can be, was meant to be?

The Centaur Dawn is strange, but, hey, what about a man and a woman sharing the same body? Now that's unusual. I don't think I could believe such a corny script. And all that brain-sucking? Wow. Totally unbelieveable.

Buffy never had a "normal" life. She's been complaining about it for the past 7 seasons. I actually find it quite refreshing that no matter how "weird" things get in Season 8, she's taking it in stride, not pushing away her friends, and stepping up to the plate and dealing with it. That's pure wzardness (I'm cutting back on awesome).
Oh, when did Fray become a gimmick? Joss wrote the story, and tied the 2 events together by giving Buffy the scythe in Season 7. I think it's not only a good idea to put the whole "canon" issue to rest, but why not some time-travel?

Willow was capable of bending people to her will, splitting up the present into 2 sequences of the same timeline, and teleporting. That's definately a recipe for Back to the Future.

ETA: Remembered how to spell "scythe". Of course, I could still be spelling it wrong. And this ETA would prove my asshattness.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-06-05 23:48 ]
I think Joss will tell himself and/or the press that he's doing this in the name of Monsieur Metaphor, but c'mon, there's crack and then there's CRACK...

I'm pumped about Drusilla showing up, though. She should work wonders at Harth's side. I just hope they don't kill her off or redeem her.
I'm pretty much in the same boat has everyone else with the Dawn being a giant-sized-mecha-centaur-who loves being one, scenario. I'm hoping it's not what we think it is, but I'm also not going to stop reading Buffy over it.

I'm excited about the Fray arc. I enjoyed the Fray mini-series and look forward to this one. I think we'll probably learn more about Twilight in this one as well.

Plus Dru FTW. Nothin' hotter than a crazy evil female vampire.
Sticking with my theory that the fact that Dawn used to be a Big Ball of energy for dimensional manipulations only like, 5 or 6 years ago (on Buffy time), starting to catch up with her.

Is it just me, or is anyone else kind of looking forward to a gimmick-free arc? No Satsu, no Dracula, no mecha, no Fray, no centaurs, no Drusilla, no flying cars or time travel? How about something that pauses and deals where the characters are right now in more than a one-shot manner?
swanjun | June 05, 23:21 CET


I expect that the issues written by Jane, Doug, Jeph, Jim Krueger (who did I forget?), to do something like that, before the big bang finales from Brad Meltzer and Joss.
I assume with this Snakelady/Willowlady bruhaha a'(witches)brewin', there'll be a Willow arc to look forward to. And to that I say, please let Jane Espenson be her voice.
Took me a moment to realize that was Dawn. That's quite a spoiler. I shouldn't open the spoiler ones. But sometimes I do anyway. Because I'm stupid.

Dawn turning into a centaur makes complete sense though (within the story, duh). She cheated on a thricewise. A THRICEwise. Ofcourse he won't just turn her into one thing. His spells obviously are three-parters. She'll turn into one more thing after this.

korkster:
Asshatness is probably spelled with one T;) Asshattery has two T's though.
I guess Dawn ain't pregnent.This is actually worse.lol

Yeah,I'm pretty sure it's Dru who is temaed with Harth.
My imediate 3 thoughts on the Dawn sitch:
1) Um
2) Raise your hand if ew
3) Damit, I realy have to stop spoiling myself

Aside from that, beautiful artwork. And im saying yes please to a metahpor. And yes please to some gosh darn character focused issues. It could be like Buffy: The Dawsons Creek Arc - all drama, all the time. And then,when everyones all exposed and vunerable and healing, boom! action, vampires, demons, butterflies with flame throwers, fighting etc....which somehow strengthens the love and resolve and fuzzy-wuzzys they were starting to build again. Everyone wins. Except for the sadists, but they never win.
korkster:
Asshatness is probably spelled with one T;) Asshattery has two T's though.
GreatMuppetyOdin | June 06, 02:00 CET


asshatTness is my poetic license to further emphasize my point.

Although you bring up a good point, GreatMuppetyOdin. I hadn't thought that she'd be turned 3 times. :) I wonder how long the Centaur-phase will last. Is it like a ticking time-bomb? Cuz that could be fun.
One of the inconsistencies in Buffy's characterization. At first glance, Buffy is a low-tech heroine - not good with: computers, cars, guns, etc. But really good with rocket launchers. How do you explain that?

stevekaw | June 05, 22:25 CET

newcj:
She only shot it once and Xander taught her how it worked. I don't really see an inconsistency.


Of course, Buffy also tried to assassinate Principal Wood with the rocket launcher, as well. Interesting choice for her...

[ edited by stevekaw on 2008-06-06 02:58 ]

[ edited by stevekaw on 2008-06-06 02:59 ]

[ edited by stevekaw on 2008-06-06 02:59 ]

[ edited by stevekaw on 2008-06-06 03:00 ]
When was Buffy not good with guns? I know she doesn't approve of them, but that doesn't mean she lacks the talent. I think technology-wise, Buffy's got it in for weapons, but that other stuff floats out of her reach.
GreatMuppetyOdin after reading your comments it kind of makes sense, with the THRICEwise and all. I just wish it took less time. I really want to see Dawn kick some butt as a normal (sized) character. Her characterization in the last issue was excellent, I just want to see some of that same attitude and helpfulness as a normal girl helping out the slayers.

Personally I think maybe they don't know what to do with Dawn. (I believe) Joss mentioned awwwwhile back that Dawn was supposed to have died at the end of S5, but they wanted to make the 100th episode more dramatic so they killed Buffy instead. Maybe they just don't know what to do with the character, even in comic books. *sigh* I just want something good to happen to her, is that so wrong?
But Korkster, definitely is definitely spelled definitely and not definately. :-) As long as we are talking abut spelling.

As for Jane Espenson, I believe she is doing just a one-off, not an epic or 4-issue arc. As for Centaur Dawn, well, I agree with newcj; I'd love to see some focus on the characters we love, without all this frippery. And I hate to say this, but this comic is not how awesome Buffy can be. It's just a comic, without anywhere near the resonance of the TV show. Just because it is all that there is, is no reason to think that it is more than it is. Or something like that. :-)
I dunno, TOASTERslayer. What with the "730" reference at the end of S3, and the "that clock's wrong" at the end of S4, I think Buffy's death was planned way in advance.
And again, the dissing of comics. Yes, it's just a comic, like a TV show is just a TV show like a movie is just a movie and they all will never have the resonance of real life. Has there been no focus on the characters ? Really ? No reflections of Buffy's solitude, power issues, and existentialism ? No dwelling on Willow's ambivalent view of her relationship with Buffy and fear of loving again because they could be taken from her again ? No likely future focus on Xander's grief and possible darkening as a character ? No dissection of Faith's consideration of herself ? Was there no frippery in the TV show ? Yeah, no episode where Xander turns into a hyena, no episode where magical beer turns Buffy into a cavewoman, no episode where a trinket gets everybody to sing, and no episode where a hornyfying jacket makes Buffy jump a kid. So now Centaur Dawn is jumping the shark. Maybe on this basis, the show jumped the shark with Syd the puppet, then.
I agree with perseo, I guess Angel jumped the shark when that burger talked to Wesley.
Sorry Perseo, I can see where you are coming from, but I gotta side with those going 'huh?'

I jumped ship a few issues back, and by the things I am hearing about what has happened since...I'm glad I did. This just confirms it.
THIS HAD BETTER BE A METAPHOR! THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY RIGHT NOW!!!
I will seriously lose my faith in Joss if he decides to turn Dawn into a Cenitour. This will probably stop me from reading season 8! Thats how bad I feel about the decision. If you cant think of anything, KILL HER!!! It will just add to the dramatic impact that the other deaths of the series have bought about! OMG, right now I'm just trying to think of possible metaphors for this! Maybe that Dawn is a cenitour on the cover is just an extravagent way of saying change, in Joss' head?!?!? PLEASE I HOPE SO!!!!
I love this fandom's undying custom to jump the gun and judge before reading/seeing. You don't know where the centaur thing is going, yet you're implying Joss has run out of ideas. Joss Whedon we're talking about. Whimsical has always been a huge part of BtVS, the comic is just amplifying the possibilities for it. If it's not your thing, then you shouldn't even like the premise of Buffy at all, since a petite girl staking vampires with sticks of wood isn't exactly the most serious of ideas. I firmly stand by the idea that nothing in this comic is there just for the sake of filling pages, but hey, I might be wrong. It's just that going "huh ?" towards every. single. thing. somebody who's been keeping us entertained for the last 11 years creates and writes seems a bit.. excessive and grating lately ?
Yes, it is a metaphor! I know it now! At some point Centaur Dawn will enter a jumping contest for horses and she will have to jump over a certain water creature with huge jaws! Or we can just call it 'Centauring' instead of 'Jumping the shark'. Well whatever we'll see how this turns out even if it's ridiculous, it'll probably turn out fine in the end.
OK Perseo, that's fine. But what if a person genuinely doesnt like it. Just because it's Joss doesn't mean we have to like it unconditionally. That's grating to be told that again and again too.

I gave the comic a year. A whole year. I tried to like it but I didn't. So I don't read it anymore. I keep up with the latest news, and if I hear something that appeals to me I may jump in again at some point. But hearing that a giant robot Dawn fights a Giant Dawn on the streets of Tokyo, and that Dawn seemingly turns into a Centaur...pardon me if those ideas do not appeal to me and make me not want to read anymore.
It's unusual for a Buffy season to divide the fans. But I will say this, I've seen a lot of enthuastic newcomers to the fandom loving season 8. Alternatively I've seen a lot of the old timers going "eh" at what's happening.

With my fan hat on I'm liking what I read. And with my admin hat on posters here can say whatever they like about season 8 as long as it's not hateful, rude, obnoxious, puts other people down and full of I am right and everyone else is wrong comments*. The important thing to remember about fandom is not to take it that seriously.

Also you don't have to use capslock to make your point. And it would be preferable if you didn't.

Though I am disappointed that no one has used the flogging a dead horse metaphor.

And how difficult is it to use a rocket launcher?

*Cause we got enough of those when the show was on the air. Not looking forward to seeing it happen for Dollhouse but as sure as eggs are eggs, it'll happen.
I like that the license plate on the car Fray and Buffy are in reads "Starfury". Nice touch!
Of course it's okay if you don't like it, angeliclestat, and you have the right to say it. I'm a complete Joss apologist and proud of it, on the other hand, but I whole-heartedly support even the harshest of discussion WHEN it says something new. If comments and comments pile up repeating the same "ugh", "I don't get it", "I don't recognize Buffy anymore", it gets old, especially because if people aren't enjoying the comic anymore, why are they still buying it and commenting on the comic threads ? (not your case, obv.) What's getting repetitive is people dissing before they know what they're talking about. They're talking about Joss' alleged creative drought for ONE cover. And mind you, before Season 8, fans were ranting en masse about Dawn's non-use. Now that something (and the great thing is that we don't know what's exactly happening to her yet) is moving with her character, Dawn is OOC. Seems to me Joss can never win.

Simon, I think Season Six still owns the most divisive season title. And nobody's using that metaphor because Dawn is a clearly alive and kicking horse. *hi hi* kicking. I predict the fan controversy over Dollhouse will be the new standard to take into account when it comes to fan wars. I can see a lot of Joss fans jumping boat when it airs, let's hope even more come on board.
See, I'm not concerned at all by this. Also, it seems that the whole Butsu thing has everyone still flaking a bit about it but have we all not come to see this as something quite logical character wise. It was also handled well and I wouldn't call it a stunt. I don't want to get into yet another debate about this but I just thought I'd point that out.

Plus, the last arc has been less gimmicky and more meditative/character based. Sure, we still get mecha-Dawn but it's a comic book. I'm really forgiving of that 'cause it made me laugh. The wolving out and magic that has featured had all present in the show, so why complain about it now?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next issues. Jo Chen's artwork is gorgeous and astonishing. You know you've found true artists (I'm talking Joss down; all involved in the comic) when they cause such outrage.
A quick update. If anyone wants to see the covers HQ, Comicbookresources has them up in the Dark Horse solicit top right corner.
Metaphor...Metaphor...where is the Metaphor?

Dawn was a giant because it represented "growing up too fast" and the first fifteen issues have shown her progress to "comfortable in her skin."

Dawn becoming a centaur? In just a few minutes of internetting, I have discovered two things, centaurs (as Greek Mythology understands them) are almost exclusively male, and all the myths they feature in seem to have something to do with sex.

My hypothesis is that Dawn becoming a centaur is a twofold metaphor.

(1) Dawn mistrusts her own sexuality [as seen in issue #10], and this transformation may reflect that.

(2) In featuring a female centaur, or Centauride (thanks wikipedia), Joss has clearly given a male role (and a fairly iconic one at that) to a woman. So relax, it's all still about feminisim, it's all still about life.
I would buy this comic even if it had page after page of the characters dressed Evil Knievil style, jumping over entire pools of sharks.

But I do understand the alienation that some of you are feeling. Part of the reason so many people identified with Buffy on TV in the first place was because, even with the vampires and demons, there were aspects of the story that could be related to.
Some people aren't finding Season Eight's comic form with centaurs, giants and time travel to be striking a chord. Others have come to the fandom BECAUSE of those.

Me? I'm gonna keep reading because, like Spike, I want to know how it ends.

But that cover HAS tempted me to buy shares in Mitsubishi. (And on a completely different note- can you imagine what gas prices will be like in 200 years, presuming there actually IS any left? Eeek!)
Look- here is one thing I don't like about Dawntaur; it's an easy solution to Dawngiant. For 15 issues we've had giant dawn, and outside of this fight she really has not brought much to the story imo. A good explanation of this, beyond repeating the word thricewise, might be nice. This change removes that part of the story without having to address it. Now Dawn can continue to morph into whatever, perhaps even whatever the story needs. I say this in advance of knowing what that story is, of course, but certainly I do not find this comic anywhere near as appealing as the TV show. If the TV show was, in my estimation, perfection and the best TV show ever put on TV, this comic isn't even the best comic out there, not by a long shot and in comparison to the TV show, and it's rating of 100, so to say, I'd give the comic about a 40.

But, perseo, the whole point of speculation is to offer your thoughts before you know what has happened; it is about offering up what you think it may mean. And as much as it is tiring to you to suffer those of us doing that, it is also tiring to continually be told we should not do so until or after something has been read. Posting a cover picture gives food for speculation, and that is why these get posted on this board.

And in answer to your question, I'd argue, no, there really has been very little focus on the characters. There can't be, not when you have 22 pages per issue to tell a story and advance a plot, focus on 6 different major characters, etc. Everything is reduced and coded. Seeing Renee get killed and Xander get a page of revenge is not the same as understanding what this means for his "future darkening" because, well, the future is not here yet. A couple of pages of talk between Buffy and Willow containing maybe 50 words or so hardly constitutes what you suggest. But, you know, I'm older and though I've read comics all my life, I have never found them as compelling as a good TV show or movie. So admittedly it is my own bias here, but still, this is not how I would have continued the 'verse if it were up to me, which it is not.
I've been thinking a bit about this lack of character focus, maybe a change of format for a few months might be interesting (considering sending the suggestion for Dark Horse) to the book. Using the called back up stories, in which each issue get split into 16 pages of main story and the other 6 for the back story.
DC's weekly 52 series used the format to a certain extent, and Marvel also resorted to a somewhat similar solution for that "Endangered Species" storylines.
Something in the line of what IDW is doing with "First Night" is also quite interesting on the matter of Character focus, setting the where they were, and where they are now.
Or even, a sort of "A Day in their lives" type of issue, as one of those single issues bridging the arcs.
I think I'm gonna remain neutral. Mecha Dawn could've been a jump-the-shark moment, but they made it work. I've learned to trust Joss as a storyteller; I don't think the man's flawless or anything, but most every time I've doubted him, I've come to eat my words. So I cannot wait to see how this plays out, and Jo's cover is beautiful. What, did we expect it not to be?

Dana5140, I agree that speculation is what these things are meant to incite, but I still think it's too early to say that Centaur Dawn is an easy solution to Giant Dawn. I highly doubt that Joss is just gonna turn her into a centaur and then possibly something else without eventually exposing the meaning behind it.
To speculate is one thing. It's what I did with the "thricewise" explanation. But to actually say, based on a cover, that it's absolutely going to be meaningless crap, is not to speculate. It's to judge. Before it happens. And that's just silly behavior in my humble opinion. Knowing the previous works of Joss, I'm pretty confident that Dawn turning into a Centaur very well could turn out to be meaningful, emotionally resonant or at the very least awesome. Not saying it absolutely will, I'll know when I read it, but saying that it's impossible is just childish. He's pulled it off before. I learned my lesson when I came to understand that a title like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" does not necessarily mean mindless fluff.

Don't judge a book by its cover. Isn't that what they say?
Cover is awesome, as usual. Chen did an EXCELLENT likeness of Dracula, in my opinion.
One of the inconsistencies in Buffy's characterization. At first glance, Buffy is a low-tech heroine - not good with: computers, cars, guns, etc. But really good with rocket launchers. How do you explain that?

1. She's not good at driving. It's funny, and lets the character be not always masterful at all physical skills.
2. She doesn't generally like guns or want to use them.
3. With the exception of #2, if something can be used to damage an adversary in combat, she's really good at making that happen. This includes rocket launchers, RVs aimed at cavalry, inviso-guns, various medieval weaponry, a bag full of heavy stuff, and whatever's handy. Whether or not she could successfully drive the RV from point A to B is a different question.
Willow was also capable of time travels at some way - “The Wish”
There isn’t a little difficult to Dru stay with Harth, sinceall the demons/Magic were banished from earth at some point. This probable means she was killed or send to a different dimension. Or maybe she is in HelLA and the Fang Gang came back moments after the baniment – No my lame lack of imagination.

I guess Angel jumped the shark when that burger talked to Wesley.
I Love the burger demon/prophet!

I really hope that in future we gat that “Mr. Fusion” from “Back to The Future” as fuel, but till then we could use some ethanol and public transport :)

And Dawn Centaur it's strange (usualy mythological female figures are more like mermaids - half woman half bird/fish) but the art is great.
Dana, the problem is the comic form is the only one Joss can afford to use to continue this universe. No more TV seasons, and let's face it, no movie ever, at least with this cast and in the next, let's say, five years. What forms are left ? Books ? Joss doesn't seem inclined to write in any other medium than script, unfortunately. Doesn't seem to me there were any forms available except comics, which Joss loves and I think writes very well. I don't know what comics you read, but I read a lot, trust me, mainly DC, so I cannot really talk about Marvel, and only Morrison's Batman is up there with Season 8, in terms of scope, themes and layers. This is my opinion, of course. For me, if Buffy the show was 100, this comic is 85-90, and I really only miss the actors' performances. If you read comics for a long time, you should know that what you're not satisfied with is not Season 8's fault, it's every comic's. All floppies are this short, no exception. Not Joss' choice. It simply is the nature of the beast. I don't love movies because IMO there is no satisfying arc for the characters, I prefer drawn-out evolutions, but if there were a Buffy flick I wouldn't rant the progressions that would normally take a season on TV in a 2-hour movie would necessarily ben speeded up. Perceptions need to be adjusted according to the medium's qualities and limits.
There can't be, not when you have 22 pages per issue to tell a story and advance a plot, focus on 6 different major characters, etc.


There absolutely CAN be, give Joss a little time to master the medium.
I hate Drusilla being brought back like this only to be wasted in the arc with no Angel and Spike. Come on, she belongs over there, with those guys! *sulk*
I'm still clinging to the hope it might be Amy who time-travelled. But seems like it's Dru after all, and that might mean she'll never cross-over to Angel's. *more sulk*.

And Dawn the Giant Horse? (or a little horse, whatever) Eww. She's creepy and she's, like, naked. And has to, like, stay that way? Huh.
Dawn Centaur? Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! I like the left-field way Joss thinks. Oh, and no way Dawn's become a male centaur (i.e. look at Jo's rendering and tell me that's a MALE with a straight face).

By the way, centaurs are never naked. They always have their body fur and strategically placed hair.

As for the "I don't get comics" crowd, I'm sorry. We're serving pudding today. If you don't like pudding, tough. This is what we have. Either exercise a little imagination and let your brain fill in the voices and the in-between frames, or don't let the screen door hit you on the way out. Just don't dissuade Joss from continuing his story, which the rest of us are completely enjoying the hell out of.

Joss, you are STILL the man!

[ edited by quantumac on 2008-06-06 17:28 ]
I love Jo Chen's cover... and I love horsey Dawn.
ZG- I read Justice League, Promethea, Y, WitchBlade, Runaways, , Anita Blake and a few others. I collect Silver Age DC, mostly JLA. I understand that this is all there is; it just ain't the same even so. I get that. And gmo, I honestly did not see anyone saying that the story was crap based on what they saw on the cover. I think some were saying the story so far might be crap and their view of the cover adds to that. I do not think Dawn's change is meaningless, I just think it raises the possibility that she can change as the story dictates, sort of deus ex machina or shapeshift ex machina.

Well, it is off to a week of training in evidence-based medicine at McMaster University in Canada. In and out when possible for me.
I hate Drusilla being brought back like this only to be wasted in the arc with no Angel and Spike.


I think she would be wasted in AtF, so we all have our opinions :). Its nice to see her play off of them, but the girl can stand on her own without that pair o' nancy boys )and their hair gel!). More Dru wherever we get her is fine by me, though.
Dana5140 said:

But Korkster, definitely is definitely spelled definitely and not definately. :-) As long as we are talking abut spelling.


Well, my apologies, Dana. In heated discussion, I forgot to spell check everything before I posted. I didn't see Perseo or BCM get slack for their mis-spellings. Now that I've wasted my time looking for that "definately" that I spelled wrong, I noticed that my comments re: rocket launcher and comic medium were overlooked. Thankfully, Perseo was able to post an opinion that I agree with. It's not like I don't try to spell, but when did that become the subject of the thread?


As for Centaur Dawn, well, I agree with newcj; I'd love to see some focus on the characters we love, without all this frippery. And I hate to say this, but this comic is not how awesome Buffy can be. It's just a comic, without anywhere near the resonance of the TV show. Just because it is all that there is, is no reason to think that it is more than it is. Or something like that. :-)
Dana5140 | June 06, 03:28 CET


*my emphasis*

I think the expectations of what the comic book "is/is not" is the problem the fans are having. I didn't expect anything from the comic book, and yet I have something enjoyable to read once a month with some of my favorite characters. I didn't watch Buffy when it was on air (wasn't exposed), and I find that the DVD viewing are more rich to me than waiting once a week (in general). If I had just viewed one episode, like the Beer one, I might not waste my time coming back. For those of you who went week to week on anxiety of wondering where this is all going, kudos. My feeling is that once the Season 8 package is complete, we'll be more positive about it.

I also agree that the comments in this thread aren't really speculation, but more judgement (on both sides, myself included) and placing of our own opinions and anxieties. I think The Londinium Sun was the only person who looked up centaur to figure out possible meanings this could have for Dawn.

I also agree with zeitgeist on 2 parts (perhaps the universe is contracting towards implosion).

1) Comic books are a new medium for Joss. The characters he's written were meant for the screen, with actors (particularly TV; the movie Buffy was re-created). Once he's given more time to figure out how to translate TV characters to comics, I think we'll all be happier for it. (I'm already happy, but could move towards blissful.) Besides, we know that he's working on Dollhouse at the moment, as well as finishing up Dr. Horrible. Joss may be able to juggle many things at one time, but I know I've seen balls being dropped from before. I can see how things may get fuzzy during this time.

2) I enjoy Drusilla. A lot. But on Buffy & Angel, she was always the "side-kick", loosely stated. She was given power (Kendra, bringing back Darla), but would releash the role of power to someone else (Spike, Darla). I'd like to see her shine on her own for a while, see what the crazy she can really do. We always knew she was special. It's time to find out. :)
Korky- I was joshing there- see the smiley face and the fact I got to repeat "definitely" three times in a row? :-)

But you also raise a worry I have- Dollhouse and how it may cut into Joss' time with the comic. He can only do so much. And who knows how in the end any of us might perceive the comic? Heck, I freely admit I could really love this if down the road Tara returns. Then I'll be sitting here supporting authorial intent! :-) and ;-)

Okay, off for the plane now.
Dana5140, I'm going to laugh if you miss your plane to post on Whedonesque.

Of course, it would just remind me of how captivated I am by this darn site. Years of a flea have been wasted reading and posting. I love the information here, but what do I care what people say? I have no idea, just that I do.

Psst. It's Korki, BTW. My mom thought it would be funny if she could complicate my life. Consider it a success.
So Dawn has graduated from being a Real Woman (and therefore in danger; see Jenny, Joyce, Tara, Anya, and Fred) to being a Fake Man like Buffy (thinks with her fists) Willow (abuser) and Kennedy (player) and thus being safe.

Good for Dawnie!!!!!
"As for the "I don't get comics" crowd, I'm sorry. We're serving pudding today. If you don't like pudding, tough. This is what we have. Either exercise a little imagination and let your brain fill in the voices and the in-between frames, or don't let the screen door hit you on the way out. Just don't dissuade Joss from continuing his story, which the rest of us are completely enjoying the hell out of.

So does your copping this kind of an attitude make it that someone can tell you to go pound salt?

We are well aware that pudding is being served today. Many of us had reservations about whether we liked pudding because we had only tasted it now and then and had not been impressed. However, lots of our friends said it was the greatest thing since jello and it was the only diary based product available...and we love our diary. So we tryed it, and tryed it. We've been eating it for more than a year because we love dairy, but it just ain't doing it for us.

So according to you, we are slackers who just aren't using our imaginations enough with the implication that we are lazy. Did you ever think that one can use a ton of imagination and simply not have an emotional connection with pictures on a page that tell a small fragment of a story once a month? Everyone's mind works differently. That is one reason there are so many artistic media. IMO, to slam people who are trying to like and understand something you love, but are having a difficult time, is not productive. I have no doubt I have many things that I love that you would not connect to no matter how much imagination you used. I can assure you that if you were willing to give it a chance once a month for a year, I would be more respectful of your comments and frustrations than to tell you something like what you did above.

As far as us dissuading Joss from continuing the story, please, besides that not seeming to be the intention of any of the posters, none of us is that powerful. Joss will do what he wants within his power, as he should.

Oh, and quite honestly there may very well be some of those "I don't get comics" people who are trying to be kind to Joss by assuming that it is the medium and not S8 itself that they are not enjoying.
The first issue of Fray came out in 2001, so the world of comic books is not totally new to Joss.
And now I am in the airport stuck for a while due to severe storms that have hit Chicago and Detroit- which is where I am flying to- my folks live in the 'burbs there, and I am driving to Hamilton from Detroit (3 hours) so that on Friday next week I can drive back for a family affair (my niece's bat mitzvah). But hey, at least Moline has free wireless!

As to Korki's tiny text, listen, I understand. I spent my life as Dana, a guy, with a sister named Jemmis. Weird names runs in our family.

Okay, back to the thread now...

ETA after Simon's comment, also Astonishing X-Men, Runaways and Tales of the Slayer, in addition to Buffy. It ain't new to him.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-06-06 22:35 ]
I'm not sure why a centaur is any worse than a giant. Actually, for me, I think the reverse is true. I like the the mythic connotations of the Dawnotaur. As a lover of fables both new and old, it just comes down to story for me. I'm willing to wait for the comic to come out before I make any judgments on its content.

And I do love that cover.
newcj, I like your sense of humor. That "dairy" part made me smile, even though we're on opposite sides of the trench.

Dana5140, glad to see I'm not the only one. I'll save my brother's name for a later thread. Sorry about the weather, BTW.

Simon, okay, so Joss isn't new. Maybe he just sucks at this medium? *crickets* Or he's not-as-experienced-as-others? TV is his forte? Alright, I'm sorry. Joss is the man and anything he gives us is pure jenius. (The spelling is on purpose, everyone. Please don't remind me on how to spell genius; jenius works better.)

I'm looking for more centaur news, but there doesn't seem to be much. A lot of strange things out there (I didn't know there were fanatics about the subject), but no actual facts, literary myths (besides what was already mentioned), or anything.
I find centaur Dawn intriguing. Yes, my first reaction was "huh?", but also "hmm..." I'm curious how this will fit in the story. And curiousity is a mighty hook. I have no doubt that this will eventually make sense. Just let the story unfold.

To people who are having difficulty getting into the comics, perhaps waiting for the TPB would help. For some it might just be more difficult to connect the story together or get into it with a month between issues.

But, if you can't get into it, then you can't get into it. There's really nothing anyone can do about it. If you've given it almost a full year, then at least you tried. I won't hold it against you if you stop trying.

But if you willingly continue to consume a medium you don't like month after month, yes I will hold it against you...'cause no one's making you eat it. You don't have to be a follower and continue eating something you don't like just 'cause other people are enjoying it.

I think Joss is doing very well with this medium. The first arch felt a little awkward to me with the way it was written because it kept jumping from scene to scene the way a TV episode does. I think it's flowing quite well now.

Joss isn't writing every issue. He's overseeing them, but we've had BKV and Drew writing too. I think Joss does better when he concentrates on a few characters...as in "The Chain", "Anywhere But Here" and "A Beautiful Sunset".
Korkster, I doroly tscheched my posts and der ware know spelling miztakes:-)
korkster, glad I could be of service. The trench makes no particular difference to me, only what the person is saying.

But if you willingly continue to consume a medium you don't like month after month, yes I will hold it against you...'cause no one's making you eat it. You don't have to be a follower and continue eating something you don't like just 'cause other people are enjoying it.

So you *want* people to stop buying the comic who are not enjoying it but are buying it month after month with hope in their hearts that this month will be the month that they connect with it? You want them to stop helping to keep the sales figures high and stop giving Joss more clout by being known as someone who can sell stuff to his fans even if they are living in a box and haven't eaten in a week? Seems counter productive to having the comic a sure thing to continue, but then everybody has different priorities. If I were loving this comic I honestly would not care why people were buying it, I would just want them to keep buying so I would be sure to get mine. Some would call it self-centered, I call it practical. ;-)

I was going to stop buying them a while ago, but there were discussions on Whedonesque, and I wanted to see what people were talking about, and it was BtVS, and I didn't hate it or anything, so I'd give it one more arc, and so it went. (A friend of mine has been doing the same thing.) Even now, I had a passing thought when someone said Fray is next, that I should buy that one. But I slapped down the thought. (Bad thought!)

I'll read the threads and the reports and maybe I'll get the TPB down the road. I have even thought that it would be best to wait until S8 is totally done and get the TPBs then so I can read the whole thing at one time. This plan has the extra added feature that people that don't like hearing any negative opinions concerning Joss's work and specifically the comics, will have one less voice to annoy them on these threads.
It occurs to me that I haven't commented on th Jeanty/Vines cover yet!

The facial expressions on both Fray and Buffy are priceless. Neither of them has any experience with flying cars.

Buffy, 'cause she's from the past, and not skilled in regular autos.

Fray, 'cause she's terminally poor and usually gets around clinging to the outside of air-vehicles.

On top of that: the cover is dynamic enough, and character-based enough, to draw in new readers. It's a really nice cover is what I mean to say TYPE.
newcj: People who don't like comics could stop buying, or they could simply buy it and not read it and just collect instead.

The comics will continue because they're good, not because it's Joss. Joss is successful because he is good at what he does and enough people think he is good. His success is not because he has enough fans who will buy crappy work.

I'm not annoyed because I don't like hearing any negative comments about Joss's work. I'm not some lemming that automatically likes whatever he puts out. You however are buying what he puts out even though you don't like it. Think about it.

Until February of 2007 I had only ever watched one episode of Buffy. I wasn't a rabid Joss fan until after I started reading the comics. For some people the comics were the gateway to the Whedonverse. I was just thrilled that there was going to be a new female-centered comic that wasn't absolute rubbish. I caught up with the series storyline so I could follow the comics.

You want them to stop helping to keep the sales figures high and stop giving Joss more clout by being known as someone who can sell stuff to his fans even if they are living in a box and haven't eaten in a week? Seems counter productive to having the comic a sure thing to continue, but then everybody has different priorities.

I am annoyed by the negative opinions about the comics by people who don't even like comics or the entire comic series up to this point acting like they're doing the rest of us and Joss some sort of favor by buying it. There is no point to it now.

I can totally understand how in the beginning there were fans who were willing to check it out just because they're Joss fans. That's the benefit of having loyal fans: they're willing to try new things because it has Joss's name on it. But, if people have given it a year and still don't like it I don't see any reason for them to continue to torture themselves by reading something they don't like. I don't think it's doing anyone a favor. I don't think they're the reason the sales figures are high. The sales figures are high because of the number of people who are buying it because they actually think it's good.

I do wonder how full of yourself you really have to be to think you're the reason the comic sales are doing well and not because Joss is doing good work. People who buy crappy entertainment because of the name on it are the reason people like Paris Hilton can release an album. Joss isn't Paris Hilton. He's successful because he actually has talent. And he has enough talent that even though he cannot please 100% of his fans 100% of the time, he can please enough fans enough of the time and gain new fans with each new venture to remain successful.

It is a sure thing that the comics will continue with or without you buying it.
OK, calling a halt to this particular discussion which is going nowhere and turning unpleasant. Take that to e-mail, if you'd like, and let's talk about the content of Season 8 in this forum. Thanks.
That's fine with me, SNT. Unfortunately the ball is in GrrrlRomeos court on that one because she does not have an e-mail address posted. If she would like to send me hers, I would be happy to privately discuss some of the issues we have had lately and hopefully come to some sort of understanding.
I appreciate that, newcj. Understanding is good, even if the understanding is merely to agree to disagree.
Uhmm...I made my email public a few minutes after SNT's first post. And then I went to the Hard Rock Theme Park. If it's still not showing it's grrrlromeo at gmail.

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